 session has been recorded. Excellent. Okay, let's go. Well, good morning everyone. Thank you for joining us. Good morning. Hello. It's a rather grey day here, isn't it? It is. It is. But we're here in our studio. We are. We are. And we suspect that most people are regulars, but for anyone that isn't or might be viewing a recording, my name's Chris Boris and I'm the Copyright Licensing and Policy Manager at the University of Kent. And I'm Jane Secker and I'm a senior lecturer at City University. We run the Copyright and Online Learning at a time of uncertainty webinar series. And we're also co-chairs of the Old Special Interest Group for Copyright and Online Learning, which many of you are members of. So what are we going to do today then? Thanks for joining us today. So we'll be doing some copyright news as ever. We've got some good opportunities, particularly for professional development this time round. But the main topic today is Irene from Johor Library University at Medway. We'll be talking us through the survey that she ran on these webinars. Feedback from these webinars and what you and others are looking for in the future. So it's a really good opportunity to take stock of what's been happening over the past year and the half or more than that now and to think about. And to give us some more feedback as well. We want to have a bit of a discussion, don't we? Yeah, absolutely. About what you'd like to see for the webinars, particularly from 2022. We've got quite a few lined up already now for going through to the end of this year. But we're open to all sorts of suggestions of what kinds of topics you want to cover next year. Yep, that's definitely the plan for today. Right, shall we talk about what's happened since we last met? Yes. Shall I go first? You should go first. So that's a very bizarre picture. It is a slightly bizarre picture. So I'm talking to you about the sound. I want to obviously make sure that the sound is right. But what this is, is in my bathroom, this was at home, I stacked up all this acoustic panels that I'd used, created a few years ago when I made a recording studio with a friend of mine in a tiny shed. Now, I brought them all back. Now, there's way more than I thought there were. I will be over time chopping these up and putting them in the room that I normally sat at when I'm back in my house, turning it into an Uso sound cave. But what it does is it stops the reflection. So if there are any comments on the sound quality, I haven't got those panels. There might be some left over. I knew that's what you were hinting at. I knew they would, yes. We will be, in terms of the setup there, so we've got this setup where we think this works as well as a sort of desk format, and we are planning on doing some, so we might be able to do some more acoustic and lighting work, so all that in the pipeline. Yeah. So yeah, that's my nerdy session at the moment. It is. It is, yes. And what I've been up to, so I've been really busy, and I've been getting my module ready. I'm going to say a bit more about that in news because there is an open webinar series that runs along with that, but that's starting next week. Digital literacy is an open practice, so just getting ready to teach my module, which runs at Citi for, mainly for staff who are taking the master's in academic practice, but some LIS students as well. And I think some members of the library staff are coming on the module this time, so yeah, it's very exciting. And as my cat Pickle is helping, she's very good. She's going to feature a lot in there. Yeah. Yeah. We'll have to lock her out of the room, won't we? She might. She actually locked in somewhere. So she could appear. Okay. Right. So this is a reminder that we have an archive of all the previous webinar recordings. Now we are doing a bit of work on how we can make these even more accessible, and we're probably having a conversation with Greg later about the YouTube channel, or the YouTube playlist that Alton set up. And so we're looking at whether we can pull out some of the previous ones, which are of particular relevance and do work with it. But yes, if you want to see the full list, it's there, but we realize that it could be more accessible. More accessible. Yeah, definitely. How we do that. Definitely. Okay. So it looks like we are on to talking about as we pass this way to find the jingle. Oh. Okay. What's going on in the world of Copyright News, Chris? Well, let's find out the first one. Okay. I think we had a question about this as well from Alison that I just saw pop up on the screen. So do you want to tell us that leaf causes? These are the... I don't think we've got anyone from... No, I would just have a look at this to see whether people have joined us in the past. I know that learning on-screen, if there are any questions about how to pay for the courses, they should be able to provide you that information. These are the courses that Bart Milletti has been running for some time, and a Sergio from Learning On-Screen posted a link to these on this copy see earlier this week. These are excellent sessions. If you particularly are looking at how Copyright relates to creative reuse in audio-visual works, very strong link with the presentation that we had from Bart that we did with him last time round. So, you know, he's got some lots of books of Copyright and how it works, and then lots of use cases and really good examples of how this really... how it works in education and research. So, recommended course. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, that's something there for people to join. The next one, the Siteway Forum. Yes. So, I think this has been posted on this copy see. I'm sure many of you have heard. And it's a free event. Some of you have definitely been along to this before, but it's going to be online. It's on the 25th of November. So, we've just got a link there to the Eventbrite page. And, you know, do get yourself signed up if you haven't. There's a couple of... I think there's a morning and an afternoon session, and there's going to be some really interesting speakers. Yes. So, yeah. The next thing to point you towards is this future of open webinar that Creative Commons are running. So, they have a number of different platforms, and these are findings on policy issues. So, they're looking at the whole open ecosystem, different cultural heritage. I think they've had four working groups, haven't they, that have been working in different areas, one of which very, very has been leading. I think it looks like the one that might be most relevant, because it does talk about copyright as well, that one. But, yeah, this webinar has a chance to find out, I think, about all the work that they've been doing and the sort of findings from those four working groups. So, it's probably a good way of getting up to speed without having to plan through lots and lots of talking. Yes. As with the Creative Commons summit, there is registration where you can choose how much you pay for that. So, it's a kind of donation model. But, as with everything around Creative Commons, there is freely accessible options for everyone. So, the final part of our copyright news is... Yeah. So, I just wanted to flag up. So, I mentioned that I've been busy getting my module ready. I do have a blog for my module, Physical Literacies and Open Practice. So, there's quite a lot of information if you're not taking the course and you're interested. But the main thing is there is a webinar series. And coming up on the 29th of October, if you can't get enough of Chris Morrison, they'll be talking at, I think it's at 11 o'clock, that webinar. But the details are all on the website there if you want to put the place. I think, Chris, you're going to be talking about copyright and how it relates to both digital issues and open practice. That's the brief I've been given by the incredibly demanding module coordinator. But people who've heard you before, you can say some new stuff, maybe. Yeah, well. I'll do my best. So, yeah, that's on the 29th. But it's also worth checking out some of the other speakers. I've got a really great lineup of people speaking. I've got Lorna Campbell and Katherine Cronin who are both giants in the field of open education. They'll be talking at my webinar on the 4th of November. And then I've got some colleagues, Julie Ghost, who's actually co-teaching the module with me at Citi. And our colleague, Lauren Reagan, they're going to be talking about some findings from the Digital Capability Survey that we ran at Citi just this year. So it's some findings about students and their digital capabilities. The full list is there. I won't go through them all, but if you do want to come along, then you're very welcome. They are open to excellence. It would be a bit strange if they weren't. Yes. Give them the title. Excellent. So, you're up to date. So let's get on with today's session where we are evaluating the webinar series. So we'd like to get hiring. Can you see if your microphone is working? Can we hear you? Can we see you? I hope so. Yes, yes, yes. Hi, how are you doing? I'm okay. I'm just wondering why did I agree to do this? You're a legend and it's going to be brilliant. So I'm going to get your slides up. And are you there in your new office? I am in my new office. I do have an office, everyone. We could have all been in the same place. Can I, can I just say it? You are more than welcome to come and broadcast from here. One of the future webinars because there's plenty of room. Oh, okay, okay. There could be a waterfront behind it. We could go for a maritime theme. Let's do that. Is it the longest library in Europe? They claim that, but I have not been able to approve either way. Well, that's your task. While you work there, you'll have to go around murdering libraries all around Europe. Yeah, but I volunteer to do that. So Irene, over to you. Hopefully you can advance the slides because you should have the presentation right. But you're going to talk us through the survey and the analysis of that when you go. Yes, I want to, I have to say, I don't see any where where I can advance the slides. Ah, okay. There should be a little, webinar survey analysis. If not, you can do the classic next slide, please. Okay. Because I really cannot see any buttons that allow me to do that. Okay. We will advance them for you. Don't worry. Okay. So is that okay? I have to say, you know, like, it's not like we are talking in cryptic here. It's a, um, I, I've been, um, not at the moment, the collaborations, completions and copyright manager at the University of Greenwich. I have accepted, um, an interim post as the drill hall manager. So this is probably my last geek as copyright manager for a few months at least, but I'm very pleased that this is how I am closing this stage for the time being anyway. Well, I'm going to give you a checklist, Irene. Always. Exactly. Always. Okay. Yeah. So, yeah. So next slide, please. There we go. Right. So, you know, as, as most of, of colleagues in, in, in the webinar today, they know we've been, um, we, we run, um, I run, um, um, survey in, in able, in, in order to be able to, um, evaluate the impact that these webinars that Jane and Chris run from the very, very beginning of, of the pandemic at a time, definitely of, I'm 13 and 13th. Um, and what the women have meant for the community and, and how we can kind of, you know, draw lessons, lessons to be learned and how to move them also forward. So, uh, I've been analyzing the, the results and I, I have to say that analyzing the survey results have gave me a real opportunity for reflection, for reflection on those first few days, um, first few weeks, uh, of, of lockdowns and, and, and the pandemic and all those worry news that, uh, we were watching from home. And, and it has helped me also to realize, and I'm sure colleagues will agree with this. And, and the survey tells, tells us these, uh, how lonely the life of a copyright manager the life of a copyright officer, uh, is or was and how at the very beginning we could almost feel that, you know, the, the, you know, people were running around trying to figure other things. And suddenly, um, when there was no access to physical resources, um, and what that meant for the, our institutions, um, suddenly there was a need for an alternative. How would we make these, these resources available? How do we, how do we support the learning of students remotely without not really knowing how, how long this was going to be for? And suddenly we found ourselves at the center of it. And, and you know, there was that need to, to come together. Um, and, and, and, and serve good practice and set advice. And, and I think I have to say, uh, Chris and Jane, the survey, um, reflects on this, the survey, collect this idea that, you know, you make such a big, huge difference from the very beginning. And I think it's a good example how sometimes people, individuals can have a real impact in, in a collective experience. So, you know, my, my personal thank you to you both, but this is what the, the survey respondents are also telling, telling me and I guess telling, telling us. So, um, you know, we did have 62 respondents to the, to the survey. Um, all of them from the UK. And, um, a set for one person who may have not uh, attend the webinars, but probably benefited from the recordings or the slides after, you know, um, we all, um, attended, um, a number of them. So if we can move to the next, um, slide, please. Again, this is not a surprise to anyone. The majority of attendees are people in, in the libraries or, um, you know, with, with a copyright responsibility, you know, being the manager, being the office or being the librarian who knows a little bit more and, and, and answer those questions. But 100% belong to the HE sector. Next slide, please. And, um, you know, as I said, most, almost all of the respondents tuning live, but with different frequency, but definitely the watching of the recordings, the looking at the slides, contributing, uh, to the sessions as a speaker or as a participant asking questions. It is something that, you know, all of, all of us, uh, did. Next question, please. Sorry. Next slide, please. Uh, the next two slides are about impact. And I can leave those there to, uh, for colleagues to, to read. And obviously the slides are going to be available to everyone after. But for me, the highlights are 82.3% of participants agree or highly agree that the webinars have held them to develop their professional confidence further. 83.9%, almost 84% of participants agree or highly agree that the webinars held them to develop a sense of belonging within the wider copyright community. And almost, um, 56.5% of the participants agree or highly agree that the webinars have help enhance the student and staff experience at their organizations during the pandemic. And I, I guess if the proof is in the pudding, as they say, I think this is very, uh, telling how getting together and having been exposed to information and, um, expert experience and expert advice allow big part of all of us to develop a service or to put guidance in place that had a direct impact in the, um, activities of our institutions. So if we can move to the next slide, and I give a brief time for colleagues to also look at those. I just want to talk very briefly that from this, from the analysis of the impact for me, I can see two big themes, which is how these webinars became the professional support that son of us needed at that time of uncertainty, but also they were there for personal support. And if we move to the next slide where I have gathered son of the comments from the respondents about this impact professionally, but also personally, son of the survey respondents are telling us are coming on how the lockdown impacted on them personally and as I have already mentioned they felt very isolated from the rest of their colleagues but suddenly these webinars presented an opportunity for colleagues to be able to talk to other colleagues even if those colleagues were in other institutions and explore options, alternatives of plans to be put in place to support students and staff but definitely there was a huge impact on your personal your personal life regarding the professional support, the webinars were an opportunity to build and develop professional confidence and having the community gather presented with opportunities to discuss and also to develop knowledge and serve good practice. If we can move to the next slide please. I guess the frequency of how we would like these webinars to be run moving forward I think if the question was do we want this to carry on, the answer is yes but now that we are less, we are out of the kind of crisis and we are probably all back on campus and back on the office maybe there is a less need for this to happen every week and maybe fortnightly or monthly is the way to move this forward. Next slide please. I found the answers for when we ask for suggestions for topics for future webinars very interesting because actually all the things that they are on this slide are things that we discuss constantly and there are things that are mentioned almost on every webinar that you have run so I guess there is a need to have dedicated webinars to different things but actually with copyright with the way things are going these are things that we can discuss almost non-stop but I guess these are the areas of interest for professionals with copyright responsibilities and how long is a threat of court so I believe this is the last slide and now I would like to give you back the mic and see how you want to explore all this. Thank you Irene, thanks very much. Yeah thank you it's really good to be able to share back with the people primarily we are working on the basis that the people present largely have built in that survey so really good to be able to see those results in total and have a conversation. We are going to write it up as a report. I had a little quiet and I lit some of it as well What we wanted to do was have a discussion about what we found, what people were saying some reflections from us over the last few months and then thinking about what happens next and what we are already doing we have already been responding to this we have already moved to a monthly frequency which seems to make more sense but generally speaking we were very pleased to get some positive feedback to hear how many people were saying that it kept them going to have something where we were able to share and bring some more light-hearted and less doom-laden discussions into what was going on but actually it helped us going we were also struggling just like everybody else was really at that time and to be able to bring people together and to feel like the thing is that this community has been around for a long time and in fact it certainly pre-exists mine education space so it was great to be able to pick up on the fact there was already a well-established discussion list the questions were coming through and it just gave us an opportunity to do something that helped us feel like because otherwise it was that feeling wasn't it at that time of powerlessness what we actually do and being able to connect and talk to other people and to hear lots of the questions that were coming up were very similar around in all the different universities I've certainly found that something that when I kind of think another crazy thing happening and then I discover actually it's happening across higher education we're all going through this kind of crazy time at the moment so we had a couple of things that got stuck up it was really nice to read the things that you all said but I'm never happy am I I'm always looking for ways how could we do it better you're always picky yes so some of the practical things the frequency it was exhausting doing it on a weekly basis in fact we were in that what's happening next is the British Library open or closed and we were in that sort of moment so we felt it was necessary to share as frequently as that so I think this seems to make sense I mean it's it's it takes some time for us to do it and we do do it because it's related to our role in our area of interest as a sustainability one of the main reasons we wanted to set up a special interest group was to actually bring a few people into the organisational and keeping things going and see if we could put out getting other people to contribute which has been great and we've had such a brilliant response to that so again thank you Irene for having done this job and thanks to everyone else that's been supporting it's been quite difficult for us to let go in some respects though hasn't it because we kind of set it up and we sort of spun it up as a cottage industry and then so I think we need to but I think we are, if anyone has got any ideas and suggestions and if people want to drop us a line after today or come on the mic and talk to us while we're live then we're really we're really keen to hear your ideas and I think one of the things that I've done when I've set up other groups as well is I've often thought ok well I'm reaching this little audience we've kind of got a nice little niche here but should we be bringing in more staff should teaching staff should non copyright specialists be attending the webinar should more learning technology come that was one of the comments that came through as well we were looking through the survey response and someone saying how can we get this well how can we reach those audience and they didn't really don't want to call for these other groups to hear the messages but they just don't seem to want to engage and I think it's the amount of time that they've got and the amount of how much do they want to do a deep dive into each of the different provisions I think some of the some of the topics have got much wider interest in them so we have had large numbers of 10 webinars we've done and that's what we need to I think perhaps focus on working out what are the topics that are going to have really broad appeal but also not forget about our community and we want to be able to talk about things that specialists want to talk about as well yeah so I think there are I mean what we've done is for example the recent control digital lending session that we did had a much broader appeal than the standard copyright even though it was very copyright related and we had Emily give quite a detailed legal talk on that but nonetheless it has huge impact on acquisitions librarians and library leaders and all there's larger political practical considerations of how that might work so I mean we could probably waffle on for a little bit longer just to say we would very much if anybody does have any thoughts about what we're saying or anything that they seem to think we want to encourage a discussion so please feel free to put your hand up or put a comment into the chat or a question or a thought and we'll pick up on that some other thoughts we had how does this relate to in-person events so we're having to carry on doing these sessions for as long as people find them useful and as long as we feel that it's a worthwhile undertaking yeah it would be wouldn't it would be nice to have an actual event maybe in 2022 we certainly hope that we can do our iSCOPS conference in-person next next June with all our time so yeah two and that's what we might find what our feeling is there are a range of different copyright and education related events and I'm thinking people being able to travel might be harder in the future than it was in the past I think and certainly in our university travel budgets have been put down to zero so if you want to travel this academic year you have to make a very strong case for why you have to travel there might need to some consolidation but I think it's a little bit like I'm going to use a metaphor that might not be very good if you're going to eat meat which you know you're not going to you might make it a special occasion something like that if we do travel we do get together then it's really to make the sense to eat meat not to eat no we can be open to it I'm very happy absolutely okay we've got a couple of comments coming in nice to be called an actual pleasure is that what you think don't let it go into your heads no exactly I like Philippa's suggestion that it would be nice to hear from a learning technologist we could I know a few could ask a few yeah that sounds like a good idea it's a very good idea we go to the assembly meetings of the association of learning technology as the co-chairs of the special interest group so we talk and tell them about all the stuff that's going on in the webinars all the things happening in this community I think there's it's time to say come and talk to us yeah maybe we'll get a couple to come along as well I think we can have like a panel a panel to my colleagues at the university who have been doing a lot of webinar work we're doing webinars cross-webinar like the podcast isn't it you do other your podcast so yes that's a good idea thank you Philippa what else have we got I think some other thoughts we had and Irene this was something you pulled out because you presented this to the special interest group committee a few weeks back some people saying we have more basic content can there be some more primers how does this stuff work I think we've been very keen to support people and people who recently pick up responsibility for copyright and in fact billing for next month that is the topic of next month's webinar which is becoming a copyright specialist and we're getting experiences and we've got three excellent speakers we've got Hannah Poiman from Essex and Simon from UWA of course he is and we've got Kate from Middlesex giving us different perspectives on that two of them more recently become copyright she's definitely indeed and we've been thinking about creating a course in copyright that is more than just a one day session or a two day session but less than doing a full on diploma postgraduate diploma like I did or the needs onto a master's but what we're seeing now is we've put together the special interest group we're getting interesting conversations and how that might work but it's a lot of work and it's a lot more work to put that kind of content together than is knocking together a monthly webinar we've got an eye on what happened in the US we had a very interesting conversation with Kyle Courtney last week about his copyright first responders and how that works which is a fantastic model if you're copyright legend that works at Harvard basically devote all your time and just travel all around the world teaching librarians about copyright because that's what you're into that's great I think there's something we can put together there but there's the what they've been doing at the University of Miami and Cardinal Myers there and we saw that I think we could link to that session didn't we? It is the Copyright 101 yes, the librarians and those guys we could do something like that on a sort of voluntary put it together kind of basis but I think it needs something really sustainable and someone's at least one or two or a core team's time to read that together I think we're concerned about how much professional development you can do in that more formal way as a volunteer and whether there's a responsibility for professional bodies to sort of help out here this is professional development and we're getting that coming back in the fall and we have to talk until it's time to talk about it quite a while but there's a difference between a community of practice in a more informal way than actually doing following a curriculum and a set agenda and having that being properly resourced so that people are supported as they go through that and a recognised doesn't need to be a full-on diploma qualification but we know you have something that is more meaningful than I signed up for this course and I was there for a day that would actually say no I that's ideally what we would like but it's how would that fit in with the other stuff we had some other things that we thought about we're going to try and make sure that we nominate a couple of people to take notes when we ever do closed sessions so we can get those out to people we're aware there's a couple of sessions that people miss although we do have recordings of them because they were closed sessions where we're sort of just working out what's the best way of making those available whether we can make them available in a more limited way by sharing them on this copy seek or if we just have somebody nominated you know we're sure for example at the last webinar we did a couple of people will have made notes for themselves and we're just thinking would people be happy then to sort of almost crowd source notes or share their notes so that because I think the stumbling block we have is at the end of the webinar it creates quite a lot of administration for us to sort of get on with them there's a few steps and we're happy to do them but getting the recording and getting the link up and updating the website and then making sure that anything that we said that we do in the heat of the moment oh yeah we'll do that I think it would be useful if others it's up to us really to ask I think it's actually good to call out but I think in the future it seems to make sense to me crowd source set from Chatham House notes that are pretty much ready after the event can almost immediately be circulated amongst on copy seek and anyone else that we feel it would be appropriate to share them but anyone's thoughts on that would be very welcome as well and anyone's thoughts on our singing we said less singing, I think that is not going to happen it's an outlier it's an outlier, that's nonsense yeah it's probably somebody who's told us we can't appreciate my incredible maybe some more dedicated karaoke sessions we're going to do a seatan for you anyway Ian's the right one for us so okay so should we open the floor see if anyone wants to start I've got that slide haven't I the one that says topics for future webinars which is actually similar to overlapped with Irene's slide but I could certainly hold it back up again but yeah anybody want to raise their hand to take the floor Irene is there anything you'd like to say in response to what we've said I just want to pick up on what you were saying about the need for some kind of official or a course or something that people can go and develop their knowledge and this is why I was very you know consciously chose the words build and develop professional confidence because you will you will assume that when people are giving responsibility for copyright and their institutions you know you come with some kind of knowledge or understanding and then you can develop your expertise but I think there is definitely a need and only talking from my personal experience to put some pressure in the powers to be in the official bodies to recognize that copyright is a very important issue you know when you are running or you are you're running a service, you're developing a library you are embedded in an academic context or not and you know maybe a course or module for Masters in Informations copyrights will have a bigger presence and do we have a state can we make suggestions but also always thinking of the obvious place to go which is CELIP you know and these are important issues because the more prepared people are the better you are the better prepared you are when you have to talk about for instance e-books and licensing or intellectual property in an educational context and you know and you have academics asking you do I own my rights to my presentation or do I own the rights to an article and all these things that very often are case specific but you know not of being a librarian never mind a copyright manager it's a really good point and it's just making me think now that clearly one of the roles of the special interest group is to make that case and to make that case to those other bodies rather than us saying hey we can create all this stuff and we'll do it because there is a limit to which you can do on a voluntary basis you know without actually having and I think if you know I have spoken a few times about this and you know they do run lots of courses about copyright we know they do and it is one of the most popular areas but it's just whether in making the case for taking that a step further and whether that should come from one of the library schools to offer it to people that other people can take or you know it's I think it's it's a conversation we've been having for many years it is and I think and we've never really kind of managed to convince anyone that this needs to be done but what we've found now is things change and clearly there is post-lockdown and you know whether there will be further lockdown for what has changed and if there are so Irene it's just that you know and I feel very strongly about this but I'm sure all the colleagues in the room do and you know I will hope to see other opinions here but do you think if librarians had in general a much more robust knowledge on copyright issues we will be able to use these cases when paying for licensing for electronic resources or I think the publishers will feel less comfortable or confident trying to develop the monopoly that they have because you know sometimes the thing is and we know copyright is very confusing and very blurry we will go around throwing very long words to people who don't know what they are not talking about librarians obviously I'm talking to other people signing those contracts and there is no way out of them but we know that there are arguments to be made against so that's just I guess that's just an area that I feel anyway very strongly about I entirely agree with you Irene what we've got though is there is a difference between understanding copyright law and having negotiation skills and knowing understanding what it means to negotiate and agree a contract and think through all of that and to do something which is effectively procurement and I think it's thinking that together so we speak to a lot of representatives from publishers and they don't necessarily know that much about copyright but they know about how their businesses work so it's part of the general commercial awareness that is at heart of the information profession and always has been dealing with budgets and dealing with running services and you need to have that knowledge but it is understanding copyright is particularly important to the information professional because they are constantly balancing that this is done under license with agreement and with permission and then here are things that libraries education and cultural institutions can do without the permission so it's the exception side of things so I think the two absolutely go hand in hand so we're not I don't think we're proposing with copyright it is the answer to everything everyone understands copyright but it's always embedded in the right place well I've just done a quick poll okay so and quite a few didn't answer it but that might be because you don't know or I just made it simple was a yes no you finished it I haven't I can get it up can you open up again are we going to run it again yeah I've got to run it again now sorry everyone it's been run again I can't seem to answer it maybe that's because I'm not I don't think the answer is a unanimous anyone who answers yes it would be useful yes yes yeah so okay well yeah um I know some people aren't been able to do it but yeah I think that it is something we're definitely exploring um we will keep you posted where we get to and if anyone's got any bright ideas we'd like to hear from you about that definitely so okay do you want us to show the topics that came up yeah let's go back to that okay I've just seen Jesse's point yeah it's good to get an understanding but could be a barrier for those trying to end the profession yeah what do you think to that I mean I suppose the thing is you wouldn't want it to remain be the thing I've always reflected on is that it doesn't fit I mean it is covered in an LAS qualification but not in a lot of detail but does it need to be covered there or is it something you do as CPD later if you decide for me it seems to fit into CPD where you're actually in a position where it's part of your role and then this would work if you were um yeah actually dealing with active things and that could be part of this qualification it's not abstract it's writing case studies it's working through in my in my own position and this is how I dealt with it but I suppose one thing just to come back on what Jesse said and I know Katie you said you agree as well but if you are going to be able to work in the world of libraries and you don't understand anything about copyright and licensing I think as we get more and more electronic resources you know I mean I do think that it does cut across maybe it's my way of viewing it but I thought that copyright cuts across so many aspects of library work but to avoid it is really quite unhelpful actually I mean it would be a bit like a librarian saying you know well I've heard about this thing with open access but I don't want to read up about that at all I don't want to know what it is because I just want to work in a public library I mean they're kind of issues around copyright and access to how it manifests itself in the library when you're running an interlibrary loan service when you've got a photocopier or a scanner when you've got electronic resources it does feel to me that it's kind of one of the really big issues you've got to you know I mean it's not something that people want to avoid it but they can't so they don't and actually many people don't avoid it at all and not just those of us on the call here Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah No, I think that, yeah So Kate commented that knowledge is essential with this course available to everyone with every scholarship See these are the kinds of things that you really need a proper resource projected to to look into, yeah absolutely, yeah absolutely, Louise I think that's a really good point if you want to speak, Louise do come on I mean I don't know what people think but my sort of sense I get is that often library directors don't necessarily know lots about copyright we were asked to write a briefing a scornal briefing to go to library managers because there was a sense scornal had a very strong sense that the Hargreaves review even though it was kind of five years later there was a lot of misunderstandings amongst senior management about how to interpret what the Hargreaves review how it amended the law and that people were still using kind of outdated practices so, okay Louise no problem at all, no problem Yeah So in terms of the topics, again this is similar to Irene's these ones that we drew out and they're ones that we've covered before I mean transnational education I don't think we have had a session on that that's probably in my view I was going to say it's less about copyright and more about licensing practices and how you negotiate those transnational deals but in fact if we think about transnational education and copyright and cross border access that's something we've spoken about in the past maybe we want a bit of a focus and maybe post implementation of the digital single market directive in Europe and how's it working in Europe and what are they doing and how does that impact what we do in the UK and how did that work to make sure we've honed the question a bit because if you say well let's talk about copyright post Brexit we just, it's a huge there's lots of different areas clearly we want to be looking at education and we want to be asking the right question open access we've in some ways been trying to not shy away from open access but we're very aware that we've built this as copyright and online learning and that the copyright elements of the open access discussion about ownership, copyright and the licenses that come off the back of the plan S and the rights for potential strategy are very very detailed and there is actually a session happening at the British Library and more institutions that are dealing with all that intellectual property stuff so I think we we are aware of those we're tracking them and we will point them out but I don't think it's something that necessarily sits that well with this series I haven't seen Mr Starr asking about when the session is at the British Library so that was discussed it was on the 1st of November it's an online event now it was on the UK SCL list so that is four institutions so I think I think what I'll do is find out from the media organisers whether they got spaces left and how they're managing that rather than just I think it could be post that on this copy I'll put an update to this copy where we are with that okay anyone does anyone want to stress any topics any more topics I just did we pick up Phillip's point about any course, go back to the course that it should be open rather than by the paywall that's what about major yeah, we would want it to be open we want everything that we do to be as open as it possibly can which is part of the reason why we haven't quite got on with the third edition of doing any other things and also we want to make it open that requires work well it requires funding so I think that's the sense that it's okay thanks Irene thank you very much for joining us Irene we're waving at you come see you soon but thank you anyone who's got to leave I think we're wrapping up now so as we said next session November and that's with Simon, Hannah and Kate and the discussion with them so it will be picking up from this discussion looking for the detail of their specific example so that's really looking forward to that one yeah, the session that we haven't yet got a date for we're hoping, we're just waiting for confirmation from the Intellectual Property Office's education team that they're going to be happy to present about the MIP education framework that they're working on at the moment and it's a framework that goes from schools all the way through to higher education and we think it will be really good if we can get them to come it'll be early December if we do this and so I think we have earmuffs we're waiting to this is a piece of work but a national framework for the whole of education they need to make sure they've gone through extensive consultation and they might not actually be ready to talk to us about it but we do have them, they have agreed that they will come and talk to us about it so we're only looking forward to that when it does happen but we have got the Christmas special locked in for December so I put that in your and we'll start working on that see Shanti shall we let's move on to next bit which is the thing that we are going to do as we build last time round we have a competition launched we have a t-shirt on offer for the best carb pumpkin so go put your carving skills into interaction can you have a go at making a pumpkin with copyright and online logo online learning logo on it if you can then we would like you to take photo of it you can email it to Chris and I if you're not on Twitter but you can tweet about it we need these ready though for Halloween so buy the 30th of October please and I think Greg you've got put together a web page with details about that so if you're able to share that in the chat with everyone so they can find out about that competition after today yeah it will be we're going to be tweeting about it and we look forward to seeing all those pumpkins which we are going to present in November marvellous thank you Greg you're going to make one aren't you have you got any pumpkins I've got five pumpkins yeah okay well at the end thanks very much for joining us everyone thanks again to Irene for presenting and for everybody there but we will see you again on the 12th of November stop the recording stop the recording have you done it? no you do it I can't look how to do it