 Hey everyone, welcome back to Las Vegas. TheCube is on our fourth day of covering AWS re-invent live from the Venetian Expo Center. There, this week has been amazing. We've created a ton of content, as you know, because you've been watching. But there's been north of 55,000 people here, hundreds of thousands online. We've had amazing conversations across the AWS ecosystem. Lisa Martin, Paul Gillan, Paul, what's your kind of take on day four of the conference? It's still highly packed. Oh, it's still, there's lots of people here. Unusual for the final day of a conference. I think Werner Folkes, as I, if I'm pronouncing it right, kicked things off today when he talked about asymmetry and how the world is, you know, asymmetric. We built symmetric software because it's convenient to do so, but asymmetric software actually scales and evolves much better. And that was a conversation starter for a lot of what people are talking about here today, which is how the cloud changes the way we think about building software. Absolutely does. Our next guest, Holger Mueller is, that's one of his key areas of focus. And Holger, welcome, thanks for joining us on theCUBE. Thanks for having me. What did you take away from the keynote this morning? Well, how do you feel on the final day of the marathon, right? We're like at 23, 24 miles, hit the wall yesterday, right? We are going strong, Holger. And of course, you guys, we can either talk about business transformation with cloud or the World Cup. Oh, we can do both. We're down the World Cup. Germany's out, I'm unbiased now. They just got eliminated. What's your check for the US? Spain is out now. What will the US do against Netherlands tomorrow? What's your forecast? The US will win? Two to one. What do you say? Two one? I'm optimistic, but realistic. Three? I think Netherlands will win. Netherlands will win? Two to one. Okay, I'll root for the US. Two, three, one for the US. Okay, root for the US. We are optimistic. Okay, I like that. We'll hope for the best. Tomorrow, you'll see how much soccer it's meant to be. If your prediction was right. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yours was right, right? Cool. Biggest event of the year again, right? Not yet the 70,000 we had in 2019, but it's great to have the energy. I've never seen the show floor going all the way down like this, right? I've never seen that. I think it's a record. Often vendors get the space here and they have the keynote area and the entertainment area and the food area and then there's the exposition, right? This is packed. You don't see the big, empty booths that you often see. Exactly, you know the white spaces and so on. It's a good thing. It's lots of energy, which is great. And today is, of course, the developer day, like we said before, when our focus is a rock star in the developer community, right? Revered visionary on what has been built, right? And he's becoming a little professorial is my feeling, right? He had this moments before too, and it was justifying our AWS moved off the Oracle Database about the importance of data warehouse and structures and why DynamoDB is better and so on. But he had a large part of this too. And this is coming right across the keynotes, right? Adam Slipsky talking about Antarctica, right? Scott against Amunds and what went wrong. He didn't tell us, by the way, often the tech winners will get Scott banked on technology. He had motorized slats, which failed after three miles. So that's not the story to tell the technology. Let everything down. Everybody went back to ponies and hoists. No, maybe it goes back to asynchronous behavior or the way of nature. And yesterday, Swami talking about the bridges, right, the root bridges, right? So how could Werner pick up with his video at the beginning and then talking about space and other things? So I think it's important to educate about event-based architecture, right? And we see this massive transformation, modern software has to be event-based, right? Because that's how things work. And we didn't think like this before. I see this massive transformation in my other research area, not the platforms, but the HR space, where payrolls are being rebuilt completely. And payroll used to be one of the three peaks of ERP, right? You would size your ERP machine before the cloud to financial close, to run the payroll, and to do an MRP manufacturing run of your manufacturing. God forbid you run those free at the same time. Your machine wouldn't be able to do that, right? So it was like, start the engine, start the booster as we are running payroll. And now the modern payroll designs, like you see from ADP or from Siridian, they're taking every payroll relevant event. You check in, time-wise, right? You go over time. You take a day of vacation. And right away, they trigger and run the payroll so it's up to date for you, up to your view. Which in this economy is super important because we have more gig workers, we have more contractors, we have employees who are leaving suddenly, right? The great resignation which is happening. So from that perspective, it's the modern way of building software. So it's great to see Rana showing that. The dirty little secrets, though, that is more efficient software for the cloud platform vendor, too. Takes less resources, gets less committed things. So it's a much more scalable architecture. You can move the events, you can work as synchronously much better. And the biggest showcase, right? What's the biggest transactional showcase for an eventually consistent as a synchronous transactional application? I know it's a mouthful, but we are at Amazon, AWS, Amazon, right? You buy something on Amazon, they tell you it's gonna come tomorrow. They don't know it's gonna come tomorrow by that time because it's not transactionally consistent, right? We're just making every year a P-vendor who lives in transactional world having nightmares, of course. But for them, it's like, yes, we have the delivery to promise, the promise to do that, right? But they come back to you and say, sorry, we couldn't make it, delivery didn't work, and so on, it's gonna be a new day. We are out of a product, right? So these kind of event-based, as synchronous things are more and more what's gonna scale around the world. It's gonna be efficient for everybody. It's gonna be better customer experience, better employee experience, ultimately better user experience. It's gonna be better for the enterprise to build, but we have to know how to build it. So the big announcement was the builder environment to build better eventful applications from today. Talk about, this is the first re-invent, well, actually, I'm sorry, it's the second re-invent under Adam Sillips' game. Adam Sillips, yeah. But it's first year, we're hearing a lot of momentum. What's your takeaway with what he delivered with the direction Amazon is going, their vision? Yeah, I think compared to the Jassy times, right? We didn't see the hockey stick slide, right? With a number of innovations and releases that was done in 2019 too, right? So I think it's a more pedestrian pace, which ultimately is good for everybody because it means that when software vendors go slower, they do less width, but more depth. Depth is what customers need. So Amazon's building more on the depth side, which is good news. I also think, and that's not official, right? But Adam Sillips came from Tableau, right? So he's a BI analytics guy. So it's no surprise we have free data like offerings, right? Security data lake, we have a healthcare data lake, and we have a supply chain data lake, right? Where all, again, the AP vendors who mentioned them are saying, oh my God, Amazon's coming to supply chain, but it's actually data lakes, which is an interesting part. But I think it's not a surprise that someone who comes heavily out of the analytics BI world, on the software side, if I was pitching internally to him, maybe I'd do something which he's familiar with. And I think that's what you see in the major announcing of his keynote on Tuesday. Yeah, I mean, speaking of analytics, one of the big announcements early on was Amazon was trying to bridge the gap between Aurora and Redshift, and setting up for continuous pipelines, continuous integration. Seems to be a trend that is common to all database players. I mean, Oracle is doing the same thing, SAP is doing the same thing, MariaDB. Do you see the distinction between transactional and analytical databases going away? It's coming together, right? Certainly coming together from that perspective, but there's a fundamental different starting point, right? And I was a big idea part, right? The universal database, which does everything for you in one system, whereas the suite of specialized databases, right? Oracle is one of the classic Oracle databases in the universal database camp. On the other side, you have Amazon, which built a database. This is one of the first few Amazon re-invents as my 10th, where there was no new database announced. So it was always add another one. I think they have enough. It's a great approach, they have enough, right? So it's a great approach to build something quick, which Amazon is all about. It's not so great when customers want to leverage things, and ultimately, which I think with Salipsky, AWS waking up to the enterprise saying, I have all this different database, and what is in them matters to me. So how can I get this better? So no surprise, between the two most popular databases, Aurora and RDS, they're bringing together the data with some out-of-the-box parts. I think it's kind of like silly when Swami's saying, hey, no ETL. There shouldn't be an ETL from the same vendor, right? There should be data pipes from that perspective anyway. So it looks like on the overall value proposition database side, AWS is moving closer to the universal database on the Oracle side, right? Because if you lift, of course, the universal database under the hood, you see, well, there's different database there, different part there, you do something there, you have to configure stuff, which is also the case, but it's one part of it, right? So with that shift, talk about the value that's going to be in it for customers, regardless of industry. Well, the value for customers is great because when software vendors, platform vendors go in depth, you get more functionality, you get more maturity, you get easier ways of setting up the whole things, you get more ways of maintaining things, and you ultimately get low TCO to build them. It is super important for enterprise because here, this is the developer cloud, right? Developers love AWS. Developers are scarce, expensive, might not be one to work for you, right? So developer velocity, getting more done with the same amount of developers, getting less developers getting more, is super crucial, super important. So this is all good news for enterprise, banking on AWS, and then providing them more efficiency, more automation out of the box. Some of your customer conversations this week, talk to us about some of the feedback. What's the common denominator amongst customers right now? Customers are excited. First of all, like first event again in person, large, right? People can travel, people meet each other, meet in person. They have a good handle around the complexity, which used to be a huge challenge in the past because people said, do I do this? I know so many CXOs are saying, yeah, I want to build, say, something in IoT with AWS. The first reference, build it like this. The next reference, build it completely different. The third one, build it completely different again. So now I'm doubting if my team has the skills to build things successfully because will they be smart enough like your team? Because there's no repetitiveness, and that repetitiveness is gonna be very important for AWS to come up with some higher packaging and version numbers, right? But customers like the depth message. They like that things are working better together. They're not missing the big announcement, right? One of the traditional things of AWS would be, and they made it even proud as system Jesse was saying this. We look at the IT spend, and we see something which is like high margin for us and not served well, and we announce something there, right? So quick side of work spaces where all these items where AWS went after traditional IT spent and had an offering. We haven't had this in 2019. We didn't have it in 2020 last year and didn't have it now. So something is changing on the AWS that's a little bit too early to figure out what, but they're not chewing off as many big things as they used in the past. Right. Did you get the sense? Keith Townsend from the CTO advisor was on earlier, and he said he's been to many reinvents as you have, and he said that he got the sense that this is Amazon's chance to do a victory lap, as he called it, that this is a way for Amazon to reinforce the leadership cloud and really kind of establish that nobody can come close to that. Nobody can compete with that. I don't think that's at all. I mean, love Keith is a great guy, but I think that's the mindset at all, right? So, I mean, Jesse was always saying it's still the morning of the day in the cloud, right? They're far away from being done. They're obsessed about being right. They do more with analysts. We think we got something right and I like the passion from that perspective. So I think Amazon's far from being complacent. And the area which is the biggest bit, right? The biggest, the only thing where Amazon truly has thundered, it always thundered is the AI space, right? So 2018, Ben Affogles was doing more technical stuff that, oh, this is all about linear regression, right? And Amazon didn't start to put algorithms on silicon, right? And they have a three, four trail and that didn't announce anything new here behind Google who's been doing this for much, much longer with the TPU platform. So, they're keenly aware. They now have three, or they have two of their own hardware platforms for AI. They support the Intel platform. They seem to be catching up in that area. It's very hard to catch up on hardware, right? Because there's release cycles, right? And there's the volume they're just talking about the largest models that we have right now to do with our language models. And Google is just doing a side note of saying, oh, we supported 50 less or 30 less, not a little spoken languages, which I've never even heard of because they're underbanked and under supported and here's a language model, right? And I think it's all about a little bit the organizational DNA of a company. I'm a strong believer in that. And if you remember, Amazon comes, AWS comes from the retail side, right? Their rollout of data centers follows the retail strategy, open secret, right? But the same thing as the scale of the AI is very, very different than if you take a look over at Google where it makes sense of the internet, right? The scale right away is the solution which is a good solution for some on the DNA of an AWS. Also, Microsoft Azure is good there, has no chance to even get off the ship of that at Google, right? And this lead is with Google and it's not getting smaller, right? We didn't hear anything, I mean, so much focused on data. Why do they focus so much on data? Because data is the first step for AI. If AWS was doing a victory lab, data would have been done. They would own data, right? They would have a competitor to BigQuery Omni from the Google side to get data from the different clouds. There's crickets on that topic, right? So I think they know that they're catching up on the AI side, but it's really, really hard. It's not like in software you can't acquire someone. They could acquire Nvidia, right? But that's not a good idea, right? So you can't, there's no shortcuts on the hardware side. As much as I'm a software guy and love software and don't like hardware, it's always a pain, right? There's no shortcuts there. And there's nothing which I think gets a new, new attenuum instance. Of course, certainly, but they're not catching up. The distance is the same, yep. One of the things is funny. One of our guests, I think it was Tuesday. It was, it was right after Adam's keynote. Said that Adam Slipsky stood up and on stage and talked about data for 52 minutes. It was timed, 52 minutes. Huge emphasis on that. One of the things that Adam said to John Furrier when they were able to sit down a week or so ago in an event preview was that CIOs and CEOs are not coming to Adam to talk about technology. They want to talk about transformation. They want to talk about business transformation. Talk to me in our last couple of minutes about what CEOs and CEOs are coming to you saying, Holger, help us figure this out. We have to transform the business. So we advise, I'm going to quote our friends at Gardner. One's the Type A company. So we'll use technology aggressively, right? So take everything in the audience of a grain of salt. It's not the followers of the laggards and so on. So for them, it's really the cusp of doing AI, right? Getting that data together. It has to be in the cloud. We live in the era of infinite computing. The cloud makes computing infinite, both from a storage, from a compute perspective, from an AI perspective, and then define new business models and create new best practices on top of that. Because in the past, everything was finite on premise, right? We talked about the appeasement size. Now in the cloud, it's just the business model to say, do I want to have a little more AI? Do I want to run a little more? Will it give me the insight in the business? So that's the transformation that is happening really. So bringing your data together, this is like conversation data, but not for bringing the data together. There's often a big win for the business for the first time to see the data. AWS is banking on that with the supply chain product, as an example. So many disparate systems bringing them together. Big win for the business. But the win for the business ultimately is when you change the paradigm from the user showing up to do something, to software doing stuff for us, right? We have too much in this operator paradigm. If the user doesn't show up, doesn't find the click, doesn't find where to go, nothing happens. It can't be done in the 21st century, right? Software has to look over your shoulder, understand the one for you, autonomous self-driving systems. That's what CXOs were future looking when we talked to Comfort to AWS and all the other cloud partners. Got it. Last question for you. We're making a sizzle reel on Instagram. If you had like a phrase, like a 30 second pitch that would describe, reinvent 2022 in the direction the company's going, what would that elevator pitch say? 30 second pitch. Yeah. AWS is doing well, is providing more depth, less breadth, making things work together, is catching up in some areas. It has some interesting offerings like the healthcare offering, the security later lake offering, which might change some things in the industry. It's staying the course and it's going strong. Beautifully said, Holger. Thank you so much for joining Paul and me. Might have been too short. I don't know. 10 seconds left over. Absolutely perfect. Thanks for having me. Perfect sizzle reel. We appreciate your insights, what you're seeing this week in the direction the company is going. We can't wait to see what happens in the next year. Thanks for having me. And of course you've been on so many times, we know we're going to have you back. Forwarded. Thank you. For Holger Muller and Paul Gillen, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage.