 We're so happy to be here at 5 p.m. Here on Community Matters. We have Willie Holly, Jr. He's a citizen. That's what he identifies as a citizen. And it's the first time we've had somebody on the show who is a citizen. That's it. No further identification necessary. That's all we need that you are a citizen. I mean, you could be a citizen of Olivia. It wouldn't matter. You're a citizen. Yes, sir. A citizen of the world. Thank you for coming down, Willie. Appreciate you having me here. We talked about what we're going to talk about, and it is about history. Although I think language is also woven in between the points of our discussion. But let's talk about history. Let's talk about George Santayana, who often quoted to say that he who doesn't remember history is doomed to repeat it. There's so much wisdom in that. The more you think about it, the more true it is. And we have something that interests you in the Falls of Clyde. In fact, you're part of an organization called SOS. Save our ship, the Falls of Clyde. Please spread the word. The website is friendsoffallsofclyde.org. What is it that you care about around the ship? Well, first of all, I just want to clarify that this is not my organization. I'm not a member of the Friends of the Falls of Clyde. There is an organization of 501-3C, but I'm not a member of that. I'm just truly a private citizen who is interested in an effort to save the Falls of Clyde. I came up with the SOS before I looked up their website, and it turned out it was the same. It's so natural to say SOS was a ship. Then I looked up on their website, they had the same logo, basically, so it was coincidence. But I want to be sure that the public understands that I am not a member of the organization Friends of the Hall. You're an observer, a commentator, if you will. Yes. So the Falls of Clyde, either my recollection, is a 19th century sailing ship. It sailed to Hawaii, I think, and some community-minded, historically-minded citizens brought it here, back in the, I want to say, the 70s. Or even earlier. Even earlier, maybe the 60s, yeah? Maybe late 60s. I'm not... Right in there. ...complete history. And that would be, you know, almost 50 years ago. It was here in 74 when I got here. The Falls of Clyde was over the years. It was parked across from, let's see, how do you define this? Because it isn't really well known anymore. That pier, which is not too far from Aloha Tower, just diamond head of Aloha Tower. And it's been parked there for a long time. For many years it was an active museum. And there was all kinds of exhibits inside. And I remember, too, and I thought this was really interesting at the time. They hired it out for parties. You could rent the Falls of Clyde and have a really interesting party on the main deck and below, and eat and drink and feel like you were in the 19th century. But then the Falls of Clyde kind of got less interesting. The generations come and go. Nobody cared. Nobody knew. Nobody... What is that old hulk rusting there in the harbor? Why do we have that? And here we are in a situation where it hasn't been maintained. It hasn't been maintained in the public eye either. Nobody knows what it is. It sits there and inevitably somebody will say, let's get rid of it. It's an eyesore. It's old junk. Let's get rid of it. You don't feel that way. Well, that day has already come when the public consensus is, it's old. It's rusty. It's an eyesore. Let's get rid of it. And I believe a lot of times not truly knowing the history of that ship. And a short synopsis is the only ship of its kind that's built in that way, the four-masted iron-hole schooner in the world. So this is not just local or even American history here. We're talking about a world heritage artifact here. And just for Hawaii to be the last resting place off as a reef and stuff, I truly don't think it's time for that to happen. So I'm trying to garner assistance and preventing that from happening. It's one of the kind that lasts in the world and stuff. So why should we care about a 19th century ship that's all run down? Why should we care? Why should the kids in school, the younger kids, the older kids, the generation that is so invested in Hawaii history, sovereignty issues like that, why should we care about the falls of Clyde? Well, maybe two reasons that come to mind for me. For the same reason that people go to Pearl Harbor to see the Arizona Memorial or the Mighty Mole out there, to Missouri. Both men? Yeah. For kind of like the same reasons that's already in play. It's shipping, it's history, and when you take these tours, et cetera, you always learn something. If nothing else, you know, a child like on a day tour or summer fun or whatever. You will know more about what a ship is, what they used to be, what they're like, and do I have an interest in following something like that. Those two reasons to me are enough to keep history in the presence of the upcoming generation. We title this, you know, Hawaii's history of sailing ships. Thinking of Hawaii's history of sailing ships. We, you know, I think people forget, don't they, that we do live on an island. It's 2,000 miles plus away from any continent, anything. We had to get here by way of these sailing ships. They are embedded in our history and they should be embedded in our mind and memory right now, all of us, because we live on the island. It's remarkable that people reject that idea and they don't go to the water. They don't go beyond the water. They don't go on sailing ships. They don't care about it. It's all planes, if it's anything. True. And so what we have here is a denial of our own roots, if you will. Past and history, here not. But the Honolulu Harbor, the boat days. I remember them all. You know, coming in by a little hot towel. To me, those were the best days for Hawaii from, I've been here over 40 years now. And for me, I missed it by 10 years, the glory days of Hawaii would have been like the late 50s and etc. When boat travel was the main motor transportation to get here and all that entailed. You know, the laze, the flowers, the music. Old enzymes. All of that, you know. So this is for me a memory of what I really didn't see, but I was here just enough to catch the flavor of what I had missed. And I don't know if you remember the old Oceania they used to do. I do remember, yeah. And that kind of thing, it was just a different era. It was a valuable piece of history. That kind of thing. And I believe the ship was right across the other side from the Oceania. That's right. Just facing each other. The Oceania was a Chinese dinner ship, dinner and theater ship. Dinner show. Dinner show, yeah. And it was from Hong Kong. It was a retired ship. And Hyram Fong's son, Hyram Fong Jr. Hyram Fong the senator, right? Hyram Fong Jr. was a lawyer at the time. And he bought the thing in Hong Kong. And he brought it over here and tried to reinvigorate it as a restaurant. Right there at Aloha Tower, is that recall? And it was there for a few years, but unfortunately it wasn't popular. And, you know, I don't know, it's not here now. It's not here now. So we're trying to get to Falls of Clyde, not to follow the same route as the Oceania. You know, the last voyage kind of thing. I would add this though too, that when you have a Falls of Clyde, it's just bristling with, as you said, historic information. It connects us to our past. I mean, if I'm a kid, make me a 10-year-old kid. And I'm walking around and I see the Binnacle and the compass. I see all the navigational, the sexton. I mean, how many people in this, how many people in this state have ever touched a sexton or a Binnacle? That's the, you know, the... There you go right there. Okay, that's the part of the compass thing on the bridge. And how many people, you know, know what it was like to sleep in a wooden ship, to eat in a wooden ship, to imagine yourself crossing an ocean in a wooden ship, not going to be as stable as these big cruise liners today. For sure. Or, as you said, a four-masted schooner, this is a major ship. And the wind would blow. It was an experience. So we, you know, we lose that if we lose the Falls of Clyde. But problem is, it takes money. And when we come back from this break, we're going to talk about what steps could be taken to save the Falls of Clyde. Good. That's Willie Holly. I'm talking about the Falls of Clyde. We'll be right back after this break. Aloha, everybody. My name is Mark Shklav. I'd like you to join me for my program, Law Across the Sea, on thinktechhawaii.com. Aloha. Hi, my name is Justine Espiritu. This is my co-host, Matthew Johnson. Every Thursday at 4 p.m., we host the Hawaii Food and Farmers series. This is the place you can come to for insight on the perspective and history and passions of Hawaii's farmers and all folks involved in Hawaii's local food system. What kind of folks do we have on? So we have everyone from local farmers. We have foodies, chefs. We also have journalists, researchers, anyone who's actually working to help make Hawaii's local food system that much better. So join us every Thursday and tweet in the us and ask us some questions and leave your comments as well. Thank you. Bingo. We're back. We're in a very interesting discussion and issue with Willie Holly Jr. and he is a citizen. And he has a point of view about the Falls of Clyde, which is what, not a quarter mile from here in the harbor, not open, deteriorating and deteriorating the public eye and people want to see it gone, nobody wants to actually put Humpty back together again. And my question to Willie is, in the best of all worlds, how would we save the Falls of Clyde? Community involvement. And what I mean by community is not just Honolulu, not just Hawaii, but it's a worldwide heritage artifact item. So let's get the whole world involved in this SOS effort. Okay? Just because I don't have what it takes. Doesn't mean that maybe someone else doesn't. So I'm trying to get the word spread, especially through Facebook and et cetera. Let's let the whole world know the situation is here in Honolulu Harbor, okay? Through the multimedia means that we have today, that's pretty easy. Take a photo and Facebook it or Twitter it et cetera, you know. That and our efforts on a personal basis, one-on-one, ask people to get involved, you know. We have people who are residents here in Hawaii. We should care. Who, if they're going to make it home here and truly demonstrate on a small level from some aspects, that they truly want to call this home. You and I probably know some of the names more than the general audience may, but anybody you think that can help spread the word and the word will eventually get around to the proper people. Well, it's probably a timing issue though. My recollection, maybe you know more about this, is that the impetus to getting rid of it is in the government and maybe the State Department of Transportation. Yes. Which runs the harbor and they say, this is an eyesore to get it out of here. We have to run our harbor now. There's nobody who is standing up for the ship. Years ago, you know, there was money. Years ago, it was an active museum. Years ago, there was an accumulation of artifacts from that period of time. True. There were docents that took people around and explained to them. I took that tour a couple of times. It was a great way to spend your lunch hour, really. There's a restaurant right nearby. It was a great way to spend your lunch hour. But that money seems to have dried up. The interest seems to have dried up. Now, what's surprising is we have Bishop Museum. We have other historical organizations. We run the palace and all that. Mission House. But they don't pay attention to Paul's Clyde. It's not in, you know, the main channel for them. And we have to get them interested, I think. And we have to find money, whether it's here or somewhere else. There are people all over the world that have a respect for Hawaiian history. True. I know people in California who have studied it all their lives. They don't get here that often. But they study Hawaiian history all their lives. They find it fascinating. This is part of it. Because the ship did ply the Pacific to come here. It was part of the trade. They didn't put it on a barge and bring it here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, Bishop Museum was the original owner of the Falls of Clyde. And they sold it to the friends of the Falls of Clyde for $1, you know, with Auschwitz. I think they were to manage it, take it over. Maintain it. Maintain it. And it's the last eight years that hasn't been the case and stuff. So I spoke with Darren. I think his name is Darren Young. Falls of Clyde, man. No, he's a Department of Transportation. Oh, sure, yes, right. You get all. I got a nice letter from him. Darrell Young. Darrell Young. He spoke at our program last week. Oh, was I? Yeah, I spoke with him. He was away when I spoke with his aide. And he wrote me a nice letter when he got back. Thanks for the interest, but an interest of our duty, et cetera, et cetera. Which is expected for the government to say that, you know, so it wasn't unexpected. Yeah, the harbor wants to get it out and make it move and move it. And that's the only, I believe, problem that they have with it. It's not that it's rusted. It's not that it's an eyesore. It's just a danger from governmental perception. If it sinks in that harbor, then they got a massive cleanup job. A political problem. And political costs. The cost of astronomical erasure ship like that or whatever. So if we could just get it moved out of Honolulu Harbor, say the Kuala Basin, right? And on the other side, they're going to redo all of Kuala Basin. I don't know if you know that. I do. So there would be a perfect marriage of someone who needs a home, the ship, and an area that's being redone, you know? With due regard for its historic value. Right. And they'll return to the dinner boat or giving kids tourists so that over time they can have support itself in Kuala Basin, et cetera. But it needs this chance, you know, for somebody to take on the possibility of doing that. Well, if we take it out and sink it or whatever, that option's gone forever. That's it. And no more falls of Clyde. I mean, you'd have to look at it. The divers would love it. I've heard from the diving community, well, you know, we're divers, so it'd be great for us, you know? Maybe there's some treasure in our home. I'm just saying, you know, it's the only one in the world, see, and that's what makes it different from any other ship like that. This is it. What would it take? I mean, I look at a ship like that and I say to myself, before this ship is seaworthy, it's not the right word, but say historic worthy, museum worthy. Museum worthy. It's going to cost at least a quarter million dollars to put it in the ship. Oh, it's more than that. I think it's probably more than that. A million dollars. This is one of a kind. One of a kind. Two million dollars. We've been in here. Well, the highest bid came in at 30. Million. Thirty million. Two restored under, you can't see this, but this is what the falls of Clyde looks like. You can get a shot of that. But here's a picture that Willie is referring to about the falls of Clyde. That's the bow spread over there, huh? This was in a better day or is this now? That was in a better day. Better day. It looked pretty good in those days. And this is now. Oh, okay. This is now. Before and after. Before and after. Oh, you can see the extreme differences. The rust under the water line. How does it steel hull? Yes. Yeah. And it partially sank and it was floated up to a, didn't continue to sink. It's in dire need of help. To move it from here to dry dock will take three million dollars. That's just to get up out of the water. You have to be very careful. Yes. You don't want it to sink or fall apart. True. Amidst it. Get a professional company to do this. Maybe the Navy or. Yeah. Salvation company. Salvation company that specializes in this kind of thing. But the bid came in at roughly three million to move it from there to dry dock. And that's before you start fixing it. And that's before you start fixing it. Okay. So at that point you have two options. You can fix it to go back in the water or make it in place of restaurant road that we used to have. Not restaurant road, but a fisherman's war for that. You know, it fit right beautifully right along there. And I haven't spoken with OSHA yet, but you know, because they can't build hotels over there and stuff. I mean, it may be a great little thing for them to get started with and using. Great tourist attraction. For sure. And close enough to why EKS is hop skipping a jump. Yeah. And that whole area will be built for tourism anyway. Anyway. Yeah. You know, I spoke with ACDA this morning on the phone and trying to introduce the idea of all of the kakako construction. There are community benefits that are tied with those projects. You know, if they don't do low income housing, they can do other things as community benefits. Yeah. So I was trying to introduce them. They're going to redo the harbor anyway. Then why doesn't Cam School, Howard Hughes, and a couple other guys who are doing all of that. Right there. They benefit by it. They benefit by it. You know, just as a community benefit, you get together. It's not even $3 million a piece then. Yeah. You know, and through, you know, something they are required to do anyway, community benefits. Anybody approach them about this? Well, I think I'm about the only one who's mentioned it to them. So we just need the right go between a liaison to introduce an idea like that. Yeah. You know, all in effort to save that ship. Pretty persuasive actually, Willie. Yeah. We benefit them and us and our sense of ourselves. You know, our self esteem, our self image. That we care. That we care. That we care. We care about our past. We care about doing the right thing. We care about not doing the wrong thing. The wrong thing would be to sink it. That's the wrong thing. That would be the wrong thing. Yeah. You know, so not even as a last option. Yeah. So you seem to be saying though that the funds for this for the $30 million and the $30 million should come from what? Private owners. Private industry. What about the government? Everyone. Everyone, you know. Who should lead this? Well, I think the governor should. You know, speaking of cost, we have a project that's currently going on. It's now at $10.5 billion. I think I could probably figure out what the project is talking about. That's $10,500 for every man, woman, and child on the line. Yes. Yes. And the guesstimate, the relationship was about $3.5 billion. Now we're at $10.5 billion and not even halfway. We've done the easy part. So what's it really going to take to get that project done? So when the government said we don't have any money, how do you explain this? I don't reconcile that. Yeah. It doesn't fit. You know what I mean? You're going to raise taxes or whatever you're going to have to do to do this. And talking of $3 or $30 million, that's pocket change compared to $10.5 billion. Yeah. You know, it's going to get higher. So the government should play its proper role. And, you know, that's what the government's for, you know. It's priorities. It's priorities. It's not money. It's priorities. This should not be at the bottom of the priority list. For this long, yeah. It's a long time. Yes. And nobody has done anything. You know what this reminds me of? The Natatorium. Same thing. Same thing. Same thing. You know, kick the can, kick the can, and then say, ah, the can's a little kicked now. Let's throw it away. It's been ruined. Let's kick it out of the sea. That's basically it. We lose heritage doing that, you know. So, you know. Well, good for you, Willie, that you care about this and that you have ideas in here. It really impresses me that you're going around and talking to people. That you came here to talk about it. That you're talking to some of the landowners in the area, the government in the area. You're relentless, Willie. Well, sometimes that's what it takes. It also helps that I'm retired and I've got time to do this. You know what I mean? Well, at the end of our time, but there's a camera out there that you should talk to, that one. So, I'd like you to close the show by talking to the public. We've talked about what they need to know, but can you tell them what to do, man, woman, and child? Yes, sir. An idea and a request is that we contact our citizens here in Hawaii who would be instrumental in helping this project come to fruition. A few days ago, there was an article in the paper by the Zuckerberg Foundation, as in Facebook, Zuckerberg, just sold off stock to sell and then to gain financing for philanthropic purposes. It was stated in the newspaper. Well, this qualifies as a philanthropic endeavor. So could you please contact Chan Zuckerberg Foundation. It's their foundation for the philanthropic activity. Or Pierre, or Mediar, or Mr. Allison, who's voted on the other side from the Falls of Clyde down here by the way. You know, people who truly could help the public in this endeavor. So maybe those three at this point who could satisfy this need for the front of public, you know. Great suggestion. Thank you, Willie Holly, Jr. It's great to have you on this show. Thank you for being here, man. You're coming down.