 Good evening everyone we're going to call the city of Montpelier Development Review Board meeting to order for June 3 2019 my name is Daniel Richardson. I serve as the chair the other members from my right are Rob Goodwin Kevin O'Connell Meredith Crandall staff Ryan Kane Clare Rock Okay to Approval of the agenda is the first item of business on our agenda. We have one item of business Are there any additions or is there a motion to approve the agenda so move motion by Kevin? Do I have a second second second by Ryan all those in favor of approving the agenda is printed, please raise your right hand the only Minutes before us of a May 6th minutes, and we do not have a quorum to approve them, so we will bump those to the next meeting And that brings us to our first and only item of business 301 River Street if the applicants will come forward to the table, so if you'll state your name for the record Okay, if you'll raise your right hand and put you under oath you solemnly swear affirm the testimony You're about to give for the matter under consideration She'll be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth under the pain some penalties perjury All right, so we are here for final subdivision review. We had a preliminary review of this a few weeks back and To jump to I think what is probably the heart of the matter is the issue of access and That was I think one of our concerns when we last left off You've had a few weeks to think about it. What what kind of access are you proposing and if we can go we'll start there Okay The So and I'm looking at C1 of your site plan is that your proposed access point For this lot to that's going to be created Okay, and so Have you had an engineer review? The access Okay, and do we have a I saw Don Don Marsh is the engineer you have reviewer and Don coming tonight or he's not here Well the issue is really I think of I don't know if you're familiar I presume you're familiar with the b71 standards for driveways and Spacing doing this schematic thing you guys have yeah, it's It's paid it's page eight of the staff reports has sections from it But What we're looking for and this is in our zoning bylaws as well as this Spacing between driveways and talks about access points. She'll be spaced as specified Spacing of proposed driveways in this particular district is a minimum of 200 feet to any intersection and 120 feet between driveways now the proposed access that you're Submitting is only 72 feet away from the existing driveway And so when now the b71 standard is one that's created by the AOT and it's It's the ideal and not every driveway meets the ideal But if it deviates the questions are always why is it deviating? And is it still safe? Notwithstanding the deviation so Maybe you could Fill us in as to you know why you've chosen the driveway because I know when we were here last time You were talking about well, maybe we could hook the driveway into the existing entrance point And you were going to go back and revisit that as well as talking about the reasons why This is still safe Think that where there's an existing driveway there now from years ago that we talked about last time we were here I Couldn't put a date on it. I'm not sure our other business partner Jason was able to but It seems to make the most sense of where that is the way the land sets there am I understanding to To share a driveway There's a massive piece of ledge there And that's right next to the road in between the two Drive it while the proposed driveway and the existing driveway I think it'd be cost-prohibitive to to blast that area out For us Do occur in the lay of that land where it is now where that natural driveway is It just seems to make the most sense rather than create and fill in a Deeper area where there's not an existing Driveway I mean if you're looking at the piece of property and you're like where would I put a driveway that? seems to make the most sense like And as for like the I don't know the right way to say it but the distance the view When you pull out, I mean that's like seems to be like in the middle of the property the property right now You are some divided so there's Seems to be site of site distances Thank you. I mean there's site distance in the stopping distance, right? You know part of that is site distance if you think about it is What you can see is you're pulling out right stopping distance is what people can see when you're pulling out Right on the road. I see. Yeah so When you're standing where that driveway is and you look to your left and your right coming out of there You can see quite a ways Right, I'm looking at the grenier. I mean it looks like the sight line is about 445 feet in both directions is what Yeah, and that's that's a b71 standard is the 445 so that that is not so much the issue I don't think from Department of Public Works as the people trying to pull out of the current driveway and The new driveway especially because we don't know what kind of development is going on right on the new lot too You know if it's if it ends up being just a few homes That's not as big of a deal as if we're talking big delivery trucks trying to come out of here at the same time We're trying to have other people you know turned towards that parcel Right, and so Meredith is going where I was high. No, no, no, I Any vehicle gets us there But you know the standard that we're really concerned about is not necessarily a sight or stopping distance because the you seem to have those Right, so I'm not and neither public works in her eye or presumed not the rest of board He's concerned with that what what this is a concern about the distance between the two is just a traffic flow now I'm looking up. I'm looking at your C1 drawing and You know maybe the best way to go into this is in part to understand What this subdivision is going to entail? Being what's going to be there exactly and we don't have any plans right now the Original purpose was to subdivide right and then we came to the meeting and you said well We can't subdivide and have a piece of the property that doesn't have a driveway which obviously makes sense, right? So it's not like we have any Thing that's planned right now. Okay. Is there a way to come back after? After we decide what we're going to do with it. Yeah, well, yeah, you'll have to you'll have to be a separate application But it's totally different part of this is and so At least for the approval of what you're proposing which is put the driveway here, right? Part of what we have to understand is what impact that's going to have on the traffic. I mean obviously we don't want You know if you're going to create a loading dock facility for cabbage ease For example where you're gonna have trucks going in and out all the time. It's gonna interfere with the Entrance and exit to your existing Lot number one And it may not be they may not be compatible Because and that may undermine any any request to justify the shortening of the distances between and that's really what it's about Is the flow of traffic? whereas maybe you have a very low usage or You know it's it's You know in part it's a really a question for your engineer to answer and that's one concern I have is that you know we have this May 29th I presume you have a copy of the May 29th Memorandum from public works and so they're they're expressing this in far greater technical detail Then we are Here and usually what we would what I'd like to see You know it's testimony from your engineer saying We've read through this the reason why we're We're not concerned is for these reasons and to be able to put on the record as part of his testimony You know why he thinks that will not be an issue Otherwise what sorry otherwise? I think you know we're left to either guess or to You know try and come up with conditions Which may or may not be necessary and What I wouldn't want to do is to have a permit that put conditions on your use of the property That would restrict it in a way that wasn't Necessary I mean there may need to be conditions on this because of the shortness of the driveway But they what I'd prefer to have is much more reasonably tailored ones as opposed to Sort of a stab in the dark Over concerns when you're not even planning what you're saying is you're not planning on building a building there I presume you're just going to try and sell this lot the second lot or Right Well, I'm just I mean I'm looking here at least as the potential drawings on the C1 and it's quite Good deal of parking as well as at least three structures that are potential to build there And I and if you're you know, you're putting money into doing this and I Would want you to be able to sell this to the highest potential use which might be three commercial buildings in a parking lot and that's and that's fine as long as the entrance and exit and the you know the issue about traffic flow is Satisfied, but you know part of the problem here tonight is that without your engineer to respond to the public works I I don't know how far we can go down that road and I wouldn't ask you to guess Just as you wouldn't ask us to speculate Could I ask what I mean you could have put anything on lot to as your future potential Development what drove your decision-making to select this which I assume is probably about the most intense use you could have I'm not sure that our other business first Partner Jason Marilyn Don Mars did most of the work on this so I don't know what their thought was Make the most use of the property by drawing some Because that's that's that's noted in the city engineers Report as well. Yeah, about the the fact that that before approving The the subdivision That at least public works would like to know more about what your future plans are Potentially and if we don't have future plans What are they what would they like to hear? Well, I mean the process the process for whatever development you come up with is It's a new application. It's a new process to start all over Right and you know I think I mean I think part of it is just this is very it's a unique piece of land with very limited access I mean if this was just like flat to the road Then we wouldn't really have these concerns because they could be dealt with down the road when you propose if you propose, you know Duplex up there for you know two residences, you know, wherever you put the access probably isn't gonna matter There was something like, you know the maximum potential use, you know where that access is gonna be huge And it and it sounds like from what I've heard from the last time in here is like This is pretty much the only spot where the access could go It looks that I mean if you drove by and stopped and looked at it yourself you would go Yeah, and if you look at the I mean the slope map makes it pretty clear that you don't have many other options except for That is just in space. So I think that's why in this situation It really does matter to have an idea of what could go there because if we approve the subdivision I mean the risk is to you ultimately if we approve the subdivision and then you come in and you say We want to put all this stuff in and your access is where your access is You should understand that you know because it doesn't meet the B 71 standards because it doesn't meet the regulation standards If we were to approve it where it is it may significantly limit what you can put up there because we can say Look, you can't have more than a few cars coming and going because you don't have the sight distances or whatever. So but if you Grant us that Then we're still limited. Well, you're limited depending on how much traffic Because of that. That's always like fallback to Well, I think I think what what the issue would be is if we had to approve it If we if we had to vote on tonight I would as just one member would would want a condition about the traffic given the limitations shown in the drawings Whereas I I think what really could be clarified is if you brought You know your engineer in to give testimony to explain, you know to answer some of the the city's questions because What we're going on right now is we have the city raising these concerns the Department of Public Works saying we can't really tell What the impact of the traffic is it doesn't meet the B 71 standards or it's not clear but we need these answers so you know and You have a good engineer Who can come in and who can answer some of these concerns and can explain, you know, this is sufficient for this size? Property, I mean, you know one of the conditions that I would at the very least want is if those questions weren't answered would be a traffic study and that's a burden that gets put on the property and You know has to be done before any development can happen whether or not, you know down the line it proves to be necessary It's probably easier to shortcut that now By having just some clarity with that issue, you know What what what I'm taking away from your testimony is that there really is no other good option for this driveway that The the idea of pushing it to lot one doesn't work Given the way the topography of the land is You can't move the driveway anywhere else given the steep slopes of the existing lot As well as I'm sure some of the drainage and stormwater issues there may need still even need to be some blasting Even with this site But you know, this is sort of you're locked into this particular Entrance, which is fine. I mean that's that happens in these things and that's why I sort of emphasize in beginning the B 71 standard is sort of the the ideal the platonic ideal and We obviously have to deal with lesser ones But what we need to do that is affirmative testimony that we're we're not creating a problem down the road of traffic snarls or Access issues and so that's that's certainly something that we want to we'd want to consider So one of the things we can do And I'm not Directing you how to do this I mean obviously if you want to keep pushing forward we can but we can always table this and come back for our next meeting Which would be in two weeks if if Don could attend To answer some of these questions And and sounds like your partner also may have better answers as well if he's working Yeah, like who put together this like one sheet that you guys have Or kind of just goes through the standards If you look at the second page, yeah Because there's a representation in here that Attaches the design for new access drive for lot two which complies with the trans B 71 drive standards And so then DPW says well, it doesn't comply with the 71, but maybe it does if you Look at alternatives within B 71 Right, so and well that there's and the other thing is that you know You have the board has the ability to accept this reduction in distance as long as There's enough justification for why Stay there and like you said part of it is Yeah, I think having done here would help. Well, yeah personally. I mean, I'm I'm satisfied with that side of things I mean I think from the testimony a sketch plan and just the slope plan and everything It really doesn't look like there's any other better place for this But that said I do share Dan's concern that I would be uncomfortable with it Just carp launch approval for this without because there are certain uses that might be permitted uses Where you wouldn't necessarily have to come back and do a Detailed analysis of traffic and that sorts of thing, but I think we would want to avoid that to make sure Whatever goes in here That that we look at this again when it's actually going to be developed And those concerns might be alleviated if If Don who says it needs to be 71 standards could come and explain why and then and then maybe we don't have any conditions and you can Deal with whatever happens down the road down the road in a freer way Right Yeah, I'd echo Ryan's Sheriff, I don't know if anyone else has any questions on that particular issue I just had one question regarding the site plan on lot one. There's a little shaded area like halfway through Like middle of the frontage a lot one Is that like a pull-off or is that an old driveway or Is that something proposed? Basically right at the on the front edge like perpendicular to the building there There's like a little shaded area with the On the site plan the Grenier engineering plan to the To the right of the driveway of the existing driveway, but right along the road edge. Yeah, there's a firm there or whatever you want to call it out by the road. I Just couldn't tell what that shaded area was So look like a block So there's a TR-5 and a TR-4 on either side of it. There's a 12-foot annotation I Think it's only this is tiny. I think it's only shaded because it's showing the slopes There's just supposed to be slope lines. There is a slight hump So there's a driveway on the right side or to the right of the parking whether there is a little bit of a hump right there It's like a it's like a berm. Yeah to keep Vehicles out right and yeah along the road there is because originally I think Maybe there was two accesses to that driveway when it was presidential Maybe it came in from both sides and we had to cut it down to one side Is that I'm trying to remember it's been so long since we Because I know we did have to put that grass piece out by the road and it goes the hole away But the shaded area that you might be looking at if it's behind that there is a right there Good So the other issue Any other questions about the the access The other the other particular area that the staff had raised was the character of the neighborhood question and In part this is what's known as the eastern corridor neighborhood and it's described as quote a typical Low-density highway commercial corridor that accompanies many of the city's auto-oriented businesses Proposed land development should promote infill development and mixed-use redevelopment that should enhance the aesthetic character of the corridor as With well with well-designed buildings landscaping and signage along the frontage so as I understand this is you're Creating this lot to create to essentially use what's right now an unused parcel Of land that you know you have your building that sits at the front of what will now be lot one But this will allow you to create the second one but if you could tell us how You know and understanding that it's up in the air whether you're going to develop it or sell it Do you do you intend to sell this or develop this as a? commercial lot or residential or Commercial commercial So and and wasn't there a house law or subdivision approved for up top Vecto then it's a long long time ago a long time ago. It was a big development. Yeah, like 200 plus We've more towards the top that that was more towards Well the entry to it at least one entry to it was down near where I don't wear a DeWolfe's nail I'll be right back. That's the closest residential place, right? Wow over by walkers. There's a couple of residential places there but Right I mean the other the other uses along there along that 302 strip or all commercial there's a tractor supply The auto dealers that they mentioned the new commercial building that Conor brothers put up The auto parts the auto dealer Lot one is commercial So how is a place like tractor supply when their driveways almost hooked effect those and their driveways have to Chevy dealership how did they The traffic goes to a place like tractor supply. I would assume is a high Low traffic here. Yeah, maybe not Fecto homes or I Mean the GMC dealer is well, that's that's exactly why we want, you know We've we've when those applications have come before us they've provided Testimony, you know, they brought their engineer in and said this is why it's not an issue And it's part of the reason why I Encouraging you to have Don come in so that he can explain it So we you know we don't because they don't have conditions on how they use their driveway In part because they've been able to show that it won't have a traffic impact And in fact it does not seem to have negative traffic impact on the area for you know the entrance and exit So we I think we we just want make to make sure that your proposal fits in with that Just on a practical level for a tractor supply is currently located. There's a there's pretty decent sight distances For for exiting the lot. I Just know that your your property. This isn't scientific But it's one of the darkest spots on 302 and with that curve Particularly on a Dark-winter night. That's a very tricky spot. Yeah, and that's part of what you know I think that the engineers are going to have to have to address. Yeah, our real the 301 property now is pretty well lit Yeah, it is When it was oh, yeah, it's an actual obviously and I would assume if That was sold or developed or whatever down the road that it would be lit to I mean, we've been trying to get mother nature to move the son But you know and also I think part of this is just to raise in part I To make sure that we make a determination whether or not this is a consistent use with the eastern corridor neighborhood character Which I think I mean your testimony is it's a commercial lot infill within a block of commercial lots You know I'm trying to think if there's is the There's a gap between your property lot one and then The I think it's a residential apartment house right before formula Ford. Oh There was a hotel or something. I don't know what it is now, but okay, it might be efficiencies or maybe nobody It's a little sketchy dark up there speaking with a better kid. Yeah, but it's Dead but next to them. I think there's like two other residential Into the left is just an empty lot right now that I Don't know what you can and can't do on that property, but I know it's been for sale Vecto homes that piece of property We would triple a right, but no the wolf and Right, and there's a century 21's back there now Well, I'm trying to understand so so part of what we're charged with doing is figuring out is this compatible with the neighborhood You know if this was In a different neighborhood it might not be in fact, we've had other applications in which that's been a question So part of it is just to elicit testimony from you and in in part because I think it was something that you Didn't quite flesh out in your application, which is fine. That's what these hearings are for To understand, you know how this fits in and for us to make a determination as a board as to whether that Fits in the character of the neighborhood as it's presently Proposed and so part of that is just understanding what the surrounding neighborhood looks like and And what your plans are for your property good any other questions? I mean, I go ahead. Yeah, just ah you guys are coming back I think that there's a couple of maybe clerical things to update on the plat I don't think that maybe we don't have the most recent version I'm not sure but Looks like there's not bearings and distances around all a lot too, so I don't know if that just this oversight but I think what I'm saying is that the date on on this current on the on the plat that we have is 2015 That's the that's the site plan for the driveway Have you already on the very last page the final flat so because we don't have bearings and distances for the south the south and the West line of lot two I Mean, I'm sure it's just an oversight, but right. No, but thank you Okay, so What's it? What's your pleasure? Great, and if if he can't let Meredith know And we can you know we can always table it again if absolutely necessary. We'd have to do it at the meeting But obviously it'd be easier if he can Make it in two weeks, but understand people's schedules Mr. Singer did you have any comments that you? Okay Sounds good So there has been a request from the applicant to table this to our next meeting which will be June 17 17th So I'll make a motion that we table this application through on River Street until June 17th. Good luck. Thank you for your time. All right. Thank you Oh We have a sketch plan Something else to do. All right With that, that's our only item of business our next regularly scheduled meeting is for Monday, June 17th 2019 7 p.m. Same place and location Have a motion to adjourn same place and location. Yes, so moved