 While Vermont's legislature has pursued many efforts over recent years to begin to identify and address implicit bias, recognition of the urgency of this work has grown, particularly related to law enforcement. In response, the legislature is considering ideas on how police practices in the state should change, including policies on use of force, citizen oversight, use of body cameras, hiring and training of police officers and other relevant issues. We recognize there is much more work our state and nation need to do in recognizing and mitigating systemic racism beyond police and policy. We're committed to continuing a deeper dialogue with Vermonters about that work, and we will look for your participation in future conversations. I will now like to introduce Representative Sarah Copeland-Hanses. Thank you. Thank you, Representative Grad. And I also want to thank all of you for joining us today to give input into the work in front of us in August and September. Since I will be facilitating the meeting today, I wanted to share a few quick expectations and logistics. This is the first opportunity for the Vermont legislature to hold a virtual public hearing, and we're going to do our best to ensure that this Zoom format gives the public, the committees, and other members of the legislature the same opportunities to participate as if we were physically present at the State House. Just as if we were in the chamber, there are members of the Judiciary and Government Operations committees who are here at the Zoom table. We will call up registered participants one by one to share two minutes of testimony. As always, we're happy to have you share your written remarks if you're unable to get to all of your points in the allotted time. You can send written remarks to the committees via the legislative website on either committee page. Lastly, you will, you only see the panelists here as members of these two committees. However, there are many members of the legislature who have been following these issues closely and are watching today via YouTube. Now a few moments on the expectations for the hearing. I will be calling for the same decorum as if we were physically present in the State House. That means no signs or posters, no profanity or abusive language. Each participant will be required to identify themselves via Zoom. And we have that happening as folks are entering the meeting. I will call each witness and at the same time queue up the next person who's on deck so that you can be prepared. When it's your turn, staff will move you from attendee into the virtual witness seat. You'll have two minutes to speak. And for those of you who are in the Zoom meeting, you will be able to see the Zoom timer in one of the Zoom tiles, as you can see now. If you're calling in, I will do my best to make sure you hear your 30 second and 10 second reminders. You will then be moved back into the attendees gallery and we'll call up the next witness and attendees. You're welcome to continue to watch the meeting via the attendees gallery or you can close down Zoom and go to the YouTube page. But we recommend that you not do both of those for technical reasons. It will get garbled and confusing. As each of you are moved into the witness chair, I will welcome you with the following words. Thank you for being here. We will begin the timer when you start your remarks. I will give you a reminder at 30 seconds remaining and another at 10 seconds. Please try to wrap up your final remarks at that point. Go ahead whenever you are ready. And then the timer will start once we hear you begin your remarks. As I mentioned before, this is groundbreaking territory for us. We've never used this format for a public hearing before. But the urgency of this moment asks us to chart new waters because regardless of this global pandemic, we must bring Vermonters together to hear and understand each other on these important issues. With that, I will thank you again for being with us today. And I will welcome you to watch the next two hearings, which are going to happen on August 12 and August 16. I will now call up the first witness, Aileen Swankowski of Hartford, and also ask that Alan Quackenbush of Duxbury be on call and ready to go second. So, Aileen. Madam Chair, can I inquire about the live stream? I looked on the GovOps page and I don't see the live stream there. Is it on judiciary? Or is it maybe on, it is on judiciary? I believe it's linked on the judiciary page. Okay, great. Thank you. Aileen, thank you for being here. We'll begin the timer when you start your remarks. I will give you a reminder at 30 seconds and another at 10. And then we'll ask that you try to wrap up your final remarks. So go ahead whenever you're ready. Thank you. My name is Aileen Swankowski. I know it's an unusual kind of combination. I'm from Hartford, Vermont. I'm the chair of Hartford Committee on Racial Equity and Inclusion, and we have been in existence approximately three and a half years. We are concerned with how training does not happen within our state for our police officers, particularly in the area of the current anti-bias training. We've researched over several years, and we know that anti-bias training, it doesn't last. It's not effective. And I would like consideration that should happen where officers are put into real life situations where stress and their emotions can enter and any training that they receive would automatically normally disappear. So that's my concern is what we're not providing our officers to be able to deal with communities that they may not accept as looking like them or being part of their community because they function in a us versus them mentality. Therefore, something has to change and anything that our committee can do to help, we will, because we're a research arm, we will do what we can and we have tons of documentation to be able to present. Thank you very much for allowing me to speak today. Thank you so much for being with us today. Next up, we have Alan Quackenbush of Duxbury and on deck will be Jacqueline Posley of Burlington. And if Alan Quackenbush is not with us, we can go to Jacqueline Posley of Burlington. Hi everyone, my name is Jacqueline Posley and I do live here in Burlington. Thank you for listening to me today. Hope to be able to get through about three and a half points. I live, I have lived prior to Burlington and very rural parts of Vermont, including Goshen and London Dairy, and I can remember during those times attempting to file police reports or have access to reports that I've filed, and that's been extremely difficult for me in those more rural locations. So just being more open about how to file reports and how to access that information whether people are domestic violence or car accident or whatever the case may be in those more rural areas is extremely difficult. There are no websites for those police departments, some of them share police departments with other counties and just as someone who is new not only to the state but also to New England that was very difficult for me. So if we can make more public access to filing reports and into those filed reports afterwards, I think it would really benefit populations, especially in rural places. I know we have heard body cams 13 times over, but I think I would really like to stress that we need to make it mandatory for the entire state. I get the sense that it will be left up to departments and I think that that will be the ball dropped if we do that. So I would really like to stress making body cameras mandatory for all departments throughout the entire state. And then lastly, I'd like to address the training as well that our officers go through. I'm not sure about specifics when it comes to what the curriculum actually looks like, but I do want to put an emphasis on proper language as we address diverse populations, whether it be by park or trans or whatever the case may be that language is extremely important and could really help deescalate situations as we look into the future. And then just addressing as I advocate in the state of Vermont, I find it very difficult people really fight me on the fact that these biases do exist. So addressing these statistics and these numbers that are very real and ensuring that our officers know that they're very real. I'll follow up via email. Thank you. Thank you so much, Jacqueline. I appreciate you being with us. Now, I think Zia DeSantis is not with us. So I will ask Ryar Erickson to come and you may begin and the timer will start when you begin your remarks. Ryar Erickson of St. Albans. It's not been. We had you for a moment. I'm going to ask staff in the background to. Good. There we go. Can you hear me? I can hear you now. Thank you. Yeah. My name is Ryar Erickson. I want to thank you for the opportunity to address you today. I'm a founding member of neighbors for a safer St. Albans. I'd like to talk a little bit about SROs or school resource officers. They provide very little benefit to students or teachers. They don't generally keep schools safer. There's no evidence other than anecdotal that SROs help anything other than increasing a community's positive view of police. The negative aspects on the other hand are quite clear. Schools with SROs on campus are more likely to arrest students for age appropriate behavior. These numbers become all the more disparate when broken down by minority status. Black, indigenous and children of color, along with LGBTQIA identifying children and children with disabilities are far more likely to be arrested by SROs and their peers. A recent study found that black girls are nationally four times more likely to be arrested in school. And in Vermont, that number goes up to five times. One of the things you asked was for people of color to talk about how they want police to interact with their communities. But I don't really want police to interact with my community. I don't want community policing. I don't want police speaking to my kids, trying to play basketball with them, et cetera. Police need to earn the public's trust before they get to do that. And it's not the responsibility of the community to trust the police. It's up to the police to gain the community's trust. And among people of color and other minority groups, they don't seem to have done that. This brings me back to SROs. Our children's job in school isn't to make police look good as so many people in meetings I've sat through in the past few weeks have suggested. Our children's only job is to learn and it's our job to support them in that pursuit and allow them to feel safe. Consider the opinions of Vermont legal aid, Vermont racial justice alliance, the Human Rights Commission, the ACLU of Vermont, the NAACP, the advancement project, and other local and national organizations in doing something to remove law enforcement from our schools, especially from our elementary schools. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Erickson. I will now welcome up Catherine Brooks of Virginia and after her will be Abby German of Montpelier. So welcome Catherine. Your two minutes will start when you begin speaking. I don't see Catherine Brooks of Virginia. How about Abby German of Montpelier. Hi, can you hear me. Thank you so much for being with us today. You've got two minutes. Let's go right ahead. In 1777, Vermont proved itself to be on the right side of history when it became the first state to abolish slavery. Systemic racism unfortunately was not abolished and is upheld in many of our institutions, including law enforcement. The police is a violent, anti-black colonial institution that originated as slave patrols. Their primary mandate is to protect not citizens but property and to militarily enforce white supremacist capitalism. When it comes to the national crisis and policing, Vermont is not an outlier. In the past, black people are stopped and searched at disproportionate rates to white people. Our prisons have some of the worst racial disparities in the entire United States. Images of police brutality against people of color appear often and the officers are never held accountable. This is despicable and we must do everything in our power to stop the suppression and violence. To my view that the police must be completely abolished as well as abolishing prisons. Research shows that crime is a response to social conditions. So by defunding prisons and the police and redirecting that money into communities, violent crime is reduced and communities are uplifted. Possible solutions to societal problems excluding police and prisons include what are not limited to affordable housing, health care, employment, counseling, after school programs, trauma services and anti-violence programs. Now in 2020, it is time for Vermont to prove itself to be on the right side of history yet again. It is time to take a stand against the prison industrial complex and the racist and violent police institution. We must abolish prisons and completely abolish the police, leading the nation in its fight for racial justice and equality. Thank you. I yield my time. Thank you, Abby. Next, we have Matthew LaFleur, who I believe is joining us via phone. So Matthew, I'll do my best to give you a verbal 30 second and 10 seconds reminder. And your two minutes will begin when you start talking. Thank you, Matthew. Okay, I will. With me, we need to address more of racial disparity in Vermont because of people with disabilities really are at the forefront of these seniors and basically the vulnerable population of Vermont. With me, for me, it's an issue, an issue. I lived here for 25 years in Vermont. And to me, it's a very, very disturbing to see on a national level and on a local level that police are not very held accountable for any police of Vermont. It's not held accountable for the actions they take. And to me, like what for me is like the police like to try to get away with some of the stuff allegations and stuff, you know, for stuff that you know what that is provably for me, very disheartening to hear. But I think we need to do like more education training and more mental health service professionals on a job with them, make sure that they're actually doing what they're what they're supposed to be doing is to protect and serve the people not for money. They should be liable for the stuff they've done and held responsible for it. Thank you. Thank you, Matthew for being with us today. Next, we have Monica Ivanchic of Burlington and after her will be Jessica Laporte of Burlington. Go ahead, Monica. Thank you for being with us. Thank you for allowing me to speak. My name is Monica Ivanchic and I've lived in Burlington for the last six and a half years moved to the state from Wisconsin. My daughter attends Hunt Middle School, and I'm on my second term serving on Burlington School Board and I'm the co chair of the Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Committee for the last two and a half years. And my words today I'm right personal opinion, not those of the Burlington School Board. It is high time that we take a deep look at police brutality and violence in the US, especially in Vermont, particularly towards our population of color, our black and brown people. I would like to point out that on June 26. There was a New York Times article on police training in Germany. There, they require two and a half years minimum training, including studies on law ethics and police history. While here in the US in Georgia takes 11 weeks, or six months in New York City, I'm not familiar how long this is in Vermont but this is a deep concern for me, for someone who upholds the law in our country. And last but not least, I would really like to talk about police presence in our schools. Why do Americans feel that we need police in our schools to feel more safe. The last shootings are highly planned events, and even in Parkland, Florida, the cop that was at the school was not anywhere near. So, many of our students are traumatized by the side of a cop, especially by having a weapon on them in the school. So consider of these students and think also about what other countries put police in their schools. So, thank you for your time in Burlington we're making changes this fall that we're excited about. Thanks for listening. Thank you so much for being with us Monica next up we have Jessica LePorte of Burlington and on deck is when I say deck of Cavendish. Hi, this is Jessica LePorte. I was born and raised here in Vermont spent a good amount of time away and now have moved back and I'm living in the Burlington area. And I'm calling in today, both to present a couple of ideas and items that I support that are being promoted through a number of racial equity groups across the state. But also to, to state that, as was brought up at the beginning of the hearing that police reform is only one piece of the puzzle, and I want to push our legislature to truly explore what equity means and I am really encouraged by some of the new positions both at state at the state level, and in cities like Burlington to have racial or equity and inclusion departments. And I truly believe that by funding those and by staffing those out we can begin to imagine together a better future. Hi, in terms of police reform. At the end of the day, none of the of the measures that we can take in terms of military great equipment and techniques involvement of police and incidents or issues like this. It can be effective if qualified immunity still stands. It shields law officials who abuse or power from meaningful accountability. And we have seen how even our lawmakers who want to hold police accountable are curbed in their ability to do that because of a qualified immunity. I would like the legislature to consider strongly how we can curb the power of police labor unions who are effectively governing us, rather than our representatives governing them. So I just, I want to encourage that headline of qualified immunity, needing to be challenged and removed in this state. Thank you, Jess, for being with us today. Next, we have Hannah say deck of Cavendish and up after will be Steve Brower of St Albans. So, Hannah, when you are ready, go ahead. Hey, can you hear me. Yes. Thank you to the chair and committees for facilitating the space. My name is Hannah say that I am 25 years old and I have lived in Vermont my entire life. I like to begin by thanking everyone that has and will share testimony today and at the two future public hearings lived experience at the hands of systems that were never designed to protect us can be an incredibly heavy burden to carry and share. In 2011, my mother contested a ticket ticket in court because the Vermont officer that gave her the ticket was racist and inappropriate and in his behavior towards her. That stuck with me my entire life. I've been pulled over by sheriffs in my hometown. And one time even after I gave him my license and registration he continued to question where I was from. I felt safer protected by Vermont law enforcement or while in the presence of Vermont law enforcement. This winter I was driving a van with six white male passengers that was pulled over during the entire interaction with my hands placed visibly 10 and two on the steering wheel. I kept telling myself that if the officer did anything inappropriate and no one believes me. Maybe they would believe six white male witnesses. I believe that incremental reforms demonstrate that the voices of those most harmed and vulnerable are being heard defunding with the goal of a ball abolition is what will actually protect us. Because what I do know is that the presence of police has and will continue to harm black brown and indigenous community members and those who exist at the intersections of these and other oppressed identities 30 seconds is on government operations and on judiciary. If we must carry the burden of lived experience, the knowledge of our experiences in your action or in action should weigh heavily on your conscience. Thank you. Thank you, Hannah, for being with us. Next up, we have Steve Brower from St. Alvin's and after that Ricky Rosati of Brattleboro, Antarctica. Can you hear me. Yes, thank you. Hello. Thank you for inviting me. My name is Steve Brower. I'm the director of behavioral health at Northwest County and support services. It's a one of one of the 10 designated mental health agencies serving Vermont. We serve Franklin Grand Island counties. Wanted to share in the last five years, we've been piloting a model working with the Vermont State Police here in St. Alvin's and also the city police of embedding a crisis or crisis clinician within law enforcement themselves wanted to just share three points. One is to give you a sense of the kind of applications of the model. A recent example of a young of a youth or young adult on top of the building on its top edge who wanted to jump and the law enforcement officer on scene with our staff and the law enforcement officer actually de escalating the situation very well. But our person on scene being able to help facilitate a plan and also avoiding a hospitalization because that's what the person didn't need. We've also seen some really good experiences with the sheriff and sheriff's office in terms of evictions with individuals who have mental health issues and trying to prevent those from escalating and being proactive. We've been able to see some really positive results of being on the scene to tragedies such as suicide. There being recently a homicide and making sure people on the scene get what they need and working together. In terms of the model, what we've learned over the last five years for four years in the state police and five years in the city police is that you have to work within each culture of each law enforcement agency. We have a very similar model that we adapt and we also do some overlap with the sheriffs in the Swanton Police Department as we can. We found that having a provided dedicated to one location really accelerates the trust and connection with law enforcement and where they can work together and develop some meaningful connections. Overall, one of the things that we've really learned to is the value of the team to training model and being able to wear law enforcement and mental health training together and learn how to have more collaborative responses together. But overall, this is we see some real positive ideas with this model and its application and expansion would be would be beneficial and addressing some of the issues. Thank you. Thank you for being with us. Ricky Versati is not with us so next we will go to read Doyle of Burlington. Hello, good afternoon. Thank you representatives on committee for allowing me to speak today. For those that don't know my name is read Doyle. I had a case against the Burlington Police Department that went to the Supreme Court this past year. It's a record and records inspection. The reality is is that on June 17 of 2017 I witnessed five police officers come to Roosevelt Park in the old north end of Burlington. When I arrived at the park there was a tall officer who was arresting an African American teenager. And while the first teenager that I witnessed was getting arrested there were a number of other kids that came to understand what was happening. Instead of deescalating the situation. A couple of officers officers came to a number of kids that were there. And before attempting to deescalate the woman officer quickly threatened to pepper spray the group. If they did not comply and retreat from the area shortly thereafter an officer threatened more than one child verbally and made a comment along the lines you don't want to mess with me and took it to a whole another level by actually physically assaulting a young teenager. And he who was already retreating with his hands in the air. Although the child did not fall to the ground it was a sturdy push and the chest that caused that was uncalled for finally only being five to 10 feet away from the incident. I did not feel I did not feel unsafe see any behavior that would have led me to believe that the officer safety was at stake in any which way or form. Furthermore I know a number of these kids and I understand that the police have had to respond to complaints and balls in some of these kids. After the threats and assaults. I approached the officer to understand what why they responded the way they did. And the reality is is that the officer said that it really wasn't his problem that these kids came from a different socio economic issue. Yet these are officers of the piece the reality is is that you have black children are being criminalized without good cause because officers escalate and arrest as the first resort instead of the last. Officers or community liaisons need to be trained on de-escalation preventing implicit biases that lead them to escalate in particular with people of color. Thank you. Thank you read for being with us. Next up we have Joseph Coro of Fairfax and after that will be Megan O'Leary. So Joseph when you are ready. Yes Joseph go ahead. Perfect. Thank you. Hello and Bill. It states the definition of imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury means when based on fatality the circumstances a reasonable officer in the same situation would believe that person has the present ability opportunity and apparent intent to immediately cause death or serious bodily injury to the law enforcement officer or another person. It's impossible for anyone to know what the intent of a person really is police officers are not mind readers. One of the three things that officers look for when deciding to use deadly force is ability opportunity and jeopardy. You cannot ask officers to determine the intent of a person because they are not in their head. I ask that you remove intent or replace it with jeopardy. It also states that a law enforcement officer shall not use a prohibited restraint on any person for any reason. Please stop trying to write our laws while looking at Minneapolis. You choose to leave this language without having the exception for deadly force situations you will end up with for example an officer fighting for their life that cannot access their gun or anything else where they may have chosen to use a neck restraint in the past. They now can't instead they choose to stab the person they are fighting with or hit them with a blunt object several times. Tell me which situation is worse. Which one do you think has the likelihood of an officer being able to render aid and save you When bill 808 it states decision by law enforcement officer to use force shall be evaluated from perspective perspective of reasonable officer in the same situation based on the totality of the circumstances known to or perceived by the officer at the time. Rather than with the benefit of hindsight the totality of the circumstances shall account for the occasions where officers may be forced to make quick judgments about using force. The only thing I would say here is you should add some language stating the officer will be evaluated from perspective of a reasonable officer in the same situation with the same amount of experience. You cannot expect a four year officer and then compare them to a 10, 15 or 20 year officer. The amount of experience is substantially different and officers may act differently due to the amount of experience. Please amend these bills and finalize them with the state of Vermont in mind do not look to California or Minneapolis look to the state we live in. Please do not finalize these bills with motions instead finalize them with research and rational thinking. Please not on the hands of police officers by passing laws that will cause them to not be able to do their job safely and in turn not be able to keep the citizens of Vermont safe. Thank you. Thank you Joseph. Next up we have Megan O'Leary of Burlington. And after that, we will have Todd LaCroix of Burlington. Go ahead Megan is Megan O'Leary with us. Can you hear me? Yes, welcome Megan. Sorry about that. Thank you for having me. Public safety should not be placed at risk to save at risk to save money or to politically grandstand. Any investment from law enforcement should only happen when another entity is tried tested and ready to take on their responsibilities. It is irresponsible and reckless to try and improve public safety, reduce criminal justice spending and reinvest savings and strategies that can decrease crime, reduce recidivism at the same time. Decisions need to be informed and based on research as opposed to being made rashly as a reaction to national events during election year which is basically what 2019 does. Policies that are enacted need to be funded. For example, S29 states, it is the intent of the general settlement that law enforcement use de-escalation strategies first and foremost for using force in every community police interaction. De-escalation is more than a buzzword. It is a labor intensive strategy that requires a lot of resources, training and personnel. It needs to be recognized and treated as such before writing it into laws. The law requires that police de-escalate every situation but makes no provisions to fund training or provide resources. It also does not recognize not every situation can be de-escalated nor should it. Examples of this would be an active shooter situation in progress series assaults. I yield the rest of my time for the 152 officers that were killed in the line of duty. This is a 63% increase from the same time last year. Thank you. Thank you, Megan. Next we have Todd LeCroy of Burlington and after Todd will be Tomas Jankowski of Newport. Hello, can you hear me? Yes, thank you for being with us. My name is Todd LeCroy. I once was a respected person in Burlington until the Burlington Police Department showed up and destroyed my life in my home. You know, I was the only person, I guess, to get out of Waterbury in five days because it was such a clear-cut case of abuse, of police brutality. Except the problem is that Vermont didn't care. None of you cared. And so for the last nine years I've been dehumanized for my abuse, surviving it. Okay, and every time I have attempted to try to get justice, nobody cares. This is pandering, all right? If you really want to change something, start having the real conversation because what's going on, the problem is related to the militarization of our culture. Not just our police. Our culture. Our schools are militarized. Our police are militarized. It is the militarization that is the problem. I was so moved and disturbed by the police violence that I had experienced in my own community. I once made a movie with the Burlington Police. I praised them as one of the best community police in the country and I lived in ghettos. I lived in Pompano Beach in Fort Lauderdale. Okay, I had seen real racist police and I was disturbed, okay, at how the military had just overrun Burlington. And I started Occupy Wall Street. And let me tell you, you're not having a real conversation about the real criminals, the ones without badges, running around without badges, but causing trouble in our communities, the provocateurs, the undercovers, these people pillage, rape, they are drug dealers and you don't audit them. You don't oversee them. They steal people's intellectual property and then they ruin lives to defend themselves against being known for their crime. I would like you to do something. I would welcome you to submit any other comments in writing if you have other ideas that you'd like to share with us. Next up is Tomas Junkowski of Newport. Tomas, are you with us? Madam Chair, he's been moved over and unmuted, but isn't responding. I don't see him. We'll give another moment to see if he is able to respond. I see him in the panelists list, but perhaps he has walked away from his computer. I believe that Mr. Junkowski is the last witness on our list today, and so we will wait a moment and see if Mr. Junkowski responds to his call to testify. Mr. Junkowski, we are ready for you to share your thoughts with us. Tomas Junkowski of Newport, are you there? That is it for attendees here for today, and so thank you all for being with us, Representative Grad. Do you have any thoughts that you would like to send us off with before we close this public hearing? No, I just want to thank everybody for participating, and again, please feel free to send us your testimony or any other thoughts. And thank committee members and staff very much for joining us and especially staff for a lot of work to making this happen, so thank you everybody. Yes, so please, members of the public, as well as legislators who are here with us, please encourage folks to sign up to participate on August 12 or the 16th. We have had some tremendous staff support here in the background to make this public hearing possible, and it's a learning process, so we will take what works today and use it again for the 12th and the 16th and see if we can smooth out some of the wrinkles. So thank you so much for being with us today.