 I'm for like, humanely, like, killing them. Animals could be bred in good conditions and allowed to live in good conditions. Well, you know, I'm not for any suffering, any death or anything like that, but maybe they could find a nicer way to do it. Well, I think there is a way to do it that isn't as cruel as the way they do it. There's much more better ways that they could do it, obviously. I've never seen any of this stuff. It's not as if that slaughter done humanely, you know, it's done in a controlled environment, it's stressed on the animals. It's kept to, like, a minimum, you know. People might have a much better way to actually slaughter the animals and serve them into the market. No, I said this fight ain't mate, but I disagree with the way they kill them. It all depends on how, again, they're treated and how they're culled. I mean... Is there a right way to kill someone? No, there isn't. But... Thanks for being honest. What's the humane way of slaughtering an animal? Well, look, less pain they feel, the better. Okay. Yeah, even if it was kept to a minimum, do you think it would be morally justified to, you know, take someone's life against their will, even if the stress was kept to a minimum? Um... Not really, to be honest. I'm just asking you to put yourself in the victim's position. Yeah, yeah. So you think it's humane to electrically shock someone and stab them in the throat drain them in the blood and chop them up into pieces for a product that we don't necessarily need? That's a load of question. What would you say is the best way to slaughter someone? I've never actually thought about it myself. Yeah. Honestly, I've never thought about it. Yeah. We make sure that they are free from predation. Okay. We make sure that they suffer from no diseases. We give them regular drenches and vaccinations to ensure that they don't contract any sort of diseases. I wouldn't contest any of that, by the way. You're doing that because it's in your economic interest to look after your stock, not because you care about the rights of these animals, otherwise you wouldn't be chopping them up into pieces and selling them to people. I didn't know that they would have been treated like that. You know what I mean? What's the ethical way of killing someone if they don't want to die? Wouldn't it be more humane to leave them be and eat plants? Well, the people dying around the world every day and we can't save them all. Can you draw a picture in it? No, I can't. I'm not an expert on that sort of thing, so I wouldn't be able to save you what a painless death would be other than that if the animal died instantly, you would assume that that was a painless death. But do you think that, even the best way, it's cruel to rob someone of their life? No, it's that you keep using someone I don't accept your premise. No, it's that you keep using someone I don't accept your premise. We're talking about animals here. They don't feel pain suffer, you know? Everything? Everything, everyone. Everyone, animals aren't things. Can you correlate an animal, like a cow, to a human being? Yes. How? Human beings are also animals. I'll give you that for the purpose of this conversation. Biology. Well, let's look at what we have in common with animals. We're both sentient, yeah? Feel pain suffer, want to live, we have families, we... We have will, we have desires. They're not a person, so to think. They're sentient beings. They're having a subjective experience like you, they're someone. They've got a personality, they want to escape pain, they suffer. They're not plants. It's not a person. It doesn't matter if it's not a person. Have you ever seen a cow being milked? It is in pain. When they see the calf being taken from it, it isn't... Anyone who says an animal has not got human emotion... Well, I would say human emotion. What kind of a thing is a human emotion? An animal has got just as much emotion as a human. I have seen tears when they're pulling the calf away from the cow. It's disgusting, a whole lot of it. One is a human being who, you know, has, like, you know, like, a capability of intelligence and stuff. And the other one is pigs don't have capability for intelligence. I mean... But do you think they shouldn't be treated cruelly for some reason? If they ain't someone, who gives a f***? Well, again, I don't... See, I don't accept someone. Yeah, but... I think this is where the premise... Our argument falls down because the premise is different. Well, I'm just saying, you give these animals enough moral value that they shouldn't be treated cruelly for some reason. If they're not someone, who cares? Well, obviously, their consciousness is not at a level where we are in the sense that we can manipulate our environment like, almost completely to suit our needs. Animals don't really have that. I mean, they have it to a degree. I mean, they haven't, like, invent... I mean, it's an instinct. They haven't, like, invented, you know, rockets and stuff. Have you invented a rocket? I mean, no, I haven't, but, you know... The implication that you suggested beforehand that they, so far, deserve some sort of... They deserve rights, per se. A right not to be killed and enslaved and treated as food and property and products. Yeah. Why wouldn't we grant those same rights to animals even if they don't have complex cognition like you do? Only because they're called animals. Seriously. I mean, yeah, we're trying to be funny. Because we know them as animals, then they're just not humans, so they can't have human rights. Do you understand? Do you know we use that to justify what we do to humans as well? We call them animals. Yeah, I know people have done that. I know people have done that in the past, but then animals are actually animals. Again, it doesn't take away. I mean, that was terrible. I genuinely had no idea that that happened to beef before I got the beef. Cows. You know what I mean? What a cow. Beef comes from a cow. You're just separating the two. Yeah, but, you know, I mean... I didn't know. If we just recognise that animals have the ability to suffer and want to live and feel pain and value their families, we don't necessarily have to grant them all these amazing things, but at least leave them alone and respect them based on that. I could get with that. The other side of that would be, give me something to replace that lifestyle. Do you understand? A practical issue. Yeah. Don't you think you're causing suffering to the plants? We don't hear them scream. We don't see the blood coming out. Plants are living things. If you say that animals abuse plants, you're a plant killer. You're talking about this... What about the plants, yeah? You farmers viciously take out the ground. What about them? Don't you think they suffer from pain when you... Absolutely not. They do. Amar, do you think there's a difference between stabbing a pig in the throat like I showed you and cutting a carrot up for soup? More or less the same. They're the same. You know, a lot of people thinking or believing they are innocent or allowed to do boiling like a soya bean. Oh, okay. Yeah. Do you think they feel pain? Soya beans feel pain? Pain. I'm not sure. Pain. I never talked to a bean. But like even plant-based substances, like your veggies and stuff, they're all still naturally living, breathing organism. Do you think a carrot is the same as kicking a kid in the head? No, but it's... Carrots. I put a carrot on the same plane as a sentient animal is what I'm saying. Yeah. So you think a carrot is the same as a kid or a dog? If I turn into vegan, in my opinion, I'm still making some and stuff. So why turn into certain things? Just eat whatever is there. So that's what you're trying to do. So you just eat whatever is there, right? Plants and animals are the same. It doesn't matter what cruelty you cause to the animals because the plants feel the same amount of pain, yeah? Not the same because we don't know. But in my opinion... We do know. We do know. What's the difference between a lettuce and a human being? Lots of things. Okay. A lettuce is alive. A lettuce is alive. A human is not grown. What is they going to let us is alive? Aren't they the same? Humans and lettuce are the same. They matter the same ethically, don't they? No, they don't. Okay. Do animals and lettuce matter the same ethically? No. Okay. Okay. There you go. They're not sentient. I don't have a central nervous system. How do you know? Do you think stabbing a puppy dog in the throat is the same as cutting up a carrot? How do you know what plants feel? Because they don't have a brain or a central nervous system. Do you accept they're living things? They're living, but they're not sentient. Don't mind slaughtering living plants. Yes, I think that's the argument. Because they don't feel pain. That argument is really good. If you're in hospital and you're paralyzed, what do they call you? A vegetable. No scientist alive believes a tomato is suffering the same way that a rabbit or pig or chicken or dog suffers. Or you. How do you know that, though? Because they can tell with science. There's no nerves. There's no brain. There's no consciousness. So if you're on the side of animals, then why not on the side of plants? Yeah, but they don't have heart. They're not beating. Well, normally, they aren't lying. Well, I ask you the same question. If you're on the side of humans, why aren't you on the side of tomatoes? I am. That sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? Yeah. So you care about tomatoes, do you? Morally. Ethically, do you care about a... I don't use them. Do you care about a vegetable? A sweet potato? No, you don't. So you don't, yeah. Oh, well, we don't care morally about plants because they don't have a brain and nervous system. They can't suffer. Right, so they don't have a brain, no nervous system and they can't suffer. Well, they don't perceive reality. There's no subject. So me and you, we have a subject, a personality, someone inside us, experiencing things. A person. A plant does not have a subject inside of there. They don't have consciousness. They can react to stimuli in the environment like your phone might react when you touch it and they respond. Yeah. But like, they don't, there's no one in there that suffers like in a turkey or in a pig. Right, right, so that's the answer. Yeah. That's a well-good answer. Take this, man. Here, put it, that's all right. Just put it in here. No. And how about this? You know, the animals that you eat actually eat plants, too. So you're causing more plant deaths by eating animals? There we go. So why don't you just make the more ethical choice? I don't think plants feel pain at all. You don't either. Because if I kicked a carrot, you wouldn't care. But if I kicked a puppy, if I kicked a puppy, you would probably punch me in the head. Of course. Yeah. But again, it's also down to my own personal choice. To do what I want to do is what I want to do. Do you get me? I'm not like one of them people that sit here and say, oh, well, you're weird if you don't eat meat or all that. Well, no. It's your choice. It's less of a global challenge and more of a personal preference, isn't it? It's my choice. That's their choice and I'm not going to judge them for their choice, whereas they shouldn't judge me for my choice. OK. So if you want to choose to be vegan for seven years and I want to be, you know, eating meat for seven, eight years of my whole life, I can do. People should do what they want to do. You really believe that? Yeah. I believe if you want to eat an animal, then eat it. There's a victim involved. You know that, yeah? Obviously. Yes, I do. How can that be a personal choice? It's a personal choice to buy the meat and eat the meat. But there's someone else involved there, bro. Personal choice, you know what I mean? It's a personal choice to do lots of things, man, eh? You know? But when there's animals involved, it's like a choice that is cruel, you know? But I'm asking, is the personal choice a moral choice? Not whether it's a personal choice or even though it's not really personal, it's a pig involved getting stabbed for bacon. Do you know what I mean? No, that's just another little thing there. Yeah, I didn't. Added a little thing there. Personal choice. There's a victim involved with this choice. It's a choice. I would say it's a choice. But what if the choice has a victim? Like, I could go up and kill a needed cat, but you would say that's morally wrong. It's a choice. It's my choice. But I'm asking, what's ethical? What's a moral choice to make? So when you talk about choices, right, you can talk about making a choice. I could make a choice right now to shoot that guy in the face with a shotgun, right? That's a choice. Okay. Yeah, so psychopaths that kill and eat people, Jeffrey Dahmer was one of them. His line was included humans. Yeah. Was that okay? Was this personal choice? Kinda. To a degree. Like... I'm taking that degree to that degree. Yeah. So, yeah. I feel like, yeah, people ultimately should be able to make their own choices. You're right. We don't have to when we choose to. You're making a choice. You're choosing to be cruel. Yeah. You're choosing to be cruel. But it's a choice again. And then you're choosing to abuse animals when you don't make the vegan choice. So you're saying everyone has to make that choice? Yes. Conscious people who pay for animals to be abused, they're a conscious animal abuser. There's no way around that. What would you prefer me to do? Go out to a game reserve and kill my own meat? I prefer you just didn't kill animals if it wasn't 100% necessary in any context. I still like chicken and stuff. I mean, KFC is pretty nice. I like my Sunday roast. Yeah? I used to as well, yeah? Yeah. Yeah, I like having a bacon, you eat meat. Yeah. I like meat. Yeah. Why? Because it's tasty. Yeah. Oh, I like having meat. I enjoy that. I like the flavour. Like the fat in the pan. Yeah. It's been fried. Crispy in that egg. Yeah. What do you mean by you like eating meat? I mean, I like the taste of it. You like the taste. So taste is a pleasure response or it's a sensory, you know. So it's sensory. Yeah. Because it tastes good. Yeah. I'm not much of a foodie. I'd rather be doing eating, but when I have to eat, then yeah, meat is good. Yeah. Tastes good. So like, obviously it's a little bit more indirect, but you're deriving pleasure from an animal being killed, yeah? So sensory pleasure. I mean, like people like to smoke, you know. Yeah, but there's no animal getting knifed in the throat for a cigarette. Why do you eat steak? Do you care about sentience? No, I love steak. I like steak because I like consciousness. You know, when you brown a steak and a nice crust on it, so you obviously don't care about animals. You like the taste. Yeah. I would just ask you a question. Do you think like, because you get pleasure out of something, does that morally justify like an act of cruelty, like cutting an animal's head off? Um, like I could get pleasure from doing a lot of horrific things. That's true. That's true. Yeah. But I like to. Yeah. I like to as well. Yeah. I like to eat steak and burgers as well, but I don't know, you know what I mean, because I think it's wrong to rob someone of their life for a five-minute meal when I can eat plants now. But let's just say you didn't like the taste of the vegan cheeses. Would you continue to pay for this to happen? Would they, would they still buy cheese? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So even though this happens to cows, they get raped, they get killed, they have their children stolen. You'd say the taste of cheese outweighs this suffering and death. Do you think the sensory pleasure justifies what we do to animals for food? Just because you get pleasure out of an action, trauma, violence. Do you think that pleasure justifies that cruelty, trauma or violence? No. Okay. No? So you're using it taste-good as an excuse. You enjoy the taste. So what do you think is more important, like your taste or an animal's life? Animal's life, definitely. Because there's people out there that enjoy sex, but that doesn't mean that they can go out and just rape whoever they want, because they think, you've got to think of the victim. So when you, like I might really say, I think that the animal's rights matter more than me having that pleasure. No. I agree. Definitely. Like, oh, I can't, like, I just can't really argue again. I know. I make it so that you can't argue again. Don't you worry. I make a really solid, really solid argument for animal rights. A human being's been eating meat for thousands of years. And the we human being has been eating animal, hunting, you know, started as a hunter-gatherer. That is what's been going on for 8,000 years. We've been drinking milk. But if you think about it, people have been killing animals and stuff for as long as you can remember. Do you know what I mean? I mean, they've been doing it for thousands and thousands of years. You have to look at nature. You have to look at the human being. You have to look at the last 200,000 years and then and how we've evolved and what we've become. We've always done it. Yeah, but we've always done horrific things to each other throughout history. I mean, like, humans have been eating me, you know, for centuries. Thousands of years. Probably it might be in the millions, I'm not sure, but like scavenging and trying to survive eating what we can. Yeah, of course. Do you think it's justified because we've been doing it for a long time? Yes, of course. It's justified. So if we do anything for a long time then it becomes justified. It's part of nature. So we've been doing horrible things to each other for the same amount of time, haven't we? Yes. But we can change, can't we? Do you think that just because something's been happening for a long time, that that makes it ethical? No, I don't think that. But you're just saying it's been normalized because it's been happening for so long. So like, with vikings and stuff, they get me to keep themselves ready and active for when they're like fighting in wars and stuff. Do you think that because we've done something traditionally, that it's morally justified? Not always. For instance, we in this society have had institutional racism for a very long time. We've always done it. But we have found a way to not do it. Okay. So, well, how does that justify, how does we always have done it, justify animal cruelty and abuse and killing, but not justify racism? This day and age, don't look 100,000 years ago when we had to do it to survive. This day and age, it's unnecessary for innocent beings inside of a gas chamber or into a slaughterhouse. So humans have actually their teeth have developed over like years. Okay. So, they've actually developed a meat. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. In what way? Our teeth? Let me show me your teeth. Okay. We've developed, we've grown canine teeth. Canine teeth. Show me yours. I mean, why do you have those teeth providing into apples? I don't know. It's an incisor, man. It's for cutting. It's actually a canine. If we weren't like omnivores, we wouldn't have these like, sharp teeth for your sharp teeth. Don't point at your teeth. They're very blunt and flat and you have molars and you grind your jaw side to side for the chewing motion for like, grazing on plant products. You have the tiniest canines I've ever seen in my life. Yeah, for cutting meat. These are incisors. It's a canine. Do you rip the meat? Who said that? Who told you that? So you got claws? Where's your claws? Where's your claws? Your ancestors were apes, man. And apes ate meat. You think these justify this? Interesting that you think that the reason that meat shouldn't be illegal is because we've evolved into omnivores. I'm not really seeing your biological adaptations to chase animals and consume them. Right, OK. I don't see you as adapted to chasing down animals with your, you know, and your teeth look flat and blunt. I mean, you're pointing to these canines. If you see a proper omnivore, their jaw hinges up and down. Ours goes like this for grinding like a cow. Have you seen a cow eat? Yeah, I have, yeah. Well, they look very flat and blunt like a cow's teeth. Well, that's the molars at the back. But the canines were developed to chew meat, to bite meat. It's unnecessary to eat meat to be healthy. No, but I developed teeth to do that. So why have I developed teeth to do that? Just because you can eat an animal doesn't make it moral to do so, OK? We can process those plants into flesh as well. Actually, we're omnivores. We're able to both eat meat and plants. Just because we're able to do it doesn't mean that we're biologically designed to eat meat and plants. It means that we're opportunistic eaters and we ate what we could today and now that we're, you know, obviously in a civilized society, we don't have to go hunt. You don't have claws. You don't have predatory instincts. You sweat out of your paws like other herbivores. You have flat blunt teeth and pathetic little canines. How do we justify a mass holocaust of animals? And obviously, you think animals feel pain and desire a life without suffering because otherwise you'd be fore-torturing. I mean, lions don't feel guilty for killing deer. It's very, it's not kind. Animals constantly kill each other in very horrible, destructive and inhumane ways. What do you think about Africa and where the lions kill the animals? Even the animals attack each other. Of course they do. You have to behave. They do. But interestingly enough, ants, they also farm insects. You know how a dog will go eat it like wild and it'll go get a rabbit which is meat? So why can't we go and get a cow which is meat? It's for you for meat. Why don't you do that? Well, why can't I? You think it's morally wrong. We as a society believe killing when there's no justification for it is morally wrong. We have plant foods to eat and what we do into cows is unjustified. We don't have a reason to do this to cows. Do you know the Black Widow spider eats her mate after they've mated? Yes. Should we copy that behaviour? No, because I don't see how that's going to help anything. Why are you using ants behaviour as a justification for exploiting others because you're using well you know ants they actually exploit insects well you know Black Widow spiders eat their mate afterwards you know lions eat their cubs how does that justify our abuse and exploitation of animals in a modern civilised society when we have moral agency and we don't have a justification? Lions are in a survival situation are you? No, we could live off not eating meat. I could probably live off not eating meat. It's a different situation to you. That's why I talked about your moral framework not lions. Did you see what you did there? Yeah, you went and put into a lion's morality to us. We are morally culpable are held morally culpable for our actions with our conscience and with laws. You know that lions eat people? No. Yeah, they do. Lions have been known to hunt down people I'm just saying I'm just saying I'm just asking what's ethical not what's cannibalism. I'm talking about ethics. Controversial ethics. If you've seen video of lions eating zebras while the zebra is still alive that's pretty disgusting that's not humane at all. Of course not it's horrible and I wouldn't do that. That happens in nature every day. Yeah, but that's an appeal to nature it's a fallacious reasoning there's horrible rape happens in nature murder happens in nature you can't use that reasoning for a civil society it's not a civil society reasoning for a civilised society but we don't attack each other do we? We don't attack each other some people do but we think that's unethical don't we? Yeah it's wrong it's so wrong I mean the words are so wrong so we don't we just try not to behave like animals yeah yeah yeah we're civilised but we contradict nature all the time you contradict nature all the time I contradict nature all the time sure if we follow nature we're killing each other we're turning into vicious tribes people no that's actually very natural to murder each other for murder no human beings killed their children we put them in jail for murder lions eat their cubs all the time okay now if we were okay doing what a lion does why can't we eat our own children murder them because we don't want to live in a lion like society well there you go answered my question for me you actually made my point for me we don't want to live in a lion like society so why go why choose one thing a lion does which is eat a zebra to justify what we do to animals why do we choose that we don't copy everything else they do why don't you say you should be vegan and stop paying for animal abuse because I don't want to be a vegan so you want to pay for animal abuse veganism is very unhealthy very extremist I don't think anybody that that just at vegetables alone would have a healthy lifestyle can't survive without meat we need we need meat to survive yeah we need meat you know for our diets you can't expect to feed a human body with a plant to perform on the level we meant we were supposed to function I completely oppose that with scientific data you know you know you have mountains of science supporting plant-based diets and it's just the evidence isn't on your team with this I don't see how I can sustain myself on a solely plant-based diet because you can't see yourself how you can sustain yourself does that mean you can't I don't know because I haven't tried it so I'm not going to say no yet but I mean I'm sure you're very healthy but you know we're led to believe from various reports that you will read that you will need to take supplements at some stage to make up for the proteins or the fats or the things that perhaps we've been used to throughout our life I have to cut you off there where do you think protein originally comes from the thing is meat and protein is a very strong and reliable source of nutrients you you disagree reliable source I think you know you can obviously eat plant-based 100% and be completely healthy and all protein originally comes from plants you would have been taught that yeah do you think you can get protein by eating plants that's what I would just ask you I yeah no yes you can get vitamins and protein from plants I know that so they turn the plants into their flesh and we go and shoot them in the head and eat their flesh and this is a reliable source of protein this is why we do it second-hand protein by the way Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics is one of the largest nutrition group of professionals on earth about 100,000 of them collectively and it was a peer-reviewed paper saying that vegan diets are healthy for all stages of life including athletes infancy pregnant women what do you think about that science well well well the thing is that there are studies which I like claim that vegan like good for a child or for you know a newborn you know it needs a bit of meat a bit of everything I haven't seen any of those studies peer-reviewed at all I mean I've seen articles but I've never seen any peer-reviewed studies I mean like you should like there like you know peer-reviewed studies know you know the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics isn't a vegan organization they're a group of non-vegan probably predominantly non-vegan you know doctors and dietetics and nutritionists so what I'm saying is they had 117 studies backing their statement we can't survive we can't survive without meat we can't really we need we need the red we need the blood we need all the different vitamins we need all iron how long do you think I've been vegan how long do you think I've been a year should be dead by then no I'm seven years vegan right that's fine I've got friends that are vegan I enjoy my meat I've been brought up with it my life so was I that's I'm used to that that's kind of how I've been raised around me and eating so was I I can't so was I I think a video's gonna make me stop eating it it's like I've already done it I don't know if it's just a Scottish thing we've brought up on meat and stuff like that so was I I know what you're saying and it's all I'm half Scottish I know but I'm not just talking about Scottish I'm talking about all over the world we all raised on meat we're all raised on meat we taught you that dead animals are food I think it's just in our culture kind of and it's in a lot of cultures you know indoctrination isn't it yeah we've been taught that it's cows are food especially in Western society you're taught as a child you get your food from the shops there's no explanation it's no investigation when you're little your parents serve you a plate of something it's like this is food this is what we're having for dinner tonight they don't show you this do they no they probably haven't seen it themselves they probably haven't a lot of I think part of the reason why you get served that too is people don't not everyone knows this goes on you've been conditioned haven't you yeah that's true actually yeah I agree with that I agree with that you've been taught something like I was you've been conditioned you know what conditioning is conditioning is where like you've been taught that these animals are food yeah that's all you see a chicken like he wouldn't even be able to like determine the animal from the chicken to the food from the chicken because they're called the same thing aren't they but she used to absolutely love me she used to eat me me too me too hello who's the first one to give her meat my mum raised me to eat me too my mum's a vegan now though took her a couple of years but she's come around she's the first one to give me meat and she goes Joey you know now that I know what I know I'm so sorry because I didn't know she wasn't exposed to it you weren't exposed to it your parents probably did it not to make you feel guilty about it because that's the way we've ever known but now you know now you know what goes on to animals so you're conscious of it now yes yeah I'm conscious of it and I'm not saying that you're a bad person you know you've just been brought up into dairy farming culture okay so I think that you don't think what you're doing is morally wrong but from the cow's point of view they don't want to be slaughtered do they in Yulin China they have dog farms in Korea they have dog farms do you think that's ethically wrong it's their culture you can't really judge them though I'm just saying like killing animals is cultural but that doesn't mean it's ethical yeah I agree but not everyone's the same if you agree with me then that means that you should be vegan everyone's got a day yeah but it's written come on everyone's got a day it's better okay now written at some time they've got a day like I could shoot someone in the head and they don't feel a thing is that okay it's written it was written it makes it okay because they're going to die it's life you know it's a circle of life food change I feel like in a way like there was kind of a cycle of life I cycle of life the circle of life yes don't you it's what it's death it's murder it's not life death is a part of life man yeah natural death not enslaving and killing and torturing and raping that's not life that's f***ing evil millions of things die every day so millions of humans die every day should we go murder people yeah people do get killed do you think it's morally justified to kill someone no you're arguing for murder because people die do you know where the circle of life come from that phrase um it was the Lion King but there's probably something before it I'm sure no no no it came from the Lion King so you're actually using the Lion King as a scientific source here no where in biology it talks about the circle of life animals got a day plants got a day human beings got a day everyone's got a day doesn't mean we have to murder we don't have to murder but if it's written to die so you can choose not to murder in a murder way or a certain way then it's written you know car crush do you think it's a murder it's a car fall is it a personal fault accidents this is the food chain you know the spider eats the fly the cat eats the mouse you know a tiger would eat us if we got in its way the big fish is little fish even in the wild in the sea big fish eat big fish well what if we brought into a lore to protect chickens right what if we brought a lore into because that's what we choose to do yeah but I'm saying it's not a moral choice because it's part of the food chain the food chain oh my god bro I'm sorry I don't mean to be disrespectful I'm not doing it being disrespectful but you are not part of the food chain because we have a food chain because we have a pecking order because we have a diet because we have the ability does a food chain mean moral does a food chain mean ethical well what are you why are you the barobit or a morality I'm asking you what the moral difference is between a pig and a three year old and you can't answer it but I'm asking you why you believe you can set that moral compass where you want it to set why I can set a moral compass because you adhere to your own moral system but we are building so you adhere to a moral system where you don't think human beings should be stabbed but you don't adhere to that same moral system you have a double standard for pigs for the fucking food chain yeah the food chain the food chain are you part of the food chain yeah we're the top you're the top we're the top of the food chain so if you go in the ocean with a shark you're gonna get mold man we're an apex predator we're not predators you're gonna tell a shark to stay in seaweed we're not apex predators bro we buy our meat from the supermarket packed in a little package people are disconnected from this you're gonna tell a shark to stay in seaweed what animals do in nature is what animals do in nature we don't justify our actions from the actions of animals do we we don't dictate our morality from the actions of a lion otherwise we'd be killing each other raping each other would have no morality moral agents as human beings alright we can make moral decisions you can make a moral decision here's carrot here's me the chain goes me to carrot that's a food chain I think what they're saying is in school they've seen this picture right with humans at the top and all other animals below them and they're saying that that gives us the right like might makes right that gives us the right because they've seen this picture in school to exploit, abuse and kill all animals that are perceived below us in the food chain any animal below us it's then justified to stab and kill for a steak when we have plant foods yeah that's what he's saying isn't it so dogs and elephants and rhinoceroses and lions and you know endangered elephants we can stab those in the throat because food chain though using the food chain argument when you live in a house and buy your food from the supermarket and all you have to do is move your hand to the left to get the soy milk or walk one step over to the chickpeas away from the slashed up murdered animals okay is nonsense here's a food chain for you right here no one got stabbed in the throat I know which food chain I'm participating in when you eat an animal you're actually doing something horrific to that animal I'm not doing that I purchased that from the market I don't support it but I still drink the milk it's not going to change the mind whether they die or not yeah you're consuming a product you're demanding that they do that to cows I'm not demanding yeah you are you're demanding my virtue of your dollar so you understand supply and demand don't you I absolutely do yes so when you pay for animal products animals all the animals go to the slaughterhouse yeah yes absolutely yeah this is where we're at supply and demand you don't understand economics I'm not Jesus I'm a human being human being living a selfish life yeah we're trying to protect the animals from people who are paying for them to be in these places so when you go into the supermarket, the restaurant whatever you buy dairy you buy meat I'm protecting the animals from you because you're paying for them to be in these places and you treat them like an object to eat and to take things from these animals only exist because we mass breed them and selectively breed them these are animals specifically food slaves these ones here they don't exist in the wild piglet wild boar do but not these type of pigs that you're eating I'm saying this is a human manufactured freak show I can agree with that yeah you pay for it that's what I'm saying and how are you not a hypocrite if you claim to be against this but you're eating it you're paying for it you're paying for people to be cruel to animals well you know when you say I'm paying you are I'm buying steak you're paying for animal cruelty production that goes all the way down there you pay people to stab and torture animals I'd rather they didn't but you pay for it so you're contradicting yourself in your own moral framework I'm not contradicting myself in my own moral framework that's completely explain how or not I can explain why not because I'm paying for the steak not for the cruelty when you buy a steak you pay for cruelty there's no escaping that do you care about like the suffering of the animals well yeah okay but I'm not gonna stop causing it yeah yeah but do you see how it's inconsiderate you can't can you it's a solid question let's just say I pay him right now to stab you right he's responsible for stabbing you but he wouldn't have stabbed you unless I paid him okay so when you yeah so yeah he's still stab you we're both responsible yeah because see my daughter my daughter would kill a human before she'd kill an animal but she eats them so she does kill them yeah well but what I'm saying she doesn't kill them she pays for them to be killed exactly yeah once you understand that by consuming these products animals have to be raped enslaved, killed bred into existence the more you then become morally culpable so if we start purchasing these products what happens to these places they go under okay so that's how we change it yeah yeah by virtue of supply and demand our money funds these industries when we remove money from these industries and buy plant milk we boycott the murder yeah and that's when they start to go down they stop breeding cows into existence the numbers decline and these industries they go out of business yeah and it's a lot better for the cows and the livestock the farmers can start making you know plant food products if you stop buying the cheese these animals stop being exploited and killed yeah you got a point there if enough of us boycott I mean dairy industry's already looking a little bit because people are finding alternatives and finding out about this and the alternatives are pretty good you know like the subway let's say subway I buy the plant based meatballs they have to replace those plant based meatballs with new ones yeah if I buy the chicken they have to replace that chicken with new chicken so it comes from somewhere but how do you know didn't just touch anything to do with meat and just touch their meat it doesn't matter because that doesn't support the industry but when you're consuming these products you're pushing the button on these animals you're saying die for me forcing them to die forcing them to live a life of hell you're adding to the problem but when you go vegan you're doing your best kind of thing to eliminate your contribution to it when you pay for animal products you're making a vote yeah yeah abuse those animals for me torture those animals for me chuck them in a gas chamber for me stab them in the throat for me and chop them up for me who's the animal abuser the vegan or the person who pays for this um nobody dies for milk to be created you don't have to kill a cow to get milk otherwise you can't get the milk if you kill them do you know what happens if a cow isn't milked regularly I don't think it's good for you to drink the milk from another species when we wean when we're a child don't we we wean when we're young so why do we still drink breast milk from another mother well do you drink dairy dairy products are breast milk from a pregnant cow for babies yeah why are they pregnant to begin with no who did that nature do you think the dairy industry relies on nature you know what I mean by you know that well I know what you're saying and I'm jumping one step ahead of you because we forcibly impregnate them cows have to be pregnant to produce milk I didn't know that I know I feel like the dairy industry is one of the most violent industries on earth because they here in the UK they take the the calves away and they kill the male calves on the farm they just shoot them in the head the female calves they grow up for about a year and then they get forcibly impregnated and have their calves taken after four or five years they go to the slaughterhouse get turned into beef and leather I mean it's a horrible industry I don't think taking children away from mothers is okay just so we can have cheese when we can have vegan cheese made of plants is needed this is the dairy industry this is forcible impregnation so artificial insemination well you can call it whatever euphemism you makes you feel more comfortable but if you put human being in this position they hold them down in a cattle crush they don't want this done to them this is going into her rectum okay now she's struggling I would call this rape would you agree this is that now they bear children because dairy cows you know about the dairy industry they have to have a calf to produce milk yeah they take the calves away because they don't want the calves drinking the milk because it's a product yeah do you think it's wrong to say that if cows are being impregnated against their will do you think that's wrong to call that rape no I don't think it's wrong to call it rape because it is if that was to happen to a person then it would be so I'm saying the act is rape the action is sexual violation yeah the force and the cow to be impregnated yeah my aim is to stop the rape the torture the kidnap and the killing so what do you think happens to the dairy cows when they can't produce milk anymore so what do you do with your dairy cows when they're finished producing for you they all get murdered eventually for beef but the dairy industry support the beef industry I don't know if you have followed your cows to the slaughterhouse have you you have followed your cows to the slaughterhouse your parents cows your parent has a farm your parents have a farm have you followed them animals to the slaughterhouse before we've seen the slaughterhouse before have you followed the animals in there and watched them die that's what I'm asking I've seen footage of it but not this this is a dairy cow they slaughter her because she just doesn't produce milk anymore so why would they keep her she's not profitable this is what I mean this is how we view animals as a resource but all dairy cows go to the slaughterhouse to be shot and stabbed in the throat and killed and turned into beef and that's what I'm saying milk is murder it stops saying murder it's not murder why not it's killing an animal have you read the dictionary and I'm saying that the act of shooting a cow in the skull and slashing their throat open is murder yes it is because if that's happened to anybody else in the world then the other person would go down for years for it what happens to people when they finish their names they die naturally shocking cows do your cows die naturally yeah you believe that the statement is true it's like milk is murder you're taking away you're impregnating cows over and over again taking the cows away from killing the cows 9s out of 10 so in that sense it is yeah and it's just unnecessary and if you go down in the supermarket aisle there's about 20 different plant milks you haven't come up with a very good justification and a reason why milk isn't murder you can say it's not but it is but then if the whole country went vegan even over the next 10 years yeah what would be the problem with that you would have a lot more people who haven't got a livelihood being in a CP would go out of jobs and that's another topic what's worse obviously so this is the livelihood argument this is why I wanted to stop you there before I wasn't trying to be rude but I've heard this so many times you know when they abolish slavery what would happen to the slave owners that we're getting them to pick the cotton that was their livelihood yep they had to pay away do you think that justifies slavery no so why does that in the animal context will there be new opportunities for jobs and I don't think that animal cruelty I don't think that a job should justify what we do to animals I think animals' lives and their freedom and their well-being is more important than someone making a job that they can get another one of yeah true yeah that's not an argument dude that's not an ethical argument obviously like if we make a shift we're going to be creating other jobs at the same time with time-based innovations yeah exactly it's not going to be destroying our environment and murdering and exploiting and subjugating the innocent beings which is our focus yes I don't support the practice of this kind of practice but I support the farmer that needs a job that needs a you know you support the oppressor not the victim I support the victim you support the oppressor I mean do we have enough money to give them to find a different job I mean they can they can find another job these animals can't find another life they've been enslaved and murdered who do you care more about who's suffering matters more here the problem is also look at the farmer right I mean look at this guy do you like this guy no not really why not he needs a job his job is to rape and kill animals my job is to stop people abusing animals alright now other people can work in innovating you know plant food production that's their job my job is to stop you from abusing these animals but my husband has to work there for one second you're paying for to leave to pay our bills to pay our rent your money other meat eaters money are causing these slaughterhouses to exist ok now if everyone put their money into different products he'd have a job somewhere else yeah and you answer me the question of how many animals die to protect your crops that you eat do you know how much insect the animal have to get killed to make way for the plant to grow and stuff billions of insects get killed and murdered brutally every year and the preparation of vegan food and in preparation of bread because that's kind of what you're doing you're going to go do you know how many animals are killed for your crops yeah I do I do I'm a wedge do you know I do know it's a lot it's a lot more if you're eating animals if you say so then because pigs are eating grain chickens are eating grain chickens are eating soy chickens are eating soy just animal agriculture alone causes more suffering and murder than any other industry on earth by far just incalculable suffering it's 74 billion land animals it's an FAO start and one to three trillion marine animals every year plus all of the animals and insects that die in the crops used to feed the animals now 83% of all farmland is used for animal agriculture this is a study by Oxford University Joseph Poor comparing accidental crop deaths with this slavery these all these animals you know where they go all these sound mothers these are mothers here they all go to a gas chamber do you ever see these people marching down the bread aisle do you no they don't you know why because they eat bread so they have regrets we've got some root vegetables this is where vegans get their food from crops and pierce Morgan likes to think there's no different between eating from here and eating from in there wow nice logic pierce most of the crops are fed to animals in animal agriculture 90% of the soy most of the majority of cropland is fed to animals in animal agriculture like cow eating another car excuse me they eat hay they eat grasses they eat grain pigs eat grain 90% of the pigs in the UK factory farms so all of those crops are going to animals you're responsible for all of those crops so when you eat a piece of chicken it's magnitudes more crops than just eating the grain so I don't know what you're trying to say like I eat 2 to 3000 4,000 calories a day it's just plants okay it's what these animals are being fed anyway but magnitudes more if you're feeding it to the animals and then eating the flesh I'm saying it's a much more efficient use of food if we just eat the food directly then feed it to 70 billion animals and I don't know how you could disagree with that mathematically it's just easy simple things now you can reduce this farmland use by 75% by adopting a vegan lifestyle so that is a lot of insect harm crop deaths pesticide use all of that stuff species extinction as well animal agriculture from wiping out all this land forest land and all that obviously we can't live in a way that causes suffering and death you know what I mean like I'm not saying I don't cause any harm by existing that's not what I'm asking you to do either I'm saying why do we still enslave on top of that and kill on top of that when we don't need to we could try to at least eliminate the exploitation and murder of animals as far as practically possible yes what I am saying is that a vegan's individual decision will sometimes cause death but overall what they want death takes forever you're sort of saying that we hold a position that we don't generally so you would say that we want to you know not kill no matter what like all death has to be avoided no matter what the context or what the the reason for it now I would say that most rational vegans don't hold that position I know when you look at the definition like you could take that definition go this applies to mowing the lawn that's killing vegans are hypocrites right in order to be a hypocrite you'd have to you'd have to say my position is that I'm against death in every single category no matter the context now when it comes to industry deaths this is a big category industry death so I would say that using the argument ok plant foods probably kills more insects the fact that we crops we eat plants and those plants are protected with pesticides sprayed with crops and they harvest the field sometimes are they might die in the crop production if you set a moral standard let me put it to you like this if we set a standard way we can't cause any deaths in industry that would just lead to some ridiculous absurd conclusions so we want to have a logically consistent moral system that doesn't lead to ridiculous absurd conclusions like I have to walk around in a hessian bag live in a jungle you can't practically like possible deaths by living because civilization itself causes this big category of industry death now I'll show you why we don't have a double standard here animals die in crop deaths and on road accidents and in construction human beings die in road accidents on farms and in construction that doesn't make us a murderer doesn't make us a murderer to support transport but why would I hold some out there standard for insects when I causing people to die yeah yeah sure no yeah I get that that's a good point like I don't have a double standard there now I would ask you would you support a massive holocaust of people so you can have a cheeseburger no of course not so choosing a vegan burger over a chicken burger is so easy like why don't we do that I would argue that it's not a big ask it's a small lifestyle change and I think it's a very reasonable philosophy and it's a logical one I mean it's here's a bunch of animals being tortured and killed for like something like a burger all you have to do is go into the supermarket and make a different choice and you've eliminated not all the suffering in your life you haven't eliminated all the suffering but you've eliminated this grotesque unjustifiable needless amount of suffering on top of the suffering we already cause for a general amount of wellbeing