 Aloha, and welcome to another episode of the Hawaii Food and Farmers series. I'm your co-host Matt Johnson, and unfortunately, I know most of you are hoping to see Justina Spiritu. She's not here with us today. She'll be back in a couple of weeks. Apologize for the hiatus that we took, but thank you, James McKay, for jumping in, and hope you all enjoyed listening to him. As always, you can find us here on Think Tech every Thursday at 4 p.m. And we're talking to Hawaii's movers and shakers in our local food economy. So talking to farmers, talking to restaurateurs, and today we're talking to a writer, journalist, and also a chef. With us today is Martha Chang. But just before we get into that, if you want to join the conversation, you can tweet us at atthinktechhi, and after the show, you can see us up on YouTube at thinktechhawaii.com. So yeah, our guest today is Martha Chang. She is a writer, a chef, and also recently just came back from a conference, a biannual conference in Italy, which is the Terra Madre Salon del Gusto. So we'll be talking about that trip as well. So Martha, thanks so much for joining me on the show. Thanks for having me. Yeah, so you and I met not too long ago. So you have one of those really interesting pasts, a lot of different things. And you're one of those people that is well known in the local food economy of Hawaii, especially in the restaurant industry. Can you talk a little bit about what got you involved in liking food so much? Doesn't everybody? I mean, I think it was partly my parents are from Taiwan. They're Taiwanese immigrants. And so Taiwan is just a food obsessed culture. You always talk about your next meal during your meal. You talk about what you ate before. And just a common greeting is like, have you eaten yet? So it's just totally ingrained in, I think, my psyche. But I don't think I ever really, you know, thought about it as like, it didn't really come into my consciousness, I think, until I was in the Peace Corps. Yeah, so like. And you were in St. Vincent? I was in St. Vincent, yeah, in the Caribbean. And there's just, I didn't have a lot of a lot of things to connect with people on. So I was really struggling on developing a community until one day, I think someone just invited me to make a cake with her. And I was like, all of a sudden it was like, we had this common language. Yeah, so that's just what I found that I could connect with people on. Now, I think this was very similarities to Taiwan, where was food? I mean, I mentioned food was very important in their culture as well. Not to the like obsessive degree that Taiwan is like, Taiwanese are important. Yeah, it's like the Olympics, I'm a little embarrassed to say, yeah. Yeah, and I think it's also, you know, because it's a little bit more well off. So St. Vincent, no, it was much more of a, it was much more of just you, you eat to survive. But I mean, but every culture, even if you eat to survive, we all have opinions about our food, right? Everyone knows if they like a cake or they don't. And they'll let you know. So, yeah. And so so right now you're currently the editor of Hawaii Farm and Food magazine. Talk a little bit about the the magazine, because it's a new magazine, new publication started in 2015. Yes, relatively new, though. I think it was in the iteration of four. It was like re-incarnation. Oh, OK, yeah. So it's the Hawaii Farm Bureau magazine. And basically, we just tell stories about some of the farmers on Hawaii, some of their challenges and obstacles and what they do to make it in Hawaii. OK. And then before that, you were the food editor with Honolulu Magazine. Yes, yeah. And that's some interesting stories from there, because part of your assignment was being a food critic. Yeah. And that was just totally my accident. When I started writing about food, I just I wanted to stay as far away from restaurant criticism as I could because I just didn't want to get involved with that. I didn't want to get involved with like, you know, closing down a business if that if I didn't like it or something. Or and also just a lot of response. Yeah, yeah. And it's so personal, I feel like food is so personal. Like, I don't think it's something should rely on my experience alone. Or someone should not draw a conclusion on a place based on my. Like, right off a place just because Martha Cenk doesn't like it. Yeah, yeah. I'm just one person with a very specific power upbringing. What else were you doing at Honolulu Magazine then? So basically writing about Hawaii's food culture from all these different angles. So I think one of my favorite some of the favorite things that I did at the magazine were these packages called like the Everything Guide to X. So the first one we did was Japanese food in Honolulu because Japanese restaurants are like the predominant restaurants in Hawaii. And there's like, there's some it's interesting because there's some that are very traditional Japanese. And there's some that are this weird local magic that only exists in Hawaii. And the diversity within Japanese food is just so fascinating. So there was that. We did Everything Guide to Ahi. So like kind of what it's like to be on a long line boat. People who are trying to raise Ahi, trying to farm Ahi. Which has been extremely pertinent lately because there's been articles coming out talking about some of the really horrendous conditions for the fishing industry for actually people working on the boats. Yeah, a lot of conversation about that lately. Yeah. And I think it's it's interesting. I was having a conversation with a friend recently and we're like not to be I think this is more about us. But I guess we're just so cynical is like I thought everyone knew about this already. Yeah. And she was talking about there was recent New York magazine. They're talking about basically if you look at everything in our food supply, there's nothing that's untainted. And I think it's terrible that then our attitude is like, well, this is the way it is versus like what OK, so what are we going to do? We need to make some immediate changes or also I wonder what it looks like. So it looks like if you were to actually pay everyone well, if you were to have environmentally clean food, like what would that look like? How much would it cost? What are sacrifices? What do we have to make for that? Yeah. And I think that's bring up a good point. Like people that, you know, are kind of working in the industry like pretty much everybody we have on the show here. I mean, we're getting involved and we understand and it is interesting when you talk to groups outside of, I guess, the choir. And yeah, sometimes it is kind of a kick saying, oh, yeah, there's still a lot of misinformation. There's really only a small group of people that are really paying attention and then trying to understand that. So I think people like you that are writing about it and using some of these larger, more well read medias is so important. So so I kind of want to because there's so many different facets to it. I kind of want to pull out. I don't want to forget anything before we dive too deep on any one subject. But so then even before you're at home, a magazine, I mean, you're you're a chef as well. Talk a little bit about about that experience and did that start with the cake that you you baked in Saint Vincent? Where'd that come from? Started with me begging a lot of bakeries in the Bay Area to take me on as like an apprentice or something to teach me. So I finally found a woman who was just starting a baker and was like, OK, let's see. Yeah. So I started baking in the Bay Area. And then when I moved to Hawaii, I started as a line cook at Longs. Like, wow. So I mean, I still love pastry, but I was just eating way too much cake. So I was like, I need to move into something healthier. Yeah, yeah, every side. So, yeah, I loved. OK, that's not true. When I first started, I hated it and come home crying every night. Hard work. Yeah. And it's just you're not used to it, right? And so I was just a busboy in the restaurant. We're at the bottom of the totem pole. Yeah, we got beat down pretty badly. But maybe the people at the bottom of the totem pole have it worse. So I think I mean, any job in a restaurant, especially something like I imagine Al Wong's. I mean, it's it's high-paced and probably very active. Yeah, it was just so stressful. Like, I was not used to that kind of that that stress, that constant, like, you know, everything has to come out at a certain time. Everything has to be coordinated. So it took me a long time to get into the rhythm of it. But once I did, I'd loved it. How long were you there? Two years. OK. And then where did you go after that? After that, then I started freelance writing. That's when I I was kind of doing it on the side when I was working at the pineapple room. And then and then just kind of went for it after I left. OK. So then I was started the weekly and then became the food editor at the weekly. OK. And that's kind of how it all started. Yeah, OK. And then so what kind of things like how would you describe then your so you start off doing like freelance writing and you got in both editor. And I mean, your career has really progressed and been able to do different things. You're well known in the community. What is it about your writing or the topics? I mean, what do you say is something that you like to focus on or is kind of your niche? Oh, I don't know. I'm just always looking for a good story, I guess. OK. People that I'm interested in. I think it's mostly the people why something that draws me to a story. Yeah. And so because you're talking to restaurants, but you're also you work with with farms. How about for some of their some of the farms that you've worked with that you've been really interested in or or something that you didn't expect from when you first started the story? Recently, we did actually our current issue of the Hawaii Farm and Food Magazine is about local chocolate, which I had written about for Honolulu magazine, too. But I thought that to me was interesting because at first when I heard about it, like that the ag industry is super interested in locally grown chocolate. I was like, oh, it's just I don't know. Everyone's looking for the next big thing, like the next cone of coffee and the next pineapple. But it's just, you know, every time everyone floods a market, then the prices come down. And then it just ends up being the same thing, like going to the sugar or the pineapple route all over again. But the more I talked to farmers about it, I realized I don't I think it is different. And I think there is a lot of there's a I think there is a market for it. And I think it's exciting. I think it'll be really exciting to see how it unfolds because in this case, it's actually different, right? All the all the techniques and all the chocolate right now is being grown in third world countries. And so it's kind of like Hawaii is now kind of taking all that knowledge and bring it here and trying to create a more transparent product and hopefully better product that will come in the price. So I don't know. I think it's I'll be curious to see how it works out. Well, I definitely I'm curious to hear more from you on your perspective on that chocolate industry because I've been hearing a lot about it as well. But we do have to take a quick break. And then we're also going to talk about your trip to Italy as well when we come back. So yeah, we'll be right back. Aloha, I am Reg Baker. And I am the host of business in Hawaii with Reg Baker. We broadcast live every Thursday from two to two 30 in the think tech studios in downtown Alululu. We highlight successful stories about businesses and individuals and learn their secrets to success. I hope you can join us on our next show on Thursday at two o'clock. Until then Aloha. Hello, I'm Marianne Sasaki. Welcome to think tech Hawaii where some of the most interesting conversations in Honolulu go on. I have a show on Wednesdays from one to two called Life in the Law where we discuss legal issues, politics, governmental topics and a whole host of issues. I hope you'll join me. And we're back to Hawaii Food and Farmer series. I'm your co-host, Matt Johnson. Apologize, Justine can't make it with us today but she'll be back in a couple of weeks. And as always you can join the conversation by tweeting in at think tech H.I. And yeah, we're talking to Martha Chang with us today who is a writer and also a chef. And just kind of talking about Martha, you're just, I'm curious to hear more about your perspectives as you see different parts of the local food, local ag industries. We're talking about chocolate. And that was the most recent cover story for Hawaii Farm and Food Magazine. So the picture of the cover right here. And so you're kind of talking about how you've seen other crops become, people get very excited about is the next big thing but you were saying that you feel that there may actually be something with chocolate. You wanna talk a little bit more about that? Yeah, I think that the chocolate market is, as they say, there's just not enough chocolate being grown right now. And one farmer I talked to will live gate stillgrass farms on Kauai. Like he said Hawaii's the only place in the U.S. where you can grow chocolate. And so it's also the only place where there's no cultural barriers between the people who are making chocolate and the people who are growing chocolate. So that just opens up all these possibilities of time. So when you say, so you're talking about like the chocolate deers, the ones who are taking the product and making it the final bar or whatnot and the actual growers. What do you mean by cultural barriers? Like what? Because right now almost all the chocolate is being grown in Africa or Central America or South America. And then most of all the makers are in Europe and America. So there's just this, there can be a cultural disconnect and there's also the distance. And so Hawaii, making Hawaii a cacao growing region opens up all these possibilities for the bean to bar makers to come here to really kind of influence and play with the cacao. Because it turns out, I mean, cacao is just like coffee or wine. There's so many points along the way where you can change the final flavor. So yeah. Oh, interesting. So that's where there's more opportunity to be vertically integrated in Hawaii. Cause I know right now isn't most of the roasting of cacao, doesn't that need to be shipped out to California in their place in San Francisco where? That's the making. So actually, yeah. So most cacao when a bean to bar maker gets it is already roasted and processed. And then they turn it into the bars. And so I think the one you're thinking of is dole, dole used to grow the cacao, ferment it and roast it and then ship it to Qatar in San Francisco to make into bars. But dole is starting to recognize that the vertical integration could be very valuable. And so they're actually now keeping all their cacao and doing it in-house. So they're making all their own bars now. So just in the past year, they started doing this. Oh, wow. And right now, so there's this huge demand for the Hawaii chocolate, but there's not enough being grown. Not enough like locally grown cacao. Yeah. So a lot of the bean to bar makers here now are having to import their beans. It's like the bean to bar makers are like, I know, Madre chocolate. Manoa chocolate. Manoa chocolate. Yeah. Those are the two main ones. Okay. Well, that's great to see. I mean, you need to have that, you know, the value added part of it as well. And like how you say it too, where there's more of that connection between the cacao growers, because I imagine probably cacao growers, if they're growing in a different part of the world, especially if it's a developing part of the world, they're probably not getting the most fair prices for the work that they're doing. So if you have more of that integration and appreciation of the growers and then all the way to that final bar, then hopefully that makes for a more fair industry. Yeah, yeah. And I think tying back into Terramajae or the big theme of Terramajae this year. Oh yeah, let's go into Terramajae. Yeah, yeah. Thanks for bringing that up. Oh, you're good to do the show. The big theme of this year's conference was biodiversity. Okay. And... Can you give a little background on the conference first? Yeah. So Terramajae is a biannual conference for Slow Food. Slow Food was an organization that started in Italy, kind of basically has a response to fast food. So a way to kind of reclaim some of the cultural, or culinary heritage and just celebrate, they call it good, clean and fair food. So environmentally clean and fair for the workers. So every other year they kind of throw this conference in Italy to bring together people around the world, a lot of farmers and chefs around the world to talk about just what they're dealing with, some issues that they're dealing with. And it's also, then they also have this huge market alongside the conference where they showcase just all of the food. Just food from everywhere. Yeah. You must have been just eating all the time. This is crazy. Well, it's funny though because it's, so this year was the first year they did it in the streets of Turin. So it was just, it like took over the city just all these stalls. But the funny thing is like so 75% of it was Italian. So all the different regions of Italy and all the different little products of all those regions in Italy. And then the rest was the rest of the world. So China had one booth, America had one booth. Like, so yeah, it was a little Italian centric. But yeah. Makes sense. So that's how the main theme was biodiversity. And so I think we forget that in every, everything we grow, there was and sometimes still is this huge biodiversity within each crop and chocolate's one of those examples. Like there isn't just one variety cacao. And so there's a guy on Maui who's, who's toying with the idea of like making a single varietal cacao. Like the same way you would do a Cabernet Sauvignon or a Camarillo. And I just, I just think that's interesting to like tease out all those different varieties. Cause I think that's also how you create like a more resilient farm, right? Cause I imagine, yeah, there might be some benefits to having that one being that's known for Hawaii. But like you're saying, having different flavors, different experiences. And also if you're the chocolatier, you may want to experiment with different things as well. Yeah. And I think it's beneficial for the farmer too, because you kind of, you kind of don't put all your eggs in one basket. Yeah, yeah. No, unintended. Like you're saying that being more, less resistant to disease of one variety as an issue, you have other varieties to rely on. Yeah. And that's similar to like, we've had guys on here before talking about permaculture and a very similar concept to that. Now, who else was at the conference? Cause there's always a good contingent from Hawaii. Who else was there this year? So this year was Majer chocolate. Oh, perfect. Most, I swear he was the most popular person of all. Oh, I bet. He's always like, that just always carries chocolate with him, which is like, better currency than money. And then Charlie Rapoon from my whole life, yeah. So yeah, I knew it was super, it was fun. Like every time Charlie would see a farm, he'd kind of just like, he'd run out and like smell the dirt and like taste it, just to see what it all like. It's good all up in there. Yeah. So, and then there was some, there was, cause we have a big Oahu contingent and then a big island contingent. Oh, okay. So there are some people from the big island as well. That seems like a good combination where you have, you as kind of like the chef, writer, and then you have Nat, who's like the value added processor. You have Charlie, who's the grower. So it's a neat combination. Yeah. And then you guys, do you go through, cause there's a Slow Food Hawaii organization as well. Do you kind of go through or with them or is it just kind of going on your own? Oh yeah, we go through Slow Food Oahu. Oh, okay. Yeah. So Lori Carlson, who is the president of Slow Food, actually, I think she's actually the governor of the whole region. Okay. So yeah, she kind of organizes us and takes us under her wing. Nice. So yeah. That sounds exciting. So what would you, and it was a week long conference or is it longer than that? Yeah, it was about, I think, about a week, five days. Okay. Yeah. So you're eating, meeting people from all over the world, trying different things. So what did you foresee or what do you see that anything you learned that could be adapted maybe in Hawaii as kind of strengthening our food system here? I think embracing the biodiversity was a big one. So a lot of the workshops were centered around that. So there was a Ugandan chef who prepared different ways of cooking all these different bananas, which I thought was super relevant to us, right? Yeah. Because we have so many varieties of bananas. And the chocolate, I don't know if it's the other, okay, what's the other workshops for? Oh, but there was also Chinese farmers. I went to a session where Chinese farmers were talking about some of the things they grow and how they're trying to grow differently from the large industrial machine. And there's tons of biodiversity at China, right? I think probably even more than Italy, it just doesn't, we don't hear about it as much because of translation issues. But, so I guess that to me is the main thing is celebrating Hawaii's biodiversity and the products that we make. But I mean, my other, I don't know if this isn't anything concrete, but like the thing I realized when I was in Italy, it's, you know, the Terra Madre is about celebrating all these like artisanal foods. But the fact is like, even Italy isn't immune to industrialization, right? Everywhere you go, there's still like, there's still the McDonald's, there's still supermarkets. Not everyone goes to the farmer's market. And I think, I don't know, but I do think that for every, so there was this big talk at Terra Madre how we need to kind of stand up to the, stand up to the industrial companies. And so I do feel like so for every action, there's another reaction, right? So as much as these industrial companies, the large industrial companies will grow, there will be more and more of the artisanal ones kind of in reaction or more of a preservation of them. But I also don't think that it needs to be one or the other. Like I'm really interested in the space in between. Like how can you grow a larger company that also cares about taste and labor and environmental issues? Yeah, I'm really interested in that space in the middle. Yeah, yeah. Well, it seems like a very, you know, practical way to look at it because you definitely have, kind of sometimes describe Hawaii's food economy as almost like two camps. You have like kind of your old school ad guys or big farm, including like the seed core companies, they have like these smaller permaculture type farms. And I think that's always kind of in my perspective too, is like these two camps need to figure out how we're all gonna work together. Because it's already so hard as it is just to have any agriculture in a place like Hawaii where there's so many pressures outside of the industry to just really kind of push it out of the way. So I think that's a neat perspective. And also too with where you are at the Hawaii Farm Bureau magazine. So I think that's a neat position for someone like you to be in to kind of showcase some of these smaller artisanal type farms and restaurants that are out there that maybe before haven't been associated with a group like the Farm Bureau. So I think that's neat and you've been exciting to see the different stories that have been in there. And I think it's a great resource. So moving forward with, I guess kind of your career or your different things that you're doing, what do you see as kind of next for you and what you wanna see happen? Oh yeah, don't ask me questions about the future. I never know, I wouldn't have guessed 10 years ago I didn't be here, or maybe even two years ago. So how about with adding more cooking into your career? Are you still cooking? Do you cook a lot at home? I cook some at home. I did, I have a cookbook coming out in January. Oh, how did that slide this past 29 minutes? Let's do a plug for that real quick, but only have about a minute. Okay, I'm sure you've heard Poké super hot right now. Yep. So a publisher in New York asked if I wanted to do a Poké cookbook, which to be honest, I was very hesitant about at first. Actually, I'm still very hesitant about it, given some of the controversy around it right now. And your Poké could be so controversial. I know, right? Yeah, sometimes we can bring it together, but I think it's very divisive. So we're going to have to wrap it up there. Thank you so much, Martha. And as always, come back every Thursday, and we will see you in a quick vlog.