 Transitional Justice on a Monday here on Think Tech, why I'm J. Fidel and our guest today, Manuel Felipe Mora Perez, and he is going to talk to us about, um, about Columbia and about transitional justice in Columbia and about truth commissions as opposed to, um, commissions that punish people. It's different. Yeah. And, um, and of course we want to know about democracy in Columbia. So welcome to the show, Manuel. Thank you very much, J. I'm very happy to be here. Very grateful as well. So it's, it's an honor for me to be here today. Why are you here and not in Bogota? Oh, you know, it's, it's a bit of a long story. I, I went to the French school in, uh, Columbia. So I did like, uh, a traditional school trajectory, French school trajectory. Um, then when I was, when I finished the high school, I decided to stay in Columbia for a year. But then after that year, I decided to came to, to, to come here to France and I'm in Leon. It's been five years now since I'm in Leon, uh, studying law. Yeah. So I guess, I guess you're studying law in, in French. In French. Yes. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. The civil code, the civil code, the famous civil code, the Napoleon code as they, as some people called it here. So yeah, it's like very traditional, formal French law. Is that the same, the same as in Columbia? It's pretty much the same. At least, uh, the French civil code is the foundation of most civil codes in South America. Uh, and particularly in Columbia, there's, there's, there's been a lot of French law influence in the legal system. Ah, okay. I went to, I went to court Paris one time and I, I found it's so different from the American style. What happened in the court room? Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, in, in, in the U S it's the legal system. It's common law. Um, here in France is continental law as they call it, but we call it other ways, but yeah, it's, it's very different yet, uh, there, there's also some similarities to it. So it's very interesting to study both systems. So you're in Europe and that's so interesting to be in Europe now, because there's, you know, so much speculation about which way Europe will go, which way NATO and the EU, and for that matter, France will go and, and who knows, but the, um, the election, which is happening now in stages, uh, between Macron and, um, Marine La Pen, uh, will determine whether France is, uh, on the Ukrainian side of things on the NATO side of things on the EU side of things or not. Um, and this could have a huge effect on the way France goes and the way Europe goes going forward on the Ukraine phenomenon. Don't you think? Oh yeah, for sure. You know, France is like with Germany, there are like the two, uh, leaders, uh, in Europe, in the European Union and, uh, the actual president Emmanuel Macron, he's been a very like, uh, supportive of the year of the European Union and what's been done and the very supportive of the, uh, common response to the crisis in Ukraine. So it's very interesting to see, uh, that, uh, today the election thing and like everything coming up together to this crucial moment in history in France, it is indeed very interesting to see what's going to happen. As you say, if Marine Le Pen wins, well, uh, that kind of things like the European Union, the international community, French participation in the international community can be like, um, the base subject to debate. If Macron wins, of course, there's continuity, but you know, it's, it's very, it's very debatable right now in France about it and in Europe as well. But also in the world, because, you know, France is one of these powerful countries who leads somehow international community and the European Union. So it's very interesting. Yes, very interesting. Yeah, I'd say it's scary. Um, because, uh, I mean, it's scary that Marine Le Pen could win, but it's also scary for when you call it French democracy and it says, and I wonder what people, you must talk to people and Leon, is that where you are? Uh, you must talk to them and how do they feel when they tell you they're supporting, uh, Marine Le Pen, do you ask them why and, and what do they say when you ask them that? Well, you know, I, I don't use to. Um, like to hang out with people that support, um, Marine Le Pen because, uh, the, the people that vote Marine Le Pen are people that are usually quite old or that don't live in the big cities, but you can find also people that live in the big cities, but like they are very rich. They are very French, like traditional French families that go back to the very root of Frenchness, if I may say so. So I really haven't, um, debated on Marine Le Pen winning. Of course, I've talked to my French friends and my French professors and, you know, the people I, I, I used to hang out with, and it's very interesting to see that for some people, Marine Le Pen, like they know she represents, uh, this nationalist rise in France, but she also represents like the change of, uh, France being what in French is called, which is the country that receives everyone somehow. And that's one of the main, like top and key issues about her campaign, the immigration. So me, myself as an immigrant, of course, I wouldn't want her to win. And when I talk to my fellow immigrants, like the people I work with, the people I've been here with in France for the last five years, it's very scary to think about Marine Le Pen, uh, winning because, you know, it, like she's not into, into immigrants. And that's, uh, that's a fear we have. And for the French people, it's also a fear, but you know, they are, the nationalist moving is having lots of support, uh, is having lots of support in the last few days, the last few weeks, the last few years. So yeah, as you say, it's scary. We'll see what happens. Um, and, uh, well, that's about it. You know, it's, it's a crucial moment in, actually, when you look at it. Well, it reflects a trend, uh, if you will, a growing trend to the right, uh, not only in France, but other countries in Western Europe, and that will ultimately affect, uh, the solidarity of the coalition, um, to help, uh, Ukraine. So I worry about that on a larger scale because if Ukraine fails, if it's abandoned by Western Europe, we have a whole different issue and, uh, phenomenon that, that will, that will, uh, have an effect on the world, my view. Yeah. No, you're right. It's, it's very, it's an important moment right now, crucial moment. I mean, we're living history right now. We're actually being in history right now at the moment, and especially here in Europe, not only France, you know, but also Germany, Spain, Italy, other countries and the NATO allies, of course. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Well, I'd like to check back with you in another show and see, and see how all this moves. So returning, returning to Columbia, you know, Columbia is a really interesting place because Columbia has at least the, um, you know, the start, the possibility, um, the emergence of one of the more successful democracies, perhaps the most successful democracy in Latin America, uh, or at least south of Mexico. I'm not sure how successful you would say Mexico, but, but it's at least south of Mexico. It's clearly a winner. Um, the FARC agreement, uh, God should make that one stay together. Um, and, um, you know, the development, we talked to, uh, Juan Pablo, uh, do you know him Juan, Juan Pablo Tello? Uh, he's a lawyer practicing in Bogota and he tells us he's working on infrastructure in the sense that infrastructure he believes can help the government reach all the rural areas in Columbia and thus bring security and prosperity, uh, to every corner of Columbia. And that would help democracy. Um, but you know, the title of our show is about truth commissions. And I, and I wonder where that comes into play in this development of democracy in Columbia. Do, do, does Columbia need a truth commission? What's that all about? Okay. So, you know, um, democracy, when you think of democracy, you can think of many things. And one of the main things about democracy is participation and participation is very important in all democratic processes, but especially in Columbia, because it's a country that although has had, um, like some interesting developments in the democratic system still has lots and lots and lots to do as to the participation and the guarantees of participation, political participation in Columbia. Um, as you say, when you, when, when you tell me about infrastructure and like, um, get into the far and isolated regions in Columbia, of course, there's also here like a democratic concern about it, especially after the armed conflict. So the truth commission is like a transitional institution, a transitional mechanism that is that was created, uh, with the peace accords in 2016. And the mandate of the commission is to like conduct a very thorough study and report on the armed conflict on what happened, why it happened, who were the actors, what were the consequences of, uh, the participation in the conflict. And it's entered in the victims. So in my opinion, it is an institution that is very, very, um, important and very useful for the development of democracy and the peace building process in Columbia. Explain that to me in, in, in terms of the, you know, the, the sociology of it and the politics of it. Why is it important? So it is important because the armed conflict in Columbia, you know, for, for those who, who don't have like particular background in this, it's, it's a very, very long conflict to more than 50 years. Of armed conflict and hostilities, uh, 50 years were not only, uh, state armed force were opposed to rebel armed force, but, you know, there's been also like lots of participants that we didn't know of until today and the works of the commission. So that's one reason, uh, why it is important because, uh, because of, of the mandate it has the commission to really produce and inform an editorial report on what happened during the conflict. And like to satisfy the right to truth. That's why is it called a truth commission. So by the end of, of the commission's mandate and work, the idea is to produce a final report. That's, uh, what is called and this final report will contain all the information's about the conflict and about what really happened during the conflict. Of course, it has the different approaches, differential approach, gender approach. So you really get, uh, to have a profound insight on what happened in the conflict. It's meant to help society, uh, bring about reconciliation, knowing what happened, facing perpetrators, facing victims. And you know, like, uh, starting to construct historical memory in order to, to the peace building process and the implementation of the peace accords. I have so many questions for you, Manuel. Um, go ahead. All right. So, um, what is the truth? I think you alluded to, um, you know, oh, trying to figure out why people were at war with each other. Um, is that what it is and why they, um, why they committed, um, you know, these what do you call it, crimes against the people, atrocities against the people? What motivated them to do that? What did they would guess that they were very angry as a group? Why were they angry? I mean, I suppose this is what the commission would look into. What, well, how did the society break down to the point that people were killing each other and, you know, engaging in atrocities? But, but gee, whiz, it's been five years. Um, why, why has this taken so long? And my, my third question, which I'll get, I get to other questions in a minute, but my third question is assuming that soon enough, you know, this commission comes out with the quote truth end quote. It sounds like our select commission on the insurrection here in the US, you know, um, assuming it gets to a final report. What is, what does that mean? Is that the end of it? Uh, is that reconciliation? Is it forgiveness? Um, can you say that this would bring things to a closure? And how would that work? Okay. So you have to keep in mind that the Truth Commission in Columbia, but I think most of the truth commissions in the word are embedded in what's called a transitional justice system, which of course, um, the idea of transitional justice and transitional institutions is to help society, um, transit from a period of atrocity and crime, since instability to a period of peace and stability. When I say peace, it's not like the peace all around the place, but you know, stability at least. Um, so the truth commission, as you say, is looking into what happened is looking into, um, who did the things that happened? Um, is looking into who were the actors? What were the reasons? What were the consequences both in terms of individual responsibility or individual like experience also collective experience and institutional experience? And coming to your question about the truth. So truth is very complex notion and concept. What I mean by truth and what the commission means by truth is to have like to conduct a historic, historic, um, radiography, if I may say, about the conflict and, and that's about it. So the right to truth is like what happened in Colombia? What happened to the victims that we don't know about, but maybe the perpetrators do know about and facing what happened? Um, but what about just a small point on that? You know, Columbia is, is, is famous for drugs and cartels and dangerous drugs and cartels that, you know, that protected their business with every manner of crime. Um, so is that part of the mandate of the truth commission, um, to find out about these cartels and, and to the extent the cartels are still in business. And I, I surmised that at least some of them still are. How do you, how do you get information about a cartel that's still in business? I mean, it's, it's quite difficult. Um, some of the past, um, aspects of the drug war, as we call it, are indeed part of the transitional justice system, but not as a whole, uh, because the transitional justice system in Colombia, it's most, well, it's, you know, it's about the, the peace agreements and the end of war between the ancient guerrillas, FARC and the government of Colombia. But of course, you know, it's, it's, it's very complex. The armed conflict in Colombia, as I was telling you, so of course, there is the drug problem, uh, indeed is one of the key aspects of the peace accords as well, like conduct, like comprehensive, rural reforms and in order to bring about solutions to this problem. Um, the commission in its mandate, of course, includes the drug problem. And what the commission do is like she, she collects, it collects, uh, evidence from what happened, uh, audiences, uh, testimonial and, uh, in other aspects of the evidentiary aspects and tries to construct what happened to reconstruct history as it happened, or at least as we thought it happened. And the, the problem about the actual curtail system, it's very difficult because they are not part of the peace agreements. They are not part of the transitional justice system. So I wouldn't say the commission has a mandate to, uh, like to collect information about that, but rather it's just like another issue, uh, that falls upon the scope of the, of the government, you know, ordinary just. So who, who is it for? In other words, someday, you know, hopefully soon, but whenever it happens, there'll be a final report. I imagine there have been, there have been partial reports up to this point too. Who, who, who is the, the audience here? Who is the recipient? Who will sit and read it? Who will sit and be affected by it? Who will be curious about what's inside the cover? Will it be the government? Will it be business? Will it be the press, you know, the privilege, the few, or will it be the unprivileged many? Who is it directed to? Well, hopefully, uh, everybody will be concerned, uh, in the final report. That's what, uh, I think that's what the final report is, is meant to be like this, uh, this tool to everybody, to each and everyone to each Colombian and to the society as a whole, of course, also to the institutions. There have been, uh, like preliminary reports, lots of activities. You know, I was an intern for a month in the, in the truth commission in Colombia a few years ago. It was in 2019, I think. And it's very interesting the work they do. Of course, it takes lots, lots of time. That's what people and society must understand that transitional justice is not a thing that, you know, you cannot bring about the solutions in a month or two, but it takes sometimes several years. So the final report is meant to be, um, published this year by July, I think, or June or July. Well, that's right around the corner, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, when you think about it, you really, you actually don't know if, if, if the date is going to be respected, but it's not because the commission, uh, is not doing the work it's meant to do, but it's because, you know, it's very difficult to produce such a, such a final report. And the final report will, of course, also be like, uh, directed to when the recipient will be also the government institutions. And, um, what they will do is that they will include like a full list of recommendation, recommendations to see what can be improved, what changes could be done to bring about, uh, better, yeah, like better institutional and the contribute to the peace building process. Yeah, that's very interesting. So maybe there'll be reforms in the report. I mean, suggestions or reforms and should organize the government, you know, in a different way should give people more human rights, more rights of representation. I suppose, you know, you can have constitutional changes that flow out of the report like this. If they want to come up with things that will improve the country and minimize the risk that this will happen again, uh, then they would, they would look to restructuring everything. No. Yeah, that's, that's what we're hoping for. That's, I think that's, that would be like the greatest achievement of the commission, not only, um, being, uh, being like the, the, the institution that I don't want to say it tells the truth, but I mean, the institution that actually looked into history and looked into what happened, but also the institution that because of what happened and because of the findings thereof, uh, can recommend proper, proper, uh, changes in the institutional. Well, I would, I would guess, Manuel, that the government, at least in what 2016 when it began, uh, had a lot to do with organizing this Truth Commission. I mean, it couldn't, it couldn't really start without the blessing of the government, I think. And so I have a couple of questions for you on that. A, why didn't the government do this? Just do it. Just do it. Assigned the, um, the Colombian version of the FBI with a Department of Justice in the US and started an investigation. Um, why didn't they do it? Uh, they, I guess they wanted to stand aside for some reason. They wanted to let some third party commission do it instead. What was the reason for separating the commission and those in the government who are responsible for enforcing the law? So, you know, um, lots of investigations about what happened during the armed conflict are linked to public authorities and public officials, uh, government officials, but also the military. So, um, the idea to have this third party commission or this independent commission was to really, uh, gain independence and impartiality. So that was there a concern the government would be corrupt about it? It's, uh, it was a concern and it still is. It's a concern. And that's why there is, uh, the truth commission that is separate from both the, uh, the former armed groups and like non-state actors and the state itself. So yeah, it's it's, uh, that's like the, um, the interest of the commission being independent. And of course, that's why the government didn't, like you say, just like just commission, the commission to do that sort of thing, because you have to remember that the commission came out of the peace accords between the former far. Okay. Yeah. It was really like something that was negotiated that both parties conclude to be the best way, um, for building. So, um, you know, the other thing is that in the final report, there may be some, um, you know, accusatory findings. And let's say, for example, that, um, John Smith, um, uh, was engaged in atrocities and he organized the murder of many people. And we didn't know that before. The truth commission found that out and now reports that to us. Does this mean that he is ex-copated pardoned forgiven? Or does it mean that somebody is going to actually go out and prosecute him now that we know he did that? So you have to know that the truth commission is one of the transitional institutions and mechanism of the transitional justice system in Colombia. The commission goes along the, um, the JEP is like the special jurisdiction for peace. It's like a specialty court, uh, that actually inflicts, uh, well, that actually, uh, punishes, uh, mass atrocities and, uh, you know, like really prosecutes the people that were involved in atrocity crimes during the armed conflict. So the final report of the commission and the findings thereof, uh, are meant to contribute to the historical endeavor of, uh, of what happened during the conflict. Of course, the people are concerned by atrocity crimes that are potentially perpetrators or alleged perpetrators or confessed perpetrators because the truth commission is also about telling the truth about what happened, what you did, if you are a victim or you are a perpetrator, uh, the findings that are that fall under the scope of the special court, the special jurisdiction for peace will have to be transferred to these, uh, to this court in order to be prosecuted and judged. Oh, so there might, there might be prosecutions then afterwards. And these prosecutions in, in courts that are organized in, uh, Columbia, not international but in Columbia, of course, of course, but not because, not because of the commission and the findings thereof, but because there is a specialty court provided for, that he was provided for in the piece of course as well. So they do like different jobs, you know, mandate is very different, but they are somehow interconnected and intertwined between them. Those courts haven't started yet though. They're waiting on the report. No, no, no, they do. They do. The, the, the specialty court, the, uh, special jurisdiction for peace, it's been, uh, it's been, uh, it's been ongoing for about two or three years, I think, and they last year, they started to, um, to charge the former, um, non-state actors with, uh, mass atrocities. So crimes against humanity and war crimes because they apply, uh, provisions from the wrong statute. So they are working, but it also takes, takes a lot of time. So Manuel, you know, is this, do you think, I mean, this is a really interesting part of the FARC agreement, uh, creating the truth commission and creating these specialty courts, uh, trying to find a path for reconciliation and justice in the country. Is it working? Um, do you think it will work going forward? Does it, does it need to be tuned up? Does it need to be changed or extended or revised in some way? Uh, so is, is it doing what it was supposed to do? It is doing what it's supposed to do. Um, I think however that it needs to be tuned up, you know, because the actual government, uh, is not very, you know, they were very critical about the peace, the peace accords, the peace agreements, and they are very critical of the transitional justice system. They have allowed the work to be executed, but you know, they are very critical of it. So that caused that in the last, um, in the last few years, you know, many people say that the transitional justice system isn't working. It's not doing their work. It's taking too much time. But I think, I think one have to understand that it takes time. It takes a lot of time to do, to do so. But you know, it's going to be for me, the greatest achievement in, in institutional history in Colombia, because it is very well thought. It is very well executed. And you know, me, I, I, um, I'm fond of the peace lover. And I, I truly support the transitional justice system. Lots of difficulties, lots of things to do to improve. But you know, it's, it's going well. And I think it's going, it has a lot, a lot of potential. So when you go back after school, will you go back and participate in the process? That's one of the things that interests me the most. Yes, of course, to be able to go back to Colombia and participate in this peace building process. Of course, I'm also like looking to other opportunities. And what I'm trying to do is like gaining the relevant experience, professional experience. And if I ever go back to Colombia, like being able to really contribute to this peace building process in a concrete and a proper way. When you see yourself as an international lawyer, and that isn't necessarily anonymous with going back to participate in a national initiative, because the FARC and the reconciliation process is a national initiative, not an international one. So I sense that there's a lot, there's a lot of other things you can and maybe will do in international law. But with due regard for the fact that you are familiar with the reconciliation process in Bogota, in Colombia. Oh, yes. And I guess my question to you is, is, is what is happening there in this process useful in other countries in Latin America, in Africa, in other places in the developing world? Do you think you might be involved in setting up similar reconciliation processes in in those places too? I think, I think yes, of course, it's, it's like, you know, the Colombian peace process is, it's a peace process and the transitional justice system is something that's like, like, like I said before, it's very well done and is being well executed, well, at least like how it is, how it is provided. So I think yes, it's going to be a good example for many other countries that are facing arm conflicts or systematic atrocities. Like, you know, it's like, like a useful foundation and framework that can be provided from the Colombian experience. And of course, international law brings lots of tools to these kind of process. Lots of framework, of course, as well. So yeah, definitely, I think the Colombian, the Colombian example will be helpful to many, many other countries in Africa or also in the region. So when you look around in your classes in school in Leon, are there more like you? Are there more people who are studying international law so they can have a positive effect in terms of developing, you know, societies that are peaceful in places that have not been peaceful? You know, I think, I think when you do international law, you are faced with disciplines that that are meant to bring solutions to atrocity situations and atrocious contexts. So of course, I, I, you know, I deal with with my my fellow colleagues in either in in PEG because I'm an internet at PEG, but also like in the university and in college. Of course, everyone has this peaceful vocation, if I may say, and everyone wants to help to contribute either nationally or internationally. But, you know, the main goal is to achieve some kind of national stability, global stability, and of course, national stability, you know, for me, I never forget my country and I am, you know, I'm very interested in contributing afterwards to to the building process. Right now, you know, I ask everybody from PEGA, Project Expedite Justice, I ask everybody is the, you see, do you see a trend here in atrocities and war crimes around the world? Is it, is that phenomenon decreasing or increasing? And I get a lot of people say, no, it's increasing indeed. If you look at what's happening in Ukraine and Vladimir Putin, it certainly seems to be increasing. And he is, he's so far completely impugned from any accountability for the ongoing murder, the genocide, if you will, of so many people in Ukraine is really remarkable that this keeps ongoing in the world. Everyone in the world knows about it. And yet he keeps doing it. And then you have an like an article in the New York Times the other day, and what it says is historically leaders, autocratic leaders, tyrants, who have engaged in war crimes and atrocities are not accountable for as long as they remain the leader. It's an interesting formula. If you remain the leader, you don't you wind up not being accountable. You only get to be accountable. It's a sort of an inverse comparison, an inverse relationship. If you if you're not the leader, if you're somehow deposed or ousted as the leader, then you'll be prosecuted. Any thoughts about that? And do you feel that we have more war crimes these days or less war crimes? I mean, I think you picked the right, I think you picked the right application manual. There'd be plenty of work for you going forward. Yeah. Um, I think, yeah, indeed, it's a phenomenon that's increasing. I mean, with what happened in Ukraine, it was like a before and an after in international law, and especially in the human rights, international law and, and, and that fields of international law. It is, as you say, something that, you know, it's it's very like there's work to do. It's also very meaningful work, but it's also very hard, you know, being confronted to this kind of atrocities. And like having the obligations to bring about solutions to this kind of context, very, very difficult context. But you know, it's very meaningful. And I mean, I'm proud, I'm proud of it. I'm proud of what I do. I try always to stay humble and like keep, keep up with the good work and bring thoughtful solutions and thoughtful. Yeah, like to apply my skills to their, to their better. That manual, you know, there are those people, including people that we have had on the show in one capacity or another, who feel very optimistic about you and your generation, you and your orientation, and that there's a new there's a new group, a new generation coming up who is familiar with these issues and dedicated to the notion of trying to do reconciliation, trying to create democracy, trying to perpetuate human rights everywhere. And you know, I meet a lot of people just like you, who are, you know, admirable in the sense that they they have committed so far in their young lives, they have committed to do this and they and they will do it for, you know, their entire life. But do you see that too? Do you feel that there's a generation coming up that will ultimately prevail against the autocrats, against the monsters, against the war criminals? Do you feel that there's a lot of you out there? You feel that there's a generation that will have an effect on this? Are you optimistic? Yes, yes, for sure. Well, at least I I most certainly do hope so that young people like me, but not only lawyers, you know, that many other disciplines will be able to contribute to to make in the world better and to fight authoritarian regimes and being able to bring visibility to atrocity and war crimes and well everything that you say. I am confident. I also think that work needs to be done, like many young people are also losing interest to it, because as you were saying before, you get lots of people, lots of authorities that have been like in the hurricane of atrocity, but still work every day like nothing happened, are free of any charge. So it can be very frustrating, especially international law because you know, international law, they say that it's very concrete, but at the same time, at the same time is very abstract. So you need to have like a particular mindset and willingness to do to do good and to do great. Which for you, do you see a place for yourself or others your classmates, your colleagues in Ukraine to rebuild Ukraine to to do, I guess I would call it a truth commission, or there's a lot of truth to be discovered there. No kidding. Do you see, you see the possibility of that? I do see the possibility, you know, it's it's been, it's already been discussed, like the proper response to the Ukrainian crisis and to to the Russian aggression. I think it may take some time because you don't know what's really happening in Russia. You know, it's been very hermetic. But you have the Western countries, NATO, the European Union, the United States, and that are working on it, like how to come up with solutions and everything. Of course, I believe in the reconstruction of Ukraine. I mean, it would be it would be a shame not to do it. It would be, you know, it's what needs to be done. And solutions will be will be brought to light, hopefully soon. But yeah, for sure, for sure, that it's going to be something to to look at later on. Thank you, manual. Manual Philippe Mora Perez, a master's student international law in Leon France, and associated with project expedite justice. Thank you so much for joining us. And thank you for answering my questions and engaging in this important conversation. My pleasure. As we say, au revoir. Thank you very much. It was a pleasure being here with you guys. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.