 Okay, welcome everybody to today's webinar for the Open Education Special Interest Group and we have a conversation with the lovely Helen Beatham about the Open COVID-4 Education Pledge which I'm going to pass over now to my equally lovely colleague Theresa and she will kick things off for us. Thanks very much. Thanks, that's wonderful. Thank you for a lovely introduction too. And I'm delighted to have Helen joining us because this I think is the most exciting idea, inspired idea that has come forward recently. And it is very much of the moment. We're all living through a pandemic as you probably don't need to be reminded. But what can we do? The first thing that happened to us all and I'm sure we're all in the same boat on this one is we lost of agency. What we couldn't understand is what we could do for the best. And I think Helen has come forward with a wonderful idea that will help us to get our thoughts together. I know some of you have already signed the pledge and we'll find out more about it in just a few minutes. So very quickly before we let Helen get started, just a reminder of how to get your audio and video working. We really hope you're going to join in and this will be a conversation. So feel free to do that. And I will make sure that everybody has access to their mics so that you can do that. There will be some polls as well as we go along, which I hope I'll remember how to set up and we'll try that as we go along. So quick word about who we are. So the Open Education Special Interest Group, this is our mission here. And as you can see, we are very much seeking to remove barriers to education. And anything that has us do that, including the pledge, is very much in our remit. We want to support, develop, sustain and influence policy in Open Education and in education in general. And today's session really picks up from one of the discussions that we've had earlier within the SIG, which was a discussion around values. And this little slide comes from that, which was back in 2017, we had a really positive engagement as a result of that discussion. And we're picking up from there and moving on. So I wanted just to remind ourselves of the discussion that we had there. And you will still be able to find those hashtags, I think, around in cyberspace. So we're going to move on now to Helen, an introduction to Helen. What I'm really, really pleased about is Helen has such a lot of expertise. And we really need to take a lead from Helen and the conversation she's been having and find out where she feels we could, where we could, as a community, support and develop Open Education at this particular moment in time. So Helen, I'm going to pass over to you. Thank you, Theresa. Can I check? You can hear me OK? Yes, all good. Thank you. Yeah. Well, thank you for that lovely introduction. But in all honesty, the only reason I'm here, this side, is because I'm not there doing the doing. I have got this position slightly to the side of the of the Alts kind of on the ground community, the grassroots community, which for if nothing else has given me this a little bit of space, hopefully to do something that can just amplify and network all the amazing work that's already going on with people in this community. And very much what the pledge is about is not doing anything new, starting from these values that we all share and hold dear. And just seeing if in this particular moment, there are ways we could enhance, promote those values and reach out perhaps to people for whom they haven't seemed like the basis of their practice until now, but hopefully it might start to. So this I'm absolutely delighted that all to the people hosting the pledge and Maron, Martin and Fiona's office have done amazing work to make it possible. So I just want to make sure that that they get fully, fully acknowledged. So before we go any further, Teresa mentioned that some people have signed the pledge. This is in no way to to name and shame, because in some ways the difficulties people might have in signing something like this should be part of our conversation. I really want to be able to that. But I thought it would be interesting just to know from the beginning who or their organisation or you as an individual have signed the pledge at this moment in time. Teresa, do you have the problem at all? Yeah, that's what I was just looking for. So I think we're going to go through the chat at the moment. Brilliant. OK, that's cool. So if we can pop a yes or no into the chat, that would be really helpful. And try and get an idea. And the I'll put the link in the chat as well to that pledge to remind people what it actually means. And I think the point of doing this, particularly anonymously, which was the hope is really just to raise the question as to why it might be a thing that you've had signed or, you know, why it might be a conversation you've had and decided not to sign, because I've had conversations with people in organisations that have chosen not to sign it. I'm hoping and they've said that the conversation they had around sign it did move things on a little way. So I guess that's just a way to sign a signal that. You know, a pledge is a very lightweight thing, really. It's it's a lever for real action. And what I'm hoping to get from this is knowing how engaged you all are at the real grassroots of this is what that leverage in action might look like rather than promoting, you know, a little badge to wear or flag to wave, which there's a real danger something like this could be. So please continue to share, you know, why you have signed it, you know, what that process was like. I've got one more. Hole for us. And again, chat window and if we're doing it in the chat window, of course, then I expect other to be the dominant out. But given we haven't got long together and I really want to respect all of our lunch breaks and all of our time at the end of the week. Would you like to move forward in this time that we've got together? What would you like to hear more about? I've made some suggestions and use a number as a as a short hand if you want to or just say a little bit in the chat window about what you hope to get out of the next 30 minutes or so. So one of the things that's coming up in the chat window is that adding the logo is the key conversation. And that's something that's really come up from the people who've signed so far that signing as an individual is fantastic. And it gives you that kind of connection to a wider community. Arguing for your logo to be included is a whole other conversation. And as Catherine said, she had to go through that process in order to allow the logo to be used. And Scott's saying that's a conversation to be had. And I agree that is a conversation that can be can be difficult to have. And it's one reason why we thought quite carefully about having that step in there as a way of slightly forcing the issue, I guess, within organizations. And what organization means my imagination at the beginning of this was that would be something like a department or a service team. But it might be a whole institution, a whole university. And we haven't we haven't got to that point with any UK universities yet, although we do have some universities overseas that have signed up with their whole organizations behind it, which is incredible. The the logo just as in sort of corporate branding and everything else tends to have a whole series of barriers and wraps around it. So I can understand why people would feel that that's not as straightforward as it might seem and certainly at the practitioner level. It's it's a much easier thing to do. It's been good to see open source companies signing up some open source companies, and it's also good to see some publishing educational publishing companies, research publishing, for example, signing the pledge, I think from the point of view of if we look to Edinburgh University and their work with open education and the work that Lorna Campbell does, we can see the reputational enhancement that has come as a result of going open. So I think there are many, many powerful reasons why having that conversation can be pushed forward. Tereza and Liz, I really appreciate what you're saying there. And hopefully this this conversation we have now can really tease out that tension between not doing things just because they're a token, but also making them easy to do. So I've put back the slide with the actual pledge on. I'm getting the idea that people quite liked number three. So Tereza, maybe we could just hide those. So the pledge was deliberately quite lightweight and designed to be something people could step into as in stepping into the open community rather than carrying with it a whole load of other values that as open educators ourselves, we might subscribe to as well. It's a very lightweight kind of piece of piece of promise. And so Liz, I can totally see why that might seem that might make it less valuable to some people who've been doing educational practice for many, many years. I really hope, though, that it can also have value to people who are a long way on the thing along the process. So people want to talk about things to do together. I want to make this a really open discussion. I've got some things to say about each of the four things that are on here. But what I thought I'd do is go through where we're up to with the pledge a little bit with a few slides. I'm really happy to skip that if everybody feels that they are totally understand what it's about and where it's come from. So maybe you could just indicate with a with a smiley or a raised hand if you think I should go back to the beginning a little bit before we move forward again together. I think for the purposes of the recording, it would be really helpful to have that just a quick summary, because not everybody's been able to make it on a Friday lunchtime. I think if you don't mind telling. Of course I do. So some of you may know that there is an open Covid pledge and this was developed for the medicine and health care community and is actually hosted by Creative Commons on this website that I've put up here. And they've put quite a lot of a lot of results into this as it's really taken off. So they've they've got part of the site, which is about making the pledge, which we also have, but then they've got the things that organisations are doing in support and they've got this kind of featured IP part where they look at the kinds of things that are being released under the pledge and how they're being and what value they're having in tackling the Covid crisis. So I guess the the things I took from that seeing how effective it was being was that having a common goal, which we do at the moment in tackling the Covid crisis, you know, it's kind of brought everyone together to understanding this crisis facing humanity. And in that kind of situation, open makes a huge amount of sense. It allows collaboration to happen more quickly. People can see what's already going on and can can fill in their piece, they can play to their strengths. And I guess in those kind of convivial networks, new information can share incredibly rapidly. So there was a point about the moment that made open more effective as an approach to doing science, healthcare, public health, medicine. And what that meant was that new people were seeing the case for open that perhaps hadn't seen it before. And some of that is kind of a very welcome moral pressure. You know, I think knowledge, valuable knowledge that can save lives should not be used for commercial gain. That seems to be a value that everyone can kind of agree on at least at its most basic level at a time when people are suffering and dying from a common human disease. And I guess the other thing is that as the fallout from COVID has become clearer in every sector, including education, it's a moment when real change is suddenly possible. Now, those of us who've been around open education will be wary of the clarion calls about disruptive and transformational change that can mean many things. But there is no doubt the moment for change is here and we could take it in a whole number of different directions. And as the open community, I guess we want that moment, that pivot to be an open pivot, not just an online pivot. We want to pivot to new ways of imagining education is possible rather than simply signing up for some of the more disruptive technologies that have come to the fore at this time. And I suppose for me part of that is noticing that in every sphere where I'm active, that sense of shared humanity and care for each other is coming to the fore in ways that perhaps it wasn't before. And so that discourse about care, which the open community has been having for many years, is a little bit more, is landing a little bit more softly. So I noticed all of that going on in that community around the open COVID pledge for medicine healthcare. And then I thought and spoke to a few people and I spoke to Creative Commons about whether the kinds of things we're learning in education at the present time around the open education kind of pivot, but also around things like how to open campuses safely and the kinds of rebuilding of our organizations that we see as necessary, whether they could also be shared under this same pledge. And their view and to some extent, mine was that actually open education community is different, the open education different because for example, we've been doing open in lots of different ways for many years. It means different things. There are different actors here. There's already a huge amount of very, very, very valuable organizations, some of which have signed up, many of which have signed up to the pledge, which is great. We already have kind of public values work, the Cape Town Open Declaration, the kind of values work Theresa was talking about. We have conferences and events that promote open. So there was kind of a case for doing open education slightly differently and thinking about maybe a parallel piece needed. One that recognized that there was so much already going on. And I guess for me, there's a risk that this could have or could still be something of a distraction, a kind of new, why plant a new flag? I've got no interest in sort of planting a new flag unless it can actually be a chance to regroup around this particular moment and rethink and wave the flag for education, for open education, but wave it in relation to the challenges that we particularly face now. And I think also, the chance to do things differently. Open science is really well-established, open education is really well-established, but we do things differently. We lean on slightly different parts of the value spectrum around open. We maybe lean more to open practice, more to examining our own practice, perhaps, and the conditions of labor in open practice a little bit less to things like open access publishing, although they're also important. And the other piece for me, I'm gonna shut up. This is really, this is the last thing I want to say really, the other piece for me, I think was elevating the discussion about public education in the same way the discussion about public health has been elevated. So the UNESCO put out this great report round about May, and I'll put the link in the chat window called Education of Post-COVID World, where they explicitly make that link between public health and public education, by which they mean publicly funded democratic forms of education, publicly funded democratic forms of healthcare. We are only safe when everyone is safe, but this is what the virus has shown us, and we only flourish when everybody flourishes. And I think that last piece, those of us who care about democratic forms of education would want to assert alongside the assertion about how long it is to keep private knowledge, private, when people's lives are at risk, we would say, wouldn't we? It's also wrong to keep know-how for closed business models, when people's life chances are at risk, when people's life chances are also saved lives and also create forms of life opportunity. So it was kind of explicitly making that link between health and education as both needing at this time, ways of recognizing the value of open and the importance of public and democratic forms. And sadly, in recent months in the UK at least, the two have been slightly counterposed to each other. So opening up schools and universities and colleges has been seen as a good, but it's been seen as a good that is a distinction to the good of keeping everybody safe. And that, it seems to me, is problematic. We need to explain why actually keeping everybody safe and helping everybody to achieve what they can in life are actually in the long-term, one and the same thing. And it's about doing education away that respects people's health and wellbeing and safety. And it's about keeping people safe in ways that allow them still to aspire and reach as best they can be. So I would say, I was trying to kind of link those two together and other people are as well. So, yeah, this is the kind of the two strands that came together into creating the pledge and since creating the pledge, lots of great and amazing things have happened in terms of people signing it, but they haven't quite been the people who I expected to sign it. So what I'd really love to do when we've got left is to ask this community really to help me explore what we might do next, what we might do differently. If this is a thing worth putting energy into as a community, if it had this moment, you know, I'm not attached to it being a particular thing. And so it will be great to, to first of all just have any thoughts and feedback on that and then maybe to move into those, these four areas that I thought we could look at focusing particularly on number three, things we might do together. I'm gonna be quiet for a minute and invite any comments and feedback. Thanks so much, Helen. Let's, again, this is quite a, the knowledge that you're sharing with us is quite deep and takes a bit of picking through and thinking about and we're all coming at it from different places. So I want to give people time to breathe and digest and think and there've been some links shared in the chat to give people an idea of the sort of things that have happened in the past, but I love the way that you connected education into this conversation because as you say, people's life chances are already being hugely impacted. Obviously, the first priority is to still be alive and it's very important that we're, from a medical point of view that we're doing everything we can there, but we also want quality of life and it's very important that we join these conversations together. Good to see lots of companies and actors actually getting involved. But one of the things that I felt, having felt a little bit sort of anxious about, well, who do I contact? Who do I encourage once I've signed it myself? How do I influence my community and things? That's kind of taken a while for me to process and even just last night, oh, I haven't contacted so and so and things gradually appear. So yeah, I think it's important that we sort of think it through and find these communities that we can reach out to. And one of them that I've reached out to today has been the open alliance, open recognition alliance. And I hope they will think about this too. Please feel free to pop into the chat any of your reflections and thoughts while we just take all of this on board and start to think about why the pledge is relevant and how it is to our own contexts. Thanks so much. I mean, my next slide actually did a little bit to answer Liz's really important question. So if it's okay, I will just allude to this issue about getting people involved. So what did I expect? Okay, I expected more of the grassroots conversation. So I've put in there who's involved. There's individuals and organizations and we've kind of touched on what it might mean to be able to upload your organization's logo and what kind of conversations that would entail. And I guess for me, that was what I imagined being the work of this, as far as it was doing in the work on its own that people who wanted to sign up to it would be having those quite difficult conversations within their own organization about why, for example, our fantastic videos about supporting learners online might be, should be openly available. But also how what we're learning from student panels and staff panels and internal surveys about our response, the choices we've made around how to reopen or how to blend learning, what we've learned should be publicly available because there will be organizations that are really well resourced. We know universities that are running their own testing labs. We know universities that are, well, like Edinburgh that's been mentioned that have an incredible back catalog of resources that they're supporting their staff to work through and use. And we know there's lots of organizations around the world that simply lack those resources and would hugely benefit from sharing. So I guess I was imagining more of those internal conversations with organizations that are generating know-how in the moment about how to respond. What happened instead, or as well, but a large thing that happened that I didn't anticipate was lots and lots of people with that open hat on and in their organizational mission and name wanted to sign and wanted to get involved. And that creates a different opportunity, which is the pledge might be something that allows a little bit more cooperation and a little bit more boundary shifting between some of those networks and some of those organizational activities, if you like, in this moment of COVID. And of course it's not going to be the only one. There's lots and lots of them, but it might just be something that helps for that to happen. But I think those two are different. So the thing about helping organizations to collaborate more in this moment that already are committed to open is a really different project to helping individuals in their own setting have those difficult conversations about open. And I certainly imagined the second and I didn't really imagine the first. So I hope that that was helpful. But really useful to hear from people who are in this room really, how you think you could be involved or other organizations that have signed up might be asked to do specific things. At the minute we say just sign the pledge, upload the logo, this is the conversation. And then maybe write a blog post and join the discussion. Are there other things that we should, could, might be asking people to do at the moment they sign up, which is going to be the moment when they have most openness. Is there a kind of format we could suggest for an internal conversation, for example, that might help people take that really difficult step from being personally committed to asking their colleagues and asking their organization what they think about it. Any thoughts? It's good to see some interesting comments coming through on the chat. So, yes, we'll pick up on the chat and come back there. My personal feeling was when I've signed this pledge, is there some sort of visual that I can use on my website or whatever to show that I support the pledge, just to raise the visibility. And I think you did find a way forward on that, which would be great. You've also set up a JISC mail list, which I think is a useful way of extending the conversation and asking the questions. But I think it's your point on curation, which really interests me, because certainly as an open ed SIG, we'd be very happy to support curation of the blog posts, for example, and share that message and make sure that it then becomes a page that can be shown, that helps support the argument if people are taking the discussion and further up the chain within their institutions, helps to provide a sort of picture of the conversations that are going on. Let's just flip back. So, Catherine, making things visible, I think that's really important, isn't it? And that's the conversation about education being equitable and equity within these conversations. And maybe that hashtag that we've tried many, many times to get going, which is the Techquity hashtag, to talk about how you make education equitable through the use of technology, which in my personal set of circumstances, I've seen actually move further into the distance, which is very worrying. Scott, is there a reason why so many that have signed aren't here? Well, I think probably the thing to mention there, Helen, is the fact that you've been having these conversations with the organizations just this week. So people may well feel that they're not here because they've already had that conversation and they're sort of mobilizing. Well, it's not, thanks to that. I mean, it's not, yes, I don't want to dismiss that. So I feel that at the minute, as an individual, I'm going into lots and lots of spaces where there are about 10 people who want to have this conversation in that space, lots of them. Now, that's a problem because obviously Alt Open Ed Seag is a particular community and it's wonderful that 10 people from that community want to have this conversation. Then there are kind of more global players who want to talk to other global players about how they can collaborate together. It becomes a series of small rooms rather than a large conversation, which I do think is a problem. And within that, I'm sure there are people who just see something like it's happening at sign-in and then forget about it. I'm absolutely confident that's going on. You know, there's nothing one can do about that other than making, being more actively involved, something that's easy and rewarding to do. And I guess my question is to the people here who seem to care enough to be here in your lunchtime, you know, what do you think makes it more meaningful and pragmatically useful and engaging for people to get involved with? So some of the thoughts that have come up from the conversations I've had would be to have a rolling curation of the hashtag, which is something that's happened really successfully in another network I'm involved with. So different people or organizations might take on curating the hashtag for a week or for a longer period. And that's very easy, kind of fairly easy low-level commitment, but it creates conversations, it gets more followers and it creates kind of a very, very open, democratic kind of way of participating. And then we might think about having more, more kind of time-bound things like collaborative curation and times like weeks and months when we showcase content, but I'm just picking up what Liz is saying, that there's so much going on. I've kind of kept this quite low-key because I felt that it really needed to build some resource behind it before we talked about doing anything more active than just the play itself. But I'd be really up for other suggestions about things we might do that don't involve huge resources and commitment, but that make it more practically meaningful for people who signed it. What can we, what demands could we put on people who signed the pledge? What could we ask of them? What could we suggest they do? Yes, and I think that's the, to come back on Liz's point as well and the fact that it is very busy obviously and everybody is rushing around doing things, the thing perhaps to throw into the mix is that actually you're not necessarily looking for things that take a lot of time. So things you are doing already, how can you pop those into the public domain or how can you share them in a way where we can find them? How can you create them? And as Scott mentions, let's see if we, through perhaps curation of what's happening, we can pull this together and it then supports us in sort of promotion activities with open. So you're not just pointing to the same things all the time, you're seeing different actors in different roles. I think giving examples is really helpful and I think the blogging idea is really, really helpful. And the translation, I've got to say something about the translation haven't I obviously? So yes, we can certainly get the pledge translated into French and Spanish. I think we should move that forward quite quickly. And Catherine, yeah. And we've got someone else who's keen on that, so maybe I could put you in touch, that would be really great to do that. Excellent, lovely. There's a point here from Catherine as well around the various conferences, the Open Education Global Conference coming soon. Yes, how are we reaching them? Yes, and for me it would be great to have other people who are willing to talk about this because I mean, I should say at this point I'm just one person sort of trying to bring some threads together and create a space for people to take on whatever they want this to be. I've got no, I don't want to be identified with it personally in any way. I want other people to pick it up. And some of the bigger organisations are making noises that they might like to pick it up. But for the time being, I'm really keen to try and keep it as a grassroots kind of open network and just see what can happen through that. But obviously that means we don't have, for example, Creative Commons putting a huge amount of resources. And we do, as I must keep saying, we do have the alt, people at alt helping to upload signatories and doing the back office stuff, which I'm deeply grateful for. But if it's going to be actively promoted, we'd need more than that. Yes, Liz, and some libraries have signed, which is great as I'm following everybody's contact details I have. Yeah, I found that kind of, you know, even today I saw one of our collections being shared on Twitter. And I thought, oh, should I follow up with the pledge and suggest it? It's difficult to know, you know, where you tread on this and whether you, obviously it helps if somebody comes forward and says, oh, that's interesting. Can you tell me more? But we will obviously use the webinar and the recording of this webinar as well to help people better understand what the pledge involves and how open, if I come to Catherine's work, is contextual and it doesn't mean everything has to be open and it doesn't mean that you're not going to be paid ever again. It's very much down to how we interpret things. And I love the way the pledge is worded. I think it's really well put together in terms of leaving those options open so that people can think about what will work for them. And yeah, Liz, well, give it a go. You're encouraging me, I'll give it a go. One of the things that I will just share is the blog post that I've just put in the chat window addresses this issue, which then begins to unpack, I think some of the other issues we're struggling with or we're wondering about. So I tried to address the question of what it is that might be shared, which is something that the open COVID pledge for science and medicine does really clearly. You know, it's kind of it's, a lot of it is patents in their case. We don't have patents in quite the same way. And of course, we have open access publishing in education. And just in a really basic way, you know, that I think that we could make requests to some education journals that we know that are not open access that are at least for the duration of or for the purpose of some issues that get discussed in their pages, making that material open and putting aside the payment would be the right thing to do, you know, in the same way that lots and lots of magazines and journals and scientific journals and non-scientific have put COVID related content outside of their paywall, simply because it's the right thing to do. So I think there's kind of stuff around open access we could think about. There's lots of open data sets that might be useful. And I mentioned a couple of the kinds that were happening. I think OERs for educators is in a sense, the problem there is not scarce to your lack of openness. The problem there is just the richness and variety of all the work that's been done over the summer to create how-to videos and thought pieces, frameworks, and the rough and ready, the examples of practice. There's so much there, you know, is the pledge, particularly if we kind of shared curation, is it a way for people editorialized that a little bit from their perspective, you know, here I am. I want to look at what's available under the open COVID pledge that is going to really help solve this particular issue or work for this particular group of educators to have this particular problem. So, you know, I think that's where taking in turns to create the hashtag might produce some kind of quite nice editorialized pathways through what is an absolute plethora of material relating to practice, which is so amazing. And so I think in thinking about what's there, it helps us to think about, well, therefore what we have to do and what might we do in relation to our existing, but also trying to just create a few links. So this is talking about libraries. I think it would be great to create some links with the library network around this and with the open licensing in that way as well. So I'm just really open to other ideas about, you know, given that in the open community, this is how we might help people find pathways through it as much as how might we have these conversations about bringing things to openness that are currently not open enough. I think both of those are kind of useful conversations to have. Yes, and it's been a really vibrant conversation in the chat, actually, which is probably because we haven't got mics for people, but I'm sure Deb would pass those if anybody wants to take a mic. It's interesting to have this issue. I've always been keen on sort of, you know, the podcast you could record, for example, just by having a conversation with other people in your space around what you're doing because of COVID. You know, just a 10-minute, 15-minute audio track. The quick video capture of how to do X, which could be really useful for other people using similar technologies. And I think it's interesting what Scott raises here about the conversations around institutional reputation, where I think I would point them directly at Edinburgh and the work on Open that was done there with the Glasgow project as well that we've shared in the past. There are some real wins from a reputational standpoint from increasing openness, just from a collaborative point of view and team building and understanding what other people do. We tend to work in our silos. I mean, I think another conversation that's worth having organisationally, or worth thinking about is that we all know that at this time in particular, organisations are looking to their data platforms, to their digital platforms, to provide them with data for decision-making. And an awful lot of vendors are in a way selling the selling platforms, new ones or existing ones, on the basis that it will give you an awful lot of access to close data, to close data you can own about how your students are behaving. And I think the Open COVID pledge for me, if I would put a bit of a political spin on it, I think it would be a way of opening up a different conversation about what's worth sharing. So as a university, it might be just as valuable for you to have a rich conversation about how other universities have approached non-engaged students, for example, as it would be to install the best dashboard to monitor who they are and where they are. Now, I would say that, wouldn't I? But I think it's really important that we can use something like this to value all kinds of knowledge and know-how, not just data, not just the findings from surveys, for example, and finding ways of bridging those across contexts, because I know Catherine would say a lot of that is very contextually embedded. Then I think that's, Scott tries to lead you on learning analytics. Exactly, and how are we sharing the pros and cons of that? An earlier slide, I had the heroes and villains narrative. And I think what I hear is, learning technologists in particular have been right in the middle of this narrative about what it is that learning technologists do. On the one hand, suddenly being the heroes of the story, and yet on the other hand, from various perspectives that we all care about, there's huge worries about the impact of the rush to digital and of how new platforms are being installed and used. We all could just say Proctorio and maybe leave that one hanging there. So, yeah, be as villainous as you like, Scott. I hope to see your cape on a future outing. But I think if we want to be on that, we need to have a little bit more nuance about what we're actually learning about the online pivot and that requires an open pivot. So I'm an I would kind of say we can't have the online pivot without an open pivot that means we're being more transparent about what we're learning. I'm going to stop speaking, because I've spoken a lot in this quarter past, I know from Theresa, you kind of often try and wind up here, but if there's appetite to go on talking, I'll be happy to stay a bit longer. Hi, Tess, let me just see you there. So you two are a villain, okay. Yes, I am. Okay, so I'm learning to take off very much here with that. Well, it's one of those things that if you just go straight pragmatism, you need something, you know? And I work in, my job title is no longer Learning Technologist, but somebody's got to do it. And, you know, so I work in medicine and that's high stakes. And so the way that the assessment team think of it, if we don't, you know, make it secure, super secure, then how can we tell, you know, the authorities that we really have prepared the doctors to go out and practice? And I find it hard to argue against that. Thank you for sharing that, Therese. I guess my piece would be that what we are being asked to do, what learning technology staff and learning technology teams and educators generally are being asked to do is evidence-based. And the pledge shows that we are thinking about our practice, we're reflecting on our practice, we are sharing the research and the evidence about our practice. We are not just blindly rushing into doing what we're told to do. And nor are we kind of like the healthcare workers who are clapped for. You know, nor can we just be sacrificed on the altar of working 24 seven to make it happen. So I guess the piece there, I would say is evidence-based, you know, that the practice we all engage with and value is an evidence-based practice. And the open COVID pledge says, just as you need evidence to practice successfully in public health at a time of crisis, you also need evidence to practice successfully in education at a time of crisis. And here we are, we're professionals, we're academics, we're intellectuals, we are evidence-based. And this is a sign that we care to share the evidence and to make use of it. Absolutely. Thanks, Scott, for sharing that link as well around assessment and how assessment can be improved because I think that's another important point. I think, I'd always come back to Catherine's work. She's too modest to say anything about it here. But you know, when you think about what she taught us about open education, there are going to be things that can't be shared for reasons of privacy or security or whatever, that's always going to happen. But it is possible to editorialise, as Helen said earlier, those things that are shareable and to help people think about other ways of doing things. We really can't, we're in a position where what has to be achieved far out stretches what any individual can do or any single organisation can do. If we're going to make a difference, we have to work collaboratively. And in order to collaborate, we have to get to know each other, we have to build trust, we have to speak to each other. So, you know, one of the first ways I can see this moving forward is just breaking down some of those barriers and having some of those conversations. I think it's really helpful to be in that conversation. So thanks very much, Teres, for bringing along your context as well to the discussion. And thanks, Catherine, for raising the UNESCO as well. Yeah, they are clearly a really important player in this and I've been trying to get some of their different teams to take an interest. And I think that might happen, which would be great. But even so, just pointing to the OER recommendation and pointing to their recommendations for the future of education and their young people's decoration on the future of education as well, all of which links I will share on the discussion list after this is really helpful. Please do join that email discussion list and we'll get some more open conversation going. I'll put that link in the chat window. Many thanks, Helen, for giving us, as Catherine has expressed there, renewed enthusiasm and just giving us the energy we need to find things that work for us. It's, you know, there is no one thing that is going to fit everything. But if we can pick up that open COVID for Ed hashtag, sign the pledge, think of others that we know who might want to have that conversation. And that conversation may not translate immediately into action, but it starts the wheels turning. And I think that's really important. And I think it's very important as well that we encourage the students to get involved in this conversation. The vital message we have to give us that we cannot return to business as usual. Got us into the position we're in. We really need to rethink how we do things and find a new way of conceptualizing business. Thank you, Therese, Teresa, for hosting this. It's been really, really helpful. Oh, great, Therese, it's good to hear that students are willing to get involved in that discussion, you know. To be thinking about doing medicine at a time like this, that these young people have huge respect. And yes, wouldn't it be wonderful if we could get the National Union students? And yes, I was delighted to see UCU had signed. So I think that's a great coup, too. That was great. I was very pleased with that. And through that, I'm working on getting Larissa to sign. Obviously, the NUS has a huge amount on its plate. But hopefully, if the NUS signs, it will mean that it will be easier for having that, for using it as a way to have that conversation. Since the conversation, I'm sure was happening in many places locally, just emphasizing that there is a shared value there. Absolutely, absolutely. And Kelly isn't with us at the moment, but I know Kelly's work on repositories, but also it's relevant. If you run and organize a repository, how are you making it easier for people with respective repositories to look into yours and to share things? To share across teams, across institutions, and within departments, across practitioners, too. Thank you so much, Helen. You've really given us great inspiration and lots and lots of evidence. And I think the encouragement to take this on board, because it very much is something where we can all bring something to the table together. Yeah, just to emphasize that what this is is what you all say it is. So every time you blog about it, you make it something different. It isn't anything other than what everyone who's signed it says that it is. So please do think of making it a little bit your own. Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, so fully support that. I'm just going to...