 and welcome to Cooper Union. What's happening with human rights around the world on Think Tech Live, broadcasting from our downtown studio in Honolulu, Hawaii, in Moana, New York, Kaya. I'm your host, Joshua Cooper. The title of today's episode is Creating Community for Unity in Ukraine, Civil Society Solidarity to Serve People. And joining to me today is Natalia, the co-founder of the amazing nonprofit from MADA. Natalia, thank you so much for joining us today here on Think Tech Live. Thank you very much, Joshua. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. We know it's a very important time at this conflict as we're on day 98 of this horrible war. And with Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine, people around the planet that are dedicated to democracy and freedom, it began campaigns of compassion to serve Ukrainians facing the brutal bombing and barbarous war crimes. We know ROMADA, meaning community, is one example of engagement with courageous campaigns to assist people on the front lines on the unprovoked war, taking care of the immediate and most pressing needs today and rebuilding in the future. Can you share some of the work that you've been involved with so far? Oh yeah, absolutely. ROMADA has been formed as an on-profit here in the U.S. in 2017. And the primary purpose at that time was to publish the first Ukrainian newspaper on the West Coast of the United States with the same name, ROMADA. And we've been publishing this monthly newspaper already for the five years, this December that we will be celebrating. Very early on, the reason behind having the newspaper was to create this Ukrainian media space, right? So that we would give the local Ukrainian-American diaspora a voice and bring the news, local news, as well as news from Ukraine. However, the organization also had a very significant charitable component from the very beginning. This war in Ukraine has been going on for eight years. It started in 2014. And as of January, even before the full-scale invasion has started, there were approximately 3,000 children in Ukraine that were orphaned, that their fathers or mothers had died in the conflict in the war in the Eastern Ukraine. And our organization was doing fundraising and sending $50 per child for Christmas to these families. We've been doing this for five past years. Since the war started, we have quickly reorganized other activities on two major fronts. One is informational front, right? Because bringing information was very important. And we sort of were always on the forefronts, on bringing the most important messages of what Ukraine needed at that very moment in time, right? Sort of staying even ahead of the curve. We were the first one to be asking for preventing sanctions against Russia when everybody was here. No, no, no, no, no, we cannot do that unless the war starts. But the Ukrainian government would say, do that now before they start killing, bombing us. And we were actively promoting that message. Asking for sheltering the skies for North-Fly zone, right? Which has really never happened in the form in which all Ukrainians around the world were asking. But these were some of the messages that we were promoting early on. And so informational front, because we have this newspaper is super important. We have some very important political observers and journalists from Ukraine who have column in other newspaper, we have local journalists. But, you know, as when the war started, we understood that there will be huge humanitarian crisis, which we see unfolding as we speak. And we had organized a major fundraising activity and we were sending the other sort of thing that we do the purpose of our humanitarian effort right now is to send these mini grants, you know, 3,000, 5,000, 10,000 to charitable organizations and volunteers in Ukraine on the ground, some of them in the war zones, you know, we were sending money to Harkiv, to Dnipro. Most of these funds go for women and children for people who need the most, the health the most. And we're continuing, we're continuing to fundraise. We're organizing concerts right now. You can go to our website, Hormata.U.S. and, you know, and see the list of, there's more than 50 organizations that we have been working with sending humanitarian aid. And there's also a tab for concerts, we're organizing this charity concert, all to fundraise, all to send humanitarian aid to those who are most vulnerable. We will definitely get into the concerts a little bit later, but we also know Hormata reviews the current war crimes and international human rights violations and then provides that holistic assistance to fellow suffering survivors in Ukraine. And we also know this week, there was a very important case where for the first time ever in Ukraine, they actually did punish a soldier for a war crime. It was actually a Russian soldier was sentenced to life in prison for shooting an unarmed civilian. And this was Ukraine's first war crime trial since the invasion. And that sergeant was then sentenced to life. And then another situation just happened where Ukrainian court found two Russian soldiers guilty of shelling civilian sites and sent them to 11 and a half years in prison. And this now is then the second verdict that's been handed down. Can you share some of the other war crimes that you've found that have been taking place so far? We've, God, there's, you know, we've been hearing about them since day one, but most of them, we have really uncovered when Ukrainian forces have liberated Bucha Irpin, those little towns around Kiev, in Chernihiv. And, you know, we all have seen the horrific images, right? We've seen the one CNN of a man who's going on a bike and he's just being shot or women with their hands tied behind their back being executed lying on the sidewalks or mother with a child lying on the sidewalk, right? Both being executed, these horrific images, but what recently there have been a number of reports that have been published already by Amnesty International, but Human Rights Warch, by United Nations and these reports by independent investigators and reporters, they go, they document these things, they collect evidence. So all these things are collected and later on will be prosecuted in the court. It's an international court. The International Criminal Court is already looking into this matter. We heard about this, right? Because these cases have to be brought to justice, but very significant, I would say in that regard, just this May was published this report. It's an independent legal, I hold it in my hands, I wanna show it to people, if people wanna research because this is very significant, big significance. It's an independent legal analysis of Russia's breaches of the genocide convection in Ukraine and the duty to prevent. And this was compiled by the New Lions Institute for Strategy and Policy. Three groups of experts participating in compiling this very comprehensive report. Legal experts, there were some 35 plus PhD professors who were specifically experts on the subject of genocide and as well as independent investigators went in and looked at the body of evidence and linguists who have recorded the testimonials of the victims of the survivors. And the result, the finding of this report is quite damning because it says that the legal threshold of a serious risk of committing genocide in Ukraine against the Ukrainian people is met. And that there is a legal responsibility on the state's part of this convention against genocide which I believe was signed in 1954, if I'm not mistaken is to prevent and take any action possible to prevent further genocide against civilians in Ukraine. And when I was preparing for this report, I read this report, but I was reading also all other reports and when you read the information about these horrific crimes that were committed, they're really gut-wrenching. Your blood almost boils that atrocities like this could be happening. And it's even difficult for me to say and retell you some of these stories, but I have to. We have to because really, so that people around the world understand that at this time and age, in 2022 that never again is happening now. And I'll just bring you some examples that really sort of stirred me to the core. In Bucha, for example, there was a case and this is in this report and this was reported by the Ukrainian ombudsman who's the defender of human rights in Ukraine. There was a case of 11-year-old boy who was raped by a Russian soldier and his mother was tied to a chair so that she was forced to watch. There was a case, and I think there's probably a prosecution coming for this soon. There was a woman in Bucha, two Russian soldiers came to her house, they killed her husband and then she was repeatedly raped while her son was hiding in the nearby room. She managed to escape on the Ukrainian occupied territory but this is just two examples. If you read on, there's another example where 25 girls in Bucha were repeatedly raped and they were held for 25 days and the message that was delivered to them by the Russian soldiers is we're gonna rape you that many times so that you will never want to have sex again with men so you don't have Ukrainian children. And again, this is all documented, there is another very horrific case of about 350 people that were held in the basement, pretty much captive. 70 of them were children, five of them were toddlers and they were kept in the basement in inhumane conditions. There were no place for them to lay down. There was no toilets, people had to use buckets. They practically had no food, no water, they couldn't step outside. 10 people died during that ordeal, all the people because people were developing illnesses as they speak, the cases of two twin brothers, 17 years old, just being executed, shot on the street together with their friend, 18 year old. There was another case and I have all these names. This is all evidence now, 14 year old boy who was playing soccer on the street, his brother came out to grab him, to bring him home. His brother was shot in the leg and was trying to get back to the house and they shot the 14 year old kid. So things like that that you read about and you really think, how can this be happening? This is happening to civilians, people who have nothing to do with the military. It's just really horrific crimes against humanity. These are war crimes because they conducted against civilians. If we take it one step further, it's the mass graves that have been discovered in Bucha, in Chernihi. And I have to speak about this because I think this is very important topic. Please remember that there is a very large territory in the Eastern and Southern Ukraine that is occupied right now. And the predictions are, and this is what people who are on the ground, they predict that there will be 1,000 Buchas discovered when ultimately the Russian soldiers will recede and independent investigators will go in and take a look. This is happening as we speak. They are kidnapping Ukrainian activists, journalists. Apparently they have black lists compiled when they come to the territory and somebody who had even any relationship was pro-Ukrainian activist, journalist, served in the Ukrainian army. They grab these people, they disappear, they torture them. There's records of horrific torture. Again, that Russians are inflicting on Ukrainian civilians. It's really mind-boggling. When you read these reports, it's hard to maintain for me your sanity because it's been 77 years since we've been witnessing the atrocities during the Second World War and now 77 years later, it's that never again is here and in such horrific forms that it's really difficult to digest. But... And the points you're bringing up, especially you being there in San Francisco, we know that 77 years ago on June 26th, the world met in San Francisco, to create the UN Charter to make sure that never again was not only a political promise, but a reality. And the Ukrainian prosecutor general has been looking at many of the cases that you brought up and they also point out that Estonia, Lapin, Slovakia will be part of that joint effort along with that international criminal court. And another multilateral initiative which directly supports ongoing efforts by the War Crimes Unit of the Office of the Prosecutor General of Ukraine to docker and preserve and analyze evidence of war crimes is also being created known as the Atrocity Crimes Advisory Group, or ACA. And what you outlined is actually verbatim what is in the genocide convention. And after San Francisco in 1945 and 1948, there was the Universal Declaration of Human Rights on December 10th, but the day before December 9th was when the genocide convention was created. And article two has the five elements. And what's so important is you don't have to prove all five, it's just one. And of course, number A is killing members of the group, which you of course have documented and shared. B is causing seriously bodily or mental harm to members of the group, also clearly done. And then here's one aspect of C and D, delivery inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction and polar and part. And D, imposing measures intended to prevent burst within the group, which is some of the stories that you were sharing. And E is forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. So all five elements, not just one are clearly being met regarding genocide. And that's why it's so hard. I know you've been focusing on it since 2014 and looking at what's been going on, but most recently, we've really seen this intensification and the thought of seeing a thousand Buchas, of course, is so damning and alarming when we're here nearly 98 days into the conflict and almost eight decades later. Yeah, it's really horrific. I would say it's horrific. And as you said, all five points have been pointed specifically. More than 200,000 children have been forced to be deported from Ukraine. I think there were reports of that, right? So which clearly falls into the definition of genocide and there has to be a genocidal intent, which was also proven in this legal paper that I was referencing. And please remember that six countries already recognized this war as genocide against Ukrainian people. That's Baltic states, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, Canada, and I believe it's Czech Republic. And now I think it's turned for the United States to do the same. And this is a humongous task for other Ukrainian-American diaspora to recognize that what is happening right now is genocide against Ukrainian people so no one can ever deny it. And so that this can never happen again. And going back to maybe a thousand of Buchas happening right now, that's why it's so imperative right now that this war that Ukraine is waging is one quickly. And we've heard recently from President Zelensky, he said, if the world were to unite and really give Ukraine the weapons that it's bleeding for and has been asking for the past several months, and Len Liza is obviously a huge step in the direction. All Ukrainians are humongously grateful for that, I have to say, but Ukraine still lacks heavy weapons. The Ukrainian forces right now in Donbass are heavily outnumbered by weaponry and by sheer number of the soldiers that they are fighting. And if the world were really to unite and do and give Ukraine the weapons and provided what it really needs and asking for, this war could be one in matter of weeks, not month, not years. This is what the Ukrainian president Zelensky said. So then these atrocities stop, right? To leave these occupied territories are probably facing right now similar in humane conditions. We know they are from reports that we're getting. And the way to stop it is to win this war. There is no other way around it. And to win that war is a couple of things. Weaponry, Ukraine really needs heavy weaponry and there seems to be a consensus but sort of what we hear from the Ukrainians on the ground too slow, too little at a time. It's if we needed those weapons, we needed yesterday to defeat the Russians. And I also wanna breach another very important topic in addition that Ukrainian-American diaspora should really push the US Congress to recognize this was genocide. Another one, very important one is to recognize Russia as a state sponsoring terrorism. There are other countries, I think four other countries that are falling for that category, Syria, North Korea, Iran and Cuba. And I think there is a law that has been introduced already into the Senate by a couple of senators. And I think it's very important to pass that law because companies and individuals as we find out finding loopholes against the sanctions. And by imposing that status, it would in effect close many of those loopholes. And also it would further the effort to further isolate Russia on the global state. So... On the global scale, we've definitely seen that taking place. We know Davos just took place recently. And normally if you're at Davos at the World Economic Forum, there's normally the front promenade you're greeted by the Russia house. And that Russia house no longer exists. It was converted into the quote, Russia war crimes house. And it featured photographs taken in Ukraine over the course of the conflict, looking at exactly what you shared. Rates, executions, and other atrocities. And in that house, that's really where people gathered to look at what should happen going forward. Also, I believe Poland's head of state just recently visited as well and really in Davos. That was really one of the main points at the Davos really World Economic Forum was looking at that conviction in the West and focusing on the importance of standing against dictators. And most importantly, the heinous war crimes taking place today. Yes, I was also watching the news about the Economic Forum at Davos. Russia was not present there. And, you know, I think it was very symbolic that the house where they previously, where they previously always were participating was called the war crimes, Russia war crimes. And you probably heard that there was really, there was a lot of effort to discuss what will be like to rebuild Ukraine, please, because we cannot forget the damage that was done to Ukrainian economy is enormous. The Eastern, the Southern part, which is the industrial part of Ukraine, it's pretty much destroyed. We're talking about, you know, to rebuild the country, it will take hundreds of billions of dollars to rebuild Ukraine and it's gonna take years. It's really horrific, you know, as I say these things. And there were talks about martial plan for Ukraine, right? Martial plan because in some regard, well, we know that in all regards, Ukraine is the one who's defending freedom right now, defending freedom on the global stage, you know. And so, you know, just going back to one more point, I think that is important when we talk about genocide and war crimes. I think not many people maybe know about this or maybe know about this, but just recently, there was a Twitter from Wes Clark, the retired U.S. general, and he was really asking his friends in the U.S. to speed up the delivery of MLRS systems, the artillery system, HMRs, that can shoot artillery longer range than what Ukrainian military currently has because Russia is using these weapons. They are called thermobaric weapons or sometimes they are called vacuum bombs. And these are really the weapons that should not be used in a conflict. You know, using these weapons could be qualified as a war crime under the Hague Convention of 1899 and 1907 because it basically suckers up all the oxygens. If the windows are not sealed out, it has these horrific bombs, have a chance to basically permeate everything that is not closely sealed and cause horrible death and destruction, destruction pretty much to civilians. And they are using right now, this is what Wes Clark was saying, Russians are using these bombs right now in eastern Ukraine to ruin the villages. So that's another thing, you know, it's another sort of unfortunately check mark or whatever you want to call it, line item, which is a war crime, crime against humanity and it's unfolding as we speak. And you know, I cannot hone in again on the point that this has to be stopped, right? This has to be stopped sooner than later. The more this conflict drags on, the more butchers we're going to be discovering, the more civilians are going to be killed, right? More than 4,000 civilians have been killed already and these are just United Nations, this is the number that United Nations discloses and there's always a small quote that's saying this is just the confirmed one. We suspect that the civilians death in Mariupol are more than 30,000 civilians, right? Today is the International Children's Day and the already 240 kids died in Ukraine that are confirmed. I'm not mentioning even the kids who have been wounded, who have seen, who have lost their limbs, right? I've seen, we've probably seen those horrific images of toddlers without the legs or the arms. So the way to stop this is to stop this war quickly and if the world were to unite and to provide Ukraine with the weapons that it need quickly, that it needs right now in the front line because there's very heavy fighting going on as we speak. No, as they pointed out, one of the Ukrainian soldiers quote saying they're just raining down metal on us and talking about the stench really of the death tolls rising with the separate temperatures rising as well and they described the tactics over and over again that they shell for several hours for three, four, five hours in a row and then attack and those who attack died and shelling and attack follow again until they break from soup again. So it's this brutal tragedy of unparalleled 73 and what we do have to look at and what you are trying to share is that we must really bring an end to this conflict as soon as possible and that more importantly that the world, even though it has united a great deal as we reach near the 100th day, it's important to make sure that Russia has held accountable for all of the war crimes. It's perpetrating that the evidence is gathered now so that we can make sure that it is never denied in the future. As we see too many times in history, those that commit the war crimes and tries to use the pen to then deny what has happened, denying what they've done and what the final part though is to really come up with the international system that make sure that never again will people from a sovereign nation be attacked by a larger power next door and trying to eliminate them. And I think one thing we can describe today is also the soccer team was able to win three to one, I believe. So they have one more game to win that they would qualify for the World Cup but they were there singing their national anthem and of course the national anthem has that important line still being there and the nation being alive. And maybe you can talk about that as we close out today. Yeah, and that was sort of a breath of fresh air, I think for many Ukrainians. It was sort of that break that they all desperately needed those were those two hours of happiness, I think as the President was saying, right? Because, you know, this is real brutal war that is going on right now, right? And just to have that chance to watch the Ukrainian team win and hopefully qualify for the World Cup, it really brought a lot of happiness, I would say to people. So thank you, thank you the Ukrainian soccer team for this. And I also want to thank you, Joshua, for giving me this opportunity because exactly it's getting close to a hundred days and maybe some people, we don't see that many headlines already, you know, all the news because it's sort of yesterday's news that already is going on for a hundred years. But it's important to keep it alive in the news and to bring to people all these stories of, you know, genocide or horrible atrocities so that, you know, people know we're really aware what is happening on, but more importantly that the world further unites, provides Ukraine what it asks for, right? Listen to the Ukrainian government. Listen to the Ukrainian president, what they need. Please provide them with what they need so that they can free the land and reach this weak victory for Ukraine. Right now it's a very tough fight. You know, Siberia Donetsk was pretty much the key city in Luhansk region, was pretty much taken by Russian forces precisely for that technique that you were describing, right? They shell everything. They cannot take, they just destroy it. If they cannot win it, they just destroy it and then come and on the ruins they put the Russian flag. That's what they've done to Mariupol. They could completely erase that city eradicated and they're doing the same now to Siberia Donetsk. So it's, you know, Ukraine needs all the support it can get on multiple fronts, informational front, right? Like us talking about it today. The military front, economic front in terms of communicating and again, thank you for giving me this opportunity to speak about it. No, and we thank you so much for making time and we also know the pro-List president, Duda made a visit to the Ukrainian parliament, one of the first heads of state to do that. And we know really the citizens, such of yourselves are the heroes living bravely in the present and looking forward with hope. And we also look forward to talk more in the future about the concert and other important work that's taking place. So thank you so much for making time and we will continue this conversation and thank you for creating community for Mata. Thank you very much. Thank you, Joshua. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.