 My name is Nicholas Susman and this is Latin American Directions, a new show where we are trying to become familiar and know a bit more about what goes on our side of the continent. And to start today, we're having that starring guest. We have Moises Monti and Mobileon, who's going to tell us a bit about visas, migration, Venezuela, and other issues related to this. Moises is a lawyer, advising individuals, companies, and states on matters of international law, human rights, and other international areas, a plot of solutions legales. He teaches international law and law on conflicts at Universidad de Uenoamericana in Mexico City and Universidad Panamericana in Guadalajara, Mexico. He earned his JD from Universidad Central de Venezuela and his LM in International Law from the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University. Moises, welcome. It is a pleasure to have you as our first guest. Thank you so much. Nicholas, thank you for having me. Such a privilege and an honor to be your maiden guest on this year's show. I'm just so happy to be here again. Thank you for the invite. Great. So let's get right into our topic. So tell us a bit about Venezuela right now. You live in Mexico City, but you are from Venezuela originally. So if you could just provide the audience with a brief overview of where Venezuela is, where it comes from. And I know it's a hard question for a short show, but I know you'll do your best. Okay, I'll try and be as specific as possible and as quick as possible. So well, as you know, Venezuela is a South American country. It's actually neighboring Colombia. While for most of the 20th century, it showed science, sorry. You know, becoming a prosperous and stable democracy with its shortcomings and false whatnot. So it ultimately took a turn towards authoritarianism with the elections. In 1998, in which Hugo Chavez, as we all know, resulted the vector and he then proceeded to undermine the institutions, the economy and, you know, the country in general. Former president Chavez died in 2013 officially. And then his successor and appointee Nicholas Maduro, who, who up until the time was his foreign minister took up the reins and continued the so called Chavista revolution. So the thing about Venezuela is that it has been in a steady decline ever since Chavez took power. Of course, I don't mean to say that the country was perfect but before that by no means. Well, you know, we had some democracy, some economic prosperity. Yes, there were issues of inequality and, you know, wealth distribution which needed to be tended to. Okay, but being mostly an oil exporting country. Well, the country took the opportunity to ride the wave. And that was a huge wealth amassed. Thanks to the oil industry. So it is that landscape that welcomes Chavez into power. And he then proceeds to well, some say to extend it or to adapt the Cuban model in Venezuela. I don't think I need to go too much into detail Chavez is a fairly popular figure in modern politics or was because he's now dead. The successor Nicholas Maduro takes up the reins. The Venezuela inherited by Maduro is a Venezuela that no longer is propped up by the, you know, historically record high oil prices. It is also a country which has begun to disintegrate politically and socially, mostly as a consequence of Chavez policies. Okay, and then and then again, as far as Latin American authoritarian leaders go, Maduro lacks the charisma or the political savvy that Chavez had back in his day. So then, you know, the country starts spiraling down and and of course I could talk for days about this, but to start addressing the matter at hand. This starts to cause a huge uptick in the numbers of Venezuelans leaving the country. Okay, many experts on on the Venezuelan migration, a migratory phenomenon have actually pointed out that you know that there seems to be some kind of link between social economic status and migration in terms of waves of migrations. First, the most affluent who begun leaving the country, normally, you know, top the higher classes well educated, they migrate and they bring wealth to those countries, they go to. But as the country begins to deteriorate 2013 up to up until present, you know, migration has ceased to discriminate between classes. Now, either I mean whether you can or you can't afford to you leave the country right now that I mean we don't have exact numbers, but it is estimated that around 6 million Venezuelans have fled the country. Okay, we're talking a country that has a population of 30 million people. So this is not a small number in proportion terms. Most of them fleeing systematic and gross violations of human rights poverty. There is also some talk that that you know all of this reasons that have forced Venezuelans to flee the country are due to the US and Europe levied sanctions against the ruling elite in Venezuela. And I think this is what, you know, wishful thinking on the part of those people trying to to prop up the government in that, you know, for example, and I would like to start, you know, addressing the root causes for for this huge migration process. And it was last year, the UN fact finding mission delivered its report on Venezuela, and found systematic and great breaches of human rights we're talking here. Hundreds of political prisoners we're talking tortures as a, you know, a mainstream, a mainstay sorry when you're detained. Absolute lack of due process. And I'm only speaking from the, you know, the civil and political rights side, there's no, no freedom of expression, there's active censorship and self censorship in new outlets, and the quality of life overall on the civil and political dimension has crashed dramatically. On the social and economic side, it is a society that just now this, I think it was this last trimester came out of a hyperinflationary process that has taken the best part of several years. Now, so the economy, if any, is in shambles. People flee the country. And this, this is what the whole migrant picture about migration starts to come together. Why most of this migrants. They normally try to go to Columbia, which is actually the country that has received the most Venezuelan migrants, Brazil has also been another welcoming option. Okay, so the natural tendency is to go to South American Central American countries. Those who can afford it and you and right now this is where where the shift starts, even those who can't afford it are trying to enter the United States. And this is actually what what you know I was hoping we could discuss here. You know, the United States ever since the Trump administration, and there seems to be some some carry over of the policy vis-à-vis migration in the Biden administration. You know, the headline is, we don't want anyone to come into our country illegally, and that's okay. And I should start by saying that yes, every country has the right to regulate migration. Every country has the right to decide who gets to come in and who doesn't. Okay. Typically here in the Western hemisphere, you know the United States, Mexico, Central South America. There are varying degrees of policies concerning migration, especially Venezuelan migration week, which has now become a very distinct phenomenon. In the case of Colombia, for example, there have been different policies adopted by successive administrations, some more welcoming than other but in general, in general, okay, or in comparison to the policies of other countries. Colombia has been very welcoming so has Brazil. Okay, but then you see things like Peru, like Chile. I'm trying to think of other, well, the Dutch and Teals, which are unwelcoming might be a severe understatement. Okay, last year we had this little number in Chile, where you know migrants were concentrating in the town called Iquiquén, in the northern part of the country, and they had set up basically a shanty town in a very prominent Plaza Iquiquén, and after several demonstrations of basically anti-migrant confession by the local inhabitants, they proceeded to burn the little possessions left to these migrants. Okay, so it's a bleak picture in general. I would like, and if that's okay with you, to focus on a recent decision by the Mexican government to impose entry visas for Venezuelans trying to enter Mexico. Right, right, so before that we say, I just wanted to ask you a short question. We've had several waves of migration, right, and I think all the visa process, and as I said, we're into the topic at hand. Latin Americans are not unfamiliar to the visa processes, right, and as far as I remember, every Latin American has a story of collecting papers and documents asking for visas and so on, but it's not the same people with more resources to do the visa process and people with less resources and so on, and I think that fits a lot with the waves of migration, and I would also like to discuss migration before Trump. We know that Trump was a very particular period of the US relating to migration and visa processes, but it's a process that goes before. We could go a bit to the visa situation and the visa waves and how the region in the US has reacted to these different waves of migrants and differentiate a bit on the treatment that these migrants have received. Maybe we could provide a bit more of context and then we can move into the most recent decision by Mexico that I think is very interesting. Because as a consequence of all this process, right? Right. So, Nicolas, as you're well aware, migration in terms of Latin America, and I think up to some extent also the United States, migration is normally treated as a political issue, not a humanitarian one. Of course, and this is why I wanted to begin, you know, making a few remarks about the political situation in Venezuela, ever since 1998. Okay, Chavez was identified from the, basically from the get go as an ideological threat, if you will, by the United States and, you know, by the right leaning countries in the region. Okay, so some part, and I think currently there's a lot of them. Okay, because then the, for example, the United States attitude towards Venezuelan migration, you can clearly see how it comes from political motivations. And while the United States has a preferential, I forget the name just now, but it has a preferential visa treatment or entry treatment for Venezuelans because they understand that most of these Venezuelans are fleeing from a system in which human rights are routinely systematically and massively violated. Okay, so basically there's a bit more leniency when it comes to Venezuelan migrants at least directly. Okay, but then again, you know the history of Venezuela, and especially since we begin to see this exponential growth in Venezuelan migrants is always informed by politics. As you remember, a few years ago there was the Lima group, which was actually the one that let's call it a coalition of countries, which openly opposed Maduro. Okay, the current president of Venezuela actually referred the situation in Venezuela to the International Criminal Court and started signaling. Okay, so some let's call them differentiated migration policies when it came to Venezuela. Back in the day Chile, Chile had, I think it was called something like the democratic responsibility visa. Okay, which would be afforded only to Venezuelans, but then you can you can always see the political strings behind that. Okay, it's not a map or maybe it because you know one is not one does not exclude the other necessarily. Okay, the Chilean authorities back in the day I think it was President Piñera understood that the exodus of Venezuelans was a direct consequence of you know the catastrophic situation, both economically and in terms of several liberties in Venezuela and facilitated access to Venezuelans. But now as we see the region shifting ideologically, some countries to the left, some countries to the right, some countries to their, well, you know, this, this crazy Latin American ideological experiments. And we begin, we, sorry, we begin, I'm so sorry for that, to see migratory policies shuffling. For example, in the case of the United States. We, we know that the Trump administration was very, very hardliner against the Maduro regime. We know that before that, you know the Obama administration apparently was more on the boat of appeasement. Okay, maybe we can talk them into not being such adamant violators of human rights and you know quality of life standards. Okay, and I think that we see those positions reflected in the in the migration in the migration policy, visa be Venezuelans specifically so here is not my, my idea and I think that this brings true for the United States and for all of the region. Okay, migration and visa decisions are informed by political preference preferences, sorry, of the government that is currently sitting. Now, for example, we've seen Peru reestablishing diplomatic relations and political relations with the Maduro regime. So I think it would not be surprising to see some, some more strict. Yeah, a harder migratory policy when it comes to Venezuela, especially when we know that Venezuelans, for example, in Peru are being used as scapegoats by the central government, you know, insecurity, criminality, crime rates, what not. So it's easy to blame the migrant, which has of course produced an optic in a xenophobic discourse anti migration discourse, we see a little bit of this also in Colombia with the with the mayor Bogota. Okay, who has also been using Venezuelan migrants as scapegoats and this kind of rhetoric is sadly prevalent and you know in an upward trend throughout the region. So, yeah, that, and that that's kind of my main idea here. Okay, migration, sadly in the Americas is a function of policy of policy and politics. Okay, one one being the practical application of the other. So, I mean, I don't know what to expect from the Biden administration concerning specifically Venezuelans right now but we do observe that. Obviously the USS, and I'm going to be extremely colloquial here, but they seem to be pretty fed up with Central and South American immigration and then they they have. I would like to think cautiously asked Mexican authorities to do the dirty laundry for them. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's a perfect set way for, for next issue right. So we have Venezuelans try to get out of the country anyway possible they get to Colombia and then they cannot stay there because maybe the conditions are not given for them to make a living there and they start like walking up the content is basically right. So we're going to see how, not only for Venezuelans but also for for for Central Americans and so on a series of obstacles are being created throughout the path basically the most reason one being Mexico at the beginning of this 2022 right. It's strange for for a president that seems to be very prone to the social very prone to inequality, and, and so on so how could we explain in that politics and policy lens that you were mentioning this countries actually making the decisions for the US, which possibly could be a change in policy from the Trump to the Biden administration but nonetheless you can you can feel certain reluctance if we can call it like that to the migration to the migration issue right. So yeah, I just want some thoughts on your part. You know, I'm, that's actually something I've been thinking a lot about lately and you know working a little bit on that. There's a very strong contradiction Mexico is historically famous worldwide and especially in the region for a very, very hard warming tradition, you know, being a reception country. For example, the law governing the status of refugees here and asylum seekers is, and I dare say, it's one of the most advanced and more protected in the region, and I dare say, even globally. Okay, Mexico, sorry, Mexico, well, same thing. Mexico has a very strong tradition of offering safe shelter to people who flee their countries. Okay, even they even use what we call the expand the expanded concept of refugee that not only encompasses people who are fleeing individual persecution, which we would, we would assimilate to political persecution. Okay, so so that would be asylum in, you know, basic US parlance, but they actually incorporate what we call the Cartagena concept of refugees. Which encompasses people who flee, you know, grave systematic and nationwide collapses, you know, basic civil liberties basic human rights, and that Mexico grants or recognizes the status of refugees for those people. So on the one hand, make we have a very welcoming country. Okay, whose laws and policies reflect a very healthy feeling towards migration. At the same time, we had this was last week, Mexico. And here's the starting point. Historically, there is a visa exemption agreement between Mexico and Venezuela. Venezuelans have never required visas to enter Mexico nor Mexicans need visas to enter Venezuela. Okay, I don't I am, I will confess, I don't know the exact date when this agreement started but you know it has been going on since forever. So it is now very surprising, because, you know, then we keep track of the refugee flows of Venezuelans, especially here in Mexico. And there, while there has been a significant increase proportionally in terms of, you know, the total numbers of refugee seekers and asylum seekers that Mexico is receiving on a yearly basis. The trend is not comparable to, for example, other countries in South America, Mexico is not receiving that many more Venezuelan migrants seeking refuge seeking asylum here in Mexico. I mean, there is of course growth in the numbers, but it is not as significant as say Colombia, Brazil, Chile, Peru, Bolivia, or even Argentina. So it is very surprising because when when we analyze the decision by the Mexican government to require visas, effectively rescinding this agreement with Venezuela to reciprocate, to not request visas of each other. And we are, we, and then they quote us one of the motivations of this decision, the fact that, you know, there's a human trafficking that the in Spanish this, there's a colloquial term for that. It's called coyoteo. So basically, people go to the coyotes, who are human smugglers, or people smugglers rather. They're deciding, you know, concerns on human trafficking, violence, irregular migration to require visas of Venezuelan. Now, if you connect this to what I just told you, there has not been a significant increase in Venezuelans coming to Mexico requesting asylum requesting refuge here. And there has been an uptake in the number of Venezuelans that are using Mexico as kind of a bridge to get to the United States, more often than not illegally. Okay, and as we see dividing administration is outsourcing its migration policies for Mexico to enact. You know, it is easier to get into Mexico, you do not require visa, and then you just cross their border as you know any other illegal immigrants. Well, again, I cannot think of any reason why Mexico what would on its own and act this type of policy, except to serve the express desire of the US authorities to, you know, well migration. That's possible. So, why not outsourcing it. Right. And we says, just gambling a bit with this considerations to to inspire this measure. How do you think this measure would actually help to solve those issues or intensify them through through this fallacy. But Nicholas, let me be blunt with you, trying to create obstacles to migration. Historically, I mean there's statistic endless amounts of statistics behind this visas don't work to the term migration. Okay, what they do is they create more they they create more far more dangerous environments, because people are still going to try and cross into United States. The only difference that this visa requirements are going to mean is that people are going to be crossing from the southern frontier of Mexico illegally, and then the northern frontier of Mexico, again, illegally. So you're going to expose them to more human trafficking to more risks to more. I mean, any kind of criminality that we can associate with migration processes. You're subjecting these people willingly and voluntarily to this visas do not deter people who are fleeing systematic and massive collapses in their respect to their human rights in their host countries, they don't work. They're legal countries as I said in the beginning countries can they have they have the power to regulate who comes in who comes out. And they're effectiveness or efficiency visas are probably the worst measure that available to countries to try and, you know, cater to the situation to the situations of massive flows of migrants. And just last question in the last minutes we have as a Venezuelan as a lawyer as a professor of international law, what's the message you would like to send to the region and to policy makers, both in Latin America and the US if you could have a chat to them. Absolutely. I would start by reminding that, yes, and as I have here in the brief time we've had together, every country has the right to regulate their borders and their migration policy. But migration, and especially Venezuelan migration is not a matter of, you know, freely wanting to go and live the American dream in the United States, it's about trying to survive. It's about fleeing one of the worst dictatorships in the region. So humanitarian considerations should at least inform policymaking and decision making in this context, let us not forget that human the right to to request and receive both asylum and refuge is a human right. It is enshrined in the American Convention on Human Rights. It is implicitly stated in international covenant on civil and political rights. So states have a duty to at the very least hear the petition to inform people crossing international borders that they have a right to request or to ask for international protection. So I would, if I had, you know, a couple minutes with policy makers, I would just try and remind them of that. It is not only a moral duty but also a legal duty. Thank you very much, Moises, and let's hope that policy makers start becoming humanitarian makers and humanitarian policy makers. This was Latin American directions with Moises Montiel Mogollon. Moises, thank you so much, and we'll see each other in two weeks for more discussions on the region. Thank you so much. Thank you very much, Nicolas.