 This is Will Spencer from the Renaissance of Men with the new 21 Report and Jack Donovan. How you doing, Jack? All right. Good to see you. Good to see you. How are you enjoying, what number, what number 21 convention is this for you? I actually don't know. I'm not great at math. And so I, I've been here a lot of times. A lot of times. Yeah. How have you enjoyed this version compared to the other lot of times you've been here? I mean, it's different every time. I mean, I remember it was a very different vibe a few years ago. But, you know, we've also done it in Poland. So we've done it in a foreign country. We've done it here. Last year, I just came for fun, just to hang out. And, you know, this time, obviously, and every time I'm doing a different kind of presentation. So, you know, the focus is a little bit different. And, you know, I'm a different guy every time, you know, like I step in the water, you're the water is different, you're different every time. And so it's a little bit like that. But it's like, it's, it's always a good conference. And I've been here so many times that a lot of these guys are my friends. And so that's, that's, that's always fun. What have you noticed has been different about this year's convention versus previous years? Well, we're just talking about this in the hall, actually. And it was that there was really no, there's no drama. Oh, wow. There was no drama. There was no one who was, we were just talking about it like the most anxious member of the group. You know, there wasn't anyone circled around this. This is the problem happening over here. There was no problems. Everybody was just really, we're really working together and really working together and really enjoying each other's company. And there was nothing really like, oh, this drama is happening over here, or, you know, any kind of thing like that. So that was, that's always nice. Everybody's focus is in the same direction. Did you have any interaction with the women or the speakers from 22 convention? I did not. No, no, no, at all. Any thoughts on the 22 convention in general? No, I mean, I mean, it's, it's an interesting thing that Anthony's doing. And I'm glad that women showed up and that they're, you know, having a good experience. And obviously, I've not heard really anything bad coming out of that. And so that's pretty positive. Cool. And yeah, you spoke at the 21 convention, leave us yesterday. What was your talk about? I was talking about my, my book, Fire in the Dark. And presenting, I almost thought of it as doing a college class on Fire in the Dark. Or, you know, Fire in the Dark 101 day one, talking about a broad overview, a broad overview by Professor Jack Donovan. Because it's, as you know, I mean, I know you've read the book and it's a fairly dense material. So I get to talk a lot about a lot of, you know, going to etymology words, going to like all kinds of different gods, because it's a book that really has a lot of comparative mythology in it. And so, if you're not familiar with all the content, there would be a lot of content, like what is this Celtic God and what is this Mesopotamian what, and you know, Egyptian gods and so forth. So it was, you know, there's a lot of content there to try and make it simple enough so that people here and on YouTube and whatever can understand it in me was a challenge. But, you know, I wanted to give, you know, the best explanation, because I don't actually get to teach college classes. So this is the best that I get. So I wanted to give it a try. Simple enough for people on YouTube to get it. It's pretty simple. Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, but not TikTok. Fire in the Dark in 15 seconds. So how was the process of writing this book different from your previous process was from a way of men becoming a barbarian, a more complete beast? How did Fire in the Dark differ in the way that you prepare to write this book or the writing of the book itself? Well, as I was writing it throughout the process, one of the things was, you know, like, about halfway through, I'm like, well, I could really use a PhD and compare to religion right about now. Just because there's so much material and going through it and trying to make sure that I'm getting everything right and making sense of everything. I mean, I'm, you know, speaking in other languages and then making everything make sense. So every book, you know, I don't know who said it, but someone said that, you know, like a man writing a book is the closest he can get to childbirth. And it is every time I hate it. And it's a long, arduous process of because you're really challenging yourself intellectually, you're starting at one place and moving to another place. And because you have to leave yourself open to discover things along the way. So I started to write a book about Odin, Thor and Frey in this Germanic way. And then it became a really interesting project of looking at all the masculine archetypes and all the gods from all the different religions that I could have access to. I didn't go into Asian gods and so forth, because I just don't know enough about them. But, you know, all the New European pantheons and, you know, kind of, you know, almost putting them in, you know, like columns like this one's, you know, associated with this and this one's associated with this and this one's associated with that. And like, and then, you know, putting them all together. And, you know, what are the common themes and what makes sense, not just for, you know, their particular religions, but for what's a common theme that makes sense for all men. And I really think I got to let things write in this book and I'm pretty excited about it. And the more even while I was making this presentation for 21, I mean, I spent a lot of time on the actual presentation and then new things are like presenting myself to me that, you know, correspond with it. Like, obviously it's called Fire in the Dark. And, you know, making my presentation had a lot of triangles in the actual, like, composition of the keynote speech. And then I'm like, wait, isn't that an alchemical symbol? And it's actually the alchemical symbol of fire. And so just everything was lining up over and over again. So it's a great system, I think, in terms of, like, looking at mythology. Has writing this book changed your view of spirituality, mythology, or even your own life? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it definitely changed my entire frame. And change sounds like flip floppy. You know, a little bit like change sounds like, oh, well, I was this and now I'm that, or I was this and now I'm that, but it's more like an evolution. I feel like so many things that I've been writing over the years, especially, you know, I've been writing about men and masculinity for probably about 15 years, but really, as far as anyone knows, probably about 10. And I, when I was writing this book, I really feel like I've been talking about the same things over and over and over again in a more refined and perfected way. You know, one of the things I went to with Fire in the Dark is I started out with, in The Way of Man, the concept of perimeter. And really Fire in the Dark draws on that. And I feel like it's the best compliment to The Way of Man in the sense of it takes the idea of the perimeter and, you know, creating a space that is safe and ordered. And, you know, how do you sustain that space? And then building that out into a concept of like, well, what is sacred? And what is important to men? And what did what ideals do they need to do that job of maintaining that space for as long as possible? So it's, it brings it, you know, full circle for me. You know, so, you know, I started out with one idea, and now I have the same idea only in a deeper sense, you know, so. Talk a little bit about solar idealism. Solar idealism. It's, I started out a few years ago, and I started it, you know, from things I was doing before, I was looking for something what's more light, you know, what's more positive. Rather than, because there's so many guys in the world who are just angry. And they're angry about what's wrong in the world. And I get that. And I understand all their complaints. I've heard all their complaints, and I probably have half of them, or maybe three quarters, or maybe 80%. And so we share the same complaints, but the complaints aren't enough. You need a positive ideal to move to. And, you know, I was thinking, but what does that mean? And, you know, rather than being angry, this kind of dark mentality, what does it mean to move more towards light? And what is, what is positive? And the best symbol for that is really the sun. I mean, it has a gravitational pull that brings order. And the concept of order became very important to me because of that. And I started moving toward saying this slogan, stay solar. And it became really, you know, it kind of took off in its own way because it's what people needed to hear. I have a good antenna for that. That's kind of my one of my superpowers is I feel like I feel things a little bit before people feel them and put them out there sometimes at the right time, but usually just too early. And so that's a curse, but they picked it up. And a lot of people started saying stay solar. And I like that because the idea, especially with all the bad things happened in the world. And this was even before the new bad things, the new normals happened. But, you know, there are so many things to be angry about. And, you know, what do the best men really do? The men that you really look up to, they're not just angry all the time and kicking rocks and like being combative about everything, you know, they're trying to create something. And they're trying to pull things into order around them like the sun does. And in any man, we can see with so many men at this conference, the men who are truly magnetic, they have a gravitational pull and they'll walk with like five or six men walking around them all the time because they have so much to offer. And so much, you know, like light to offer that they, they, people surround them naturally and they create an order wherever they go. And so that's what that idea of stay solar kind of meant to me, like, you know, A, be solar. And, you know, as the world kicks you down, as things become dark, and as, you know, problems arise to stay solar. And solar idealism really became philosophy. I gave a speech at the last 21 that I spoke at, it was called Manly Idealism. And I've, Anthony likes it, I have a kind of a habit of sketching out new books in speeches at the 21 convention. This is the first one I, this is the first time I presented a book that I had already written. But I sketched it out in the last speech that I gave. I gave a speech called Manly Idealism. It was basically talking about how men need heroes and men need ideals. And a lot of the problems that we have in the world right now are that men, you were seeing ideals torn down. We're saying that there can't be the best of anything. Everything's the same. And you can't have best and worst, you can't have first and last, you can't have, you know, like, you know, everyone gets the same medal, everyone gets a participation trophy. And, you know, no one wants to say what is good and what is bad, you know, with fitness even. You know, it's okay to be, you know, fat is the same as being like, you know, healthy. And all these things are being leveled. And I think men naturally like hierarchy. They want something to be above and something to be, you know, so they have a direction to shoot for. It doesn't matter, it's misunderstood, I think by a lot of people is that the idea of hierarchy, if someone's above you, then that's supposed to be naturally hurtful to you. And you're never supposed to try to get higher or get better because you'll never be where they are. And that's not how most men think of that. And that's a really actually kind of sick way to think of the world. I mean, when I see the best athlete at something, that doesn't mean that I should never become more athletic unless I can become the gold medal winner at the Olympics or, you know, a professional athlete in some way. And that's just a terrible way to think about life and about yourself. Yeah, I find that there's a lot of talk in this community about, you know, alpha, beta, you know, discharging the negative charge from the terms just in terms of hierarchy is like, not everyone can be an alpha, you know, a leader in that way. Some men just want to belong, they're not followers, they want to belong. And sometimes it can seem in the same way like hierarchy is painted as bad because someone's over someone else. Well, there's someone that just want to participate in something and don't necessarily want to lead in that way. And I don't know if you have any thoughts about that from being here at the convention. Yeah, I mean, I don't know about directly related to convention, but obviously, I mean, people are coming to see the speakers and they're not they're not all trying to be speakers. Yeah, you know, that that's because we have different talents, men are differently gifted. And we can do, you know, everybody has their own role to play in their own thing that they can bring to the table. And, you know, I don't expect these guys to go out and become authors or speakers. But what can they do that we really need? Because there's so many things that need to be done. I mean, whether it's, you know, in the tech realm of creating different technologies, or different, you know, facilitating the platforms that we all need. You know, we all there is a problem with platforms, obviously, and there are so many people that are needed to do that work. And, you know, not everyone has to be the talking head. You know, being a talking head is its own weird job. And that's not for everyone. But everyone can help in their own way. And so, you know, like the alpha and beta thing, I always have a kind of a problem with it, because it's like, you know, it's just a position and a hierarchy, right changes wherever you go. And not everyone's always the alpha, or very few guys are. So it's, it's not really about that packing order so much. I mean, men are aware of that. But I think, you know, a really good leader values all the people that do all the other roles that are involved in everything that they do. A good leader appreciates all that. And, you know, we're at a group of many leaders here at the 21 convention of obviously, we have guys with their entire own like audiences and their own specialties and so forth. And they all have guys who support them in some way or other. And it's because the guys believe in their message and believe in what they're doing. And sometimes those guys, like, are more, way more financially successful in some other realm of life. You know, they've, they've accomplished a great deal. Maybe they're far more educated in some like realm and they can, you know, maybe they just have something else way better going for them. But they're helping this guy do this thing because they believe in it. And so, like, again, that that alpha beta thing, like, is very, you know, it changes so much, you know, like that guy can leave here, go be the foreman of his construction site. And, you know, here he's just here to help, but he's in charge in another way. So have you gotten the chance to check out any speakers this year? Oh, yeah. I mean, I said, and I, you know, I always hide my room until I get my speech done. And that's just a thing. But obviously, I went to see Tanner because he's one of my best friends. And then I stayed up too late and I didn't go to see yours. I do apologize for that one the next morning. I was like, oh, man, I wanted to see that. It's like, I didn't wish you happy birthday. Happy birthday. Oh, well, thank you. We're just withholding the birthday. Exactly. Now that you apologize, I can wish you a happy birthday. Okay. All right. Now that we're even playing field now. Okay, cool. But and then obviously I wanted to make sure that I saw Ian Smith because Ian and I have met before and we correspond a lot. And I have a great respect for him and what he's doing and everything. And it's, you know, we're in a point in life where we need men to stand up and do heroic things. And we can say that. And I'm good at giving motivational speeches. And I can, I can say that. But, you know, people also need to do that. Yeah. And Ian's one of those guys who is doing that. And so to listen to him speak is him telling the story of this, you know, mythic struggle that he's engaged in. And there are a lot of other guys who are engaged in these mythic struggles in the same way. And in a way that's exciting. We have, we have very big monsters out there. And we have guys who are actually like doing the work to slay them. So like, you know, that's, that's exciting to me personally. And, you know, it was great to have him here and get to talk to him for a few minutes and, you know, get to see him present. And, you know, it's great to have someone like that connected to the 21 convention, you know, which, you know, some, you know, obviously the criticism of these kinds of things is like they're just for pickup artists or whatever, which that hasn't been the case at all this year. Nothing, almost nothing had to do with that at all. You know, it's more about men improving themselves. And that's why I've always liked the 21 convention. But, you know, to see have guys come to the table like that, who are actually taking action in the real world, and it not just being all about ideas and talk and whatever and, you know, bringing that back because you know what that could inspire in the future. Coming up on 10 years, the way of men, which I think is the foundational book of, you know, what we'll just broadly call the men's move into the Renaissance or whatever you want to call it, that's pretty significant. I mean, I've thought a lot about it. I think, you know, I used to say like Iron John, Way of Men were the two of the kind of put Iron John aside, because I think the way of men has had more enduring relevance to what's actually happening now. And obviously it's touched so many different corners of society. Why does it feel to look back on 10 years of, you know, I mean, magnum opus, I don't know if that's the correct word for it. But, you know, it's on something that's so significant in so many men's lives. Well, I mean, Iron John came out maybe 10 years before the Way of Men, so who knows what the next thing will be. 20 years, actually. Yeah, yeah, probably, yeah. So that one's been around and had an enduring influence as well. But I, as far as the way of men, it's just been an interesting ride. I mean, I was writing the, I'm putting out a 20th, 10th anniversary edition of The Way of Men in hardcover, and I was writing it in afterward for it. And, you know, what do I say about that? You know, after rereading it, hey, I really like it. I really still think I said the right things and they're still right. And really, if anything, they're like weirdly even more relevant today than they were then. And it's been an honor that it's been so influential in so many people and so many people quoted and so many people talk about it and use it as a foundation, as a jumping off point for other things. That's been amazing that, you know, when I read it and, you know, look at some of the, you know, spicier parts towards the end, which are not wrong. And I think that's why I had to really think about that. And I think it connected with men specifically because I was going through the same things they were. Yeah. I mean, because when I wrote The Way of Men, I was a delivery driver being paid 12, 15 hours. So I was doing all the drug tests, stand in line, do the thing that regular blue color men were having to go through and let's listen to your 10th diversity lecture and watch the video and sign off that you saw the video from HR about this and that and the other thing. And that's things that, you know, guys in, you know, we've been, you know, whatever writing books or influencing or doing whatever it is that we do for a long time and they get a little bit disconnected that, you know, like a country singer who flies in private jets, you know, we don't want to get that. But I think that book connected with people because I was exactly, you know, going through the same stuff that they were. And it's important to realize, and I see this, especially when I deal with a lot of guys who are maybe like, you know, I never know what to call them with the operator kind of guys. They've been in such a male, you know, influenced environment for their entire lives. And they, a lot of them haven't had to go through like 10,000 HR lectures and all these things and go through colleges that are teaching them to hate themselves and all these problems that men have to deal with every day. And you know, it's important to not lose sight of how much that sucks. And I can't imagine, like, how much worse it is really right now, because I'm sure it is. Yeah. I mean, I was, I mean, I was complaining about whatever was going on in 2010. Whatever these guys are going through now is so much worse. And so I think that's why like, you know, my anger at that time, and, you know, with the system, whether you just want to flip the table and let's see what happens, you know, that, that really connected with people. And so I, you know, I can see why it's still important and why people still like it. And they're like, yes, this is exactly how we feel about this. And, you know, I mean, it's hard to be able to have written something like that. And, you know, it's, you know, sometimes I feel like, you know, whatever, I something spoke through me that I was able to do that. You know, but it was very, you know, so it's been very powerful looking back on that. And, you know, just very, like I said, I just generally very honored that, you know, I got to do that. And that it's, I'm still regarded in that way. And, you know, it's still respected. So what's it been like talking about chess magazine here at 21? Oh, cool. I mean, I haven't done it as much as I should have. But I mean, obviously chess is a project that we're working on. To kind of put something out there that's an alternative to, you know, the men's magazines today that are really not written for men. But also, there's so much else going on in the world that I really felt like it was important to make humanizing profiles of men who I believe are honestly doing good things. And obviously we did a feature on Anthony, we did a feature on Ian Smith. And we have a lot more of those lined up, like men who are actually taking action and doing something to change this environment. So it's really important, I think, to humanize those guys, because as we know, they'll be attacked by everybody else. But if, you know, obviously, if you get to know them, they're just guys and they're humans and they're, you know, flawed and they're, but they're trying to do something good. And, you know, so many people were just hiding and not doing anything and just complaining, you know, like the jerks on the couch that are just sitting there, like, you know, whatever, grumbling about whatever. And it's, these guys are actually stepping up and taking action and doing something. And, you know, if we can show that, yeah, they are regular guys and, well, not even regular guys, I mean, what does that even mean? But they are, you know, human beings and that they, you know, that maybe some things were scary for them to do, but they did it anyway. And I mean, I think, I think that's really, really important to get their stories out there and so that people can connect with them and not just see them as like, you know, enemy talking heads or like whatever, and really see that they're, they're decent men. So your regular guy point, you know, I, I think for people looking in at the 21 convention without a whole lot of context, who'd never been here before, you know, you see a convention full of high profile speakers, you know, who have well developed established brands, and you could have this feeling that, oh, do all those guys keep to themselves in some private room behind a velvet rope or something like that. And you come to a place like this, and here's Jack on and walking around sitting down at the pool having drinks with just the guys, you're one of those regular guys, you know, you're not some, you know, not some elitist larger than my figure, you know, human scale. And that's really important for men to know that, like you're saying, like you're doing for these other men like, no, we're all just men trying to figure this thing out. And there's no like two tier society here. Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, everybody gets to, you know, gets to get a little time with all of us. And, you know, it's, it is good to meet everybody. And I've been lucky, especially with my, my readership. I've always said when I go to a foreign city or whatever, you know, that city somewhere in America, if some guy reaches out and wants to meet me, there's a 90% chance that he doesn't suck. Usually, it's almost always been a good experience. And I've had dinner with guys just, you know, whatever. And you can't always do that. But, you know, generally, I think the men who appreciate my work have been the kind of guys I would want to hang out with. So where can men go to find out more about you and your work? Well, right now, for as long as that lasts, I'm on Instagram at Start the World. And my website is jack-johnavin.com. And at both of those points right now, you can sign up for my, you know, mailing list in case, you know, those go away at some point. But, you know, so that's, that's my main things. And obviously my books can be found anywhere on Amazon, and audible, and so forth. Cool. Thanks, Jack. All right. Thank you. This is Will Spencer for the Renaissance of Men here with the new 21 Report and Jack Donovan. Thanks so much for watching.