 Welcome to the sports playbook where we discuss solutions to issues that impact sports. I'm your host, Angela Hazelett. Today's guest is Kelly Graves, the head coach for the University of Oregon Ducks women's basketball program. We're here to discuss winning in division one women's basketball, the challenges of success. Welcome Kelly. Angela, good to be here. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. All the way from Eugene, Oregon. Kelly, you have a history of being able to create a winning team to include making it to the elite eight and to the final four of the NCAA tournament. Tell us your secret of what it takes to coach one of the top women's college basketball programs in the country. Well, it's really simple. I hate to give out the secret sauce, but it's get better players than the than the other teams and and let them play. You know, I think there's there's really no secret, you know, that it gets done a lot of different ways, but but I think if you have number one, really great talent, you have number two, a culture of success, you know, one of where they can grow as human beings and basketball players, you know, I think and then just building relationships with with players and and your coaches and everybody involved in your program. I think those are just the most important things. I'd like to think that I'm some kind of an X and O genius, not the case. I have had great players and I let them play. Well, fantastic. And I know that, you know, a successful team probably makes recruiting efforts a little stronger. And so I think that that's also probably one of your secrets to the sauce. So how are you preparing for this year's NCAA tournament? Well, you know, I think we're going to be in it. But I mean, you wait until you hear your name. You know, I think the most important thing in coaching is not to look too far ahead. You know, we we we know that we want to go to the NCAA tournament. We always seem to do very well once we get there. We're the kind of program that always plays our best at the end of the year. But the reality is, man, we're just trying to survive today, get better today so that we can be better tomorrow. You have to do that in athletics. When you start looking ahead, that's when you get beat. That's when you lose sight of really what you need to be doing, which is getting better each and every day. So we never talk about three games down the line. You know, the only thing we're talking about now as a program happens to be UCLA, which is our next game. So you have to do that in this business. Staying focused on the ball, right? The only thing that you're promised is today. You're not promised tomorrow. And, you know, we live that the hard way in 2020. I had the best team in the country, as everybody knows. We we had, you know, three first round draft picks in that spring's WNBA draft. We were coming off a final four. This was the unit that was going to win it all. And we were playing so well at the end of the year. And then covid happens and we don't get to participate in an NCAA tournament. That's an opportunity lost, you know, forever. I still have a hole in my heart because of that. But in our business, you have to get over it. It's in our DNA as athletes and coaches, you get over it and you realize that, you know, tomorrow is not promised you. So make the most of today. That's definitely made an impact on everyone across the country. And so would you say what is your biggest challenge? The fact that you're not promised tomorrow or are there other? Is there another major challenge you face as head coach of the women's basketball program for University of Oregon? Well, I mean, obviously, as a coach, you have your challenges. You know, I'm a husband and a father, and that's always the most important thing in my life. We were talking before that, you know, this this coming Sunday, we play the number two ranked team in the country, Stanford. They're our biggest rival. And I'm going to miss the practice the day before the game because my son plays at Gonzaga University. He's a senior. It's senior night. He's being honored. I'm going to be there. I mean, that's something you just can't miss. Regardless of who you play the next day. And I'll be pulling back into Eugene about an hour before the start of the game. So, you know, those challenges aside, what I'm most concerned with are the challenges that my student athletes face each and every day. And it's not easy to be, you know, an intercollegiate student athlete. It's just not. They have so many things on their plates. So many people pulling and tugging at their time and and energies. They're still trying to be a good student, a good citizen, and they're trying to be a better basketball player. So, you know, that's really this time of year where where my concern lies more than anything. Absolutely. And I definitely want to get into talking about some of those challenges that some of your students face and you face. Let's just start with Title Nine because we are celebrating the 50th anniversary of Title Nine, which is landmark legislation that has improved access and opportunity for women's sports, particularly in college. Despite the legislation, gender inequity is still a problem. In fact, in the during the 2021 NCAA Women's Tournament, your athletes, the Dona Prince, was instrumental in calling attention to gender inequity through a video post that demonstrated that the NCAA did not provide women and men equitable amenities during their respective tournaments. As a result, the NCAA has been accused of gender inequity and prioritizing funding for men's championships over the women's championships. Can you tell us about this experience? Yeah, well, I think, you know, 50 years ago, you know, the the legislation, the Title Nine legislation, one of the most important pieces of legislation to come along ever. But still, 50 years later, here we are still struggling with, you know, with some of its realities and inequities slow to change. It's frustrating, quite frankly, as a coach of women's basketball. But yes, last spring in the NCAA Tournament, our bubble, one of my players who, if you don't follow her on social media, you should, because she is she's in an outstanding young person. I was so proud of her and her teammates for, you know, taking a chance, taking a risk, putting that out there. We had just a small weight room that we were that we were given as the women's tournament in San Antonio. And it was embarrassing, you know, a lot of people have a better gym in their homes. And and then when you look at what the the men got in their bubble in Indianapolis, just the disparity was so stark. And and anyway, Sedona brought that to to the attention of the, you know, the entire world really with just a short kind of humorous video, almost like this is incredible how amazingly inept the NCAA is on this. And I think because of the way she did it, I think it really got traction. She wasn't one of those persons that is always calling out the NCAA or whatever organization for the inequity. She was living it. She was a student athlete. She did it with a little humor, but really some stark reality. And, you know, and she made change. And what a powerful message to send. You know, these student athletes have a lot of a lot of pull. They have a lot of power and she used it and she used it for the betterment of all student athletes in particular women's basketball players. But listen, it transcended and they made changes in the softball tournament last year and all the other sports. So she brought it to their attention. Now, let's see if we can, you know, even even make it more powerful to change. I we're still not there yet, to be honest with you. It was a story in the moment and it started to fade a little bit. Some commissions have been formulated, but we still have a long way to go. Absolutely. Let's talk about that commission. So following this media scrutiny, the NCAA did commission a review and they discover there was systematic gender inequity issues. So what are your thoughts on the NCAA's response to adopt the March Madness branding for the Division One Women's Basketball Championships this year? And is that a step in the right direction? Is it enough? What are your thoughts on that? To step in the right direction, it's not enough. Now, I'm not eloquent enough on all the issues that we face, but we need to continue to make more steps forward. Seriously, it was but it was something and and and a good move, you know, forward, but just things like, you know, salary inequalities in in pro sports and and and even in in my profession and what we do, you know, I have the same job description, same responsibilities as my male counterpart, but the salaries aren't equal and there's certain, you know, and I'm I'm going to be better than most. So just across the board, I think there just needs to be continued support of change. We've got to stay vigilant in in, you know, showing the inequities that that we see each and every day. That's the only way change is going to be made. And so again, I'm really proud of my student athletes and Sedona in particular. She became a media star because of it and handled it so well because she was knowledgeable about it, be passionate about it and see, not afraid to be out there. And was she afraid of what she had helped build her brand was did she build her brand? Well, there you go. It helped her personally as well as helping others in in the sports. She had she didn't have any fear of any retaliation or retribution. She she just thought this is the right the right path and went for it. You don't know Sedona like I do. She has no fear of anything. That's what I love about her. She's one of the most real people that I've ever met. And so it's to the core who she is. And like I said, I'm really proud of her. I'm I'm proud that we have the kind of culture that our student athletes don't hesitate in speaking their minds and speaking out because they know that I have their support or that. Wait, they know that they have my support. Well, that is very critical. And are there other instances you mentioned salary concerns, opportunities, things like that, but any other gender and equity issues that really are plaguing women's basketball right now? You know, I hate I don't really want to throw darts. I mean, you know, I'm I'm blessed to be in a position that I am. You know, and I've been blessed coaching as a head coach of both Gonzaga and here at the University of Oregon, where I have supportive administrations and our budgets are the same. You know, almost everything that we do is the same, but but we're also the marquee sport at the university. You know, my team is selling a 12,000 seat arena out more often than the men do. Wow. It's, you know, so basketball is a big deal here at the University of Oregon and my program. So so I really don't have any complaints here. But broadly, yes, far too many of our women's basketball coaches are underpaid, especially when it comes to their male counterpart. So it could be three million on the men's side and 450,000 on the women's side. That's just not right. They have the same job description. They do the same same job. A lot of them draw as well as the men. That's always the one that they'll come back and say, well, the men draw more. Well, they don't in my case, you know, and and that shouldn't be. That shouldn't be the reason, you know, well, there's more interest. Well, how do you gauge that interest? Social media interactions. I mean, what are we talking about here? And so I think we just got to we got to stay on it. We can't be silent. And when there are inequities, I need to stand up to my, you know, brothers and sisters who are coaching women's sports and say, hey, listen, that's not right and put some pressure on the people that need to to hear it. Well, thanks. Thanks for sharing that with us. Let's do a little shift to talking about COVID. It's been plaguing all of us for a couple years. And it's notably impacted sports. So can you give us just a quick inside look and how you've dealt with restrictions for your programs? I think things have loosened up a little bit, but how has that impacted your coaching? Well, it still does, quite frankly. We we've, you know, had players miss games and miss practice and miss time because that they tested positive. It's made kind of getting to, well, it's better now. I mean, last year, last season was, you know, it was awful. It was an awful experience for everybody. Nobody had fun. And, you know, we were getting tested every day. We didn't know if our next game was going to be played or not. And we couldn't we were in a we're in a liberal state. Therefore, we were conservative when it comes to, you know, COVID-19 protocols. And so I was unable to practice with my whole team at times. They were wearing masks through January. Other states didn't have those same kind of issues, you know, because of their politics. And so I felt we were at a disadvantage sometimes. But, you know, but we got through it best we could. And we made the best of it. This year, the standards have relaxed a little bit. But still, you know, that the mental health issues that I think have come up because of it, the pressures that some of these student athletes, you know, have because it's just it's different. Their world is a little bit different right now because of the COVID thing. But again, I have to be strong as a coach and help us get through it. Absolutely. And I do want to get into talking about that mental illness. I think you bring up a really good point there. But, you know, in regards to the COVID-19, are there any extra precautions or strategies that you've used that maybe have gone above and beyond what is required of you to keep your staff and players healthy and safe? No, not really. I mean, I don't know what everybody else is doing. So, I mean, we're still extra precocious here. I still wear my mask during practice, even though everybody on my team has been double vaccinated and boosted. So everybody in our circle, all our managers, our coaches, our trainers, strength and conditioning people. Everybody, we have our own little bubble, but at the same time, you just don't want to take that risk. So I still do it. No, you know, the honest truth is self-disclosure. I don't think I handled it as well as a lot of coaches did last year. And I don't really have any anecdotal evidence to say so. I just myself really struggled through the whole thing and still do, quite frankly. Because it's, you know, I've been coaching, this is my 36th year, I think, as a college coach. And it's still maybe my second most difficult season ever because it's still a little bit better than last year, but there's still issues. So when you say you didn't handle it as well, what would you have done differently? I don't know. That's the whole thing. I think I would have relaxed a little bit more. I think I took a lot of things seriously. I didn't want to cut any corners because I knew people were watching, especially in this state. And I let it get to me because I love the game so much. I love developing relationships with players. We love doing team activities, none of which we could do. So it made going to work every day less fun, you know? Because nobody was happy. And instead of me trying to at least fake it till you make it, I wasn't faking it very well either. So I think I became a little bit more down about everything. And I'm a glass half full guy by nature, but I didn't practice what I was preaching all the time. And when you're around, student athletes, you're around a lot. You're around my team and my coach is more than I am my own family during the season. They know, they can tell. And I didn't do a good job of hiding it. I'm not sure many of us did a good job of hiding it. And if we did it, you know, it probably affected us like quite significantly. But in my profession, in my profession, they expect me to, you know, we lose, OK, how do we get better and how can we win tomorrow? That's what they're expecting and looking at me for that kind of, because I have a lot of experience. I've coached well over a thousand games. You know, I've been a head coach for almost 900 games in college. That's old, right? That's a lot. So I should have that experience. And I was living through something for the first time, just like them. I didn't know. I didn't have the answers all the time. And that frustrated me and got me down. Absolutely. And how did you go about recruiting in a time period when games weren't happening or traveling's restricted? How do you recruit athletes for your future seasons? You mentioned in the very beginning, you know, having a great pool of athletes is what equates to your success. So how do you recruit in during a pandemic? Well, we didn't. We weren't allowed to be on the road. That was an NCAA rule. So we couldn't go face to face and meet people. And that's one of my strengths as a coach. It's also gives me an opportunity to evaluate somebody. When I'm in their home in a home visit, I get to know them. I get to know who they are, what makes them tick. I get to know their families. I get to see how they treat their parents. All these things I'm evaluating, I didn't get a chance to do it. We did it a lot on Zoom and it's just not that personal. And so it made recruiting difficult, quite frankly. And I think we suffered for it. We ended up taking a couple of players that I had never met. I based it on some statistics and a little bit of what I'd seen them play. But had I visited them, had they come in and visited my campus, which they weren't allowed to do, I may have realized that this isn't a real good fit for us. When you're put in a program together, your fit is very important. You want people that have your same goals, same aspirations, the same vision that you do. And that was hard during the COVID era because we just didn't have that time to get to know them. Can't replicate that in person experience. You can't. Are there any changes that you think will survive the pandemic? Anything that you think, wow, this is great, this works, are there any strategies that you would carry past the pandemic? Yeah, I actually like the Zoom because you can include, I've always FaceTimed recruits and that's great. But now with the Zoom, you can actually share things. You can PowerPoints or you can have multiple people on. So you can in essence be FaceTiming mom, dad, coach, student, athlete, everybody. So that actually has been pretty good. I wish I would have bought when this first pandemic started, I wish I would have bought a little Zoom stock. I may not be coaching right now, but yeah, there's some other things that I think, I just think the realization that every moment you have together is special and powerful and you need to make the most of it. To me, that's what came out of this the most because we always use injuries as an example. So-and-so gets injured and they're gone for the rest of the season. You see it on my team, you see it on other teams and you always try to talk to your players. That's why you need to just make the most of every moment because you never know when it's taken away. And I think the pandemic that, you know, when we were all shut down, I that was a, you couldn't have had a better example of having, you know, everything taken away. And so appreciate every moment that you have together, love each other and be there for each other at all times. Absolutely. Let's get back to what you were talking about before about mental illness. I mean, there's just a societal shift and where young people, even some notable athletes are willing to admit they have a mental illness or they're struggling. Division one athletes face a lot of pressure when they're subject to public scrutiny and the expectation to win. So how is this concern with mental illness either changed or influences your practices or your coaching style? Well, you know, I've evolved and this is a good example for anybody who is gonna be listening to this. I don't care how old you are, you can still evolve, you can still learn, you can still do things differently. If you would ask me 10 years ago about mental health, those issues, I would have said, you know what, rub some dirt on it, you know, toughen up, you know, go talk to your best friend or something like that, it's real. I've seen it, it's real. Even among the elite athletes, and let's face it, I've been blessed to coach some of the most elite athletes in my sport, in any sport, Olympians, right? And you just, you have to understand more as a coach. I have to get deeper with them. I can't be a superficial, can't be all task related. I've got to get to know them, get to know what makes them tick. I have players on my team right now going through that. And sometimes it's difficult to manage. I make sure that at least once every two, three weeks, I'm encouraging people to go see a professional, you know? Go talk these things through. And then my assistant coaches have been a huge lift during this time too, because they have made me aware that no coach, you can't just brush it under the rug. You've got to deal with the head on. I feel for these young people, these student athletes, there's a lot of pressure on them to perform and succeed. Social media has made everything even, you know, more pressure filled. The opportunity for people to get onto any kind of a medium and just blast young people for their lack of good play or, you know, whatever the case may be, it's just, I don't understand that part. I don't understand what makes people feel they can do that. So I'm learning to be much more aware of my student athletes' mental health and not just their physical health. How do you coach your athletes through that if they are following social media, if they hear comments? How do you get them past that and through that? Yeah, it's difficult. I've told them, you know, don't read what people say, I don't, that's something I do. As soon as the season starts, I get off all social media in terms of reading comments and that kind of thing. But it's part of who they are now, you know. All you can do is just let them know that they're loved or cared for, that you're there for them. And if they need anything that you can, you'll do, I'll do whatever I can do to help them. But I'm not a professional when it comes to, you know, the mental side of things. So I'll encourage them to go see somebody that can really help them more. But all I can do is love them and be there for them if they need anything. And you mentioned you were struggling during the pandemic. So what do you do to take care of your own mental health and that of your staff? Drugs. It's a joke, come on, it's a joke. You know, thank goodness I have a wife who is, you know, my rock and rely on her, same with my three sons. They're all in the basketball world. And then I have a great staff, you know. I have five full-time employees that work with me. Three coaches, a director of basketball operations and a creativity director. And I rely on them a lot. I rely on my colleagues. I have friends that have been coaching with me a long time that are all over the place. You know, four of my former players or coaches or division one head coaches. I'm always running things by them. I think that everybody needs to have. Those people that they can rely on. I call it my board of directors. You know, when I make a life decision, I talk to my board. You know, those people that can help me and love me and are gonna want, you know, the best for me. So we all need those people. And if you don't have them, call me. Hell, I'll help you. I'll be there for you. What an offer. That's amazing. That's really great advice. I think having that support is really important. What final words can you share on what it takes to cultivate a winning division one women's basketball team? I think love for the people that you work with. I don't use that term loosely. I think number two is consistency. I can't love them today and be different tomorrow and different the next consistency I think is really important in everything that we do. And then, you know, with me, it's think big picture. Think big picture and then act in the details. Those two can go together, you know. You have a vision of where we want to be. So every day, what kind of details will lead us to where we want to be? I'm not a huge goal setter. I think the goals, I think they limit you sometimes as much as they help you because, you know, but I think just a vision of where you want to go and then just every day, climb that mountain just a little bit higher, you know, one or two more steps. That sounds like a coach cliche, doesn't it? I love it. I love it. But it is the truth. I swear to God, Angela, it is the truth. That's how in my profession, you have to do it. Absolutely. Well, I really appreciate you sharing with us. You're kind of not so secret, secret sauce of creating a successful team, talking with us about gender inequity, COVID, mental illness. We've had really quite a range of conversation here. So thank you for your insight into these challenges of success to winning in Division I Women's Basketball. And thank you to our viewers for joining us today on the Sports Playbook. Our next episode's guest is Ryan Fitzgerald from Indiana University Bloomington who will discuss collegiate intramural sports. We will see you then.