 on the web. Thank you very much. Okay, good. And I'm going to mute myself too. Right. Well, thank you very much indeed for that, that's a warm welcome and the invitation to speak today. It's really a great privilege and a pleasure to be with you all this morning. This lecture, and it's going to be about an hour, and then we'll have some questions and comments, and it's all illustrated. This lecture, I'm going to share my screen now, and this will be an illustrated lecture. We'll slide show from the beginning, right? Okay. So it's going to consider the Eastern Christian approaches, the Christian Muslim relations, and its expression, the expression of its practice in contemporary Syria, both before and during the current conflict. The paper will outline, briefly outline the religious landscape in Syria. It'll examine how Eastern Christianity has engaged with that landscape, both historically and contemporaneously, and consider just a few contributions of Eastern Christian thought to Christian Muslim relations in Syria. As well as leading several groups to Syria, the visit to before the conflict, my research has taken me to Syria 10 times since 2014, traveling widely and meeting hundreds of ordinary Syrians, as well as faith, community, and political leaders in areas most affected by the conflict, such as Aleppo, Homs, Darar, Deir ez-Zor, and villages bordering Idlib province. For practical and safety reasons, the research undertaken for this PhD was told within government-held areas, and areas recently returned to government control. Given that the social and religious context within these areas of Syria, where at least 70% of the Syrian population live, have not been represented within Western academic, religious, and political and media discourse, this research offers an original contribution to scholarship, and it's the only one thus far that seeks to fill that gap in understanding. And I'm very pleased that this will be published in just a couple of weeks by Ralph Plage, and very pleased as well that the forward has been written by His Holiness Patriarch Afrem, the Syriac Author of Patriarch of Syria. Among the several conclusions of the study are that sectarianism, as we understand it, is primarily a Western discourse that is inadequate to describe the complex communal frameworks of Levantine society and has provided a misleading understanding of the context. In fact, to speak in sectarian terms is not appreciated inside Syria. That's given some complications, but I've had discussions on this at all, in terms of Christian Muslim in a society, can create difficulties, because it's not appreciated. And secondly, the significance of theology and spirituality of the entire heme paradigm of Eastern Christianity has been under-recognized, and possessing a deep ecclesiastical rarity and long-standing engagement with the cultural environment, with Islam is uniquely placed to play a major role in Christian Muslim dialogue and the reframing of Islam's engagement with modern society in Syria and in the wider region. So I'm going to address some of that Eastern Christian contribution and a little bit considered the Protestant contribution as well, which is significant. So the Christian landscape, very briefly, the religious and cultural identity of Syria is deeply influenced by the history of Christianity. Yet although Eastern Christianity constitutes one of the largest Christian traditions in the world, until recent years it has been significantly understudied. It is often forgotten that prior to the Islamic conquest there was a diverse Christian presence across the Arabian Peninsula and in the Levant. This plurality, which evolved to include all five families of the Christian Church, and almost every Christian denomination, is a feature of a serious society that is often overlooked today. It still exists there. Today Damascus is home to three anti-Akin patriarchates of the Eastern Orthodox, the Syriac Orthodox, and the Greek Melchite Judges. After the initial Muslim invasions, which were often bloody and brutal, and once the legal status of non-Muslim populations as the heme deduct, those populations were regarded as second-class citizens, kufr subject to the jizya and multiple other taxes. During the eight and ninth centuries, Christian adopted the language Arabic, becoming vital conduits of Greek philosophy and theological dialogue, and playing an important administrative role in the courts of the Caliphs. Notwithstanding their violence and brutality, the Crusades was a time of encounter between Western and Eastern Christendom and with Islam. Before the nation states of speeding through history, just of introduction, a lot of this, of course, has dealt with a much more depth to the book. Before the nation states were created in the 20th century, the main night density mark of the people of the region was their religion. Under the Ottomans, religious identity was formalized of course in the milit system, which enabled a communal administrative autonomy to the religious communities. Importantly, the principles of this communal religious autonomy behind the system are reflected in current religious structures. The situation of Christians improved further during the Tanzimat period of political and economic reform in 1850 to 1857 to 1860. The new freedoms given to non-Muslims during that time and the economic advantages that gave to the Christian merchant classes in the region, due to strengthening each trade opportunities with Europe, caused tension and violence between Christian and Muslim communities such as the Frasierius riots in Lebanon and Damascus in 1860. Although encounter with the Catholic Church started with the Crusades, it wasn't until the 18th century that the Catholic family of churches was established in the region. Protestants arrived in the 19th and 20th century. From an Eastern Orthodox perspective, the presence of Western Christianity, inherently different in structure and theology to the East, has often been a source of disunity, division, and conflict. Tensions remain, although ecumenical relations have improved significantly in recent years. Kaldian Bishop of Aleppo Antoine Ardo wrote in 2010, the vocation of Eastern Christians is to become a bridge or better a model of communion between the Christian West and the Muslim world. Echoing this vision, Syrian Orthodox Bishop of Kamishle, Bishop Maurice Sitzeme and Damascus, the leaders of the denominations are now very close. We are called to present the face of Christ the world and in unity is our strength. In recent years, given the increasing fragility of and the pressure upon the Christian presence, there has been a very significant re-examination, particularly by the Middle East Council of Churches, of the role and identity of Christians in the Middle East. Towards the end of the Ottoman Empire, Christians numbered about 30% of the population in Greater Syria. That figure is now, of course, believed to be less than 5%. Conflict and emigration due to economic, cultural, and political limitations have made a role in this decline. And one cannot forget the wider context of Israel, Palestine, the genocide in Turkey, the rise of militant Islamism, the consequences of the Iraq conflict, all have been devastating, and of course, more recently, the Syrian conflict, all have been devastating for the Christian presence. But there's another story as well. Syria has also been a place of refuge for centuries, for Armenians and Syriacs, for Iraqis and Palestinians. And Syria has played an important role in the renaissance of Eastern Christianity in the Levant. Since the start of the conflict in Syria, Christian emigration from Syria has multiplied significantly. Razek Seriani, and I'm delighted to see he's here with us now, he writes this. No wonder Christians in Syria felt threatened and unprotected when the uprising started in March 2011 and when it later took on a militant aspect. Christian communities felt the rise of militant Islam against the ruling regime and its initial success would threaten their very presence and protection. This led to a mass exodus of Christians, particularly intellectuals and young people from Syria. The reason for this large scale of emigration is that many Christians feel that a society marked by tolerance, safety, plurality, and coexistence will be replaced by one that is exclusive, monolithic, and fanatically Islamic. Such fears are not exclusive to Christians. Many Muslims have opted to leave the country for similar reasons, yet many Christians, despite the atrocities and difficulties of life in a war situation, have opted to remain in the country or have left only as a last resort. That quote by Seriani has echoed multiple times by the numerous Christians and Muslims, Sunni and Shia, that I've met in Syria. As we shall see, despite the fear and the fracturing of trust, religious leaders have been working hard to encourage and restore trust between their communities and the church has been providing impressive levels of humanitarian support to the communities in which they live, which has been even harder to provide, particularly in the face of the huge effect of sanctions on Syria. So moving to Islam, the Muslim landscape. The Muslim landscape in Syria is also on a plurality. Muslims in Syria represent a demographic that is far from uniform in political, social, or religious adherence and practice. The figure of 87% of Muslims includes other Muslim groups, Kurds, includes the Kurds, Shia sects including Alawites, Ismaili and Druze. The fact that the Alawite Shia minority have held power for over 40 years and helped promote secular modernity has fueled resentment among some Sunnis that has long predated the current crisis. Both the present and previous governments under Bashar and his father Hafaz al-Assad have sought to quell communal tensions by including representation from all communities within parliament and the leadership with the army and encouraging religious freedom for minorities. However, all communal groups have been accused of manipulating communal tensions for political advantage. Thomas Pierre writes, there is no such thing as a unified religious scene. One must also recognize that many Sunnis support an Arab nationalist perspective as opposed to political Islamism. Tension between these two paradigms of Arab nationalism and political Islamism has heightened significantly in recent years and of course has contributed to political unrest. Islam in Syria has been deeply impacted by the Islamic reform, so-called reform movements, particularly the development of Salafism and the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood which I deal with in my book at some depth. During the last century there was considerable tension between the nationalist Islam, between nationalist Islam with its secular roots as expressed by the Baath Party and the political Islam of the Muslim Brotherhood which was brutally crushed in the 1980s but whose exiled leaders continued to wield significant influence in the external opposition supporting the militant fight against the Syrian government. Prior to the conflict factors influencing Islam in Syria included the polarisation of Sunni and Shia, the strengthening of Sharia law and conservative Sunni ideology, the secular constitution of the country, the rise of minority communities, the presence of large numbers of refugees from Iraq and Palestine and their respective communal allegiances, the impact of post-911 wars launched by the United States and its allies and the decentralized authority within Sunni Islam. All these affected the various tensions that were rising prior to the current conflict. In 2015, as part of my was looking at various Islamic approaches to reflections in the society, in 2015 a report exploring the role of Sunni Muslim religious discourse in the Syrian crisis was published. In it Dr. Mohamed Al-Habash, a former member of the Syrian Parliament but now critic of the Syrian government states, almost all Syrians are moderates and centrists. They do not support the war and destruction but instead seek reconciliation and coexistence. The report also examines peaceful interpretations of jihad. However, the sectarian violence perpetrated by militant groups in areas that they controlled or sought to capture in Syria challenges the suggestion that equitable principles prevail amongst the multiple groups that have sought and still seek to overthrow the Syrian government. In 2017, the Ministry of Aqaf in Damascus produced a series of publications for Quranic teaching and sermons in all mosques in Syria. They are intended to challenge the intellectual and ideological principles behind taqfiri thinking and combat terrorism. Some will see this as an authoritarian means of controlling the mosques but it is also a constructive and needed response to the challenge of extremist ideology. The current grand mufti of Syria, Sheikh Dr. Ahmed Hassoun, much identified in the West, is a Sunni scholar who passionately supports religious plurality and the flourishing of the Christian community in Syria. At a meeting with him in Damascus in September 2016, he said to me, all human beings and brothers, we are related in God. If there is God, we will be asked one question on the day of judgment. Did you love one another? Religion must be a bridge that connects us. The grand mufti has been much criticized by conservative Sunnis for his liberal religious statements. When his son was assassinated in 2012 and he publicly forgave his son's killers at the funeral and invited them to come and meet him, their response was that they would come and meet him and that they would kill him too. So Muslim and Christian engagement during the conflict. Syrian society has been characterised by many types of inter-religious engagement, communal academic, social and religious, economic and political, with faith leaders acting as a bridge between their communities and the political leadership. What I share here will provide hopefully context to the discussion that proceeds. I'm going to share some practical examples of how this engagement during conflict has been lived out and then go to a more theological approach. Although trust has been damaged, religious leaders have sought to model good inter-religious relations. In towns, villages and cities throughout Syria, the attendance side by side of local Christian and Muslim leaders at community events is the norm, whether it be at a mosque, church or civic venue. This is more than pure symbolism and represents a communality that most Syrians value and wish to preserve and the symbolism has become even more important in the face of a profound loss of trust between communities. Religious leaders have also played an important role in encouraging local ceasefire and reconciliation arrangements in dozens of towns and villages. Notwithstanding Western skepticism about these initiatives, dozens of religious leaders and thousands of Christian and Muslim volunteers together have been involved in these processes. Fighting has been successfully ended in numerous cities, towns and villages throughout the country and thousands of fighters have been encouraged to lay down their weapons. In 2014, I attended a meeting of Shia, Sunni Christian leaders, along with representatives of government and opposition groups, just a few hundred meters from the frontline in Homs. The meeting ended when militant groups started targeting our building with shells. Two weeks later, one of those presence, Sheikh Mohammed, was shot dead when he crossed lines at the invitation of the rebels to renegotiate a ceasefire arrangement. As soon as he sat down, he was shot through the head. Madhula is one of the most important Christian villages in the Levant. In 2013, the village was attacked by hundreds of rebel fighters. The villagers said, the fighters included people from the rebel, from the Free Syrian Army, the Al-Furuk Brigades, Al-Fat Al-Hasur, Jabhatan Jabhatan Nasfar, Jashal Islam, Al-Hasham and all those various militant groups, many of them are linked to al-Qaeda, fighting together. The village leader stressed, we must emphasize that the so-called moderate Free Syrian Army were major partners in all of these. There was no distinguishing between the moderate groups and the extremist factions. On September 7th, September 2013, the militants murdered three males of a family after they refused to convert on the spot. Over the following months, the churches were desecrated, houses gutted and farmlands destroyed. One villager said, our souls are fractured. Another villager said, we spent hundreds of four years living together without a problem. It was only after residents of the village went to live and work in Qatar and Saudi Arabia and returned with sectarian tendencies that tensions developed. Another example, Qara is a sunny majority Christian minority village south of Homs, in which the two communities have lived side by side for centuries. One kilometer from the village is a seventh century monastery where a community of monks and nuns have lived since 1994. For six months in 2012-13, the area was occupied by ISIS. The monks and nuns stayed throughout and took in dozens of Christian families from the village. By night, sunny villagers at risk of death brought food to the monastery. When I spent three nights in 2015 there, ISIS was still only one kilometer away. Nightly battles were taking place and the monastery was being protected by Hezbollah fighters. In the village, the ancient Christian churches, which had been desecrated during the ISIS occupation, had already been restored by the Christian and Sunni villagers together. The Christian village of Sidneyer was besieged by rebels for six months. Its convent was a place of pilgrimage, has been a place of pilgrimage, for Christians and Muslims for centuries. When the town was close to being overrun in 2013, Christian and Muslim residents joined the Syrian army and Hezbollah in fighting the rebels whilst women and the elderly went into the churches and made two promises. One, that they would not give up their faith whatever happened, and two, that whatever happened they would refuse to hate. When I visited in 2017, the mother superior said to me, when you return to England, tell them to come to Sidneyer, to thank the Christians and Muslims of this town for saving this monastery and for saving Christianity in this land from the terrorists that your government are supporting. In 2017, I visited an area of orthodox villages in the hills between Latakia and Idlib. The villages had been completely destroyed by the rebels and the churches smashed and burned with extremist graffiti sprayed on the walls. Those who didn't flee in time were murdered. Now the area has been captured and the homes are already being restored. And in 2018, I visited the devastated city of Deir ez-Zor, where I was told only one Christian remains in the city, which had previously had a mixed population. Nevertheless, the Syrian orthodox church are doing remarkable work with the internally displaced there. This is never heard about in our Western media, of course. In Derran 2017, with the front line only five kilometers away, I marched through the main street arm in arm with the local Christian and Muslim leaders to open a new community center for all the people of the town. Millions are benefiting from Eastern orthodox and Syrian orthodox charitable projects across Syria. Programs include health and education projects, distribution of basic needs, provision of shelter and water, restoring homes, vocational training programs, and cycle social care for traumatized people of all ages. All highly affected by the impact of sanctions. And we must not forget the 6.9 million internally displaced in Syria. The Syrian Russian governments, the Syrian-Arabic, Crescent, UNICEF, Syrian religious charities, and other agencies, such as SOS, Khartian, Dorian, have been doing an enormous amount to provide for them. At Christmas 2017, Chaldean Bishop of Aleppo, Atwan Adder wrote, At the start of the conflict, militants tried to pit Muslims against Christians, but they failed. Our country has a rich culture and history to which Syrians are loyal regardless of religion. Syria is more than one man. This is not well understood in the West. It is important that we continue to represent Arab Christianity, such as the Muslim and Arab world, that there are Christians with whom we can have a dialogue. The Salafist tendencies and extreme ideologies held by most of the militants have been well documented even by their supporters. Healing and the rebuilding, and that's quoted in my book, the references. Healing and the rebuilding of trust in these communities will take a long time, but religious leaders are already laying the foundations. And there remains widespread will in Syrian society to preserve tolerance, mutual respect and coexistence. Haroud Salimian, President of the Armenian Evangelical Church in Syria says, Syrian society has long been one of tolerance in which communities did not distinguish between religions, but shared the same land and resources. This culture is what needs to be nurtured and recovered in order to restore peace and understanding. As he saw in Orthodox Archimandrite Alexei Chahadeh, who sadly died of COVID in September, I think, he said to me, historically, Islamic society in Syria is not the same as the extremes Islam that is being imported from outside. That's a very important point. Most Syrians say the primary drivers of conflict were political and economic, though sectarian dynamics have, of course, been used to intensify division. Syrian Christians have seen what happened in Iraq and have witnessed brutal sectarian violence committed by Islamist groups against Christians and other minority groups during the Syrian conflict. However much Islamists claim to consider the interests of all Syrians, there has been no evidence of this in the conflict. As stated in the 2015 article, the treatments of minorities under Islamist parties remains an open question, and claims of goodwill mask different realities. Even the most liberal opponents of the Muslim Brotherhood have taken special care never to describe their Syria as secular, but only civil, with a broader explicit goal of an Islamic state still affirmed. No wonder most Christians have supported the secular government which has protected their social and religious freedoms. Christian leaders in Syria have been heavily criticised for this, but it is not just a pragmatic reality and necessity. This political negotiation of their position is rooted in the Ottoman milit system and a means by which the Christian communities have been able to wield positive influence, both for their own and for all communities. By comparison, just look at the State of the Church of England and its status with the national state as well. It's the specifically Eastern Christian dynamic to which I now turn. In the matter of Eastern Christian relations, Christian Muslim relations, Western churches and governments have neglected the importance of the Eastern Ecclesial Antiochian paradigm. The Eastern Christian paradigm is rooted in plurality of tradition and affirms the diversity of Arab culture. Here I'll consider the work of just three chief theologians who have been active and influential participants in the contemporary development of Christian religious and political thoughts in Syria and Lebanon. They are George Kodr who was born in 1923, Greek Orthodox Metropolitan of Lebanon, Antoine Alder born in 1946, currently Caldean Bishop of Aleppo, and I will also consider the Protestant influence on Middle Eastern inter-religious dynamics. Since the rise of Islamism and political Islam, there has been a shift in Christian self-identity among some Arab Christian denominations in the Middle Eastern milieu to a more assertive self-definition and a less accommodating engagement with Islam. At the same time, Christian communities continue to make a positive contribution to political religious discourse amidst the multiple internal and external forces which affect them. The uniquely Eastern Ecclesial paradigm is important, not just because it represents 12% of the global Christian population, Antoninimani writes, but because it includes Greek, Byzantine, Syriac and Latin traditions that create a long-standing plurality that affirms the diversity of Arab culture. This plurality goes back to the early Arab Church fathers who debated both amongst themselves and with emergent Islam. The interlocutors that follow the ones I have discussed show that the paradigm of dialogue and diversity, both ecumenically and inter-religiously, follows a continuous and ongoing tradition for Eastern Christianity until the present day. The patristic tradition is a living one. You often forget that. This identity of Eastern Ecclesial and Islamic plurality is one the contemporary Western theologians have in a way struggled to embrace, preferring a more unified perception of the Arab paradigm, Arabs and Muslims, not forgetting the plurality of Islam. In recent years, Arab identity itself has become increasingly contested, but plural entirely in Eastern Christianity has an ancient lineage which sustains a traditional diversity in Syria, evidence in all the religious communities and which has been understudied and under-recognized in wider discourse, and this is what I try to bring out in my book. In recent years, most religious leaders in Syria have spoken both privately and publicly of the need for reform in Syrian society, but have argued that reform should not be imposed from outside. Given the secular basis of the constitution and the degree of independence granted by the personal status laws, religiously this has been able to make a difference in society. Christian non-sectarian visions of statehood are different to that of Islam and represent one of the key contributions that the Christian community can make to the preservation of diversity, plurality and respect within Syrian society. The Christian vision of statehood can't control the state, but it can by means of a dialogical relationship with the state and with other communities seek to ensure that no one community is dominant. One of the fears for Christians and for other communities in Syria is the possible creation of a Sunni state, and this is a critical dilemma in aspirations for democracy within Syria. Given the communal balance in Syrian society, democratic ideals suggest that the Sunni minority majority should be into power, but would a Sunni government follow a democratic system of governance? Christians currently play a key role in balancing the complexity of communal dimensions of Syrian society. So the 20th century and beyond, the work of Christian scholars during the 20th century and the 21st century have been instrumental in sustaining dialogue and providing a framework for strengthening and developing Christian Muslim relations in an extremely tense and fractured political religious context. Western understanding of the Christian Muslim dynamic is indebted to the work of Louis Massignon, who lived from 1883 to 1962. A Greek Melchite priest was instrumental in raising the profile of Christian Muslim dialogue within the Catholic Church and has made a decisive contribution to the Vatican's new document Nostra et Arte. His influence on far beyond Catholicism actually is also worked with a Shiite scholar, Ali Shariati. And he regarded both Christian and Muslim responses to suffering as being rooted in his own hospitality, mutual compassion, and commitment to the other, to the stranger. And it's a theme that recurs in the thinking of George Kodda and Father Paolo Deluglio, who I also look at in my book, but I haven't got time to deal with here. Massignon regarded Abraham the founder of the Abrahamic faiths as the model of this hospitality. Through mystical engagement with each other, Massignon understood Islam as a mediator of grace and a providential guardian of the holy places. And he believed that the Syriac Catholic right, rooted in Eastern tradition, could help explain Islamic thought to the West. And that the quote, healing of divisions between Western and Eastern Christians, and of the antagonism and warfare between Islam and Christianity during one and a half millennia could flow from a spiritual experience of God, practiced and lived by believers, open to dialogical encounter with the other. An encounter that had taken place over centuries within the region, through the monasteries and through engagement and through living together. Massignon also argued for a greater role of the Arabic language and the emancipation of Islam within modernity. Throughout his life, Massignon's practice of contemplation, engagement with people, was rooted in the belief that God loves all equally. And that through sacred hospitality, we could encounter the divine in the other. This spiritual approach would receive a more sympathetic audience in Eastern Christianity, whose origins are deeply entwined with the spirituality of the desert and its encounter with the Arab world. Another important anti-Eastern Christian writer, or French, or is French orthodox delusion, Olivier Clemo, and I'm not going to go into him into detail now, but he is an important writer as well. And Syria is central to this Eastern Christian dynamic. As a result of the Iraq war and the Syrian conflict, many Christians have emigrated, but the plural nature and resilience of Eastern Christianity in Syria remains strong. Its historic and contemporary Ecclesial and theological contributions to inter-religious relations make it potentially a vital resource for the future. Of all Christian contemporary Eastern theologians who have explored Christian Muslim relations and dialogue, perhaps the most influential has been George Cuddup, the Greek orthodox Metropolitan, retired Greek orthodox Metropolitan of Mount Lebanon. He's written countless articles, mostly in Arabic, in which he quote, rekindles and reawakens the Christian theological flames of the early centuries that present the primordial and the simple Christian message of divine love. His writings are rooted in the patristic heritage and mystical theology of the Eastern Church, whose theology is rooted in common understanding of the other that speaks to the Christian Muslim dynamic. For Oriental Christianity, the Church Fathers represents a foundation for Christian faith and understanding because they are closest to the teachings of the apostles and because they quote, bring spirituality and theology together in a way that allows for the divine mystery to be revealed to and within all of humanity. As the Christian denomination in the region with most adherence, the Greek, the Eastern Orthodox contributions to Christian Muslim relations in the region is important. Rooted in the Byzantine tradition, the Eastern Orthodox Church was deeply impacted by the advent of the Ottoman Empire and the imposition of the millet system, which allowed a certain flourishing of the Christian communities. Rusos attributes this the outstanding economic and social record of the Christian minorities in the 19th century to their participation in expanding sectors of the economy, the foreign protection they enjoyed, their favorable situation following various reforms in the Ottoman Empire and Egypt, their Western education and the help they acquired from their co-religionists outside the region. Following the collapse of the Ottoman state, however, the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch had to renegotiate its status in a context that was overwhelmingly Muslim. This involves celebrating and affirming its indigenous Arab identity and promoting secular nationalism in order to secure equal status with Muslims. The identity of the Eastern Orthodox community in Syria is complex. It forms part of the Eastern Orthodox world and sees itself as indigenous to the Arab world. More numerous in Syria than in Lebanon, the Eastern Orthodox have, quote, walked a thin line between Syrian nationalism and Lebanon's uniqueness as a place where East and West compete on equal footing. Having previously sought to indigenize its theological contribution within the culture of the Arab world in order to establish its Eastern identity, this identity is once again being contested and debated in the light and the rise of political Islam and Islamic extremism. George Kodder was instrumental in the development of the growth of the Eastern Orthodoxy and since the 1940s and in Eastern Orthodox education as well. His childhood was spent very much within Arab context and influenced all his writings. I deal with that in some depth in the book and in the themes that underline Kodder's contributions. Kodder criticizes Western theology for its exclusive dogmatism and believes Eastern Christianity's mystical approach to theology represents a true reflection of Christian theology and spirituality. We are called to be Christians, not crusaders, he writes. Kodder urges new type of religious conversation, genuine dialogue from open-hearted, from one open-hearted person to another. For he writes, we may be outside as to one another dogma, but none are outside as to humanity and to the God with whom we have to do. For Kodder, the pervasiveness of Western thought and civilization is spiritually destructive since the West ends, quote, to consider man as the center of the universe. By contrast, he says, Eastern spirituality, particularly that of the desert, with its spirituality of detachment and the pursuit of truth is the place where the spiritual life can become, quote, incarnate in history as a movement ready to be transmitted by utilizing the instruments of knowledge, even politics itself, in the service of humanity. Kodder believes that Eastern culture and spirituality have the capacity to help Europe to transcend itself and be spiritually renewed in the service of humanity. In December 2017, I had the privilege of meeting with Bishop Kodder at his home in Lebanon. He was deeply reflective and not optimistic about the current prospect for the development of interreligious relations and dialogue. Echoing others with whom I have spoken, he was disappointed at the lack of death in Christian Muslim dialogue in recent years. One of the reasons he suggested that contemporary Islam is complete in itself, or contemporary Islamic thought, he said, are justifications for the truth of Islam. Additionally, he said, many Muslims feel deep and profoundly that the West is orientated against them. Speaking from decades of engagement with the with and reflection on the subject, Kodder continued, we as Christians are not courageous enough to face this reality. We are not hopeful enough to see that sometimes Islam could evolve in a way that could make itself more engaged in human destiny and the suffering of humanity. I feel that Christians too are still rooted in hierarchies, priesthood, and old legions of theology. We lack a real theology of engagement with the world. It is our duty as Christians to reveal the love of God in our dealings with others and with the world. This is what we can teach on Muslim friends. If we look back to the Christians in the first century, we can rediscover something of our faith. Mixed with the population and keeping the faith, they lived the gospel, to be witnesses of the gospel in our daily lives. This is the way forward. The Syriac Orthodox Church is part of the Oriental Orthodox family of churches and traces its roots to the apostolic ministry in Antioch. It has a rich history and the liturgical tradition. Situated originally in Antioch, the sea was forced to move in the 6th century owing to persecution. In the 13th century, it settled in the monastery of Deir ez-Pennanio, otherwise known as Deir ez-Zephan, in Mardin, Eastern Turkey, where the patriarch remained, patriarchate remain until 1933. Following the Sypho-Massacres, the patriarchate moved to Poms and then in 1959 to Damascus. And today, Damascus is the headquarters for the global Syriac Orthodox family, one of the most significant Eastern Christian communities. In 1995, it was reported there were 89,000 Orthodox in Syria, representing about 10% of the Christian population. Due to political instability and religious persecutions in the region, the Syriac Orthodox Church has declined in the Middle East, but grown significantly elsewhere, particularly Europe, Lebanon, and America. Patriarch Afrem was born in Kamishlan, Syria, and studied in Lebanon and Egypt. From 1996 until his election as Patriarch, he served in the Archbishop in the United States. Amidst the conflicts, the Syriac Orthodox presence in Syria has remained influential. The patriarchal headquarters of Maret-Satnaia trained clergy from all over the world, reflecting the Church's emphasis on education. A new university was opened by the Syriac Orthodox Church in Sanaya in 2018. Additionally, the charitable work of the Church to have since Afrem, patriarchal development committee, operates throughout Syria and is benefiting tens of thousands of people. I can't overstate the work of the Christian churches in Syria against all the odds and against the huge barriers that sanctions are placing upon them, the work of the churches in serving their people, Christian, Muslim, whoever they are, the people of Syria. The importance of presence of Christians in the Middle East is often stressed by both Christians and Muslims in Syria. As we've seen, the loss of a Christian presence would signal a devastating blow to Syria's religious and cultural plurality and would risk opening the gates, the domination of extreme political and religious ideologies in the national arena. In electorate 2015, entitled Do Muslims Need Christians in the Middle East, Patriarch Afrem said, I believe that Muslims need Christians to challenge themselves to live in a pluralistic and multi-religious society where they confirm their religious identity without being afraid of the other. Living together should be conceived by Muslims and Christians alike as a divine vision and plan. We Christians believe that God has placed us in the region with a mission of spreading love, tolerance and enlightenment. The Syria community has, however, been subject to extreme persecution. You've got the Syfo persecution in 1915, 500,000 Syriacs murdered then. You've got ISIS as well as, of course, the many Muslims murdered by ISIS, many Syriac Christians as well. The kidnap of the two Archbishops, the Greek Eastern Orthodox and Syrian Orthodox Archbishop in 2013 has had a profound effect, psychological impact on the Church. Patriarch Afrem says, fanaticism and religious extremism should not be allowed to spread in the region. It should be made known to all that Christians will not abandon their faith or alter their way of living because of the ideology of individuals and groups to moderation as foreign and tolerances alien. We will continue to live in peace with the millions of peace-loving Muslims, Jews and other religious groups in the Middle East. Christians, our mission is to spread love, peace and harmony in the world. Building bridges with Muslim societies is highly needed. Joint initiatives promote common values and so forth. Patriarch Afrem has also been a strong critic of Western support for militant groups. Speaking at the launch of a report on religious freedom at the House of Commons in London on 24th November 2016, he said, it's very important to identify who our persecutor is. The report suggested that the persecution of Christians is done by both state and non-state groups alike. We do not see it as such. The Syrian government has always been supportive of Christians. In Syria, violence against Christians is inflicted by the terrorist groups, including ISIS and El Nusra Fund, the desire to wipe us out of Syria. It is not the government or any official state authority that is committing violence attacks against Syria. In Syria, all discrimination and persecution that Christians are currently suffering from are carried out by the terrorist groups, some of which are internationally recognized as moderate-operate opposition. We urge all authorities not to adopt the wrong reading of the situation and not to commit the fatal mistake of justifying the wrongdoer. This will turn against us all. I'm going to turn now to Antoine Aldo briefly, the Chaldean Bishop of Aleppo, and then come to some of the Protestant Church and then conclusion. Antoine Aldo is Chaldean Bishop of Aleppo. The Chaldean Church is of Syria culture and in full communion with Rome. It emerged from the Church of the East due to a schism over succession in 1552 and continues to use the Syriac liturgy and Arabic in certain urban areas. Relations between the Sea of Rome and the Church of the East have improved considerably since Vatican II. The relations between the Chaldean Church and the Syrian Church remain trained. The Chaldean Church remains a truly indigenous and eastern expression of the Church in Syria. Born in Aleppo in 1946, Aldo became Jesuit in 1969. He was a very increased in 1979. He studied Damascus, Paris, and Rome and has held teaching posts in Lebanese universities. Both the Jesuits and Carmelite orders have strong presence in the Middle East and have contributed to the emergence of distinct Eastern Catholic tradition. Reflecting a common concern for both Christians and Muslims in the region, Aldo has been very concerned in his work to identify the relation between religious tradition and modernity and about the plurality of religious expression as a continuing element of Christianity and the Islamic tradition. And like Cuddo, Aldo's theology and spirituality is deeply rooted in the patriotistic tradition. He reminds us that Eastern spirituality embraces a variety of traditions emerging from the schools of Antioch, Alexandrian, Constantinople, and includes Armenian, Coptic, and Syriac traditions. And I go into a bit more depth into thinking there. He states, Christians accept plurality. We cannot reflect on our shared existence in Syria without dialogue. But this is more often more difficult for Islam, which finds it difficult to enter dialogue at a critical and historical level. And often dialogue will consist simply of affirmative speech. Islam in the Middle East cannot get away from a struggle with modernity and face the problem with the idea of secularism as this attacks something very deep within Muslim thought. But there's a difference between public and private speech since many Muslims recognize that without Christians, Syria will lose both its quality of life and its unique identity. The number of Muslims friends of mine in Syria who have said to me is numerous, actually. For goodness sake, don't lose the Christian communities in Syria. The Christian communities in Syria are vital to the nature of Syrian society. We cannot lose them. They're part of our plurality, part of our society. Aldo affirms the importance of the identity of Eastern Syria. And this identity is rooted in the Middle Eastern world and is communitarian and spirit hospital hospitable exists within the Muslim world, but too often becomes inward and distrustful of others. He states that Christians should engage politically, socially and culturally, both with Christians and Muslims, and that the interreligious encounter should take place daily and develop into deeper dialogue that has lived out and respectful of the other. He calls for a rereading of the contribution of Eastern Christians, the development of Arab and Muslim civilization. Now, a word on the Protestants and evangelical churches contribution, which is significant. The numerically small, most of the time, I've lost track of the time, the numerically small compared to other ecclesial groups. The contribution of Arab Protestants in a few evangelical churches to religious discourse in the Middle East should not be underestimated. Protestants and evangelical Christians have been termed a double minority, a numerical minority with a Muslim minority and a minority within a Christian minority. That's me sure I have been in Palestine. Nevertheless, their contribution to religious discourse, education and health provision, economic and political participation are very significant. According to the most recent figures, also from Siriani, Protestants and evangelical Christians number only about 0.3% of the population. But as we see, there has been historically problematic relationship between the Protestant churches in the Middle East and those of the Eastern Orthodox traditions. Questions of identity arise at the interface between Eastern Christians and Reformed Western tradition. How the ecumenical traditions have, I stress again, improved much improved in recent years. The Protestant presence in the Middle East dates to the early 19th century, first Protestant congregation being formed in Beirut in 1827. And it's been profoundly influential, in particular in the field of education and broadcasting as well. In 2006, Dr. George Sabra, the Prince of the Nias East School of Theology in Beirut, wrote an article confronting the issue of Arab and Eastern Christian and the dilemma of Christian citizenship and belonging, entitled Two Ways of Being a Christian in the Muslim context. Dr. Sabra discusses the dilemma of being Christian in a predominantly Islamic context and suggests that there have been broadly two ways in which Christians have responded to this reality. The first he sums up in the phrase, avoid a strain of Muslims to all costs, which results in an openness to the Islamic context and a desire to find common ground for sustaining coexistence. The second he sums up in the phrase, save Middle Eastern Christianity at all costs, an approach that affirms the distinctiveness of Christianity in relation to Islam and seeks to preserve Christian freedom and identity. These two responses to Islam have only been possible, he says, because of what he calls the Western factor. Sabra reminds us that Western influence is nothing new, even in the time of Jesus, Middle Eastern society was influenced by philosophy and language. And since the 5th century, the Eastern churches have been divided by Byzantine Christological controversies. Helpfully, Dr. Sabra describes these two positions, designating the first with the title Arab Christian and the second Eastern Christian. The first underlines the sense of self-identity with Arab culture, history and Islamic civilization, whilst the second does not limit Middle Eastern Christianity to an Arab identity, but underlines, quote, a critical distance from Islam and Islamic culture and tradition. The Arab Christian position has tended to prevail until recent times and has been associated with the Oriental and Orthodox Church, which has supported Arab nationalism and tended towards an anti-Ottoman, anti-Western and anti-Zionist position. For example, it was a Greek Orthodox Syrian Christian Michel Michel Aflac, who helped found the Bath Party in Syria and the Lebanese Greek Orthodox Christian Antoine Sade, who founded the Syrian National Socialist Party. Dr. Sabra identifies George Koddo, who describes Eastern Christianity as being outside the West, not only internally, but also politically and civilizationally, as being a leading defender of the Arab Christian position. The Eastern Christian position has tended to come to the fore in recent years, holding to the freedom and integrity of the Christian existence in the Middle East. It emphasizes Christianity's distinctiveness in the face of Arab and Islamic identity, and there is a sense of identification and continuity with the West, which means that West and East are not in conflict with one another and that Eastern Christians are more at home in the worldwide Christian family. Sabra points out that the rise of Islamism has challenged the Arab Christian position. He writes, the Islamist fundamentalist resurgence is like a huge wave that has engulfed the results of the old dialogue and set the clock back many years. The two ways of Christian self-identification are of course both present in Syria and represent different lenses through which the Christian communities see themselves, and they are not mutually exclusive. Sabra himself says both outlooks have some truth and therefore remain part of the essential dilemma for Christians in the Muslim context. That dilemma reflects what for Protestant Christians might be termed a cultural disorientation between Western and Eastern Christian identities. For centuries, having adopted a Christian culture, the Western Church has not liked the Eastern Church, had to engage with a different other in its midst. Thus says Roussos, when Western Christians enter into a relationship with an other, here they think of Islam, they do so in an apologetic and defensive rather than a dialogical manner. By contrast, the Eastern Church, he says, has existed for centuries within plurality in ways the Western Church struggles to inculturate. This ability to engage with the other at many levels gives Eastern Christianity a natural capacity to build bridges. Given the fragile situation for Christians throughout the Middle East and in some parts of the region, and an existential threat to Christian communities in some places, there have been considerable efforts to improve ecumenical relations in recent years. However, there remain long-standing theological and ecclesial tensions between the Eastern churches and those of Protestant origin that are difficult to resolve. Without question, the Western churches are bearers of Westernized ecclesial structures and theological traditions, some of which sit uncomfortably with those of Eastern Christianity. The latter's patristic traditions and spirituality of desert with their emphasis on hospitality and engagement with alterity offer rich resources for insolvented dialogue in the Middle Eastern context. So there's an ambiguity in the Protestant position on the one hand, existing apart from Western society and in Eastern culture, whilst on the other, standing at the confluence of Western theology and philosophy. Processing Christianity with its emphasis on Incarnation theology brings huge benefits to the region in the fields of education and social welfare. Eastern Christianity with its Trinitarian theological roots and its affinity to mysticism is gifted in reflecting relationality and its plurality and complexity and depth of spirituality in the midst of struggle. In recent years, the Eastern churches have also made significant strides in the fields of monasticism, theological training and Christian education. The two wings of Christianity and their theological approaches as different as they are in some ways, each bring strengths that can enhance and complement the other. And this tension requires further study for the sake of all Christian communities in the region and for clarity in the interreligious relationships. In the history of Eastern theology and spirituality and in the history of Eastern Christianity's engagement with Islam by significant resources for engaging with the complex interreligious dynamics that currently prevail in the region, and perhaps for strengthening the ecumenical dynamic in the region as well. And so a few conclusions. We briefly, my book covers all of this in much more depth and there's a lot that I haven't covered. This lecture has examined the historical and contemporary encounter between Christianity and Islam in Syria and considered just a few Eastern theological contributions to that discourse and there are more that are covered in the book. There remains a commitment to preservation and improvement of interreligious relationships, but given the level of suffering and destruction experienced within Syria and the fragmentation of society, priority has been given to the humanitarian response and that's natural and the restoration of positive relationships and that's important. Awareness of Eastern Christian identity has been heightened in recent years by events in the region, but Arab identity itself in relation to religion has become contested given the rise of militant Islam. So further rereading of the Christian contribution to the development of Arab and Muslim civilization will help understanding of the intrinsic roots, indigenous roots of Christianity that predate Islam within the region. The Orthodox and Oriental churches, the monastic movement, the spirituality of the desert, particularly the theme of hospitality that emerges from it and patristic theology all offer a key to reconnecting with the spirituality and culture within which early Christianity engaged with Islam and to challenging the exclusivity of the militant Islam that has come to dominate some elements of recent Islamic detergents and the ideology of most of the militant factions in the Syrian conflict. Similarly recovery of the recognition of Arab plurality in both religion and culture and Eastern Christianity's capacity to engage with that plurality offers potential for grappling with the complex post-conflict context in Syria. Such dialogue will be a necessary part both of feeling and establishing stability in Syrian society. Amongst many Syrians, both Christian and Muslim, there is a real fear of the rise of Islamism even if defeated might light dormant in loyal adherence until the next opportunity arises to assert itself. This fear alone is cause of continued immigration and will be a challenge to overcoming barriers of trust between communities. Christian leaders in Syria have often been accused of siding with the Syrian government. Such a view underestimates the influence of the historic role of religious leadership that prevailed in Ottoman society and the social, cultural and religious complexity of the contemporary context in which religious leaders played important for a representative and intermediary role and sometimes acts as a critical voice between their communities and the political leadership of the state. Religious leaders have certainly played an important leadership role during the conflict, most taking a critical stance against violence and radical ideology and being involved in local and national reconciliation initiatives and advocating for the preservation of Syria's secular constitution and the religious mosaic of Syrian society. Despite its complexity, the Christian presence in Syria, though seriously weakened, remains a dynamic, diverse, influential, and vital part of Syrian society. Its engagement at all levels of society and with all communities, notwithstanding its historic and ambiguous relationship to the state, represents a positive foundation for learning from the conflict and helping to restore trust in society, reconcile fractured communities, overcome sectarian fears and prejudice through constructive models of inter-religious dialogue and encourage and nurture frameworks of political dialogue, developing shared responsibility in civic society. Plurality and difference define Syria. This plurality represents both a challenge and a resource of the future. Whatever the future holds, it is hoped that the political space that emerges will be a dialogical one, which the secular and diverse religious mosaic of Syrian society can peacefully and constructively cohabit. It estimates that 50% of Syria's Christians have more left the country since the beginning of the war. How many will return? What impact will this have on Syrian society? It's almost impossible to predict the answer to those questions. But remembering the catastrophic impact of events in neighboring Iraq, which we've had a huge part in helping create, there will be necessary dimensions to research in the future. Likewise, the future role and identity of Islam in Syrian society and its relationship with modern statehood will be crucial to the nature and stability of the society that emerges in the years to come. The importance of plurality of Islam within Syrian society has been under-researched and its significance underestimated. The extent to which contemporary and particularly juridical expressions of Sunni Islam are able to sustain the space in which religious pluralism and freedom of religious practice and expression are maintained will determine future levels of communal trust and the survival of religious plurality in Syria. Therefore, study of and engagement to these issues within Islam are essential to assisting an emerging understanding for the future. Christianity, finally, has an enormous contribution to make to this future discourse. The breadth of and the Christian presence distinguishes Christianity in Syria and the shared culture and experience of the Eastern churches make them a powerful resource for the worldwide church in discerning and developing future models of Christian Muslim engagement. And one question I have is why isn't the worldwide church engaging much more closely with those churches, the Eastern churches, whether Orthodox Eastern churches or Protestant churches, in learning from that? The ecumenical Antiochian paradigm rooted in cultural theological and historical frameworks familiar to both Islam and Christianity and holding an important position within the wider ecclesial and political context have been neglected by the worldwide church for too long. The Antiochian patristic theological and spiritual approaches to inter-religious dynamics given contemporary voice by modern theologians and church leaders, some of whom have become almost like church fathers, have a much more important role to play in inter-religious engagement than has here the two been recognized. Since it embraces the last paragraph, since it embraces cultural diversity and the equal distribution of resources in a way that radical Islam doesn't, Christianity has a potential for bringing a helpful contribution to political, social and religious discourse. Given that the sunny state would likely be a dominant state, could it ever be democratic? Is there a conflict by what one might be called the right to rule and the need for pluralizing space within society? Post-conflict Syria will need to find a way of dealing with this complexity and multiplicity of identity. Christianity and Islam are diverse and long-established traditions in Syria. They're historical precedent of coexistence and their frameworks present for Christian theological thought on religion and politics and the opportunity to discern new frameworks for understanding and engaging mosaic societies as Syria is. Syria has been through one of the most violent conflicts the world has seen in recent decades and the inter-religious dynamic yet has still survived. It is bruised and it is damaged but it has survived. Until now the inter-religious context in Syria has been insufficiently understood and insufficiently studied and my research aims to offer a clear understanding of that dynamic and hopes to offer hope amidst the tragedy and in a reframing of Eastern Christianity's ecclesial theological and spiritual traditions lies the potential for discerning new frameworks for religious and political relationship and engagement where in plurality may be embraced and sustained and a major contribution made on the path towards peace and engagement. Thank you. Thank you very much, Andrew. This was a very comprehensive lecture which also covered other aspects of the, well not just the Christian or religious societies but actually of the complexity of the Middle Eastern setting which as you say many people outside the Middle East are not aware of and I mean I must say I first came across Syrian Christians in Sweden as refugees because they had arrived there a long time before also from Iraq and it dawned on me that there was more than just one layer of refugees amongst the exile community but once I started traveling inside the Syria, Lebanon and the, I never actually made it to Iraq but the, those areas where the Orthodox Christians were active, I could see how integrated they were into the, into the concrete environment which they actually originated from so it struck a very personal chord in your lecture. I would like to open the floor, we have, we should try to keep to the time limit but Zoom has been more tolerant than many people have said so we might be able to continue a little bit further but could I please ask for questions to the presenter. Yes, can we have any update on the position as far as the two kidnapped Archbishop's from Aleppo, is there any update as to their fate. There is no official news that there have been rumours flying around, nothing has been confirmed. The official, the official statement from the churches is that there is nothing, there is no news. That's the latest I've heard, we have heard stories of various things but there's been no confirmation of any of those being verified. So I won't even share the stories because they, they don't like those stories being even shared because they're, they're stories which are unverifiable so, so that the official statement is that there's no, there's no official confirmation of any news. Sorry, that's not, that's not an encouraging response which is, which is tragic. Perhaps I could ask something. Andrew, thank you so much. I'm sorry I was slightly late getting to your, your presentation had to go out. As, as you know I'm currently engaged in a another master's degree on Muslim-Christian relations through Inves, the Institute for Middle East Studies in Beirut, Martin Akkad and just this morning I was reading Philip Long's The Lost Christianity which I'm sure you know, you'll be aware of. I was just picking up on one thing that you mentioned in your presentation, I made a quick note about recovering the relationship that the early Christians had with Muslims but it wasn't always lovely, it wasn't exactly a romance then was it? You know, you may, you may have missed peoples and sometimes better than others but yeah, I just wanted to note that really, it seemed as if you were perhaps presenting that it was always wonderful, you know, back in the first early centuries but thank you for that. You may have missed my early introduction which actually made that point because I think that is an important point and that's it, it's well documented. There's one but I kind of was here somewhere that does relate, it's been quite horrific actually some of the early, the early stuff and that has to be acknowledged and part of the complex history. Yeah, yeah, thank you for that. Some kind of reflection really. Yes, yeah. Any other comments or? Can I make a brief comment? Thank you Andrew, that was really, really good. We tried some of us in foreign office and outside in the early days of the Syrian war to actually try and take a track to build peace through inter-religious dialogue with the Eastern churches, the Muslim areas but unfortunately secular authorities wouldn't back us in doing that which I think is a tragedy. Can I say, ask, I'm not an expert as some of you are but it seems to me that the Western church with this great emphasis on poor line theology is much more confrontational, hierarchical which makes it very difficult to understand that the Eastern churches believe in reconciliation and coexistence. Would you agree? I think that's something that again is very much present in discussions of theology and further deeper discussions and the people I've go into in the book into George Coddor in more detail and Antonado, George Coddor particularly is very good on that. But no, absolutely and I think that there's the whole Western, that's the tension between Western theology and Eastern theology is a very real tension and dynamic and I have an enormous respect for our Middle Eastern Christian friends, who are Protestants, who are doing amazing work but to live with that dynamic and it'd be interesting to hear them talking on that because of course I come as a Western Christian but looking at it as an outsider but having spent a lot of time with representatives of the Eastern churches and having other Western Christian friends but it seems to me an enormous tension and in conversations I've had numerous conversations with Eastern church leaders and not just church leaders but Christians and some of that even those conversations just being an Anglican priest itself puts an element of sometimes distrust, a distance, having to build a certain bridge and understanding and awareness of their theology and history but I think you're absolutely right, we do have a very different theology and as I said I think the stress in the book is that the Eastern theology is one of encounter, is one of plurality, is one of hospitality and it's there in the patristics and some would say nearer to Christ and exactly it's much much older, well yes be careful there but yes one could say that and certainly spending time in the monasteries and I've spent quite a bit of time in Syrian monasteries and in other monasteries in the Middle East it's a very powerful experience because there's a lot of engagement, interreligious engagement in the monasteries is a very significant place of interreligious engagement whereas the interreligious, I'm in danger of being critical here and I don't want to be because there's a lot of good work but the engagement I could be criticised here because I'm speaking as an outsider but the engagement of the Protestant Christians is much more academic and urban. Yes you can raise your hands electronically or you can just raise your voice because we're quite a small circle so that should still work if you want to ask questions if you have suggestions. Could I challenge Andrew slightly? You have presented an impeccable research into the relationships between different ideologies, different churches and all the rest of it. I don't come from a religious background but at least I do from a family but it's not my perception of what is happening today in the Middle East that it's we're looking which you've done very well at symptoms rather than causes. The underlying cause to me is and I don't know whether it started in first world war with the collapse of the Ottoman Empire but it's certainly to me it's about territory, resources and power and the humans on the ground don't count they're not involved and it's now widely distributed that around 2000 the turn of the millennium an agenda was set in the United States to wipe out seven states across the Middle East of which the last two are Syria and Iran. And so we can talk and discuss about the detail of relationships between different churches, different religions and all the rest of it but to what extent is this relevant and I come to the point where which you and I Andrew have exchanged on Facebook that we have a situation where one of the main protagonists to destroy the current government and I do not use the word regime which to me is derogatory. One of the primary supporters of this the United Kingdom and the established churches in the United Kingdom have said nothing about the humans on the ground of any denomination whether it be Christian whether it be Catholic whether it be Muslim or anything else because they actually couldn't give a damn about the people on the ground they're following the party line which is we must have regime change. And so what my challenge to you is Andrew is that you're going into great depth on the symptoms but what about the causes? Thank you. I'm absolutely holy with you and I want to stress actually that the I didn't a lot more in my book goes into quotes for example from patriarch a friend who goes into this much more and I do go much more I talk about my book actually illustrates the story of Malula the story of Aleppo the story of Sadad and the actual realities there and the causes and I'm with you that most Syrians would say this is not religious and that's in the book as well you know that this is this is political the a lot of it is most of it is outside and yes power, geopolitics all that is huge. I think the focus of this work is not the focus of this particular work is not the cause but actually to look at what as a priest and as a student of theology I've been particularly struck over the years by the plurality of the religious presence and how that has been neglected abused misunderstood misrepresented and used by others sometimes by myself obviously and but actually can be a resource for healing and and so this is the religious focus but I entirely agree with the other fact as I say the book doesn't doesn't shy away from the fact that actually this is not saying I in fact I don't say religion is a cause absolutely I'm very very far from that so you know it's totally totally away from that but this is looking at how religion actually can be a part of the healing process and that that we have helped that outsiders have helped drive wedges within that plural religious context um and on the the other one one of the things that my my my involvement in Syria has been has desperately been taking people to Syria to try and see the reality and try and get the churches to have a voice to support the local people and the churches to see the reality and you're quite right has been absolute silence I don't want to know I don't want to kick it because it's a political hot potato so um so I'm with you I accept I accept the challenge although it's not because I've I focused on the religious aspect here and that is the main focus of my book but it's your it's not your point is not excluded good thank you Andrew thank you we have to keep it relatively short yeah rasek rasek i'd love to hear from rasek hello yeah rasek you're on mute rasek yes oh rasek's on mute yes I will see where I can I've quoted rasek in the book and on this presentation what um he's a scholar who has written widely on this I'm just an ordinary person I'm sorry I'm not a scholar thank you Reverend Andrew and hello everybody I'm um and I'm from Aleppo Syria originally and I moved to United State Boston in 2013 after a few months of the kidnapping of the two bishops one of them was my my own bishop and I was his secretary for international relations there was a question about the two bishops yes there are no no news no confirmation of any anything about them since the last eight years now I'm not going to elaborate on this issue but I want to uh reflect something about what Reverend Andrew mentioned throughout his his presentation the issue of healing the broken relationship in the society of Syria the past is different than the present when we were living 30 20 40 years ago today is different than that time the whole issue is about actually if we're talking about most Christian relations and focusing on this issue not rather the crisis in Syria whether it is political or religious we have different opinion of course about it but the whole issue is about accepting the others as they are and and this acceptance cannot be done by force this is my my personal opinion of course it has to be true believing that the other is also the creation of God and the ultimate goal is living together in peace tranquility and coexistence without hatred but the problem nowadays is different after this crisis the society is divided yes we see it now it's a peaceful no war no no shelling no bombing yeah but still the the society is divided after what happened it's not easy to hear that it needs a lot a lot of work of course and the problem for in my understanding also is to be honest with you is the teaching of the Quran in the in the Muslim holy book and in some content the book does not reflect and support the cause of peace and tranquility or living together it rather motivates fanaticism it motivates killing the other it motivates hating the other not accepting the other and this is the motto that the terrorists are taking it to use it against the others not only against the Muslims they are using it against their fellow Muslims who do not believe in such things so this is a big problem of course there is a need to reread the Quran for the Muslims not for us as Christians and to see where they can where they cannot take out any any word from it but because they believe that it's coming from God word by word the key question also is can Muslims live in the east without Christians can they live without plurality do they really truly and appreciate plurality and coexistence these are questions that need to be tackled by Muslims not only by my Christians we I remember in the Middle East Council of Churches when I used to be working there for 22 years we used to launch we used to launch the Christian Muslims dialogue they never invited us they never started such a dialogue we do the dialogue the question is why do we do the dialogue why do we as Christians do the dialogue it's it's a I think it's it is about defending the plurality which we believe in it we believe in it because our religious teaching is about this that's it we believe in that and it's also defending our cause to be to be present and to exist to continue existing because we struggle we struggle with the issue of feeling like we are in strange in our own society we don't feel comfortable sometimes we didn't feel comfortable we feel that somebody is not liking us so that's why we we used to to do that we need we want to live we want to live in an integrated society we don't we want to live in a peaceful society in a in a coexistence society without without problems but as I said the past is different than the present I think I'm I'm now living in America I visited Syria last year and I saw I saw the difference between when I was living for more than 40 years there and after that and I don't want to go further than this thank you so much Reverend Andrew it was a beautiful presentation I'm looking forward to see your book thank you thank you I actually I hear and actually agree with what you're saying and I what I agree with you and I'm and I think Islam has a has a huge challenge to face and one of the reasons I didn't in the book I look at from a Christian perspective because I'm a Christian and I couldn't I've studied into religious relationships but because I'm not a scholar of Islam I didn't feel that I could address that from an Islamic perspective but I agree I agree entirely that that and I worry is Islam going to ask those questions and face this but actually in in my conclusion concluding chapters in the book it's one of the key points that is made that Islam needs a very very big conversation about in itself but how it's how it engages with the modern world and how it engages with plurality in other communities and how it engages with how it understands the Quran in that way. Could I ask before you close for us it's Bernard Kilroy whether you are going to have a another session to follow up this in in the same theme I mean I found it absolutely fascinating and Andrew's book is you know a lecture was masterly and very provocative so I just make a plea that I'd love to carry on in a later session last and I and Jenny and I apologize for not having a cat because obviously a cat is very passport to participation here. Thank you and I say something very briefly I think Dennis has gone hasn't he who who was challenging a little while ago I think I I would like to respond to him if he's here but to all of us in that I I've always seen you Andrew as certainly tackling the cause and not only the symptoms since I have got to know you and was delighted and honoured that you accepted the invitation to come to my previous church in Turkish controlled Cyprus and speak I was delighted that the congregation and wider community had that opportunity to hear you and I know as a fellow priest and I'm sure that other people here do I don't believe I know anybody else will realise the price you've paid for for challenging and for being honest and and reporting and the research the level of depth of research and and the price you've had to pay for that really the cost of that I am aware of that and I think that is prophetic and I think it is you know something sorely needed and if the church can finally find the moral courage to have a voice one of my frustrations as an Anglican priest is that lack of moral courage you know I think it's here this is it so part of big part of it one of my challenges in my own situation here is that my Muslim colleagues both religious and secular have been far more Christ like in their attitude and behaviour than our Orthodox Greek or the Docs friends in the south of Cyprus and that's a huge challenge to me as a priest you know that's just a reflection back you know not all we we mustn't demonise or make character of people because they're Muslim and not all Christians are good we haven't got the goodies and the bad things and the black and white you know absolutely I think that's that's you know thank you that's that's so much where I'm coming from actually and I this is where the world is so full of complexity as you would say there's no black and black and white there's no good and bad the world is very very gray and and and it's true in our faiths as well and that and that's why and that was one of the best I hope to get across in this book is is is that is that the importance of that plurality and how trying to engage with that plurality and all the complexity of it is is so necessary however difficult that is but it's it's very difficult I just noted that phrase when I when I arrived into the meeting of sacred hospitality and how we encounter the divine in one another that really struck me very powerful very very beautiful Wendy is your church St Andrews in that carry it is it is indeed well I've started my own foundation now I work with abused women here so but I was the incumbent there for four years yes well I went a couple of times to your church and I think a few years I can't remember a few years ago but I agree with you about what you say about the particularly the great Orthodox church they're very different from the Eastern churches they're very controlling very hierarchical in lots of different ways but they are different very very racist very bigoted very misogynist and yes that's been well and it's been a huge privilege for me actually over these past years I've been a guest of the Syriac Orthodox the Armenian the Armenian evangelical the Armenian Orthodox the Greek Orthodox and very tiny Protestant church in there and met all the all the different denominations and it's been a huge education as the sheer difference between them and the political complexities between them at least your political complexities between them I mean I think I think also someone was mentioning you know how the Quran can be picked up and used and and I'm now studying it and I'm no fan of the Quran however you know equally there are many who say no the Quran is not saying this the interpretation the hermeneutics of looking at their scripture as Muslims is as of course as as why does it is for us for those of us who are Christians you know and there are many people who call themselves Christians that I dissociate myself from entirely and disagree vehemently over the way they interpret our Christian scripture of the Bible so you know why why the extremism how we can how we can begin to understand why it is like that but if I look at the politics from the US in particular but other western countries that are warmongering and you know we've touched on that already that the two the theology and the political global scope are inextricably entwined I'll just make a comment um Andrew thank you very much for an excellent New York's talk and of course I think what comes out key in your discussion is of course there are greater political frameworks but I think a very powerful tool to counteract those frameworks is as you have shown very clearly is the on-ground cooperation and continuing communication between communities there will always be differences and tensions but that on-ground communication is is a very key factor and I think and as you know of course I traveled with you in 2016 and what struck one was the communication that could still be maintained in a country that had experienced such devastating effects and that's a very precious commodity and a very powerful tool against agendas that are larger than all of us so I think I think that's something that should never be forgotten is that people do have a power when we work with each other there is a tremendous power for for for change or for stability or whatever and I think that came out very clearly in your talk and of course on different levels theologians but that grassroots acceptance of each other is key for the stability of the purity of communities not just in Syria but also in Iraq and um that that's something you need to think about yes well um I don't want to force you into a certain direction but we are approaching the rest of the day for those of you who live in the you know any area close to GMT but yes one afterthought that I had actually one area where I also have met many Syrian refugees is Cairo and they are they are working with living with the cops not just the cops one of the most active centers is actually the the Presbyterian former Anglican church in Zemalik right in the center that runs a defacto refugee center and it's also a guest house so you can stay there as well and stay there almost every year and it's a place where you can speak to people who I mean I spoke to um missionaries amongst um amongst Daesh and you should not believe that this is true but they're actually talking to Daesh soldiers who uh who were terrified to leave they were they hated what they were doing but they they knew that they would be killed immediately if they if they left and they actually managed to get if not conversions but at least people who left Daesh who were spoken to and and these these are actually Syrian Christians they are they they for their own safety they they stay outside Syria for most of the time but they go in missions so there is a lot going on at the moment which is um and as Denny's pointed out which is not just religious but it's actually political so it's um you face a really complex situation to understand this if you go if you remove yourself from the the western setting from the the the churches that are backed by um by American or European uh hierarchies then going to Egypt has many advantages because you see how a church which is a minority church itself has learned to live with um majorities and then also with the authorities and and this is something where we can draw many useful lessons from and yes shall we have one last question from to our speaker who who would like to have the the final say the final question to Andrew. May I um my name is Richard Downer I'm a Melchite Greek Catholic Deacon and my bishop lives in in Damascus. I've been to Damascus and I've been to Lebanon and I've been to Egypt and my wife there's a little baby in 1945 went to Egypt and we've been going ever since so we have lots of contacts with the cops obviously with the Melchites with Syrian people who uh you know who who have left Syria because of the problems etc and I've got a lot of respect for them but one question that goes from through my mind because I used to be a member of the charity finance tractors group is that for example the influence of organizations like A to the church in need, Caritas etc in helping to reconstruct their there are others uh what would you say about that? It's just it's I wish there were more I mean I think that it's quite right I mean A to the church in need and Caritas etc they are just a few and they're Catholic actually that are that are there in Syria doing great work and then you've got all the Christian I have to say all the churches in Syria are doing phenomenal extraordinary amount of work on the ground um and and the the I have to say that the the sanctions are criminal are crucifying the country 90% of the population are now with you to be on the poverty line the queuing for bread in Damascus daily and everything is beyond people's means and people are dying because of sanctions it's the civilians who suffer and our policies on that are absolutely criminal and it's purely to fulfill our political goal of regime change that's nothing more we don't care about millions of people but charities like like A to the church in need and Caritas and so forth thank goodness they're there and they have the courage to go in and actually serve because the vast majority of charities are actually exclusively in Idlib or northeast Syria exclusively with the rebel groups they're very few operating there are some operating in Syria but thank goodness they are and and the churches I have to stress as well are serving all people so they're not just serving their own they're serving their communities who are majority Muslim and so thank goodness they're doing and I've seen the results of that and it is it is quite remarkable and and shame on shame on the western churches for their silence and inaction thank you thank you thank those who do yeah shukra nabuna but with these words which were of course very serious words for a serious situation for times which are not peaceful in the least I would like to thank our speaker for a fascinating two hours actually of of interaction with us and thank you on behalf of the center most of you know yes we will be in touch again with you very soon with another two speakers I just need to get them to agree on a date and then it'll be at the same time again on a Wednesday so do look out for the for the send out so thank you very much to all of you for taking the time thank you very much Andrew for for giving this talk thank you very much everybody thank you god bless you bye bye thank you bye bye