 This is Think Tech Hawaii. Community Matters here. Aloha and thank you for joining us for another edition of Living Legend Lawyers on Think Tech Hawaii. This program is part of a series sponsored by the Hawaii State Bar Association that seeks to recognize and chronicle Hawaii attorneys who have made significant contributions to our profession and the community. I'm Craig Wagner, an attorney with a law firm of Bays, Lung, Rose, and Homer, and a former president of the Hawaii State Bar Association. And I have the pleasure of serving as host of today's program, which is entitled, Winning It All, Balancing a Career in Law in the Pursuit of Happiness. As someone embedded deep in this profession, I will attest to the fact that the practice of law can be all-consuming. Like many professions, it involves a significant investment of time, energy, and concentration, often to the detriment of almost every other aspect of your life. Lawyers are not really known for being kind, compassionate, caring, uplifting, honorable. Those are words that seem reserved these days to describe doctors and teachers. Many of those who are successful in law have achieved that success by sacrificing many of the other aspects of their relationships and their lives. Perhaps that's why the attorney that we have the pleasure of being today is so impressive. In over 50 years of practice in Hawaii, he's built an enormously successful law firm, and labor-employment law practice is measured by almost any yardstick. And along the way, he's managed to find a balance in life that has allowed him to enjoy family, friends, and personal pursuits that have brought both enjoyment and meaningful fulfillment. Everyone who's met this guy will tell you he's a uniquely genuine and caring person, and the epitome of honor and integrity. How do you spend almost half a century in the litigation trenches in this profession and come out with a reputation like that? More importantly, how do you do that and come out happy and fulfilled? The answers are probably going to seem simple, but they reveal some real truths that are easily forgotten and hold the key to a life worth living. Our guest today is a living legend lawyer, Robert Katz, of Torquilts and Katz, I'm honored to be here today, Craig. Well, it's great to have you, and what I'm interested to hear about is, first of all, how did you get into law in the first place, and how did that take you from the mainland all the way over here to Hawaii? Well, my father was a lawyer, and he was also my hero growing up. And so I always felt that if I could be half the person that he was, I'd be satisfied with my life. So from the, oh, I'd say, great school days on, I always said I wanted to be a lawyer just like my dad. Now, was your father supportive of that? Did he like that, or was he saying, no, do anything else, don't be a lawyer? No, actually, my father really believed that people should be allowed to follow their passions. I think he recognized that that was something I legitimately wanted to be, and he encouraged it and supported it. He paid for law school. Okay, was he in private practice as well? He was. He was in a small personal injury law firm in Manhattan, New York City. And he, as I said, was just a, I felt a terrific role model. So obviously that was the encouragement to all the trail he had blazed. So that took you to look at law as a profession and to go into it. So you started going, where did you go to school? Well, coming out of high school, I was living in New Jersey. At that time Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey, offered automatic admission to any citizen of the state. Oh, okay. So it was a no-brainer. I went to Rutgers for undergraduate. Okay. And then when I graduated at Rutgers, my sister, who was five years older than me, I just graduated from the University of Michigan and spoke so highly of it. I said, okay, I'll look at Michigan. They accepted me and that started my law school career. Okay. Somewhere in there, in this law school experience, and we're talking mid-late-60s, you had an opportunity to come check out Hawaii. How did that work out? Well, that was kind of interesting. My senior year, I was taking a seminar class at the law school. And I had gotten married the year before that. We didn't have any money, so we were living in student housing. And student housing at Central Michigan University, which is in the next town over from the University of Michigan, was cheaper than the housing, married housing at the University of Michigan. So my wife and I went to the cheaper housing, but we only had one car. We used to alternate using cars. So on this particular day, I was at the seminar at the law school. My wife had the car. She drove over to meet me. She got there early and she was waiting for me. And the class I was in was right next to the placement office. And she was looking at the bulletin board where all the law firms were advertising, right? And she saw this card from this law firm in Honolulu. It was February. It was about five feet of snow outside. She said, hey, man, let's reach out to them. And I did. And they flew us out to Hawaii. And it was love at first sight. And by the time we got back on the plane to go back to Michigan, I had already told them that I would accept the position with them. Okay. And I love this part. What was the name of the firm? At that time, it was Moore, Torkelson, Silverman, and Schultz. Which is today? Torkelson, Katz, Heatherington, Harris, and Clark. Which is your law firm? Yeah. It's been the same firm for over 50 years. People have come and gone, but it's been the same place. So you came over. And can we pull up picture number one? I think we have a picture of you earlier on left to say in your career here. Right. This is you in the practice of law early on? Yes, it is. And so you could see the price I've paid for the practice of law. Was this the bar journal picture? Oh, no, this is an earlier one. Oh, okay. Actually, when I came in 1967, this was before they even had the multi-state bar exam. In fact, the senior partner of the firm at the time, Ray Torkelson, when he took the bar in Hawaii, they did not have an exam. You were peered before the Justice of the Supreme Court of Hawaii, and they orally questioned you. I was going to ask you. Don't tell me it was an oral exam. It was an oral exam. And the best part of it is when it was over, you all went to the local bar and a few drinks and went home. You passed. Is that right? So a lot of changes over the last 50 years. That's okay. Change is good. When you started into practice, was the firm doing the same kind of employment and labor law? Yes, it was primarily an employment and labor law. The three named partners, Ward, Torkelson, and Silverman, were exclusively labor and employment law. Rick Schultz was a corporate lawyer, a real estate lawyer. In fact, he worked with Bruce Stark, a well-known developer. Developed Bruce's first high-rise condominium in Honolulu. Oh, is that right? And that was our brief sojourn into real estate. Real estate development in Honolulu. It was primarily employment and labor law. And that was the practice I was devoted to. And you had a number of, say, firsts here. I mean, you were the first attorney from Hawaii elected to the College of Labor and Employment Law, some things like that. How did those come about? Well, that particular organization is an honorary organization. What you do is you have to be sponsored by other employment and labor lawyers around the country. And so over the years, I had done a lot of work with the American Bar Association. And I actually co-chaired a couple of their committees and got to know a whole bunch of attorneys on the mainland. And they all said, you should be in this honorary society. And so it was great. I applied, they sponsored me. We had a black-tied dinner in New York City. At the end of the dinner, my wife and I, a bunch of friends, walked across the Brooklyn Bridge. Oh, is that right? And that was my introduction to the College of Labor law. Okay. And you were sort of another sort of a homecoming also if you were there in... It was. I still had some family living there at the time, so it was kind of nice to be back in New York City. But it's always great to be back in Hawaii. How has the practice of law, particularly in the labor employment, changed over the time? You came here and you've seen some evolutions, things that have happened. Well, I would say two big changes. One is, of course, the breadth of the practice. When I came in 67, the primary legal environment that you worked in was a single federal law known as the National Labor Relations Act and the federal wage and hour law. Those are the two laws that you needed to know. And since then, there's just been an explosion of regulation in the employment area. So you've got ERISA, which governs all your retirement programs, employee benefit plans. You've got Civil Rights Act. You've got age and discrimination, Americans with disabilities. You've got Office of Federal Contract Compliance programs. The breadth just exploded, so you have to know a whole lot more than I did when I first started. And the second major development is just the size of the bar that practices this field, both on the employee and the employer side. Yeah, and we talked about that some before in terms of just both the cohesiveness of the bar and knowing everybody and such and also sort of the back side of that coin, if you will, which is that you have to deal with these same people all the time. And as the bar gets larger, that dynamic changes. It does. And I say that having to deal with the same people all the time is sort of a self-imposed discipline that forces you to be cordial, courteous to everybody and to develop the habit of working together, even with the opposition. So in those days, if you needed more time, you just picked up the phone. Everyone always agreed. And when you got in front of a decision-maker, whether it was a court or an administrative agency, there wasn't shouting and name-calling or anything of that nature. It was very cordial and congenial. In a way, I think law should be practiced. Yeah. And by most attorneys in this state, I think it is. I think that's the case. I want that to be the case. And at times, I feel like that as the bar has gotten larger, that's been one of the consequential side damages that comes from an increase in size. And not knowing everybody and not necessarily having to deal with people again on a regular basis the way you used to. Yeah. And I think especially in the employment and labor field, it was rare that a dispute would wind up having to be resolved by a judge or an arbitrator. More than not, you'd call the attorney on the other side, chat about it while helping the parties work it out and move forward because it's all about human relationships. Okay. I think that's a central theme of a lot of the things that you and I have talked about at other times on runs and other things. In fact, if I can pull up a photo number two, because we have a photo here, you're talking about relationships, your family. Yes. I don't know when this photo was taken, but obviously you all look very happy there. But tell me a little bit about the challenges of running a firm, building this practice, coming out here and then also building a family. Well, it is a challenge, just as you say, Craig. And the solution really requires discipline. I was very fortunate. My wife was not only very understanding, but very wise. And early on when we started raising a family, first thing she said to me is, you will be home every night for dinner. And I did. I came home every night for dinner. And that was the gel that held our family together. We're going to follow up on that. You're watching Living Legend Lawyers on Think Tech Hawaii. We'll be right back with Bob Katz. This is Think Tech Hawaii, raising public awareness. You can be the best. You can be the king. Come play. And now your chest. You can be good. You can talk to God. Go banging on his door. My name is Mark Shklav. I am the host of Think Tech Hawaii's Law Across the Sea. Law Across the Sea is on Think Tech Hawaii every other Monday at 11 a.m. Please join me where my guests talk about law topics and ideas and music and Hawaii Ana all across the sea from Hawaii and back again. Aloha. All right. We're back on Think Tech Hawaii. This is Craig Waggill. I'm here living legend lawyers. We're talking with Bob Katz. Bob, you were telling me when we left about your family, the mandate from your wife to be home for dinner and how you wisely followed that mandate. There's more to that. Well, absolutely. Being fortunate enough to have a partner in life that supports what you're doing is really important in helping get through that half-century of practice. So in addition to having me home at dinner time all the time every night, my wife Marcy would from time to time accompany me when I go off on a business trip. Typically, if we're going to a neighbor island to do a court case or an arbitration. And I remember particularly one time it was my first labor arbitration for the dean of Honolulu Labor Arbitrators, an attorney named Ted Tsukiyama. You may have heard of him. Anyway, he had a reputation for running a really tight arbitration. And this arbitration hearing was going to be held up in Camuela on the big island. And so Marcy said, you know, how about if I go along with you and then when the arbitration is all over, we'll spend some time together on the big island. So we flew up there on a Friday and the arbitration was going to start the next day Saturday at noon. And Saturday I woke up, started to get ready for the arbitration and discovered I hadn't packed a dress shirt. I was going to wear a tie and jacket and I didn't have a white shirt. So you can imagine the challenge of finding a store open in Camuela on a Saturday when you can buy a dress shirt. So we ran around town. Marcy finally found one. It was in a second hand consignment shop and it was all beat up. Bless my wife. She got a hold of an ironing board and ironed it. Got me dressed, got me to the arbitration just in the nick of time. So partnership is an important part of succeeding with the practice of law today because as you say, all the stress that just built into the job. And in addition to doing that, you volunteered your time with a lot of different organizations. And I know you're involved with the blood bank of Hawaii. If you have picture number three, I think how long have you been with that organization? I've been with the blood bank of Hawaii for I believe now over 30 years, maybe even longer than that. And this was the groundbreaking for the facility on Yonge Street? Yes. Yes. When we built another collection site in East Honolulu, we had a groundbreaking ceremony. I was part of that ceremony. But I was very blessed to be able to donate blood and to serve the blood bank of Hawaii, which is really a unique institution in Hawaii because we are an island state. We are so vulnerable, as Hurricane Lane just recently reminded us, right? Yes. We need to make sure we have sufficient blood to take care of any emergency. So I was really honored to serve that organization and still do. And I do believe if you're a lawyer, you need to give back to community here in Hawaii. And I've been blessed to serve on a variety of different organizations over the years. I was on the board of the Institute of Human Services. I also serve on the Hawaii Opera Theater, the Honolulu Museum of Art. And I'm sure there are others that I can't remember now. But I think that's an important part of balancing your life as a lawyer. Don't just sit in the law office desk. Get out in the community. Do your share. Yeah. And you've certainly been doing that. And in addition to that, you do things, and I'll say for yourself, but it's for your health, you're an avid runner. Oh, yes. And I actually want to look at picture number five, because I would like to say this is a unique thing for you, but it's not like you ran one marathon. You ran countless marathons and other runs and such. What is this one? This is the Honolulu Marathon back, I think in early 1990s when I ran that marathon. And the good thing about running for me is, first of all, it's inexpensive. Yes. You can wear a pair of sneakers and go out. And it's not dependent on anybody else. And it requires a lot of self-discipline, because a lot of times you're running by yourself and you've got to force yourself to get up and go. But it's also brought me a lot of wonderful friendships, people I run with, including yourself, have just become part of our extended family. I really believe the third leg of that stool besides family, community, the third leg of the stool is you have to have some hobby, some interest that you can pursue on your own that helps round you out, stabilizes you, and allows you to deal with the stress that comes from practicing. And I think for you part of that is just embarrassing the rest of us running, because usually we see you from behind and you're way ahead of us. You're an incredibly accomplished runner, but very fast. And still, at this point in time, even with an age difference here, I'm fighting to just keep up and run alongside you, but I sure love it. I will share that one of your tricks that I've learned and tried to use with others at times is to ask very open-ended questions while we're running. Exactly. Get the other people talking, right? But that's definitely a part of your life balance that you need to have. That life balance, and I want to touch on this because as I had opened up with it, one of the things that I think is remarkable is that anybody... We mentioned your name to anybody, any attorney in town, and they'll say wonderful things about you, Bob, and I love that about that, and there's a part of me that wants to emulate that as best I can. What have you done to make that happen? Well, I think it's part of my nature, also because I have and always have had a deep respect for anybody who works, who labors on behalf of other people. Regardless of the type of work they do, whether you're collecting refuge, whether you're operating as a doctor, whether you're a schoolteacher, whatever work you do deserves the respect of other people. And I've always carried that with me, so even when I'm opposing other counsel, I respect them because they're working and they're doing what they need to do for their client, and you've got to respect that. You can disagree with them, but I think also the part of the fact that we are Hawaii and we're on an island, and we see each other over and over again. Certainly more so when I started out and we had a much smaller bar, but even today, you're always going to see that other person again someday and you want them to treat you the way you want to be treated, so you should treat them that way. That's a message, I think, that fits well in response to what a lot of attorneys that are coming into the profession, when I talk to the young kids that are coming out of law school to start in and looking at law and deciding, is this what I want to do? What's your message to them? I think it's a wonderful career and a wonderful profession. You get to learn a little bit about a lot of things, but most importantly, you get to work with people. People who are struggling, people who are being challenged and need help, and sometimes you're the lifeline. You're what gets them through the challenges they're facing and what can be more rewarding than that feeling? I would always encourage young people who have an interest in a people-oriented profession do it, do the law, because it'll expose you, give you the opportunity to work with people all the time. So that's my message to young people. Go for it. Law is a great career. If I had to do it all over again, I would do it exactly the same. Is that right? Yes. Well, I have no choice. I faint the sight of blood. Well, and I think Marcy would make you do it. Medicine wasn't an option. Are kids going into law? No, my children have not gone into law, although they have managed to master the art across examination. Is that right? As I'm sure you've experienced sometimes with your children, they're great at that. So they are fulfilling their goals and their passions, which lie more in high tech and software and those issues. Yeah. Well, I'm glad we got a chance to spend a little bit of time talking. I have so many other questions, but I'll save them for our next run. Okay, it's my pleasure. Thank you, Craig. And that, unfortunately, brings us to the end of our show. We've enjoyed having you with us as we discussed winning it all, balancing a career in law and the pursuit of happiness with our special guest, Labor and Employment Law attorney, Bob Katz. There's so many young people coming into the profession and questioning if a career in law is worth the effort and the sacrifice. Bob's message and example could not be more relevant or timely. Creating balance and fulfillment in a life that includes a legal career is something that starts with making time for the people who matter. It is the process of investing that time in people, your family, your friends, yourself, that builds a reputation and a career of distinction. But most importantly, a life of meaning. It also apparently can make you run really fast. Hey, if you want to see this show again, go to thinktecoy.com or youtube.com backslash thinktecoy. There you'll find a link to this show and many more just like it. As always, thanks so much to our studio staff and to all of those who watched and care and contribute to thinktec productions. My name is Craig Wagner and I appreciate you watching and look forward to seeing you again. Mahalo. I know Mahalo.