 Welcome everyone to this afternoon's session, Coding and Software Club at the Burnett Institute, presented by Anna Wilkinson. Before I start, I'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of country throughout Australia and their continuing connection to land and culture and pay my respects to elders past and present. Here in Perth, I'm honoured to be located on Wajup Country, the ancestral lands of the Nongar people. Our presenter this afternoon is Anna Wilkinson. Anna is an early career public health researcher with interests in epidemiology, biostatistics maximising the use of data and evaluating public health policy. Anna completed a PhD in 2016, which focused on HIV epidemiology and followed this with postdoctoral positions at Cancer Council Victoria and Burnett Institute, expanding not only her public health content knowledge, but quantitative analysis skills. To further build her theoretical knowledge Anna commenced a Master of Biostatistics in 2017, Australia's leading qualification in biostatistics, demonstrating commitment to ongoing learning and a career in biostatistics. So without further ado, I'm going to hand over to you, Anna. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you, Christina, for that introduction. That's very nice. So thank you for having me here today. I'm going to present about coding and software club. So this won't be a particularly long presentation, so you will have opportunities to, I guess, ask questions, anything that I can clarify if I haven't kind of made clear or painted a clear enough picture for you, happy to do that. I'm very thankful to come and present today. I'm very much a fish out of water, I think, but it's very nice. This is a very nice atmosphere in this workshop. So it's great to be talking about training because I never actually stock and think about it. I just kind of do it. So I'm going to talk about coding and software club at the Burnett Institute. And this is a story of peer-to-peer learning. I'd like to acknowledge today that I'm on the land of the Wurundjeri people here in Melbourne. And if you're in Melbourne, you'll know that one day a year we have a day of spectacular weather. It's today. So I'm presenting to you today and missing out on our one day of nice weather. These are my acknowledgements, any funding and disclosures of interest to present to you today. I have a couple of people I really like to think that have really supported coding and software club from the beginning, and I've just popped their names down here today. This is an outline. I'm going to keep it really simple. I'm going to talk about the who, the what, the why we do it. And I know this has been about impact today's workshop. So I'm going to really talk about how I think club has impacted people, but I guess this is a nice opportunity then for people to ask me how it's impacted. There was an interesting discussion earlier on measuring impact, which is always a question that I do in my day-to-day job, but I haven't bothered too much with coding club. So just give me a chance to think about am I measuring? I'm going to talk about some challenges and opportunities and some lessons learned. So when I get to the slide on lessons learned, you'll know I'm at the end. So you can start thinking about what you'd like to ask. The Burnett Institute is in Melbourne. It's on the camp, what we call the AMRAC campus, so down there Alfred Hospital. It's an independent medical research institute. It's named after McPhalen Burnett, who was a laboratory kind of person who you may know, won a Nobel Prize. So we had a beginning in Fairfield Infectious Diseases Hospital, which is actually not far from where I live. If you're a Melbourne person, you'll know that area. And it really started as a laboratory-based institute. So a lot of clinicians, it sort of moved into a public health arena and then developed up to international development. So now we have a large kind of three sections, which is basic science, laboratory, population health and some international development. But the population health area has really expanded. So now we do large surveillance projects, long-standing cohort studies. I've got a message of unstable internet, hopefully I'll hold out. And some implementation or community-based kind of trials. So we have large amounts of research data. I've been at the Burnett now for 12 years, starting as a student. My background is nursing, so I moved from a clinical background into public health and research. And when I was starting at the Burnett and since really up until only recently, the dominant software has been Excel. So we started off using Excel using Microsoft Access, using Stata, a little bit of SPSS. We now kind of have a bit of red cap. We've really had these very dominant pieces of software that we use to do our work. So you needed to know what to do with data to work at the Burnett, I guess. To be a research assistant, to be an honest student, you had to clean data. That's what, it's just an essential skill. Everybody needed to do that. How you got those skills, however, was a bit completely unknown, certainly unknown to me as to how I was supposed to learn that. So you either had some foundational training, maybe in your master's course, or you kind of went to a one day workshop, or you just kind of quietly asked someone, but maybe that person knew what they were doing. They probably didn't. So you just got really bad learning from someone else who had really bad learning. It's what I call podvice. So our offices set up in, as you can imagine, those little partitions of desks that we call pods. So I call it, instead of the brovice, you get at the gym, it was podvice. And it was generally terrible. Or you just struggled on your own and you just kind of Googled and you just worked out how to use Stata and how to clean data and how to kind of go about it. Some people, as you know, in a workplace, then get reasonably well known as someone that knows how to do something. So you go and ask them. So there would be a few people that would be quite proficient Stata users, for example. And so people would say, oh, go and ask them how to do it. And I felt like they were really going to be quickly overburdened if they weren't already overburdened or had the appearance of being overburdened. So people wouldn't ask them anything anyway. Well, I'm what they call a Burnett boomerang. So I leave Burnett and then I work somewhere else and then I come back to Burnett. And I've done that quite a few times. But my most recent boomeraming back, when I got there, there was sort of a change in atmosphere. And some of you will know Ma Kiroga. And I kind of credit this with Ma. When I got back to Burnett this time around, she's an R user. And there was suddenly this kind of crackling sort of undertone of, oh, there's different software. We also had a bit of an expansion. We got a new researcher into the Burnett who does a lot of infectious diseases modeling. They, that person had a small group of people and they could use MATLAB. So then there was sort of this, well, there's one person who knows R and there's one person who knows MATLAB. And then suddenly all these different types of software were being talked about like, what is R? And could you use R and what is MATLAB? And should I learn that? And then suddenly there was lots of new words like using Python and using Git. So I felt like it was really a moment that we actually needed to think about how we taught and learn. And we needed a model really to teach people how to learn and how to teach themselves in a way that was robust and sustainable but meant they would get good quality information. And I felt like we had a very band-aid solution that it was sort of, I wanna do this right now. So how do I learn that? Instead of having a prevailing culture or an idea that actually what we needed to do was have some way for people to build skills over time so that when they actually needed to do a task they already had the skill to do it. I think like most institutes, there are invisible boundaries of a research group or a department or a project. And I felt like that was something that really needed to change. And there's been a lot of talk at our institute. We had a sort of a formal restructure and a new strategic plan. I'm a born cynic. So I kind of felt like actually there was a lot of talk about dissolving silos and working across research groups and no actual action that applied to me. And I felt like this actually was the way that we could do that. That if we had something that was about coding and was about software and was about teaching these things that there would be a way to actually do this without relying on research groups. I really felt like there was a time and an urgency to broadening the scope of our languages. I'm the kind of person that looks at something and says I'm pretty sure there's a better way to do this. I don't know what it is, but I'm pretty sure there's a better way. So kind of this concept of having people just learn one piece of software or just kind of be constrained to one piece of software when I knew full well that other people were using other things. It felt like we weren't contemporary. I'm not sure what contemporary looks like, but I felt like it didn't look like us. So there had to be a way to get us to broaden what we were using and what we thought was usable or acceptable. Hence, Coding and Software Club. I was actually in preparation, I was trying to remember how I came up with a name and I have absolutely no idea how I came up with a name. But I think it sounds quite good. So we did what we call Coding and Software Club was born. And the idea was every week on a Friday at 11.15, it sounds like an odd time, but there's a reason because Biscuit Club was 10.30 to 11. So Coding Club was 11.15. So we had a weekly drop in session for an hour. It would be in the room straight across the hall from Biscuit Club to try and get that fluid movement of people. And essentially it was a big, one of our big rooms were in the office and you came in and you just dropped in and you just asked a question. And I would encourage people to come as people who could answer a question or could ask a question and kind of paired people up and gave them someone to talk to and just had a little bit of a think about it or their question was and work through it. We also started a Slack workspace. So I know there's been talk today of tools and communication. Again, this was a tool that was sort of being used by some groups but they weren't telling other people they were using it until I find something out. Once I find something out, I tell everybody so never tell me anything that you want to kind of be kept a secret because I'll tell everybody. So I said, well, hang on a sec, everyone's using Slack, I want a Slack. So we started a Slack workspace for coding and software club. We have an intranet like most organizations. We just promoted ourselves on the intranet and Slack and word of mouth and did the drop in. And we really, I had a deliberate decision and I guess this is born from some of the lessons I'll talk about later which is that I'm in a trusted or a privileged position in the organization that I generally don't ask permission for things. So I never asked people about what I could do for coding club and what it could look like and who could come. I just made that decision. And I made that decision that it would be open to anybody who wanted to come. The particular motivation for this was to include Monash data fluency who you may know and Nick Wong. So I made a decision that anyone could come. So if you're at Monash, if you're at Alfred Health, if you were at another university, if you used to work at Burnett and then you'd gone somewhere else, you could come. I thought that was incredibly important, particularly because I was acutely aware of this scenario where I was pretty sure that other people knew good stuff and I wanted to know it as well. And I can't do that if we just continue to look within Burnett. That's never gonna move us forward. We really needed to understand what other people are doing. I wanted to start out with a philosophy that everyone's a teacher and everyone's a learner. Mainly because none of us are actually as cool, nearly as qualified as the people on this call, I think to be teaching anything whatsoever. So I felt like it would be a bit of a pseudo title if I said, this person's the trainer or this person's the teacher when not one of us is trained in teaching or training. So it always, I guess, is a bit of a safety mechanism but it just seemed like a bit more of a democracy if I kind of said, everyone teaches, everyone learns. So you can come to ask a question or you can come to help someone else. I wanted a really active learning model. I wanted people to come along with a question and bring their data and bring their code. This is really unpopular. I think everyone was really used to a model. Maybe it's coming from that academic side where you go to a lecture and you just watch. Everyone just wanted to sit back and watch. So when I started coding club, everyone would say to me, oh, what are you showing us this week? You're like, no, no, that's not what I'm doing. You're bringing something to me and then we're gonna work through it. That was really unpopular, I think. And I think attendance was kind of variable because of that. The expectation was that each week I would have something prepared and I would show something, people something new and that would be how it goes every week. And one, I didn't want that model but two, I couldn't possibly do that. I actually have a job and it's not teaching people code. So that was really hard. So I think attendance really varied and it probably varied for that reason that people didn't always have a question or weren't prepared or they'd say to me, oh my God, it's 11 o'clock on Friday already. I was gonna ask something, but now I don't remember what it was or I'm not prepared to bring it or my data's not ready or my code's too messy or I don't have anything for you. So it really kind of went up and down. Then we had work from home. The good part of work from home was that we already had Slack set up and then it absolutely took off. It was massive. It got a little bit too big to the point, I don't know if people are used to kind of Slack, their model, we've got like a not-for-profit sort of membership so we don't pay for it. We have a bit of an advancement though in our features with the not-for-profit status, but they do cap your members. So I was starting to get messages from Slack recently and I realized it was because we're almost about to hit 250 members on Slack. And I had to do a bit of a cull to keep flying under the not-for-profit radar at Slack. But I checked when I was doing this and we have 216 people on Slack and about 50 are active each week. So you can look at the analytics of Slack if you're used to Slack. And I created this channels in Slack. So the channels are based on some software or things that you do. So there's R and Stata and Git and RedCap and Data Management. And there's also like a general work channel. There's a general coding and software club channel but there's also a not-work channel. And the fact I think that the coding and software club workspace is not for coding for the vast majority of people. It's actually for a connection. And I really encourage photos and funny stuff and gifts and names and whatever people want to put on there, I really don't mind. So I think the good thing about the coding and software club Slack is amongst the fun stuff and the connection there is questions about code and about software and how to access things. And I promote what we're doing and I promote courses. I have a really reasonably popular channel on job opportunities. So I post jobs. And so I think the fact that we kind of created a platform that was really just for people engaging with their colleagues that we built up quite a trusted sort of platform. So people could then use it to ask code. I just wanted Slack because actually if you post a question about code it's a very good platform for that. It formats the code really nicely. It allows you to kind of ask things straight away. I really wanted Slack because I know people have got immediate needs and I wanted to address their immediate questions. And Slack is brilliant for that. We do have a phenomena that I call the Slack stacks on. So I do have to kind of coach people or just give them a little bit of an intro to the idea that once you post a question there's a good chance that five people who don't want to do their own work that are really interested in kind of problem solving because we have people who love problem solving will jump on you and be like, what about this? And you could do this and what about this? And before you know it you've got a kind of a 30 message thread to kind of solve your coding problem that's a bit overwhelming. But I think once you kind of coach people or through that a little bit and say, hey, this is probably going to happen but don't worry. It's just because people are super excited. And I give lots of positive feedback on Slack. You know, like great question. Thanks for posting. Did you come up with a solution? Great solution. That's kind of fun. Can you send a picture of your cat as well? And so I think we've created a nice platform for that. We then had someone new and this is the brilliant thing about new blood, right? New people. They're the best. We had a PhD student who someone had put on our Slack to say, oh, a colleague of mine has this book. You folks might be interested. So it is called, if you haven't seen it the epidemiologists are handbook and it's free. So if you chuck it into Google right now it'll come up. It was put together by, I can't remember now but it was put together sort of in response to COVID and it's about teaching epidemiologists are. It's incredible. It's incredibly comprehensive. It is an explanation of R. It's the best explanation of R I've seen for beginners. It explains a stator to R translation which is what I needed. It's got code and then it's got example data sets. It shows you the results of that. So our PhD student Marins said, hey, what about this? What if we work through a section of the book each week starting from the very beginning? And I was like, absolutely because nothing else is working. So if you've got a new idea, for sure, let's do it. So we promoted ourselves. We kind of had a refresh in a rebrand and we kind of said, right, you can learn R and a very nice comms person made us a little nice pirate kind of banner for our internet that said R. So you could learn R. Come along to coding club. We would start from the very beginning. I did no preparation because I was used to kind of one or two people coming to coding club and 35 people turned up to coding club to learn R. So then I got myself together a bit more and we came up with a much better strategy. So now we prepare a section of the book each week and we demonstrate the section of the book every week on Zoom. And we've worked through it reasonably sort of cohesively. So we've gone really from the beginning, download R, load a package, put the dataset in, skim the data, work through all the data management, all the data cleaning. We've been doing that since about June, every single week. We do allow some consistency. And again, when I talk about lessons later on, we have skipped around a little bit to make it interesting each week. And I think from the discussions earlier, I think Zoom has been phenomenal for this because I got, when I was putting this together, I put it on Slack again to say, hey, I'm giving this talk and people give me some feedback about what do they think about this talk? Is it okay? And one person said, do you know the best thing about the Zoom sessions? Is it actually, doesn't matter how you learn, it caters for it. So if you just want to kick back and watch the presenter, like go through the code and do some live coding, you can just watch. If you want to follow along and what we're actually doing, you can put the session on one screen, you can put the book up on another screen or your studio on another screen. You can watch what we're doing and you can look at the book and you can actually copy code out of the book or you could live code. The book's all available and we follow the book exactly and it's got all the code in the book. So you can actually run this section yourself, be prepared, run it all and then come and ask questions. Or we actually tell people you can present because the book makes it super easy for, it's got all the code there. It's not a trick kind of book. It doesn't say, here's your challenge for the week. It's not like that. It's like, here's the code. So they could take the code, take the practice data, put it all together and then I say to them, you just present. And if you want to present for five minutes or 10 minutes, completely fine. So you just say what piece of code you've done, what was new to you and show us what it does. I then really had to adapt, I think, my thinking. And again, I'll come to this in some lessons and really make sure that I offered people small groups for one-to-one. And I saw someone put in the padlet that breakout rooms were good for that, that they did breakout rooms for people struggling or for extra sessions. And Zoom is phenomenal for that as well. So one person might present for the day and I'll go each week and I'll say, hey, if anyone wants a breakout room, just raise your hand and we'll do a breakout room so people can just get smaller group support. I also offer people one-to-one startup at any point of my week whatsoever. I don't care because it's just so important to me that people get what they want. And what they want is really someone to talk them through the really hard parts of R. And this is a really R-specific example, I know, but I can also do it with Stata. And so I do a one-to-one session with people. I download R, download RStudio, open them up, show them the console, install a package and I don't leave anybody until they've got data in and they can see the data because that's all researchers want. They want to know how do I open up this software and how do I see my data? And they want to see their data, you know, however you call it, I call it case by variable format or an Excel sheet format. They just want to know and they're super, they're super anxious until you get them to the point where they're like, there's my data. Oh yeah, for some reason they just get really panicky about software until they can see their data in a format that they're happy with. So I offer them a one-to-one support until they see the data and they're like, oh yes, great. Okay, this is not mythical things. This is not some kind of magic software that I can't work. There's my data, they're happy. How is it impacted? I think this is a tough question and I think everyone's grappling with this today which is really nice to know but here's how I've been thinking about impact. So I like the feedback that we get from people particularly on Slack and it's very nice if they share that feedback to everybody. So I took a little screen grab and one of them that I thought was great that gives you the vibe of our Slack again, I guess. And I like it when people say, I never thought I would do that and people say that all the time. I never thought I would use R. I never thought I would be able to make a plot because that's all they want to do. Literally all researchers want to do is make a plot. That's fine. But when I think about impact I guess I like to think about broader things that are less at the individual level. So I think by creating something that is peer-to-peer learning we've saved people and the institute money. So students and staff and their leaders haven't had to perhaps spend money on workshops because we can offer that week to week. I think there's a real advantage of creating a place to go that is not within a department or within a project. It's not anybody's and I've defended Coding Club vigorously when people have tried to claim it and they've tried to claim it. They've tried to say this is an initiative done by this discipline or some kind of word within Burnett. And I say absolutely it's not. And luckily I've got the authority to say that because I can say it's not. It's not yours. It's not a project. It's not funded by anybody. I don't belong. This club doesn't belong to anyone. It belongs to everyone. Everyone comes, everyone's available. And then I hear people say things like if we're in a meeting someone might say oh, what's this person up to? And I'll hear someone say, oh yeah, yeah, they're great. I know them. This is what they're doing. I see them at club. So I know it's increasing connections. I think we've really slowly but I think we have created a culture of asking questions. So I think I can prove this by saying that before this didn't exist there was nowhere where you could post your coding question. So now I think we've gone to zero to 100% of having somewhere where you can ask a question. We have most certainly and I probably should count but we have absolutely increased the R users. So again, when I came back to the Burnett there was maybe one to two R users and they weren't using R actively. They'd just come from the background of using R. I can now say that we have entire teams of people and an entire projects that uses R and that is in the space of one year. One year ago, we never had an entire research project that would have all of their work done in R and now I do. So I'm on that project. So I can verify that we have that. I think we've boosted people's skillsets. So people would previously just say that they used one language or one piece of software. I have no doubt whatsoever, but for the people who are coming to club that they will be able to say they have a couple of languages. I think we've increased interest in data management coding, but really a little bit of extension to that which is version control and analytics. Now we have to thank the C word. We have to kind of thank COVID for this, particularly as you may be aware the Burnett Institute has played a role in the COVID response in Victoria and a little bit in other jurisdictions, but really I think this has focused people's attention at the Burnett Institute on data analytics and the skillsets. I don't think we could have ever played the role that we did in COVID without the people that we have and the skillsets that we have. You can't model the response to the COVID epidemic without I think good software. I mean, admittedly, model is regrettably talented and I have seen them do this in Excel, but it is slightly easier and slightly more efficient in other pieces of software. So I believe now we have an opportunity to say, you know what, not only have we actually played a really applicable kind of piece of work in public health and I spoke to one of our lead models the other day who was exhausted but delighted at the application of our work. And I think we can now say, if you have these types of skillsets within an organization, you can make a really big difference. Okay, I'm gonna go through what's hard, what's good and then some lessons to finish up. So get your questions ready. It's really hard to come up against the brick wall of do what we've always done. The bucket of crabs, as you know. So, you know, the crab tries to crawl out of the bucket and the other crabs just pull the crab back down. So we are in a little bit of a bucket of crabs, I'll be honest. So coming up against a culture of that this is what we've always done. This is what I know is really hard to argue against. I find it really hard and this might not go down well in this audience, but yeah, this is kind of I'm used to doing that, that I find it challenging to come up against a mindset that the way to improve or upskill is a course or a workshop. And that's always the answer. That is the answer on occasions, but not always. I'm always a fit the solution to the problem. When I take a problem to people that really what we wanna do is incrementally build up skill sets to meet the solution to that is not a workshop. You know, when I'm saying things like people need immediate need and relevant things, that's not a workshop. Workshop has its place. You can't give me a workshop every time. I think that's not the right solution. So then I find it really difficult to convey what I know what I've learned from learners because I'm coming up against people who say, workshops are the way to fix this. And I'm kind of saying, actually my experience is telling me it's not. The people want things that are really on demand. They want some immediate application. They wanna come, they want some consistent advice and some frequent advice and a place to always go. They can't go back to a workshop. They can come back to coding club every single week. I think you'll know maybe from your, you know, replace teaching with something that's a challenge in your workplace, but we don't have teaching as part of our really roles. It's not my role. It's kind of my role, but it's not really. I don't have key performance indicators. There's no incentivization. There's no reduction in my research load to teach people. We're living in a world of reactivity. As you know, the reactivity at the moment is COVID, but we have other reactivities. We have really fun things. If we have, for example, a whole of Institute seminar, we will have buzzword bingo. So you probably do something else, but we have buzzword bingo. So buzzwords at the moment are omics and data viz. And so someone will be like, the future's omics, Anna. Just can you run me an omics workshop? It's like, hang on a sec. Don't we mean, can we build up a workforce that can teach themselves how to learn new pieces of software? No, no, no, omics workshop. Okay. I still have a challenge that I'm seen and coding club is seen as not the place for beginners. And I always find this really confronting feedback. I have to really kind of push people for good feedback, but I always find it really upsetting when they say, but you all know how to code and you're all advanced. That's really hard for me to hear because I really feel like we're really good with beginners and I need to work on that more. I think there's an issue of ownership. I think I'm getting better. We have some, there's three of us really that I think are leading a coding club, but I need to, I think, have a really clear message, particularly next year to say, this is not mine. How is this an Institute thing? How do we keep it going? All right, good things. It's a lot of talking. I'm really optimistic because we are building momentum. I think you have to go slowly. Things never change at the pace that you want them to change, but we're getting there. I think we're really building momentum. And I really like it when we have a thing at Burnett that I say you probably have it in your own, which is you say something frequently enough and then it becomes true. So if I say things frequently enough, suddenly I hear other people saying things. Like we really should get better in coding and analytics. And I'm like, absolutely. That's a great idea. We should, we should do that. Or people will say, we really, you know, what are we doing for version control? I'm like, yeah, that's good question. What are we doing for version control? So I kind of think you just allow people to keep talking the words and keep talking the language. We had a discussion about this in our breakout room earlier that I think it's really important to understand someone's currency. I have a clear memory of the time that I did really catch our CEO's attention. And the words that I used were, I will get you to publish more papers quicker. So you have to understand people's currency. It might be papers. If it's the COO, then I know it's governance and regulation. If I'm talking to HR, it's about professional development and being an employer of choice. If I'm talking to one of my leaders, it's about being a collaborator of choice. So how can I get you more international collaborations? Well, I can do that if you can speak the coding language of your international collaborators. So you really have to change that language each time. And I'm getting more savvy about how to do that. The good thing that we have is as much as our leaders are somewhat of a movable wall sometimes, they're getting better. The really good thing about a research institute is you have these students that come through. Every year we have honor students. We have some master students. We have PhD students. And if you get in early, you can get that middle layer of postdocs or senior IRAs or senior students who are really agnostic to software. And if they supervise the students, then they don't teach the students this dogma of we have to learn data. We have to do this. So we've got a real opportunity at a research institute with fresh people all the time. And I guess this is why when we were having a discussion before about learning impacts, that I'm less bothered by individual level impacts because we have this turnover. I guess I'm more interested in that real macro level impacts because I may never understand the individual level impacts of what does an honor student learn in a year that they might take forward. I'm more looking at the fact, well, broadly this year, when I went to the honors presentations, for example, out of 20 honor students, there's about five of them using R for their projects. That's new. That's completely new this year. I have a real opportunity. And again, this is one of these things where I know we should do it and I know it'll be good and I don't know how to do it, but I'll work it out eventually is that I know there's a way to find additional students and give them a chance to learn coding. And I know coding club can do that because I know I have the opportunity and the control to have it open because it's not an institute restricted thing because I run it. So I know this is something I can do. I don't know how to do it, but I know I'm gonna work it out eventually. I think these things are things that you already know, but these are the things that I've learned. And I guess these are more like humility lessons, right? That's always the important thing to think about. When were you wrong? There's the lessons. I think I've been completely wrong about giving students a way that I thought they needed to learn. And I've changed that because you can't, you just have to give the students what they want. If they want demonstrations all the time, fine. That's fine. That's how they're gonna learn it. And that's what I want. I don't teach code from the grammars. Like I've been to some of the workshops where they say, this is the grammar of the code. I don't bother. They wanna learn a plot, great. Learn a plot. I'm gonna start applauding. I'm more than happy to start applauding. I start there. Whatever they want, I do that. I think I've really learned that I acutely remember how difficult it was to understand R. It was just ridiculously hard. So I never skip the simple stuff. I always stay with someone until they've downloaded it, until they've installed a package. I stay with them until that's completely done because I don't think you can underestimate how people just need the simple stuff. When I first learned Stata, I, it was so stressful. I was so upset by going to these tutorials because I couldn't work out what it meant to change a directory because I didn't know what a directory was. I didn't understand folders. I didn't know where to save my work until the tutor who was really nice could kind of work out. I think there was a few of us who just didn't understand what he was talking about. So he actually did a separate session where he taught us what's a drive, what's a folder, where do you save your code? What is directory? What does that word actually mean? So I think that really taught me that you just can't say things like, open up your console, open up a script file and save it in a folder. I don't even assume people know what a directory and a folder is. I think when you're a researcher, I think, and trainers as well, I'd be interested to hear if this resonates, but I absolutely will pick a fight about teaching and learning and best practice. And it doesn't matter with who. I think now I, again, I have a reasonably trusted position. And I also have other people around me who are advocates who are more diplomats. So that's really nice because they smooth things over for me, but I absolutely will pick a fight about this stuff. And I think the words I said to someone the other day who was quite senior was, we have to change. We have to change what software we use. We have to change what coding we use. So I'm quite happy to endlessly just out there. We need to find it and teach it to people. Permission is really needed. I got this from my boss. She takes guidance from Pirates of the Caribbean. As you may remember, there's a line in there that things aren't so much rules as guidelines. So I don't follow rules. I don't ask for permission very often. I think it's willing to just get in trouble if things are wrong, but so far, things haven't been too bad. That's all I've got for today. I will stop the screen chair. I can go back to any of the slides that we want to. But that is the story of the Sisyphus and the story of peer-to-peer learning. So to explain that title, some of the PhD students, I'm reasonably well known, I guess, as the Sisyphus of the Burnett, because I'm not going to give up. I will keep teaching coding and I'll keep teaching things. Endlessly, I think. Back to the chair, Christina.