 Good morning. Aloha. My name is Mark Shklav and I am the host of Law Across the Sea. And today we are talking with Michelle Chen and this is part two of ThinkTech program. Part one, Michelle spoke with Jay Fidel and talked a little bit about doing business in China. Today we are going to talk with Michelle about what it is to be a lawyer in the history of law in China. And welcome, Michelle. It is good to see you as always. Thank you. Good morning everyone and thank you for having me here. Michelle, you are here on a three month program and you are about two months through the program now. Are you having a good time? Yeah, very much. Is it fun to be here? Yeah, it is very enjoyable and I like it here. We have a relationship with the Suzhou Bar Association. You are from Suzhou in China. Yes. And the Hawaii State Bar has a relationship with Suzhou Bar. Yeah. And so our program has Suzhou lawyers coming here for three months and sort of being embedded with local law firms and lawyers and learning a little bit about law in the United States. And this is your second program on ThinkTech, right? That is right. I did it once with Jay and that was a wonderful experience. Do they have these type of programs in China for lawyers or for anybody? Do they have any type of sort of public service, live stream programs where you come and talk? Actually, not for my aware of because I don't know any of this kind of independent and nonprofit cooperation as a media platform in China. We are not in my city. What do you think about it? What do you think? It's nice. I think it's a fresh speech, right? You can make your audience and you can express what you want to share with your audience and it's nice. When you go back to China, will you show your friends and colleagues and clients this program, these programs? Yeah, I will. Now, here's my next question. If Jay Fidel and I went to Suzhou, could we do this program in Suzhou with some lawyers there? What do you think? Yeah, we can, but not as a free media platform as this, I think, because we don't have it. But I think we can make a program with local TV station because all the press and media platforms belong to the local TV station. Maybe we can have some arrangement like that. Let's plan on doing that sometime. Yeah, that would be great. Now, I want to talk a little bit about the background of lawyers in China because it's something we really don't know too much about here in the United States. What is the history of lawyers in China? I mean, we know in our system that we've had lawyers for quite a while for at least a few hundred years. Yeah. How about in China? Actually, I think the first lawyer in Chinese word, lawyer means the Buddhist monk who explained Buddhist rules in the Chinese word. But in ancient days, there's lawyers, not lawyers, if people want to make a claim, they need to write their plan. But some people cannot read or write. So they would have to write a complaint to submit to the authorities and to ask for a judgment. But at that time, some people, they don't read and they don't write. So they'd have to go to the Buddhist priests. But there are some educated men, they play as a role as litigation lawyer and they go to that kind of people and they can help you to write the complaint and to give you legal advice because not everybody know about the law. And also they can represent you in front of the judge and the authority. So that character could regard as a very old litigation lawyer. Okay. So you say that's about a Buddhist monk. And how long? I mean, you say ancient times. What do you mean by that? How many years ago? We know a very famous lawyer as our first litigation lawyer like 2,000 years ago. That person's name is Deng Xi and now he's the only and the first litigation lawyer we know in the history. But he ended bad because he killed by authority. Because you know the lawyer at that time is they don't they less respected. And I think there's a risky job because the government and the don't want them to help people to make argument. And also from the ordinary people, they see lawyers like because they most of a criminal case, right? If they find a lawyer to help the criminals, they see they speak to the bad people so they don't have good reputation. But this first lawyer 2,000 years ago was standing up for people. Yeah. He was trying to help people. Yes. That's maybe not a bad thing for a lawyer to be known for. I mean, obviously you say the government didn't like him in 2,000 years ago. Yeah. But maybe he was doing something good. Maybe that's a good thing for lawyers to have in their background that he was helping and defending and trying to do something positive for people. Correct. That's why everybody remember him and admire him for all those years. But after that, we don't know any famous people to do that work as a career. I think the first modern meaning lawyer came to being in 1912 is after the Sun Yixian set up the new country for China. Sun Yixian set up a new country in China. Then right after that, they become registered lawyers. So let me understand. So maybe we have a history in China that a couple thousand years ago, we have a famous lawyer who stood up for the rights of people who is very admired. Is he still admired today? Yes, I think so. Okay. And then maybe through the dynasties or the imperial period, not so much. Yeah, not so much. There's no career or profession raised during all these years. So then we have Sun Yixian come into power in China. And we are very proud of him here in Hawaii, as you know. Yeah, we do it too. Because he had a lot of his growing up and maybe he learned a little bit about lawyers here. Yeah, maybe. And so what did he set up? Or what did he establish? This was in 1910. He set up a new country in China. It still exists in Taiwan. But now, you know, there's two systems in China. One is in Taiwan. It's established by Sun Yixian. And another one is in People's Republic of China. It's in mainland. So it established from 1949 by Mao Zedong. Okay, so in 1910, Sun Yixian, how did that affect lawyers? What did it mean for lawyers? The profession of lawyers from 1910 till Mao. What happened in that period? In that period, lawyers get licensed. It's like from central government, they reject the four lawyers to practice. It's a modern meaning of practice. They help people to make claims, to give legal advice, write documents for people. It's a modern meaning of lawyers. So more or less like the Western idea of what we have here. Yes. And Sun Yixian, was this his concept or was this his type of government? Or how did these ideas come in? I think, you know, for that, when they set up the government structure, they copied some idea from the Western side. Because most of the leaders, they were studied overseas at that time. And when they go back to set up a new country, they start with learning for some modern system. So the judicial system is what they learned from the Western country at that time. I think the lawyer system is copied from Western country as well. So they sort of adopted this Western idea. And that was for a few years under Sun Yixian. And then what happened after that? After people of Republic of China established... Mao. Mao Syedong? ...1949, the system stopped because all the lawyers moved to Taiwan. And in mainland China there are no lawyers. Oh really? Yeah. The system stopped. And after that, there's a very short period in fifties, there's few lawyers practice, and it's all work as government lawyers for few years. But then it completely stopped because of the Cultural Revolution. And after the Cultural Revolution, the lawyer has a career restart, I think it's in 1979. So from a period of time, from 1949, the idea of private lawyers was not in favor? No, there's no private lawyers in China. No, not in mainland China. And I wasn't aware that they all went to Taiwan, which might be good for Taiwan. Some people may not think so, but to have lawyers that may help with commerce and contracts and relationships in trade. And so what would happen in the interim from 1949 until quite recently, 1979, you said? How were legal disputes handled? How did, how were problems handled? There was no private lawyers? No private lawyers, no government lawyers. They don't handle by lawyers, they handle by authorities. You know, the authorities, they help with everything. They don't need lawyers to help with that. When you say authorities, you mean the government? Government, yes. So they do have courts, though, but they don't have lawyers. And that would be how things would be resolved, would be through government, maybe mediation or arbitration or something like that? I think the government will make the decision on a dispute. And there's very few disputes could put to the court. And the time is, during the Cultural Revolution, you know, every system was destroyed. It's not in order. So that is a very special experience. So after that, things started over, maybe? Is that a correct way to say it? I think so. And they started to think about private law or having lawyers work in China? Or is that, would that be a fair statement? Yeah. First of all, they started to establish for some, established the department. It's called the Legal Consultant Department in Every Judicial Bureau. Yeah. Then that will all government lawyers. Okay. Now, I want to talk a little bit more about that. We'll take a little break right now. Okay. And then we'll talk a little bit more about that. And I also want to talk about how you became a lawyer. Okay? Yeah. So we'll take a break right now. Thank you very much. Hi, I'm Stacey Hayashi with the Think Tech Hawaii Show, Stacey to the Rescue, highlighting some of Hawaii's issues. You can catch it at Think Tech Hawaii on Mondays at 11 a.m. Aloha. See you then. Think Tech Hawaii, Asia in reveal. I am Johnson Choi, the host. Looking forward to see you next month, December 15, Thursday, 11, right here at this channel. Aloha. Looking to energize your Friday afternoon? Tune in to Stand the Energy Man at 12 noon. Aloha Friday here on Think Tech Hawaii. Hey, how you doing? Welcome to Abachi Talk. My name is Andrew Lanning. I'm your co-host. And we have a nice program here every Friday at 1 o'clock on Think Tech Studios, where we talk about technology and we have a little bit of fun with it. So join us if you can. Thanks. Aloha. We are back with Michelle Chen, a lawyer from Suzhou, China. And she has been telling us about the history of Chinese lawyers. And Chinese lawyers have been around for 2,000 years. And they've been helping people and being punished for it at times. But it seems to be something that in China, generally speaking, Michelle, are attorneys well thought of in China? Do people think attorneys are good? Do they do a good job? What's the general feeling about attorneys in China? I think because lawyers are not a big group in society, many people don't meet a lawyer in their entire life. But for the people who know lawyers well, I think they find people, they find lawyers well respected and reliable. For those who have negative reviews on lawyers, I always find it's on the individual lawyers. It's because the performance of individual lawyers is not based on the group of the bad reputation of the lawyer's group. I find it's okay. Now, you said that around 1979, things changed a little bit. Previously, there had not been private lawyers or government lawyers, really. What happened? From 1979. They first had some government lawyers. At that time, mainly they deal with criminal cases or divorce, the civil case. They all litigation at that time. But soon after 1988, it started to have private firms. So not that long ago? No, not that long ago. So we catch up fast. Right. We skip for a while, but we catch up fast. What was the motivation to have private lawyers? Why did that, after many years of no lawyers, no private lawyers, what prompted China to allow or to now think about private lawyers? You know, there's an open gate for China after the Cultural Revolution. And after the open gate, the transaction got complicated. And it needed to do transaction from all of the world and even between each of the companies. And that will be a huge demand of the lawyer getting involved. So there was a need for lawyers because of trade? Yes, because of trade. The economy demanded it? Yes. So it's good to know that people need lawyers, isn't it? Yes. So that was 1988. Yeah. They started to have private law firms? Yes. Okay. How do you become a lawyer in China? What's the process? It's, you know, by the time I decided to become a lawyer before I got to the university, I actually, there's a role model for me. I have, we have a family friend who is a very famous lawyer and always, you know, read his stories, very, the legend. He's the first generation lawyer after the Revolution. And he's doing really good. Is he from Suzhou? No. He practiced in Zhejiang and he takes some position in the All-America Bar Association as well. So he's a role model for me and he likes me a lot. And he always talked to me, encouraged me. And then I decided I will go to law school and to become a lawyer. So I go to law school. So you, before you went to law school, you had to go to college first? You have a college degree first? Or do you, what's the process, schooling-wise, to become a lawyer? In China, law school is undergraduate level. So every student want to become a lawyer is you have to pass the entrance exam to university, to the law school, and you become an undergraduate student. And you have to achieve your bachelor degree. And then you pass the bar examination. Is that a four-year program? Four-year. Undergraduate law. And achieve your bachelor degree. And then you pass the bar exam. It's called National Judicial Examination. And you pass that and you have to complete the one-year full-time internship in a law firm. How do you choose the law firm? Or how does the law firm choose you? How do you find a law firm to do that? For me, I prefer to go to big law firms and you can learn better, right? And for my personal experience, my first job is to go to a big law firm in Suzhou. But the chance, I was lucky because I got a friend to help me and he introduced me into that. So you have to sort of ask the law firm to take you. Yeah. Do they have to take you? No. So it's up to the choice of the law firm? Yes. Okay. They don't have to take me. They have truth. It depends on your education background. It depends on the exam you take for their application. Okay. So then what happened after you go for one year? Then what happened? After one year, I'm licensed as a lawyer. Then I start work as an associate lawyer for a partner in that firm. That same firm that you trained in? Yeah, same firm. They agree with me to stay and I work as an assistant lawyer with a partner for one year. And after that, I become an associate lawyer. So that one year period is the second year that you were there? Yeah. So they're finding out more about you during that period of time before they hire you as an associate? No, they hired me after my internship. I see. And then I work as an assistant. It depends on what you can choose. You can work longer as an assistant. I see. And your teacher could choose you work longer. It can choose each other. And if you decide to become an associate lawyer, they won't stop you. And for me, I start to have my own client. So I decided to become an associate lawyer and have my own client. And after the fifth year, I take two years off to give birth to my son. Yeah. Two years old, I decided I had my master before I go back to work. So I take another one year to get my master degree. Now the master degree, that's a law degree also? Yeah. Master of Law. Master of Law. And after I finished my master degree, I decided to transfer my profession from a litigation lawyer. I was a litigation lawyer before. And I transferred to a non-ledigation lawyer. And I wanted to focus on the legal consultant of companies doing construction projects. And then I joined my current firm and I've become a first female lawyer. They don't have a female lawyer there for me. And now I'm only a female partner in the firm. Wow. You know, that raises a number of questions. So in China, mostly men lawyers are... Yeah. Is there equality? What's the numbers? It was most of men lawyers before, but now it's more and more women lawyers joined. But I don't know why, but most partners are male lawyers. That's the current situation. Is that changing? I think we... The same thing happens in the United States. We hear that too. Is that changing? Yeah, I think so. It's changing because now it's more women lawyers joined. So soon there will be more women partners come up. And you're the only female partner of your firm? Yeah. How many lawyers in your firm? We have 70 lawyers. 70. 70. Wow. Is it hard to become a partner or what does it take in China? What's the process? It depends on the revenue. It depends on the income you bring to the firm. And if you... The income you bring the firm, if it's in two years, if you reach the partner level two years in a row, if it's reached the partner level, then they will have a meeting, partner meeting, to discuss whether to let you join the firm as a partner. And once the partner meeting decided to invite you as a partner, then you can decide whether you choose to become a partner or not. And... So it's all about money? Yeah. Okay. That's interesting. But also in the partner meeting, we will discuss whether this person is fit on the company, the law firm's culture. Okay. So it's not all about money? Yeah. There's culture involved to internal culture of the law firm. Yeah. Do law firms have different personalities in China? Are they known for different things in China? Some law firms here may be known for certain types of cases in China. Is it the same? Or does everybody do the same thing? I think they actually do the same thing, but they actually have their different characters for lawyers and for law firms. For example, for our firm, we are a firm that's quite famous in our cities. We are quiet. We don't do advertisement, but we're doing good because we have a very lead in revenue for every year. We double for the second. We are the first. We are the top one. And our revenue could be doubled to the second. So we're quite famous of that. I want to just ask you a last question. Yeah. Okay. You mentioned that you gave birth to a son. How old is he now? He's 13 years old. 13 years old. Now, would you like him to become a lawyer in China? What is your feeling? I respect his decision all the time. It depends if he wants to become a lawyer. But I will feel if he decides to become a lawyer, I could give him more support. Okay. All right. Well, I'm glad to hear. Maybe someday we'll have him on this program. Thank you very much, Michelle. Thank you. Thank you for having me.