 Welcome back to Think Tech. I'm Jay Fidel and this is American Issues Take Two and we're talking today about climate change, more specifically about the elephant in the room. It's still climate change. Maybe the crisis about climate change will just go away miraculously all by itself. That's not likely. We're going to handle that against the background of what's going on in other areas in politics, for example, in war, for example, and in distractions around the world. We'll be back in a moment. This discussion, we have Stephanie Stowe Dalton, our regular contributor and Vicki Caetano, our regular esteemed guest. Welcome to the show, ladies. So here we are talking every day about so many raw meat issues, if you will, especially domestic issues, but there are international issues that are just as important. What we really don't talk about, except in maybe the myopic context of the weather, is climate change. We see the floods and we see the droughts and we see the extreme weather and phenomena all over the place, increasingly in this country, affecting lives, properties, businesses, and ultimately the economy. But we don't really say that. We have the newscaster holding the mic in front of a storm or a flood or a drought. The climate change piece doesn't come up. The media is really not connecting the dots or calling for action. So Stephanie, let me go to you first. What does this reflect? Why is this not important? At the School of Journalism at UH, they're famous for saying the one most important story in our lifetimes, all of us, is climate change, and yet it's not being reported. It is an irony, isn't it? Since the person standing out there in the wind and whatever rains, no, is only out there probably because climate change is occurring and we're a degree warmer, we're two degrees warmer, I believe, than 50, 80 years ago. So that is a very good question, Jay. And it may be this pro-pro-healism that so people want to hear about what's going on in their world nearby in the neighborhood. But it is an opportunity to remind folk of getting as much control as we can have over the climate, which means taking care of some of our carbon emissions and thinking more seriously about of the efforts that are being made. I'm sure that that could be worked in if somebody in the policy department of our media would promote connecting to the bigger issue. It's a good time to remind people. You don't want to have this kind of destruction and damage and discomfort from the storm. There's a way we can reduce it. Why, Vicki, why does the press not connect it? Why do we do raw meat in Washington in the Beltway and Trump and Congress and the GOP and alternative measures focus on Europe and Ukraine and Putin and all this and further alternative to Xi Jinping in China and the possibility of war in Taiwan? All of those are so sexy, so raw meat, laced with the possibility of violence. But we don't talk about climate change. Why isn't that we put the priorities wrong this way? Well, you know, Jay, I think like Stephanie said, you know, there's a lot of distraction going on. And I think that one of the problems for us when you talk about the media is that there is a segment of our media that's owned and controlled by people who don't want to connect the dots or who don't believe that you can connect climate change to what's happening with what we've experienced in the last few years. And so, you know, media has now become not so much about journalism like what you folks do on ThinkTech, but it's more about the money. It's a business and what sells. And I think they're very hesitant to offend or reluctant to offend a part of their business line that would be impacted negatively in a financial way if they connected the dots. And that's why you're not hearing them talk about it or connecting the dots to what's happening to us with the failure in our country to address climate change. With that said, it's not so easy either, you know. And while corporations have been pushing on that in that direction, when you think about Hawaii's plan, for example, in 2045, we will be achieving 100% clean energy. Excellent goal. How are we going to do that? What happens to all of the automobile, the vehicles that we have, that are not going to be on this energy? Do we have all of the outlets where we can plug in electrical vehicles? Apartments, you know, think about how to execute that. So to the state's credit, they talk about this and they're going to put money on it, but the plan to execute is very challenging. But we have to start doing that. You alluded to the fact that some people in public conversations don't want to talk about it. And indeed, you know, an oil company might be motivated not to talk about it. And a media supported by an oil company might be motivated not to cover it. But you know, in the Trump years, we learned that bloody everything can be politicized. I mean, medicine, vaccines can be politicized. School books can be politicized. And on and on, we can spend the whole show here talking about all the things that have become irrationally politicized. But don't you think, Vicki, that climate change has also been politicized? Aside from corporations that have a clear vested interest in avoiding the issue, there are a lot of people that feel like denying the vote, they deny that climate change is happening. Absolutely, I'm sorry to say, but everything has been politicized as we have seen. And it's also created now the inability for us as a people to come together. And this is one of the biggest challenges because you want to solve big problems, big issues, you've got to come together and find those solutions. The other thing is we talk so much about it that I think it falls on deaf ears and the next generation talks about it some more. Think about if we put some action into this instead of just verbalizing the concern. We have got to put in to place action in Hawaii to make one of the things we have to start doing is taking a serious look at this plan in 2045. That is around right around the corner. How are we going to achieve that? If we don't start making headway now, the reality is we're going to start pushing back again and realizing that that's not a possibility. Yeah, you know, Stephanie, it strikes me that we have, we the older people look to the younger people to be conscious on this issue. Now, you know, why don't we call it awoke on this issue? And my question to you is, are the young people awoke on this issue? Do they take the mantle of responsibility to go and lobby and make a plan, whatever, you know, and do clean energy and all the things you would want to do to deal with climate change, to ameliorate climate change? But are they doing that? And if they're not doing that, what's missing? What's missing in the world of that upcoming generation that could make them more conscious of this issue? Well, last day, the issue to shore does not seem to be climate among the young, except among selected groups. And of course, we have internationally young people working on it with Greta Thornberg, although she's controversial lately. But in Hawaii, that 2045 goal is laudable. And actually, it's just Honeywell is the big corporation behind that, which is really interesting. But I think that California has stepped up and Gavin Newsom has promoted actually a first world plan for achieving carbon neutrality by 2045. So there's a lot written up on this in order to cut the air pollution, reduce the greenhouse gas and make sure that the fossil fuels industry has been reduced considerably to maybe like one tenth of what it does for us now. And of course, the benefit would be that that and that would create millions of jobs like four million jobs or something that's predicted. So in California, I mean, I would hope there's more commitment to it. I know that in seeing climate, this climate plan from Gavin Newsom that's highly touted as the first really world plan to get to carbon neutrality is not accompanied by a mention of Hawaii, who also has a 2045 plan that Vicki just talked about. So I think that the publicity is a little low on this, as well as perhaps the action. I do know there's been a push and you all probably heard it too that hasn't gone over so well, but they're trying to make the point that gas natural gas is fossil fuel. And it seems to me there may be a confusion about where natural gas is coming from. And it looks like maybe there's an effort to educate people about that that is not a choice away from electricity that is away from fossil fuel. So there's lots of work to be done, many ways to come about doing that though should be very interesting to the youth of today. Well, I think the natural gas interests have been educating people to think that natural gas is a quote bridge fuel of that term. And it's okay. And a lot of people walk around with that notion it's okay because it's a bridge fuel. In fact, it's fossil fuel. You're right. And Jay, and Jay, the heart of gas is it's frack the fracking. So actually, actually, when you go a step further into it, it's really, really very unattractive and a death now for for the earth and in additional ways than just too much carbon. So Vicki, let's talk about the money for a minute, you know, my wife and I went to Reykjavík, Iceland a few years ago. And, you know, they used to have glaciers and snow covered vistas used to be really beautiful, cold, northern, you know, kind of Scandinavian environment but further north. But when we went, we found that there were no glaciers to speak of. The snow and ice had receded, temperature had improved. And, you know, I kept asking the tour guides, you know, what happened? I thought you guys were, you know, concerned about that. Well, the fact is there's a lot of people visit Iceland and they don't want to stress the notion, you know, that they're no longer the old Iceland we thought, you know, was an example of how to deal with climate change. And I think, you know, that's in their own self-interest, isn't it? And so it's no longer priority, at least not in the conversation they have with tourists. And I suggest to you that even in Europe, you know, where they try to raise money, money is so important, we talked about that a minute ago. The European countries, the EU, the NATO countries, they're busy thinking about, you know, Ukraine and Russia and the future of the liberal world order, which is very important, for sure. But they're giving their money to Ukraine, not to climate change. And it is actually, you know, pathetic how little money they and we give to climate change. So it seems to me that you'll have to follow the money, because the money is a metric of the level of interest that we have, not only here, but everywhere in the world. Yeah, I was just going to bring that up, Jay. That's absolutely right. Follow the money. Isn't it ironic, if you think about it, one of the most impactful things to climate change is all this traveling. And here we are in Hawaii, the most remote location for people to come, you know, they've got to travel a long distance. And so we're talking about assessing visitors a fee. But the fact that they have to travel this distance is one of the biggest impact to climate change, to the fact that they have to come here or for us to travel there. Think of what that does to the economy. So follow the money. But I think it's very ironic. We talk about it. We don't talk about the elephant in the room, which is coming to Hawaii. That in itself is one of the things you should be looking at or for us going to the mainland. You know, there was a piece on 60 minutes only a few days ago about fusion energy. And in fact, you know, the print press has covered that, you know, a number of times in the past couple of weeks, you know, the discovery in Lawrence Livermore about the, you know, actual fusion, where you put so much energy in and you get energy plus back. And, you know, it's enough to heat a kettle of tea right now. But, you know, the dream is that soon enough we'll have fusion energy that will light the world. And for that matter, apply those planes you're talking about. However, you know, the issue, and this is really important, is you got some people saying, oh, yeah, I'm going to do that in five years. Sure, we are. We've been studying fusion for 50 years. And others are saying, well, you know, how about 2050, 2060 before it becomes a reality? You know, what I get out of this biggie is that we are confused about the timeline. The 2045 clean energy timeline was let's throw it on the wall and see if it's fixed kind of timeline. There was no science behind that at all. So query, you know, here we have fusion, which is, you know, that would be the great Machia that we could have fusion energy and do all the stuff without having a negative effect on climate. But we don't know when and although we're putting some money into it, maybe a lot of money into it, nobody can tell us it's going to happen soon enough. So we're in a race against time. Won't you agree? That's right. And, you know, time is the most valuable thing that we have and too little too late. And sometimes I wonder if these things are being touted to just kind of pacify people to buy more time. But we've run out of time already. Yeah. You know, when what was his name Al Gore made that movie Inconvenient Truth back in the 90s. I can tell you, I was at a dinner party and somebody told me the movie was playing around the corner at the varsity theater. And I stood up and I left the meeting, I left the dinner. I said, I had to see the movie goodbye, everybody, because I realized that this was the biggest story of our lifetime. Nobody else stood up just me. What I'm saying is that that was a big story in the 1990s. Is it as big a story now or is it maybe a smaller story? You know, and Stephanie, I went to see a play at St. Anthony's. Hank Rogers and Blue Planet funded this play. And it was about clean energy and climate change among other things in the future. You know, and it was it was for the six year olds and they loved it and they walked out singing the songs and chanting, you know, the slogans that the play taught them. And I said, my goodness gracious, this is really a statement of affecting the next generation. But I haven't seen that play later. And I haven't seen a whole lot later. And I think that our level of education for that generation we talked about is actually on the decline. You know, think about all the trouble in Washington, the trouble in schools, the trouble in the libraries, the critical race theory kind of perversion of our education for these kids. We're the same priority problem that exists globally exists in the schools and it exists in the hallowed halls of Congress where they're supposed to be making public policy. What happened? Why aren't these kids and others forcing Congress to do something? Well, that's such that's the question, right? And before we get into that, the Congress, I wanted to share my astonishment that would be very attractive for schools to take on. Is that if all of the moocows, the cattle were controlled better, fed different things and had their methane production reduced, that it equals what we could get out of changing over to electric cars. Now, I'm sure that I mean, I can't give you a citation or an actual scientific number, but it wasn't from a credible source. And I found that astonishing that we have something that we are perfectly able to address and at least take care of something that would make a pretty immediate difference and give us some momentum on it. And that is something that would be a great theme for all of our schools and for youngsters to learn so much about our relationship with the animal kingdom and how the animal kingdom can do just things that have the same unfortunate impact as human behavior. But yeah, so then going over to the Congress, I'll let you take that away because we're right up against it. Why everybody wants to continue to be a coal miner or wants to support, you know, what better elevators to take more people down into larger shafts to get to the coal? Why are we investing, you know, in that and being pursued and tormented to be careful about reducing our coal mining? So maybe that's something to talk about. I mean, I understand that the coal mining is, you know, traditional and cultural, but it's what has in the past ruined London and is now about ready to ruin the rest of the world. You know, Vicki, we've talked about the United Nations many times as the, you know, de facto single global leadership organization. We've criticized them because they have this problem in the Security Council with the veto, you know, the worst of our member nations. And so you wait for the United Nations to do something dispositive, but they haven't. And they can't. They can't raise the money and they can't come up with a, you referred to it, the PLAN. So if I give you a clean energy by 2045 aspirational in Hawaii and elsewhere, is that a plan? How do you make a global plan for a global problem? Gavin Newsom operating in California, is that a global plan? You know, they say, oh, politics is local. What about all climate change? Is that local too? Don't we have to have a global plan? Where's that going to come from? And this is the hard question I saved for you, Vicki. What does that plan look like? You know, I think when, while you talk about a global plan, I think that that's going to be extremely challenging because most countries are going to say, look in your old backyard and do what you need to do. And this to me is the ironic thing that we recognize in Hawaii, how important climate changes. I don't think if you talk to most people in Hawaii anyway, nobody disagrees with that. And yet we're talking about building more buildings, more residents, more hotels at the same time, because nobody wants to talk about reducing visitors, follow the money. And so we talk about all these ideas, but we're not willing to really move the difficult issues forward that we know we have to do. That may be the moment of the statement. What would it take, Vicki? You know, there's a storm out there with our name on it, you know, like some of the really destructive storms that we have seen over the past few decades. There's one coming and it is going to be a whopper and it is going to hit, you know, Honolulu, for example. And just because you live on a hill or I live on a hill doesn't save us because the society will collapse down along the water in terms of following the money for the hotels, the economy, all the services and goods that we rely on. And so if this storm hits, for example, Honolulu and stops our society, nobody is exempt. Nobody is safe. We are all directly affected. So I give you two thoughts about that. You know, one is when that happens, we are going to get the message. I promise you, we are going to get the message writ large when the whole Hawaii just stops and tragedy in every corner. That's one aspect of it. The other is it doesn't take, you know, a whole lot of political savvy to realize this is coming. And to become not only sustainable, but resilient so that we can recover after it happens. And I actually don't see a plan on either the sustainability, you know, a comprehensive plan on sustainability or on resilience. What'll it take? Well, Jay, can I submit one real terrorizing fact? And I've had some interest in windows on the condominiums over the last couple of years. And as I understand it, our windows in all of these condominiums that are more and more completely glass are only able to withstand a category three. So if, as you say, something like a five or close to it hits Honolulu, we will be so devastated. I can't even imagine recovering within any reasonable amount of time will be more in a devastation and needing FEMA and aid and death desperation. So it's such a good point that she raised. And why is it that we don't have windows that are capable of surviving that hundred year storm that's coming here like it comes everywhere by a Sandy in New Jersey. But also the corporations are behind this. And we don't, you know, we talk about the Congress and our Congress people who are not diligent on it. But Howard Hughes is, you know, I think he's on his seventh condominium now going up here. Exactly. As you say, coming in and sucking up all this additional electricity. And this is another question. What's their role and how can government partner better with corporations? And especially here, we will suffer from this and maybe lose it for who knows how long if we got hit with a storm like that, there'd be nothing going on. I'm going to speak about COVID. I think this could be much worse than that. Now, Vicki, let me deflect that question to you. What's the role of, you know, the developers? What's the role of the corporate community? What's the role of the, you know, gee whiz, the NGOs, the nonprofits? What's the role of the average citizen? What's the role of the government? What's the role of the executive people in the government? The legislature? What's the role of the courts? And how do you how do you get them to play that role? No, exactly, Jay, you know, to really make an impact. Well, Hawaii is so small, okay, in fairness. And one of the things we always say is that what we admit doesn't have the kind of global impact that California, the United States, other parts of the world do. But with that said, everybody does have a responsibility to play a role in this. And we need to create those plans in order to mitigate the impact of climate change on us, as we've been seeing already. But I think when you say follow the money, this is one of the challenges between the unions and corporations. Nobody is willing to pay that big price that is necessary to be part of having a bigger plan. So, you know, we'll throw money here and there, 100 million, 50 million. I think leadership is just praying that something major doesn't happen on our watch. Take the can down the road, shall we say, and let the next generation deal with it. I think in all honesty, that is truly the plan. And for now, we do small bits and pieces here. Like I said, I applaud the plan for the 2045 to alternative energy completely, 100% clean energy. But I'd really like to see executing that plan. Because all I see is 10 years from there saying we need another 25 years to do this plan. So it sounds good. But if you stop and think while we're talking about that, as Stephanie pointed out, we're building more buildings in Kakaako, more hotels coming up, visitors are still coming. And that really is the impact climate change. And you think of what Hawaii could do. But there's a huge price associated with that. Yes, absolutely. And we have to have the reserves to pay that price. And every time we develop a surplus, we give it away. Like in payments of hundreds of dollars to each taxpayer. I say one of the things under consideration is a $300 payment to every taxpayer. So what is that about? Couldn't we use that on some common benefit, common goal, common plan, like climate change? And so at the end of the day, we don't have a reserve for this. And at the end of the day, we don't spend the money for this to harden ourselves. And what's interesting, there's a dynamic here. Let me go back into history. Back in the day, that is after Al Gore and the movie in the in the odd years, there was so much conversation in Hawaii about climate change. Now there isn't. And there was all the talk about having the money, worrying about the extreme weather, all that. Now there really isn't. And I take your point, Vicki. I think what's happening is that our officials are saying, well, you know, if we have extreme weather, we're really going to be in for it. And if we're in for it, everybody's going to leave town and nothing left here. So let's just rely on good old fashioned luck. That's what I agree with you. It'll be too late to do anything. I gotta go now. Bye. You know, the fact is that Hawaii could distinguish itself. Don't you think, Stephanie, we could take our own advice. We could be more sustainable, more resilient. We could deal with this. We could have a reserve. We could create a fund. We could, you know, change our building codes and the like to be better prepared for that weather. And we can survive that way. I'm sorry. No, I was going to say, like, while we want to continue having visitors come, because that is the heart of our, you know, for our state's economy. But why not take a look at the visitor impact to our state? Why not have hotels monitor the utilization of energy that guests use? Why not make them a partner versus just giving them free reign on how they consume energy? So there's ways that we can, you know, we can't cross that bridge overnight, but we got to start implementing some of these things in order to counter the impact of climate change. I would like to say that if there any aspiring executive politicians for those who's out there who might want to be a leader in Hawaii, this is a really important topic, which we're going to be facing up to sooner than we probably want to. So what it would be interesting to hear from people about what would be a plan for making these changes from someone interested in doing that at the highest level as governor or lieutenant governor. So there we have some really good questions and some momentum here on getting at that topic and getting it discussed in the ways that there can maybe be a difference made, because I don't see it happening now. There's a problem with the democracy because, you know, the public officials respond to the lobbyists that respond to their constituents, but they don't look over the horizon. They don't they don't make plans for things that are obvious. And so the science that tells us that the sea level will rise, the science that tells us that our weather will, you know, destroy a good part of our, is likely to destroy a good part of our economy. That's just not, nobody is advocating, you know, that's the problem. You know, you guys, I was looking at some of our old shows back in 2013, 2014, and I had a very interesting show about climate change. We called it, I forget what we called it, but and one of the points that came up was, why don't we have more young developers out of school? Developers take risks anyway. We have to teach those kids out of school that taking risks, I wrote, that's okay. It's okay in business. It's okay in entrepreneurship and in, you know, technology, development, all that, to be okay in developing properties. And they are the ones who presumably understand that they have a leg up. They have an interest in this. And because it's going to be their state soon enough. And if we had more young developers who were awake on climate change, maybe the developments would be different. Maybe more like the kind that Stephanie talks about. But if you were looking for a comprehensive plan, that an executive official of the state might adopt and run with and take a risk, a political risk with and dedicate some money and time and attention and twist some arms about, what would it look like? Well, I think that there is a plan out there. And I think what everyone should be looking at is what it would take for them as part of the community to execute that plan. So in our business world, for example, we have a lot of transportation vehicles. How are we going to manage that? And the state should be a partner in that. Do you expect a business to convert fully to the alternative energy? Is there some kind of incentive? Because it's a huge price tag to do that. How about small business? How do they play a role? So I think every business, as a start, should put down, this is the plan. How are you going to be able to achieve it? It's all these pieces that we have to connect together in order to achieve that goal. That takes leadership, doesn't it? And it takes priority. It sounds like I'm repeating myself, but part of leadership is priority. And the will to do it. Well, Stephanie, if we do nothing, this is the Charles Dickens approach. And we look at the ghost of Christmas future. And we keep on, you know, pledging down the road without calling for people to perform their roles and get on board to, you know, act on a plan. What happens to Hawaii? Well, I think that Hawaii's loss would be a detriment, would be suffered by everybody on the planet in addition to just generally being sorry to have anybody. You're right. I want to make that distinction. You know, there's the extreme weather, there's the sea level rise that would definitely affect us. But there's also, you know, the notion of too much rain in one place, too little rain in the other place, drought, you know, sort of ubiquitous things that affect the whole planet. And we have to make a distinction. I mean, if we all get in electric cars, that is not going to do that much for Hawaii specifically, but it will help climate change around the world. So you have to make that distinction, don't you? Yeah. Well, I mean, we don't want to have Hawaii be just the tip of Mount Akea with the telescopes up there, which would leave it, you know, as a very important point on the globe. But nobody, everybody would be interested in this. And I mean, I am curious that Miami is already underwater. They're keeping a lot of stuff undercover there. But their flooding is just enormous. Their drains are not working for getting things into the ocean. So it's all out there about ready to pop. And it may be that the signs and the dangers that we're already in are going to pop and get people to get a little bit smarter about this. But it does take, as you say, that all the communities have to be involved, especially the scientists and the UH and the universities. And how are we going to make all of this come together in a scientifically based manner that not only can all corporate areas and other areas of commerce help with this small business, but also even the military. I mean, they're in jeopardy here, too. If they lose their Kanoi Bay and Pearl Harbor resources and have everything dry dock flooded all the time, that's not going to work either. So I mean, it's not anything to be ignored. But we are ignoring it. But it'll get to the point where it won't be ignorable anymore. Maybe we have to go there. Yeah. One of the points you made is that it seems to be accelerating. Every time you look, you see a story in the press that, you know, it's happening faster than we thought. This is very, very troubling. So, Vicki, let me let me put the dickens question to you. We talk about following the money. We talk about the hotels and the, you know, the Hawaii mono economy. If we have a sea level rise, if we have climate change, if we have a problem with tourists coming here, hotels operating here because nobody thought about a way to deal with this, what happens to Hawaii? What would we do then? And what would be the effect? So I think that if we just carry on as we're doing, making small kind changes, as we say, we're already seeing what the future is going to be, except it will be exacerbated. The problem will be even bigger. The big tsunami that comes is going to create such tremendous damage. That is what's going to happen. I think people don't have the kind of timeline that you see. And that's why it continues to move along so slowly. They think, oh, it's not going to happen in my lifetime. But if we make this difficult change, it's going to impact how I live, impact jobs, we have to change, look at other industries. It's a big undertaking and it does need leadership to bring people together and to connect all the dots. The easier way is to just hobble along as we are. And whether it's in 10 years or 30 years, we're going to see the problems we're experiencing on a much bigger scale and more frequent. And I think that many people are, frankly, opting to do that just by time. Take a chance. Rely on old-fashioned luck. Hope that storm passes us by all the... And then, of course, we have... We can't disconnect this from the fact that Congress doesn't care. Do you think Marjorie Taylor-Green believes in this discussion? Do you think that for one minute she cares about climate change? For her, it's a matter of being uninformed and stupid and politicized for her own self-interest. So, Congress, you can't count on Congress to do anything. And I think that's one of the lessons I take away and I'd like to know here in the last moments of our show how you feel about that. Joe Biden is trying. He's trying. But, clearly, is it enough? And with a dysfunctional Congress for the foreseeable future, can we act at the national level? And if we cannot act at the national level, for any number of reasons, can Hawaii do enough to protect itself on both of those areas of exposure? That is, how climate change would affect us and how the world's response, the world's succumbing to climate change would affect us overall. So, anyway, we're out of time almost, and I'd like to ask you to make final comments. Stephanie, you first. I think we have to want to hear more from our leaders, our reps. There are 210 or something people in the House that we're not hearing it from at all. So, I think we are in good leadership position with President Biden, and we'll keep on going here. But you're right. The political situation is dire. That needs to be jerked up into action, and hopefully it will be by the ideas and the interventions more than by the next catastrophe we have in Hawaii or hopefully not in Miami. In Miami and hopefully not in Hawaii. Let's let the mainland areas that are impacted by this are in much better position to work on improving them before we have to face even more effect of it. But a good point you make is that if the mainland and the United States economy suffers, and ultimately it will, for the lack of action, that will have an effect on Hawaii right there. It would make it easier for Hawaii to do it. Absolutely. So, your final comments, Vicki, what would you offer our viewers to carry away from this? When they wake up tomorrow morning, what should they be doing? I think that while there are many voices, we need leadership to bring people together. And I would propose that even if we're not able to make big changes, getting everyone together to make the kind of changes they need in their household, in their neighborhood, in their business, make some kind of progress is better than nothing. And it is that action together that will bring people to connect the dots so that we can be willing to make the bigger compromises that ultimately lead us. So smaller steps is sometimes necessary in order to achieve the big success. And I think everybody has to try just a collaborative trial, a try, a collaborative attempt, a collaborative effort would be the best we can do. A joint one. Yes, joint. Thank you both. Thank you, Stephanie Stoldo, and thank you, Vicki Kantanos. So enjoy these discussions. All the best to you guys. Thanks. Aloha. Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at thinktecawaii.com. Mahalo.