 And here we go. Good morning, everyone. Finally, we're here. Morning. We've got started. My name is Chris Morrison. My name is Jane Secker. We're the alt copyright online learning special interest group co-chairs. Yep. So here we are. This is what we look like on the big screen. Hey, we're delighted to be here. Yeah, very pleased. Again, yet again. So we will get back to that slide that I just had there, which actually gives us the title. Yeah. So what number it is? What number is it? Welcome, everyone who's joining us. And if there's any new time, first time people here who are about to find out what this is all around about. Number 67 after 67. Still going strong. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. And so what are we looking at today? We have copyright news. As ever, we have the main thing though today is Sarah Hammond joining us from sunny and cold Cambridge talking about the evaluation report that she wrote on these webinars themselves. So we'll be handing over to Sarah here. So we're doing a bit of navel glazing. Well, reflection, I think. Mindful reflection. Yeah. And just having a chat about what people are interested in and how we can all work together to help each other. Absolutely. Really is what we're doing. Yep. And then this stuff, isn't there about the actual group itself? Yeah, we're going to talk a bit about the Association for Learning Technologies Copyright and Online Learning Special Interest Group. Just chips off the tongue that, doesn't it? Yes. Chris and I have been in the chairs for three years now, so co-chairs. And so we're going to just be chatting about the election process, looking to recruit some people, new people, got some posts up for grabs. So there will be expressions of interest. But we'll tell you more about that later. Yeah, absolutely. So what have we been up to since we last met? So, Chris, what have you been up to? Well, this is why I've been over Christmas. My brother is a big Tiki bar fan, so he ended up buying four different types of rum. Wow. So that was a drink with included four different types of rum. Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. So, yeah, that was good. Yeah. Fun times. Yes. Fun as fun as some other times. Oh, I've been quiet. I've just had a quiet a few weeks, really. Yeah. Yeah. Can you believe that Jane has reached the age of 30 years old? It's incredible, isn't it? It still looks good, don't it? Yes. I've reached actually the half century. I know it's a shock. I know. I know. Sorry. It's come as a shock. That was me on Saturday night, singing my high out in the middle of a load of balloons at the end of the evening. And I thought, people, no, I'm a great magnificent character, so why not see me in all my glory at the end of the evening? Thank you, everybody. Yes. Thank you. Yes. It was a very understated affair, of course. No, me. You don't like to make a fuss. I don't like to make a fuss. No, indeed. In fact, if you could have kind of just slipped away without anyone noticing that. Oh, that would have been perfect. Yes. There we go. Yes. Yes. There was no keynote presentation. I have to say. No. So I'm my family. No parallel sessions. No parallel sessions, but I did do an icebreaker activity in the form of barn dancing. Of course you did. Yes. Of course you did. So. Right. So let us move on from this for now. Yes. What have we got next? Just a reminder, of course, that there is an archival previous webinars available on the Copyright Literacy website and the Alt YouTube channel. They have a playlist there with all of these in them. Yes, they do. Yes. And I think we do have Josh joining us who's on the City List programme. I don't know if you're able to post any of the links in the chat, Josh. Not to worry if you're not. Otherwise, we can post links later and the slides will be up. But yeah, that's, I think people know where these are anyway. So. Okay. So we are now. Copyright news. Copyright news. What's in the news at the moment? So your favourite part of the show when you get to play that jingle. Yeah. And you did actually play the jingle from this podcast, I think inadvertently, when we were swapping between laptops and having a technical chaos going on. So what's all this about? What's all this rock, paper, swords? Why were we on a podcast about historical fiction? Yes. Well, we have a member of this parish, Maria Hafi, who passed on to her husband, who is an author of historical action and adventure fiction. Who's written many bestselling books. And he does a podcast with another author, Stephen McKay. So Stephen and Matthew asked us if we would talk to them about copyright, about what the implications are for artificial intelligence and authors. And it was a brilliant conversation. Yeah, it was. It was. It's a really good podcast, actually. Really interesting. It's really good. They've had some great, they've had Bernard Gormel on there. They have. About the last Kingdom. Yeah. And then we got to go on it. We did. And they are awful a bit about copyright. And they are also rock musicians. Yes. So that's where the rock bit comes in. And so we had some musical fun games there as well. So, yeah, you might want to check that out. Yeah, Josh has just put the link in. Yeah. Thank you very much. It's a great podcast. Yeah. And it kind of... It's on all the streaming platforms as well as they have it on YouTube. And it's made us think we really do need to get our podcast edited, the rest of them. I did actually, I've started editing the next one. The next one is going to be good anyway. Excellent. This is one, in the meantime, if you want to hear, get more waffle from us. Yes. But it's in a different context than they were. Yeah. Yeah, they were absolutely brilliant. And there's a big waffle idea about copyright history, isn't there? Oh, we talk about copyright and the musical with them as well. Oh, yes, we do. So if those of you that may have heard us talk about that, we're developing the idea a bit more. Yes. Yeah. And I think we're developing a team. The next 50 years, I've got some things lined up I need to do. Yeah. And writing a musical is definitely on that. Shall we move on to some actual copyright news rather than that stuff? So many people will have seen the articles around public domain day because it's sort of hit the public awareness. Disney, Mickey Mouse. Because when you talk about the duration of copyright, how long copyright law lasts, it's everyone's go-to thing to talk about Disney and their pressure on extending it. Finally, in the U.S., this is the Steamboat willy from 1928. It's finally now in the public domain. Lots of commentary on it. Some of it more informed than others. But here we thought we'd link to this piece from the Center of Study of the Public Domain, Jennifer Jenkins, who we saw speak at a event in the past. She was at the Coretta Commons. Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah. So this one kind of really goes into the detail of it. That did feature it before Christmas in our big-pack copyright quiz of the year. It was, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But now it's out there. So Mickey Mouse is not fair game. But Steamboat willy, Mickey Mouse might be. Yes, and of course there are still protections around trademark law. Yeah, absolutely. Things to be aware of. But somebody has already made some kind of horror version of it, is that? Yeah. Okay, what else is coming up? So, Knowledge Rights 21, the organization that are doing work across Europe, looking at different aspects of kind of open access, open science, all those sorts of areas. They've got an event 29th January, which is looking at legislative developments in Bulgaria and Slovenia. Yeah, so across Europe, there's lots of different approaches being taken to how to support open science, open scholarship, rights for attention is something that's happening in the UK. So institutions putting policies in place. But in other countries, there are also this, how can you get the same principles in Australian legislation so that the author accepting manuscripts, for example, could be made available and immediately open access. So that's something that is worth, I've signed up to that. It would be worth going along if you're involved in that area in research, communication and open science, open scholarship. Next, we have a blog post, which we did share with people who are on a list copy seek, I think. So this is from our friend, former keynote at Ice Pops, not last year, here before, Douglas McCarthy, who's now at Delft University of Technology. And he's been talking about this recent piece of case law, the case, which is looking at whether you can sell, you know, licenses for public domain work. Well, the case doesn't itself involve cultural heritage institutions and the licensing of public domain works, the digital versions of. But what it does do is it returns to a fundamental principle of copyright law about what is an original copyright work. And do you have to, is it the labor skill and judgment, sweat at the brow argument that was traditional in British copyright law, or is it the author's own intellectual creation test, where in order for copyright to exist in something, it has to be free creative choices, and it has to be an original intellectual expression. So what this court case, THJ, V Sheridan does, is it clarifies something that in fact we already knew, and which the UK government had already said, that under UK law, it is the author's own intellectual creation. It isn't the sweat at the brow doctrine anymore. So it means that any institution, however sweaty you get, however sweaty your brow becomes, while digitising, unless you are also demonstrating free and creative choices, which is not the case if you are making as close to an accurate digital facsimile of a two-dimensional work. It's not about if you're doing it in the sauna. If you're doing it in the sauna, there is actually an article in the news today about a Finnish sauna, which has just received grade two listed stages. Is this in Kent? Oh, I saw that. We should go and visit it. Anyway, we digress. The thing about this is that Doug's post that he's written for us and also published in his own website is useful because it summarises a lot of other links. Actually, since he published this post, the British Association of Picture Libraries and Agencies has put out a statement about this and the implications. This one will run and run because, in fact, there is clearly attention here and attention is based on the way that public cultural institutions are funded and the expectation that there should be revenue, licensing revenue coming in. Those of you that are in this world should be paying attention to what happens next. Certainly, it's taking up a certain amount of my time at the moment. Yeah. But thanks to Doug for writing that for us and we will be reporting back on that. Yes, yes, yes. So next news story. I mean, it's kind of old news. Surely everyone's heard about this now, but obviously the latest rumblings in the copyright and AI issue is the New York Times just before Christmas, suing OpenAI who created ChatGQT, but also Microsoft as well for saying that some of their tools, they've got this co-pilot tool that we've been having a look at at our institution. For copyright infringement, because they found that the articles have been harvested. Another interesting case, what's going to happen here? Who knows? It's something we had two webinars about last year, copyright and AI. I would have thought it would be a topic that people will be interested in hearing about again later this year some more and kick an eye on this case. But we've got another piece here, which I think will be useful for those of you who are looking at the implications of generative AI, large language models on academic activities. And this one is particularly around academic publishing. So it starts off, so Jeff Pooley has written this piece on Upstream, which is a website created by 411, so he's looking at developments in Open Scholarship. It's really interesting, this one, because it's about who has control over the scholarly record and in fact, what does that control look like? Because it's so much of the monetization around this for the commercial organizations, about analyzing behavior of readers and of researchers. So the content itself is not necessarily the thing which has as much value as before. It's in this world where we're looking at tracking behavior and understanding, using this for all sorts of sort of mind-bendingly different reasons why you initially have control over the underlying articles. But definitely worth a read, that one. 15-minute read, well worth your time. There we go. I'll have a look at it. I haven't read that one yet. Okay. I think you have. You said you'd scan read it. I think I'd scan read it. And then I fill in some of the blanks. Yes. Okay. So we are... We're at the end of our news. We've got any more news? We've got any more news? No, we have no more news. Other than the news that we are delighted, once again, to have another guest, and this guest is Sarah Hammond, who joins us from University of Cambridge. Sarah is one of our copyright padawans who has been helping us with things related to copyright literacy. That's put a huge amount of time and effort into this report in this presentation she's about to give that helps us understand what people think of what we're doing here. Yeah. So Sarah, can we hand over to you? Can we check whether your mic and camera are working? Cool. I think they are. There we go. Well, excellent Sarah. So thank you once again for coming and joining us. So we'll hand over to you. Hopefully you have the ability to advance your slides and everything's okay. And we will let you show us what you've got to show us. Yeah. Take it away. Thank you. Can I just check if I do that? Does it move for you as well? It does. Yes. It does. Amazing. Yes. Cool. Okay. Hi. Thanks to Jane and Chris for having me and doing the introduction so that I don't have to do that. I'm Sarah. I work in Cambridge. I am here as one of the copyright padawans. So over the last year and a half we've been working on a survey to sort of evaluate how the webinars have been going, how they've been received, what you think of them, particularly throughout the pandemic, but also just sort of in general. And then that culminated in a report in November that we published on the website. At the time of writing that there were 63 webinars. We're now on 67. So they keep going, which is good. I'll just summarise the report. So the report was collating data and findings from two surveys that were circulated to copyright webinar attendees. So the first one was in 2020 and the second one was in May of last year. Probably some of you on this or watching this back will have filled one of those in, hopefully, or both of them. We had sort of a variety of question types so we could get a triangulation of responses. That's a very fancy word for having numbers and thoughts, so different types of data. So we could have numbers sort of evaluating things, but also written opinions and actual thoughts to go with those. Jane has put the link in the chat if you want to have a look. And the main goal of the report and doing the surveys was to sort of compare and measure the webinar's impacts and reception to you and the relevance to sort of ongoing issues and topics throughout the pandemic, the early pandemic, different stages, and then all the changes that have been coming with that and in general with the way that people are working and living and how the webinars fit into that. There were two surveys. They ended up being quite different, so even though, not that different in the grand scheme of things. So the first one ran quite early in retrospect in the pandemic, so late 2020, and that sort of has given a real snapshot of how the webinars were doing in the depths of the pandemic and early working from home and closures and all of those kind of things that have changed since. And that was run through JISC surveys and I had nothing to do with that one. I did write the second survey which went out in May, roughly last year. It asked a lot of the same questions, but also some new ones to sort of get a bit more insight and see how things have changed and get some more comparison. And that was on run through Qualtrics, which is a very similar system but different. So they had different authors and different platforms, which has meant that some of the comparison has been more difficult because I don't know what the data hasn't been in the same place and in the same format and also two different people writing things will pitch things slightly differently. But I think overall it's worked out quite well. This is a quote from the feedback. If you wrote this, then thank you because I've used it in literally everything. It's just a quote that sort of managed to summarize what lots of people in both surveys spoke to. So I just put it in as a nice little summary of the webinar's sort of general reception and what was coming out of the feedback. And just in case, just to give it a little bit more context as well, here's sort of a vague timeline of when things were happening. So the survey ran in 2020, the first one, I think I sort of appeared and derailed everything in 2022. And then we drafted and planned the second survey sort of into 2023, ran that in May, and then had the report finalized and published by November. So it did take quite a long time but that is how things work when three people are trying to organize something who work in different places and have different lives. And I think it has meant that we've been able to do a real like long comparison between the first and the second survey, which was really the point of running the second survey in the first place was to sort of have that point of comparison with the first one. In terms of responses, this probably won't shock anyone. They were, these averages from both surveys, the responses for both were really similar, which is why I've just sort of averaged across them. Nearly everyone was based in the UK except for, I think one person in Sweden and one person in Denmark. So really heavy focus on UK attendees. And most people were librarians, worked in copyright or scholarly communications. And then the other section included things like lecturers, learning technology people. No one really particularly like, you know, no farmers. So most people working within the realms of sort of higher education and information services. Which actually was reflected in this next one we asked in the second survey whether people's jobs were specifically related to copyright. Because that sort of gave a little bit of wider context to the job title area. So I mean, for example, my job title and my job are absolutely not related to copyright at all. Whereas other people with a very similar job do focus on copyright. So it just sort of enabled that to be sort of evened out a little bit. And you'll see from the slides that that was most, yeah, basically nearly everyone would say that they were at least somewhat working with copyright, which is good in terms of the webinars. Because it means that it's, you know, we're not talking about a bunch of things that no wonder is really needing to hear. We also asked how many webinars people had attended. Both in the first and second survey, although these results are for the second one, just because so many more had run by the time the second survey went out. Most people seem to attend quite a lot. But also a quite a large proportion of people who responded did sort of like one in three or one in four. So perhaps you people are picking based on topic only attending the ones that they think will be relevant to them, that kind of thing. We also asked about actual like mode of engagement. So whether people were tuning in live, watching the recordings, looking at the slides, contributing in the webinars, either as guest speakers or sort of in discussions. And also whether there was engagement outside of the webinars. So social media, that kind of thing. And those again sort of really evened out between, not evened out, but matched up between the two surveys is nearly everyone who responded to both tuned in live. About two thirds also said they watched the recordings. So presumably where things have been interesting or useful or wanted to refer back to things, having the recordings available has been really helpful. Lots of people seem to contribute in the webinars as a participant, timing in on discussions, getting involved on social media. And it did seem like really everyone did tend to tune in live and attend live and engage live as their main point of engagement, which is interesting. There must be something about the live show, as it were, that is appealing to people. We also asked more in the second survey about the actual institutions people worked for and the context they worked in. So 94% of people indicated that they work in the higher education sector. So that's 62 out of the responses. So that's universities, not all libraries, information, scholarly communications, education, parts of that. And then some other people contributed from public libraries and the NHS. This really helps to know because it means that in terms of organizing the webinars, clearly it's material that still focuses on higher education in the university context is going to be the most relevant to the attendees. We also asked whether people were aware of sort of copyright colleagues attending or if they had a dedicated team in their institution. Most people said no, so about half, just over half said they definitely didn't have a dedicated copyright team that they were aware of. And about 30 people, so just under half said that they did and very few were unsure, which is actually really good because it means people, attendees seemed to have a good awareness of sort of, I guess you would expect it, but a good awareness of the copyright situation where they work. And it also helps to sort of get a sense of when we're talking about sort of community, which we'll come onto, how important or not the online copyright community is if people don't have that in their sort of daily work life. So I'm just going to go on. These are the sort of three main themes that came out of the more sort of qualitative and experience-based feedback. So confidence that people reported sort of the webinars really helping to increase their general confidence in both their personal sort of life, but also professional activity. So dealing with copyright inquiries, navigating copyright. Regulation and practice. A few people mentioned how it sort of helped them with imposter syndrome and that their confidence grew generally in sort of tackling workplace copyright issues, bringing things up to other people, being able to answer things confidently. Another main one was belonging and community. So the creation of the copyright sort of network and the relationships that people have made or continued through these webinars. So people that they've met maybe in the chat and carried on a conversation elsewhere professionally or just having this like space to jump into on a Friday and you know, all be in the same boat. People especially in the first survey reported that that was really, really valuable during earlier lockdown and that sort of isolation and not being in their daily workplace and seeing colleagues that having like a regular online professional community that was quite light hearted and a bit of an escape was really, really valuable. A lot of people talked about how sort of positive and helpful the community is and that it wasn't constant like I think copyright and the related challenges can be quite annoying but having sort of the positive and like generous community in the webinars. People have really valued and it's also quite interesting that this one really went up so that the sort of levels of people reporting this was a lot stronger in the second one so kind of showing that over time as the webinars have gone on these things have got stronger and more important and the final sort of main one was awareness. I mean we've had the news section that's been a staple and that has really helped increase people's sort of awareness and interest in new copyright issues but it's also the webinars in general have helped people sort of increase their general awareness and think of things that they maybe wouldn't think of before and there's also been a real spread of copyright awareness from webinar attendees outwards into their institutions so that they can learn things or think of things in the webinars learn about things and then leave the webinars and take them out into their workplaces and their sort of work activity and this again was a lot higher in the second one I think where people have had time to sort of come to a topic that is useful to them. Some other things that came up quite a lot particularly in the second survey as people were sort of thinking more about non-pandemic practice it came out a lot both in the sort of demographic statistics and the feedback that the community is really UK based so perhaps there'd be room to improve international reach and content. This one's an interesting one because obviously a lot of copyright happens within law which is UK based so it makes sense for things to be focused and there have been a lot of guests providing a UK perspective and that is reflected as well that people when they were asked to feedback on their sense of community internationally were reporting really low but in terms of perspective and awareness a lot higher so that's clearly something the webinars are doing quite well is the sort of awareness side of that people reported the role of the webinars in their career development so learning things from the webinars gaining the knowledge and the skills and the confidence of helped them progress in their career either officially or not but contributing to new initiatives or applying for a job that was more copyright focused that they now felt able to do so people have really appreciated the opportunity to hear best practice from other institutions particularly ones that weren't necessarily similar to theirs so hearing what works and what hasn't worked and hearing the sort of individual perspective on that and it was also I mean there is a strong focus on sort of higher education and further education and education related topics this is something to think about whether that needs to be expanded or if it sort of fits and serves the needs of the community and the webinar feedback sort of suggested that it did and lots of people mentioned the style of the webinars they were fun and interesting and inclusive and especially during the early sort of lockdown and pandemic when the webinars were quite new that it was like a real escape to have a bit of fun and a song I would say it wasn't like there was negative feedback as well not very much and some of it from the first one was addressed by the time the second one ran so things like specific topics people thought were missing things a few other things and as the a few people fed back on sort of feeling that they didn't like the style and they wanted it to be more serious or more factual and they didn't want a song Sarah just coming in I mean we'll come back to this in a moment yeah but of course singing is just part of what we do really I think we're going to move on to the next bit in about five minutes time so can we is that okay if we can kind of yeah I had one slide left so yeah so I'm just gonna overview the outcomes so we presented I presented a draft report and sort of a much simpler version of these slides at the all Coolsig AGM last year we've published the report on the copyright literacy website we've got this huge wealth of feedback and ideas from you and other attendees on what the webinars could do or incorporate or look like but there's also a really solid evidence base that the webinars are sort of being well received having a really useful and important impact on copyright awareness and copyright activities so there's two things to draw on and this is just a word cloud from all of the text feedback of what came up a lot obviously copyright is the biggest one but it just sort of gives a sense of people's thoughts and that is it for me that's fantastic yeah thank you Sarah thank you thanks so much for that and we're going to ask people if they've got questions things that they would like to ask you about what it was that you found and your analysis of that just to say I know at the beginning you kind of touched on some of the challenges involved in picking up a piece of work that had been started from elsewhere we just wanted to say you've done a fantastic job on this and I think as anybody who's been involved in this any kind of research knows there's some legwork in order to make sense of it and take two different bits of data one created by someone else another collected by another but you've done a really great job and it's just been really helpful to us so thank you for that yeah I mean I don't know did anything surprise you in their findings that was one thought I had I think we felt the first survey we tried we were more involved in it and I think this one we tried to sort of didn't we leave you to do it in a some ways we gave you some pointers but was there anything then that surprised you in the findings yeah I mean I was actually surprised that there wasn't more sort of constructive criticism or I feel like normally when you open up an anonymous text box people have the opportunity to say all sorts of things and actually there was actually like a really tiny tiny proportion of things that people didn't like yeah and that indeed and I mean it's really good just for the record so where do you stand on the singing debate is it a good thing or not oh you put her on the spot man I put her on the spot no comment no comment that's personally the correct answer does anybody I mean we're going to come to a discussion really about the future of what happens next to the group in a moment does anybody before we move on to that have any questions that they would like to ask Sarah or or yeah so you can put your hand up or you can put something in the chat we can move on I think to the next bit of what we've got to say and anyone can be thinking of what they would want to ask we'll come back to that in a moment but thanks again Sarah for having done this work and for joining us today joining us today and taking us through this it's been it's just really great to have some actual data to base this on rather than impressions and it just seems like people are still finding these useful so you know basically here is what we this means for the the copyright and online learning special interest group which is the the group that we are currently co-chairs of and we're the ones that support the webinar and it's under the the overall ALT and their special interest group umbrella that we do this work so there's an annual report available online which is I'm just going to pop the linking because I think that wasn't up until yesterday so what we did what what's happened over the last year summarizing what the group has done we do plan to continue running the webinars seems like nobody tells us not to and I think the thing is people keep chatting up yeah so if people turn up clearly you know when the numbers start dwindling won't dance nothing we won't just be sitting here talking to no one yeah one of the things we have been having a bit of a chat with ALT haven't we about some things and about thinking about whether some of you know what we could do as well we might take to a broader audience through their webinar program so that you know I think we feel our community comes here to us but there's probably a message where we could be talking yeah to people outside that community and we probably would need to do that in a slightly different way I think so if we look at what ALT is about the association for learning technology many of their members are people who are learning technologists or people who are doing using learning technology and are not necessarily the go-to copyright person no they don't need to they don't need to go into the detail but it's the kind of what are the ten key things that they might need to know and to kind of to be able to sort of then flag up the role of copyright specialists in the institutions to say you probably have one go and talk to them yeah but you know here's some stuff you can work out yourself and in some way we see that what we're doing here with these webinars what we do with the group is it's the kind of online and public sort of way into what has already been happening in the List Copy See community for many years so it's the and so we're that's many of the people that are on the court today and generally do tune in and I think we recognize that that's part of the power of you know what makes these work but when it comes to the group itself there is a handbook on how these special interest groups should be run chairs cannot be chairs for more than three years no so our tenure is over it's the end of this particular era however there is an opportunity if no one wants to come forward for us to continue as co-chairs and there's a process there that needs to be gone through so there's a we need a new secretary because that secretary is standing down yeah and the co-chairs need to be chairs or co-chairs need to be confirmed whether that's us or someone else wants to come and we were thinking also about possibly creating a vice chair role weren't we which might be somebody if we were standing again if we did if nobody else wanted to be chair then we could have a vice chair it might be somebody who could be someone that we could help develop into that role because we do appreciate that suddenly taking charge of something from someone else might seem a bit daunting so we're going to even if you're not on the committee at the moment you will be able to put yourself forward won't use this process to join the committee to take on one of the roles so there'll be an expression of interest and if need be then I'll run some elections so we'll make sure that that goes out widely to the people that are signed up as members on the list but the important thing here with all of this is in order to be part of that conversation you need to join it up to the Copyright and Online Learning Special Interest Group which is as simple as following this link to this JISC mail list and joining you can just join straight up and you will get all of the communications around this so thanks Josh for putting excellent cheers thank you very much so I think what we wanted to do at this stage I mean we've got some future webinars you know things that are coming up so on the second of February we're being joined by Claire Painter and Professor Emily Hudson who are two of the authors of this report on third party copyright and research output something commissioned by UKRI and that came out last year and it's actually a really helpful piece of work it's it has relevance to all that elements of copyright because it talks about copyright permissions and copyright exceptions and in the context of open access but there are other we you know we're planning on running the copyright specialist session again yes so we'll be looking for people who might want to speak at that yeah and we are going to be talking to the people behind the old ethical framework to the ethical use of learning technology and how that links to copyright we've got some other possible topics there but again this is open this is an opportunity for others to come up with ideas now yeah did anybody want to share an experience or a thought or a thing that might be useful that we're not currently doing or a way of doing it that we haven't been doing it yeah so we'll open up the floor if anyone wants to ask anything ask anything so let's see if anyone's putting anything in the chat he's just the two links in the chat yeah it might be a tumbleweed moment it might be it might just if you just want us to carry on coming up with stuff and just you can sit there and listen to whatever it is we have to say i mean we've got some really good ones coming up but really this is this the point of this as far as we're concerned is it's about community we should be reflecting what people want to know we actually also one of the things we do have i think on the website so if afterwards you think of something we added a page i think where you can put suggestions oh kate asks for something yeah supporting open software licensing that's an interesting one it is something actually that i've been discussing with my own institution i mean okay do you want to come on if you've got your mic and your uh camera working do you want to actually talk us through ah right there you are hello good morning good morning i'll go on i'll risk putting the video on my house is absolutely okay i've had damp work done so i've got no radiators so i am swaddled and it's not great um yeah open software licensing is something that i'm doing an awful lot more work supporting um okay and just yeah i think it's one of those things that the more you do the more you kind of go this is huge this is massive um and it's it's fascinating it's just a sort of is if anyone else is doing it how they're finding it um what's working what's not that kind of thing okay um yeah i've got i've got a colleague at oxford who is very uh up on these things and and may it be able to come a join us someone from from it at oxford who is a very strong supporter of open source software um and that but that is an area there's there's loads and loads in that so i guess the question is what is there a specific angle on it is it a general primer to this and how it interacts with other aspects of open scholarship or is it something specific i think i think i think this is a thing ago it could be what people want it to be because yeah okay i mean part of it is a question of without knowing in advance are other people doing this because if other people are already sort of supporting this area of work in their copyright roles then i think that leads to a slightly different more in-depth discussion if lots of people aren't but they want to know what it's like and sort like how to how to begin doing it because it is very different then that would be a different kind of discussion so i'll just yeah okay no we'll we'll put that out there yeah okay thanks it's a really good one it's making me think a lot of ideas about how we i mean i think what might be an interesting angle given that we've heard from sarah that our main audience here and most of us working in academic libraries i think there's probably a really interesting thing about how do academic libraries with their focus on openness and copyright support link with computer scientists and it departments and that sort of makes sense of this very big world and within an institution because in my experience what you've got is you've got computer scientists wanting to open the giveaway stuff and then you've got innovation and exploitation or you know those teams wanting to monetize it and it's like how do you make sense of that i think that's a good topic let's definitely return to that yeah okay yeah we're getting the work sorted the dad is gone we just went for the plastic to dry and it's a bad time of year so oh it's all right in this in this warm summery weather it'll be fine and we've got a couple more things so devra has said about having the ai and i think we've definitely got you know we can line something up probably you know for a bit later in the year to have another update yeah because we had we had alex come and join us which was great alex fenner from firmingham we had a follow-up discussion on i think that's sort of where are we now what have we seen and what are we saying in terms of our guidance yeah yeah and i think what i know you would be interested in that someone a researcher that we know who has actually been looking into what institutions say with their guidance oh yes yeah yeah yes yeah let's see if he's yeah that would be absolutely yeah yeah yeah leasels hit on something which is pretty central to what we've been thinking about for many years so uh saying possibly less helpful for most attendees but i'd really like early career copyright specialist guide and then the leap from doing a job which features copyright prominently to working as the corporate expert for my institution was a large one i've had similar for others on jumping into being the copyright contact yeah and and i you know i've everybody who is in this world has been through that process or is going through that process because uh and there isn't a sort of structured training program to do it no and i think there's one of the challenges we had in fact when we did the first report um we looked at what people were asking for and there is a difference between providing a structured kind of education program or course versus a community and bringing sort of topics and discussing them yeah because actually providing that structure does require a bit more um work yeah to do it but i i think there are certain things that we could be doing as a community that might actually help for more um yeah with some of the more experienced people sharing their knowledge yeah and it might be that is really what we hoped to have a project didn't we as part of the the call to do that i think it was finding the time again and what i would actually say if people are interested in this if people are either interested in contributing to it yeah or saying these are the things i don't get and i feel you know i'm an expert we've heard this a lot i'm the expert but i feel odd coming and asking people what the answer is because i should already know then i that is you know if you join the call to that's something that that the group has been talking about and how best to support that one idea i do have is is there just a thread on copy seek which we crowd source and we come up with that these are the things you need to know and then we just link that as a permanent thread and then we can kind of share some stuff but again yeah how how would that work but yeah um goodbye thank you leesall yeah and then josh has said about um ebook lending but also particularly thinking about public libraries as well i mean i think something to do with i mean it's an ongoing topic isn't it ebook lending licensing all of those kinds of things yeah um we're intending i'm sure we've got controlled digital lending on our um uh list of topics we'll say hopefully more about that fairly soon but um yeah there will be there will be more information coming out about that but what we also try to do is link to those other events taking place where they do they do sort of take that wider view um uh and you know knowledge rights 21 for example have run quite a few of these that we have yeah yeah but yeah it's it's definitely on our list of things yeah and it may get people from other sectors to come along as well because i think it is it is an issue it's how much you know control and say public libraries have got they've working with a lot of suppliers aren't they i think when it comes to ebooks that they're quite limited in what they can do and then it's all wrapped up in licensing rather than copyright and such yeah but great great topics yeah okay that's good well anything anyone else wants to say or add to this conversation about what we're doing here what we're doing with the group and how it might work because if not if not i think that's great we can move on to the final thing just to remind you what we've got coming up so please make a date in your diaries for the second of February i think we're both trying to do the same thing we are doing the same thing at the same time yeah i've eaten you you've eaten me yeah so yeah please put that date that's going to be another excellent note that's actually a change of date from what we did originally advertise um because the speakers have asked us to change it so we brought it forward a week it was you might have it in the calendar as the 9th of February but it's definitely not it's the second of February and i think changed it um oh and thank you sir oh thank you sir so you sir is just put our contact details in the chat there for anyone who wants to contact her if they've got any um questions yeah about that so i think at this point we're going to stop the recording well you can do one last thing you want to do the one last thing do you might be recorded okay all right um well for those of you that uh uh had thoughts about singing um what we're going to do here this is this is your birthday cake oh my goodness yes i didn't know you were actually planning on singing though we are in your guitar relatively in tune yeah so we are going to do so what we will we've done this before on on people's uh birthdays yes we're going to bring that cake down if everyone can open up their mics and you could all sing along if you're in a position to see now we have people leaving but some of you will stay and some of you will know if you open up your mics you can sing along now it will sound cacophonous but that doesn't matter because we're all in it together so it's not quite in tune but it doesn't matter so happy birthday to you happy birthday to you happy birthday to you happy birthday to you what the most amazing noises come in that was absolutely beautiful it was like a beautiful choir okay on that note we will say thank you everyone to come and thanks again to sarah yeah thanks also to josh and josh yep yeah yeah and we will see you all again and yes that was my birthday cake