 Okay, we'll go ahead and call the July 6th Meeting of the Historic Preservation Commission to order. Can we have the roll please? Commissioner Sibley here Commissioner Fenster here Chairman Lane here Commissioner Norton here Commissioner Jacoby here Commissioner Barnert Thank you Thank you. We do have a quorum So then we'll move on to approval of the June 1st meeting minutes Do any of the commissioners have any comments or corrections on those minutes? Entertain a motion. Got a motion to approve from Commissioner Fenster And a second from Commissioner Sibley all those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Any opposed? none The minutes are approved Report from the chair, I do not have anything Tonight to report on so we'll just move on to communications from HPC staff liaison. I Don't have too many updates aside from the fact that we have been in conversations with our general planning consultant and their historic preservation staff about Getting work going on a survey plan for the city of Longmont. So That is the wheels are turning on that. We just are working on some administrative and scoping processes with those We did receive I think I may have mentioned this at the last meeting We have a proposal from karmic Williams on the tower of compassion cultural resources survey so we can set the framework for getting that Landmarked and need to do some Administrative follow-up on that and get some Work scene done and get things signed there. So aside from that. I don't really have any additional Comments or things items to report Glenn. I expected the chair to ask me about the HPC demolition was going to So I'm prepared I just got some changes from our city attorneys, so it doesn't look like anything real Substantials, so I'm going to go through that the next couple days. I'm meeting with them on Tuesday So I hope to have them plan to have them before you At your August meeting and then we'll go ahead and move it right into city council's process. So hopefully August September in that time frame. Hopefully we can get that vetted out with council. Okay, great. Yeah, that's good news Thank you any commissioner questions for staff. No, okay Thank you So next we have public invited to be heard anybody in the audience who is not here for an agenda item Everybody here's for something on the agenda. So we'll go ahead and Close the public invited to be heard and move on to our first action item Which is a public hearing for a certificate of appropriateness for window replacement at five four five Collier staff. Do you have a report for us? I do. Thank you so much and chair members of the Commission So we have a window request bear with me for a moment. Let me get my sentences back in order We have a request for window replacement at 545 Collier Street This property is at the southwest corner of Collier and 6th Avenue and so we have a request to replace all the windows in the home This particular property is known as the Bemis Rowan house and it was designated in 1985 So the applicant has indicated that They're seeking to replace the windows because the existing windows are inoperable. They've got some safety concerns regarding loose glass Very big concerns regarding efficiency. This particular winter was I think we know pretty rough and at one point She's indicated she indicated it was down to 42 degrees inside the house the other Reason siding was the rationale as a rationale for a placement was that there's limited availability of contractors who do this restoration work So the proposed replacement windows are from the Marvin windows ultimate wood line They are solid wood. They are made of pine So a soft wood Double-pane and would match the existing one over one style The applicant does propose to incorporate the original windows into a future greenhouse on the property So as part of as part of the application review process I did request that photographs be provided of all the windows in the house So the next few slides do show the existing windows. You'll see they are one over one Sash windows of varying sizes Throughout the home and these are included in my report as well. So just going through the Criteria for for review There are four criteria that we have to consider when evaluating a certificate of appropriateness And the first one is whether or not their work meets all applicable design Guidelines approved by council given that this is not a locally designated district, but just a rather a locally designated property We don't have those standards or those guidelines. So this Criteria does not apply The second would be whether the proposed work preserves enhances or restores and does not damage or destroy the exterior architectural features of the property So as a general rule replacement of original wood windows With modern replacements is discouraged for historic properties given the importance of windows to the integrity of architectural features The windows the photos of the existing windows provided by the applicant Don't seem to depict windows that are beyond repair and they seem to be salvageable We do recognize the difficulties that historic property owners have been having finding qualified contractors for this type of work And we do understand also that this work is Oftentimes beyond the ability of a lot of homeowners to do themselves a Big issue that was cited was lead times And so the applicant did provide documentation from their contractors stating that they were in fact available In the fall of this year to begin the work and that lead times from their storm storm window manufacturer were Along the lines of 22 weeks. This doesn't seem out of the realm of Reasonable for this type of work and these types of contractors given that it is a pretty specialty Field So we don't We're not of the opinion that the condition is Severe enough to warrant wholesale replacement And we also aren't convinced that the lead times are are so long as to Present a really severe hardship for the property owner. They may disagree with me But this is this is my professional opinion on this The third criteria that we have to evaluate is whether or not the work adversely affects the special character of the landmark and So the windows would match this one over one style of existing windows And they are would rather than composite aluminum or vinyl But We've had this discussion with this commission many times windows original windows are a really important feature of historic homes and Should be preserved whenever possible So we're not sad. We're not satisfied. We're not of the opinion that this criteria has been satisfied either The fourth criteria would be whether the architectural style Arrangement texture materials would be compatible The proposed replacements are of the same style and of a similar material as the windows will be replaced. However, they are modern replacements So technically this criteria has been has been met in that they are similar in terms of the style and the materials So in terms of staff's recommendation Your staff has three has the commission has four four options You can either approve the application is proposed you can approve the application with conditions Including approving in part denying in part you can defer action on the application based on the need for additional information Or you can deny this application So staff does recommend denial of this application based on the fact that review criteria two and three have not been met Specifically also the windows are not sufficiently deteriorated to warrant replacement We do recommend repair and installation of storm windows as an alternative to complete replacement As noted the applicant's contractor does indicate that they have availability starting this fall You know staff does recognize that fall is you know seasonal seasonal availability can can be very vague and fall does Include anytime from September 21st to December 21st So that that is a concern. I do understand But we just don't feel that the lead times are sufficiently long as to be unreasonable with that I will Open it up for questions. We do also have the applicant here to discuss their proposal as well Right. Thank you Before we open up for the applicant any commissioners have a question for staff Replacements What does that mean? That means modern manufacturing techniques double-pane windows Spring mechanism versus sash weights and ropes pressure barter They are coming through the windows and that Temperature is very low in the wintertime along with It isn't really necessary to have deteriorated enough And so I'm trying to understand from the staff's perspective What is how did how do how are we supposed to consider when something is deteriorated enough? And and that's that's first part and the second part is is there The last application we had was very different because they recommended the replacement was going to be not the word replacements This is a wood replacement. So is is it the feeling of the staff that there are no circumstances? that that a full replacement would be Vendic would be vindicated Or just how far along the deterioration line to something have to Progress So in the previous case We did I did recommend approval based on the fact that the windows to be proposed for replacement were on the upper story and I know we had some disagreement my my thoughts and based on the Documentation I was provided in that case is that those upper story windows weren't necessarily original They didn't appear to have a sash rope and weight mechanism. They seem to have a spring mechanism So I was not of the opinion. They were original in this case the applicant is seeking to Replace all the windows in the house rather than just the upper story. So the visual impact will be at street level. So that is a Consideration so I do have let me find the page so in terms of And this is a handout that commissioner Lane chairperson Lane Provided From the National Trust for Historic Preservation and it is basically about when do you repair and when do you replace? So if you go through this The determination is Window a could be repaired. It is has loose a loose meeting rail some missing glass that is that can be repaired Ditto B which has missing glazing That glazing is a really big component of keeping windows airtight and The exterior photos I was provided it did appear that there was some glazing that was missing And that needed to be replaced and that is that's a very important Part of keeping windows airtight Speaking from personal experience on that one So In terms of you know really of all of these windows that are shown on this on this document The only one that was deemed replacement was absolutely needed So window D it says replacement likely They were missing glass, but they were also missing the frames. So there really wasn't a lot to repair there but Really with the Exception of an F and G down here These are categorized as replacement is Probably necessary they're board on the borderline just because the extensive nature of the repairs So it's Takes it there are you know It's pretty amazing what can be restored in terms of weather tightness there's really good evidence that Well-fitting storm windows can Substantially increase the efficiency You know stopgap measures there are various films and stuff if you if you need if you need a cost-efficient thing, but ultimately Replacing you know The windows can go far for for helping with some of the drafts. So Ultimately from my perspective I'm more inclined to support replacement of windows that are not historic or original to the home Which it wasn't clear that that was the case back in February these are definitely very clearly original to the home in this particular property and therefore you know they they aren't in Such substantial Disrepair as to require As to require replacement True Jacobi you had a question Yes, I Know when we talked about the last set of windows and I gave you a name of someone who rehabbed windows the city You said the city has a listing of some people who repair them Do we still have that list? You know how many names are on that list? So the city does not maintain a list per se My practice is to refer people to the history Colorado contractor page since that is a more robust page and encompasses quite a few contractors Ever pretty much everyone who you know we we've encountered a history of the Saving places conferences are all on that list The challenges you know some of them are on in different parts of the state some of them only do commercial And and there are long lead times for quite a few of them So yeah, I was trying to get a handle on how many people are actually available in the Longmont area I don't I don't have a number Unfortunately, that's that's really not something that's easy to track too because they do come from other parts of the larger area Did you have another comment? I Think I'm on I think that I think commissioner Jacobi's question is an important one because we have to deal in the world of reality and if there are I Don't know How we can get a handle on on this because if there's nobody available to do any of this work Then saying well, it's a requirement that we have to have this worked on isn't realistic Requirement and we're basically saying that under no conditions will we ever approve them because you can never get them repaired because there is no One to do that work Now I'm not saying that's the case and in fact I was a little disappointed in the application talked about the ability and the time requirements for Getting the windows repaired or replaced But there was nothing in the application about any work that's been done or any evidence presented as to the Any attempt that was made or what the reactions were from people who repaired them, so again I would have liked to have seen that would have helped my decision But on the other hand, I also think the other part is what responsibility we have As people who are enforcing something If we're what we're enforcing is not a realistic possibility so if you look at there's attachment towards the end of the See it's before the cultural resources survey and that is an email between the contractor who the applicant Gosh, I'm trying to find it in the package now. It's kind of lost Page 26. Thank you very much 26 page 26 Yes, there is there is correspondence with heritage window restoration LLC President Greg Connor That they are booking new work and out into the fall of 2023 right well, I I'm aware of that. Yeah, so that's what we know we know that in the fall of 2023 They can do a full replacement, but no that that's for the repair work. That's for that's for the repair Work with I'm sorry. I missed that where I thought I'd read this where does it talk about repair work? So the company is heritage window restoration. Yeah, they're this they would be the supplier of the storm and those I understand but the presentation that's been made is that The windows will be replaced by this company that is not the company would be replacing them. Okay, so That is not the company that we would be replacing them. It would be Different company who deals in Marvin windows who would be replacing them Okay, because if you look at page 26 it says It says it's from from the applicant Working with you Jennifer an application to replace my historic windows Can you relay the lead time to me and that's what was responded to so I don't see anything here other than the fact that the word restoration is in the name so that That the fall time is for replace is for restoration is for repair So signature windows and doors is the contractor who would be replacing the windows And that was the quote Previous with the product information The email exchange that particular with a heritage window restoration they don't do replacement They do restoration and storm windows We don't have any quote on that so The reference is custom storm windows if you're doing window replacement there would be no need for storm windows so this was about the restoration and and preservation with storm windows So it's your it's your and your understanding is that this company would would do the replacement I believe duck comes more and I think we could get the applicant up here They could have an opportunity to explain and they could probably answer that question more clearly as well if we if we're good If there's no more questions for staff, I'd like if the app if you'd like your You can have the floor That's okay I'm Lizzie Wolf. I'm the applicant. Hi So to clarify a few things my understanding from the contractor who I Contacted to put storm windows on my windows not for repair. This was Simply to get another pane of glass there so that I can keep my house warm As an alternative to replacing the windows He told me that his project start date is in fall and Production of those windows is 22 weeks bringing us most of the way through winter or into spring So my kids and I would be living in that house through winter If they were to be repaired And I have some other things to also answer your concern I did some I did take some other measures on my own in order to air seal these windows for the last two Winters and I'll go into that as well. I'm sorry. It wasn't in the application I I don't think I'd quite knew what I was getting myself into when I filled out the application So I've offered all that information now. I'm really poor at speaking in front of people So I'm gonna read if that's cool with you guys Okay, so It's important to me that I note initially that I have a passion for historic houses This is not the first Victorian home that I've owned and restored And it's why I own one. I love historic homes. I have a passion for it Today, however, I'm here to present the facts of the condition of the home that I care for so much We all know I want to replace my windows with double-pane all-wood windows She made that extremely clear with that wonderful presentation if I had known that you were gonna put the pictures on the presentation I might have cleaned my house first But I'm going I plan on replacing them with identical shapes measurements and pain styles So fixative measures that I've taken to insulate my home in the winter include Caulking the gaps in the windows to stop the air coming in They're not operational anymore because they had to be cocked because there was air leaking in through my windows But almost every one of my windows required caulk. I did that it was Mostly effective so in addition to that I sealed the interior with plastic coating to remove drafts and many of those windows The plastic like billowed out. There's definitely air coming in in addition to that I Did professional weatherproofing of the front and back doors which are original Well, the front door is original the addition is from the 40s I think so the back door doesn't really count as Victorian or historic and then I did spray foam insulation in my crawl space to ensure that the heat was not Coming out through my floor and through the the foundation these types of foundations are rocks Put together and so there's lots of gaps. You can see daylight through them when you're in my cellar well not anymore and Professional operational window repairs done by a heritage restoration. That's how I got this contact I've actually already used him for some operational some of the larger operational repairs on my windows including broken glass missing locks I Didn't have him reseal all of them and go through a full restoration because it wasn't financially feasible for me at the time But I did have him address the larger issues that were more pressing and Then short-term measures that I've taken to live in my home in the winter with my children Not bring my children downstairs unless necessary And I really want that to sink in My kids are five and three and they don't come downstairs in the morning. They cannot come downstairs without socks and shoes and coats There was a point in February where it reached below 43 degrees 43 was an average I Ran space heaters 24 hours a day for weeks at a time huge energy waste huge expense and it didn't even work I ran my brand new energy efficient furnaces I have two of them one upstairs one downstairs at full capacity almost 24 hours a day With these measures deployed all at once for the last two winters the interior of my home has Often hit lows of 43 degrees as noted. Thank you very much And even saw below 40 degree temperatures in the really tough cold parts of winter In the month of February for two years in a row my energy bill has exceeded four hundred dollars. I Have records of my energy bills if anyone wants them. I have them all printed out Proving obviously these spikes in cost Okay, if no one's interested in those and I understand because that's boring There are some additional oh, I forgot about nope there it is haha, and I found it so because of the Energy bill situation I wanted to go a little bit into the realistic side of a $400 energy bill for me personally. I'm a single mom of two small kids We are a single income household and so it is not my desire to Lay out my finances to be recorded in City Hall, but I will I make four thousand nine hundred and eighty dollars a month My mortgage is two thousand and two thousand four hundred and sixteen dollars Take care for my children is one thousand three hundred and fifty. Those are my largest expenses For everything else food clothes bills gas insurance incidentals any kind of Crisis that may happen that leaves me one thousand two hundred and fourteen dollars in the month of February for two years in a row 30% of my disposable income went to energy if you do choose to take These balance these balance sheets you'll see that I struggled to pay them There were a couple months where I was lapsed I have no shame in admitting that Financing windows will add seventy five dollars a month to my mortgage. I plan on taking out a loan for it Far preferable to the spikes to four hundred dollars a month in the cold seasons And similar heights when it's hot and my AC is running and the cold air is coming out of my windows Okay, and then I promise I'm almost done I'd like to note some of the modern updates that have been done to the home to give us some perspective on the home in general the kitchen and bathroom addition about 250 square feet off the back of the house was added in the 40s as best I could find on the City of Longmont website and It significantly changed the look of the house We all agree that houses need bathrooms and kitchens. So seems reasonable to me The garage was added on to the original outhouse which is not on the register But I think it's kind of cool There's a woman door and a man door and the woman door slightly smaller than the man door I thought that was kind of cool, but they added a garage on it in a haphazard way and now it's unusable. It's a Structurally unsound structure sitting on the corner of my property But that was approved Or at least executed. I don't know if it was approved When I moved in and then so after I purchased the house I replaced the electrical there was Existing live knob and tube wiring everywhere in the house, and I don't know if you know anything about this, but that's incredibly dangerous So we replaced it all that was $19,000 I put a new roof on the house that was $22,000 another modern luxury That is we all deemed necessary But did do away with original material of the house And I put an energy efficient HVAC two air conditioners two furnaces one on each level so as not to compromise the structure of the home $32,000 Okay Well, I've already gone over the discrepancies in the report the 22 week lead time that's for storm windows I think that's probably where the confusion came in. I don't know how long it would take them to repair the windows I or Jennifer have not spoken to him about that. So we don't know But the start time to scope the project would be fall Which as you noted could this extend into December What are calendars? Just kidding Well, some of the things that I would hope would sweeten the application a little bit That I've already offered to finance significantly more expensive windows for the sake of continuity. These are wood windows They will not be removing any of the trim on the inside or the outside That is additional labor, but it was well worth the cost And I've also offered to use the the existing sashes to erect a greenhouse on the property I've always wanted a greenhouse anyway, and I think it would be a cool way to Adaptively reuse as is stated in the ordinance that gives you guys your authority the materials on the property And also like put them on display because they are really cool However inefficient they may be Let's see I think there are two more points. I would like to make in their short I've already made this point, but they are the center of my entire universe my children live in this home And it's important that they are warm in the winter. I am a tax-paying citizen I have lived here for over over 13 years, and I've owned more than one historic home. I love historic homes When I bought this home, it was a poorly maintained office building They did unspeakable things to the original materials in that house I don't even want to get into it, but I bought it because I saw its potential and I transformed it from an office and it had been that way since the 70s and Made it into a beautiful family home adding to the beauty and the historic culture of my neighborhood I think I hope I hope that this speaks about the respect that I have for the age of my home And I really appreciate you guys earnestly listening to my side of the story the story for me centers around my family And the livability of the home that I've purchased for us to live in and that I lovingly take care of Yeah, and I guess I have some supporting facts, but I'm open to questions. I know I talked for a long time I'm really sorry. I was following a script No worries. Thank you commissioners questions for the applicant I'm concerned with visual If you were to do the replacement you're proposing would there be a Significant visual difference No other than the fact that antique glass does have a very beautiful effect to it And that cannot be replicated the wood the size and width of the framing it's all custom to my specifications and So other than the glass It would look the same. I'd say that unless you're on this commission or you walk by my house every day You might not notice But that glass is beautiful, which is why I want to keep it on the property and do something with it piggybacking on that question. Do you know if Marvin's plan would be to remove the frame of the existing window or just to remove the sash and put this So it'd be frame and sash would be removed. No, and so I'm nodding because that's what I do when people talk to me, sorry So the question is really does the frame in the replacement scenario with the frame also come out or with their new window In a frame sash and frame fit inside the framed opening Their new window the sash and the glass would fit inside the existing frame all the trim work would be untouched It wouldn't even need to be removed There is it this is a subtle difference But but if you right now you have an existing frame in which the sashes sit And so when a replacement window is used the sashes are often removed The existing frame is laid in place. And so the new windows are actually smaller than the original by the Dimension of the frame around the new windows that are being put in so there's another level of detail Yeah, it's added that is a little bit different. That is more typical. Yeah, so No, he did talk to me about that when we were walking through the house But I could not pot I could not accurately recall that information. Okay, sorry Let's see first I have commissioner Jacoby So I was adding up the windows and the bills here. It's 18 windows. Is that right? Yes Okay, and you said that there's a safety concern and that is that they can't open or what is the safety concern? Well, the safety concern is The safety concern is when the glass breaks it breaks incredibly dangerously I have small children and they are Head height or above the bottom of those windows. Well, I have noticed that you have beautiful poured glass windows I live a block south you have the same Are all of them poured glass, you know or half of them still and half of them replaced at this point Do you have any idea? I know that in the original house the original bottom floor And in the addition that was built ten years later above There is the same quality of glass in the addition in the back. I don't think so you can see that beautiful. Yeah It's gorgeous, which is why I want to keep it on the property for sure So the safety is the issue of the glass being fragile being breaking illogically, right? So like when when you smash a modern window Oh Okay Might be me when you break modern glass It's shatter safe right and when you and when you break antique glass like that I've heard them lovingly Referred to as limb removers so Not to be inflammatory, but they break incredibly dangerously Okay, so it's the antique and easily because they are antique glass Well, you'd have to be careful in a greenhouse too, but anyway My children don't live in a green house in operable windows. You say they're inoperable before you caught you cocked them all shut Is that right? Yes, most of them I cocked them in between the two before you cocked them Could some of them open or did half of them open or none of them? Oh, they all open they all Operable before the cocking they open they have gaps they just they're not they're not lined up, right? So my solution to that with my limited resources was to cock them. Okay, I was like, oh, no, it's cold out There's cold air shooting into my house. I'll cock it. That's how it went I think that was it. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Thanks Mr. Norton. Thank you So I'm incredibly sympathetic to everything you described It also living in historic houses and working in historic preservation I'm slightly alarmed that what you described is not going to be fixed by this immense cost of replacing these windows Have you ever had any sort of historic structure assessment or energy? Audit or something like that? Yeah, where they do the heat gun and they see where the heat's actually being lost and we're like, okay, and It was primarily through the windows, okay, that's With two new HVAC systems in the house and still unable to get up to 42 as well some of your descriptions of Like being able to see like chinking through your through your foundation and stuff Knowing that Oftentimes Windows are not the even old windows even even poor repaired windows Rarely account for the majority of heat loss in a home right usually through the roof It is yeah, and so both the attic and the crawl space have been insulated with spray foam, okay? Okay You just might have some larger issues at this immense expense, and I'm I'm saying this as a professional To someone who's obviously in need of taking care in wanting to and I totally recognize that But I I would want you before you move forward with this to recognize that what you've proposed to do today Might not actually fix your problems. Yeah, that's my concern with actually the alternative suggestions Yeah you know if replacing my windows won't work a storm windows not going to work and Fixing the operation ability of the existing windows is not going to work either So what I'm actually will know because what it will do is it will increase the efficiency? But if you're not losing the majority of your heat through your windows like it sounds like there's something else going on in your home What could it be? Typically, it's often lack of insulation in the walls. That's the primary factor for loss of heat in any home And what does one do about that with? Lathe and plaster That's always a great do the best they can with what they've got I suppose would be window replacement Right, I can't break open my walls. Can I? Yes Yes But what I what I'm saying is that replacing your windows might not fix your problem. You might still have huge energy bills and so I think that thinking about the Storms and maybe Doing a cost-benefit analysis of what the storms and the repairs that staff has recommended Might be a more reasonable option and then thinking about where your actual heat loss issues are so I've done my homework on this I had someone come out and do a heat assessment. That's why I insulated my attic in my crawl space Okay, and that's why I sealed the leaks with caulk and plastic as best I could on my own I don't have the luxury of spending the $20,000 on storm windows to then spend 45 on windows I don't have that luxury so Okay, you know, I again I do have a house about the same age as yours 1886 and I I when we talked about this last time I had some skepticism about the data showing that repaired Historic windows with storm windows would be effective but so I did some research before tonight's meeting and If you go to the National Park Service website where they talk about historic preservation They point out a 2002 study confirmed that installing a storm window over historic window can achieve similar Thermal performance to that of a look new low e window and that study was done at Lawrence Berkeley National Labs if you use a Very trusted source such as this old house calm, you know It was reading there how to repair sash windows and I can tell you I've done some of the repairs myself on my windows Some are very easy and you can do yourself. You don't have to wait like the glazing is very simple and I've done that I built some of my own interior storm windows, and I've had some commercially replaced Depends on what level of ability you have and yes, if you're a single mom with two kids I understand who's gonna have time for that, but a lot of this could be hired out to a simple handyman But this old house said a single pane double hung windows for the 19th century Don't have the best of reputations They could be notoriously drafty full of rattles loosen the joints or you can simply refuse to budge But as a number of studies have shown a number of studies these windows are If these windows are properly weather stripped and paired with good storm windows They can match the performance of new double pane Wind it you windows for much less than new ones cost and you're saying that expense is a significant issue for you And I understand I think if you can get the same performance for less money You're gonna do yourself a huge favor when I had my energy audit He said yes, your windows are horrible. Don't replace the windows put in storms I don't know what your energy audit said, but I'd go back and read it because Even if that's a primary source of loss of heat it may still benefit you economically to Put storms and have them revamped. I'm just I'm just saying I don't know Yeah, yeah, absolutely I think I read the article that you're referring to when I was desperate in the dead of winter trying to fix my windows So I know exactly what you're talking about the first source that you cited I Would love to read more about that. The second is a for-profit television show So I can't really I can't really take that to heart. However, I do have Information from any energy star gov saying that single pane windows replaced with double pane can see it 22% savings whereas a single pane with a storm window over it is a 10% savings and that's a government website and I'd be happy to offer that information I do Appreciate the idea that that it's about cost savings for me because it really is I mean at the end of the day It's a one-income house. I love living in my neighborhood and I would hate to be priced out, right? That's not what we want. We don't want normal people priced out of nice neighborhoods And I don't think anyone really wants that but It all seems a little bit like a gamble doesn't it I mean there's a lot of mites Being thrown around. There's a lot of maybes. There's a lot of You know, I weighed all my options. I looked at all these options every time Jennifer asked me Did you talk to this type of contractor? My answer was yes. Here's the bid that I received I have looked at all my options. I've had the energy rating done And and for my home that I loved so much. This was the best possible scenario that I could Figure out None of us are window restoration experts, right? No none none in the room. So I guess we're all just operating off of the best information that we have, right? Are you are you? Right, but you don't repair windows. Do you? Okay, so so I wouldn't call you a window restoration professional So yeah, so we're all just making the best assessment of the situation that we can Knowing that there are an impossible number of variables here and no one really knows the answer because every website has different information so Yeah, that would be my response to that. I've considered everything and I was very frank with Jennifer and our email communications About why I decided against certain things I was trying to be as honest and transparent as I could because I'm a human Who really only has limited resources and I'm trying to make the best judgments. I can't for my home I can certainly appreciate that I am a Historic restoration architect. So while I have not physically repaired windows I have been involved with many projects where others have The the Interior Secretary's standards, which are the standards that we are supposed to uphold here on this commission is kind of our whole point are pretty clear about About windows being important and that historic fabric and we've got a home from 1878 was it something like that 18 a mine. Yeah 1886. Sorry. Maybe maybe it's Rick So a house that's been around for a pretty long time We've got a professional restoration contractor that you've Connected with that could potentially do this work Storm windows have a very long track record of being Successful in historic preservation Whether you get And I tend to agree with Commissioner Norden that you may have a bigger problem than your windows based on what I'm hearing but The the storm window would be something that would be Appropriate to the historic home. It's a landmark house Which for better for worse means it's got a higher standard that it has to meet then another home that doesn't have a landmark with the storm windows you would potentially save money over the replacement and That would actually qualify for it's for a tax credit. So you could come back in here with the work with the receipts from That storm window replacement and we could approve it and you could send it to the state and get a credit for Something like 30 you know some percent it's 30 percent of the cost of the actual work that you could claim on your taxes So it would be even yet more economically advantageous to do the storm so I Am still feeling like this is not Something that ought to be discarded. I think I think yeah, absolutely. I think if they could put in the storm windows before winter came I Would be all for it well At the same time the home has been there since the 1800's and it's been an office since the 70s Yeah, the building has been there for that long and to say then in absence of a handful of months I Sorry, I Understand your position, but I don't feel like I could support an argument that says this material should be lost for the sake of Six months the materials not being lost I would like to restate there are small children living in the home that don't have free reign of every part of the home without coats and socks and shoes And I think disregard of that fact is Harsh the storm window replacement or creation cannot happen until winter is almost over or spring That's the fact Commissioner Jacoby Yeah, I'm you've lived in the house like two years three years something like that two and a half years Yeah, you know how the office managed to survive if it was kept at 40 degrees in the winter time They had baseboard heating which I Took out because it was unsafe for my kids. So different heating system You think your heating system can keep it up at the old system did well, I don't know I don't know I tore the house in January Before we made an offer right it was toasty in there It was there were space heaters in every room and then the baseboard heaters were going but I do remember it being warm in there, which was part of Confusion about this whole thing they made it livable somehow for yeah hundred years before you were there Well, yeah, I guess livable is the well They managed a viable commercial establishment before you were there for for years and before that it was a house It was the beam is rowing house and I can tell you about those folks built it too, but They did manage to find it make it livable somehow and I'm wondering what they did that you're not doing unless it's the change in the HVAC system that is inadequate or or something. I don't know I don't know I'm not entirely sure I haven't changed any of the structure of the home I do know that it's it's drafty between the first floor and the second floor There are lots of different rooms and so when possible I always keep those doors closed right because that is the most efficient way to heat the home But I haven't changed anything structurally about it And I don't imagine adding more heat to the space would make it colder my only answer is a I don't know. Maybe they lived in the cold Any other questions for the applicant? Thank you. I would appreciate your time. Yes. Thank you for your time Okay, so with that I need to officially open the public comment section of this Is there anyone in the audience who would like to speak on this matter? Sure, if you come up approach the if you would just state your name and address, please I'm Kyle Schultz. I live at 601 Collier Street. So the greenhouse just across from Lizzie We have an equally old home. We have double-pane windows as those windows were somehow approved I think in 2017 before we bought the property. So In any case, we just had to put a new heater in and the Boulder County requires that the energy efficient heating system now and so Alternative versions of heating aren't really up to code. So I just wonder if any of that is being considered in this in this discussion because we are required to Have these HHE systems that are very very pricey. So That's my only comment and again, you know, we we all bought these houses knowing their historical houses I grew up in Pennsylvania and in a house that was built in 1850 and I know what it's like to be cold All winter and it's not a very pleasant thing, right? Cold and damp in Pennsylvania. We have the rain, which we don't have here And I just think we're a lot of young families here Coming to this community. It's really important for us to live in these homes and to be part of this community But we do have to modernize and we have to adapt and I know that that goes against preservation that's against the the word itself, but ultimately it's not very Feasible for some of us financially. We don't have millions of dollars to do all of these things and time we're raising families I'm working full-time You know getting a contractor on the phone like even just for a simple thing. We're having some plaster repaired I mean it takes months and to get people out there and Yeah, just to keep these things in mind about young families moving into the neighborhood and and trying to balance your goals with Our goals and making sure that we're all Taking care of these homes That's all I have to say. Thanks. Thank you Anyone else? No, okay. I'll go ahead and close the public comment And leave it to the Commission for any further discussion. I'm gonna call in Commissioner Barnard first. So For the sake of discussion, I would To see where we all are I would move that we approve the application Okay, I have a motion to approve the application and a second further discussion As maker of the motion Sure, I I Just really believe we have to deal in a world of reality and I understand I'm a very big supporter of the secretary standards But I think that you know in a real in a real world We have to deal with people who have homes and I really like the way that this application has been developed I read it over the weekend and I think there's a real effort being made to do what can be done Within the scope of what's realistic to be done And so I think we have to we happen, you know, we we we are a commission. We're not a rubber stamp We don't just say, okay, boom. No boom. Yes, whatever we think about things and we make decisions Based on how we think they're gonna work I think we heard some opinions already and what people feel based on their own experiences So my based on my experiences and my understanding and my expertise to why I'm here I Would ask for support of this motion Further comment This is a very difficult decision because we clearly all want to live in very livable homes We want warm children. We want this to be affordable and affordability in Boulder County is crazy even in Longmont And I'm torn between The desire to help as soon as possible with the data that I've seen that says Equal amounts of comfort can be provided more cheaply in a way that Historic that maintains historic preservation That's what the data that I'm reading online says and I'm not trying to be cold when I say that I think I don't want you to be literally cold I think it's very important. I think You know you point out that safety is a consideration because of Old glass well when you move into Do you ever move into a new historic home and plan to replace all the glass because of safety issues? No, you understand that's part of the house and that it has benefits with the beautiful Poor nature of the glass and it has some drawbacks it is more brittle and it requires more maintenance and Moving it to a greenhouse is not going to make it safer in your in your family. I don't think but There's lots of ways you can look at the data and you can shape it and point it in the direction you want but the the data that I see that seems to be least biased is Frankly what I'm seeing online and again, I encourage you to look at the National Park site Service site on historic preservation And I think that we can achieve the same goals With comfort for less money By doing restoration rather than replacement. So I'm leaning towards Not approving this For that reason not because I don't want to see you live there not because I don't want to see you uncomfortable But because I think you can achieve the same level of comfort more cheaply meeting the historic guidelines other Commissioners yeah, there we go Okay, commissioner Sidley. Thanks. I I Thank you for saying that Rick. I'm and I really appreciate all the things that you're trying to do I'm as far as reusing the windows and Replacing like with as close to like as you can Those are all wonderful. I am and this is really It's tough. We have denied similar types of applications in the past I am Every time I go to any sort of meetings conferences Windows are always the biggest topic Once they're gone, they're gone if it you know gets moved to a greenhouse and Something happens to them there. They're they're done. I am I Don't want you guys to be cold either. I really don't I am I think that that's awful to hear those kinds of things I am I think If one person has said that yes, they can't start until fall Yeah, um, maybe that's not the person to go to I and I'm sorry I have not called a bunch of people to see like, you know, who's busy who isn't busy what kinds of resources out there I think before I approve any sort of Replateful out replacement I I would really encourage you to just make more calls and maybe you have I am But I guess I'd like to see more denials, you know, what do you mean? I am I just once those windows are removed out of that house, they're removed and I You know, that's just that's just like one of the biggest things that we hear in preservation And so I just I'm having a real hard time Saying yes to that so the other comments For my part You know, I couldn't support approval of the application I think we as a commission have a very clear mandate to follow the secretary of interior standards The standards are really super clear. We have a path forward to Improve the energy efficiency of the home in an appropriate way. That's more economical that's that is a win for everyone and That is the path that's established for this and we have at least one contractor that that can do it and perhaps there are others and if the issue is simply a matter of time then you know in the big picture of What happens ten years from now with a landmark house? Again as it's already been stated that once the windows are gone. They're gone. I think we have a clear mandate. So Those are my comments With that unless there are no further comment, I will call for a vote so we have a motion on the floor To approve the application and we have a second all those in favor of approving the application, please say hi So we have commissioner Barnard and commissioner fester all those opposed They so the the application or the motion does fail So I will need another motion I'll move to deny to accept staff recommendation and deny the application Okay, I have a motion to deny from commissioner Norton second it and a second from Commissioner Jacobi any further comment Seeing none, I'll call for a vote all those in favor of denial of the application please say hi All those opposed Okay, so by the same score we have the application is denied four to two we would strongly encourage you to go out there and get those Stormwindow quotes and and then come back and and show us that you put the storm windows in and we can approve a Tax credit for you and you can get some more money back and I think it will Steve I have a question for staff if I may Sure, I guess that's okay Glenn you and I have had some back-and-forth correspondence on the question of last resort and When when is a decision of different commissions? Like the Planning and Zoning Commission is a last resort commission if you don't if you don't If you don't agree with the decision of planning and zoning your option is to go to court you can't go to the city council No, I don't remember it that way if they're the final decision-maker like a variance Then you go to the spirit court other than that you appeal to city council Okay, so the that the applicant here has a the choice of either Going doing a bunch of other stuff or appealing this decision to city council correct I'm gonna make sure the applicant knew that Right, thank you. We do appreciate you coming in here. I know this is not what you wanted to hear, but We appreciate your time Okay, we will move on to our second item on the agenda Which is new business an update on the steam and sugar factory sub area plan from mr. Chacot Just as real quick introduction. I think we are showed you or came before you with a Presentation maybe two years ago We've had some stops and goes with this project primarily because We started there was no interest in this area and now there's a lot of interest in this area So we've tried to mold the plan to kind of meet what Developer interests was showing us and so we have a draft that is being reviewed by staff at this point But we thought this was a good chance to come before you so I asked Tony Chacon our redevelopment manager to present what we have today And then ultimately we go to the Planning Commission will give a formal recommendation and then on to city council Great. Well, thank you and welcome Get your mic turned on My name is Tony Chacon, I'm the redevelopment manager for the city and in conjunction with that I also run the urban manuel authority for the city of Longmont and As Glenn mentioned one of our major projects is trying to get The preservation of a significant portion of the sugar mill if not all elements of the sugar mill because if you may be aware Parts of it have either crumbled already or have had fires associated with it So in that regards, we're see what we can do to move forward with preservation so I'm here This is called the steam or sugar factory and steam plan and just let you know sometimes we Use different terminology their people will refer to it as sugar mill We've been advised it's a sugar factory But it didn't explain how on earth the road has always been called sugar mill road. So just let you know So to this day, there's still confusion on that but in reference to this plan, we're talking about the sugar factory I will refrain from talking Substantially about the steam area because I believe your interest is primarily with the sugar mill property itself and what that entails So we'll be focusing on that as part of this presentation so Here you can see a layout of what we're I have identified as the sugar mill redevelopment area It includes Properties beyond those associated specifically with the historic buildings. It also extends out to Martin Street portions out there in Primarily because we do have development activity that's starting to take place in that particular area And then we're also going out to the intersection of third and chem Pratt Because we do have some development interest at that location and just let you know why we would look at bringing those into This project or this project area is they have the capability to start generating revenue that we're going to need to make this project work so Some elements of the the plan the sugar factory plan that and I'm talking about the plan now that the city is putting forth It's highly visible historic icon, which you all know that Operations ceased in the early 1980s. So it's been Basically sitting vacant for that period of time Not totally true. The current owner utilizes for his tinkering So all the buildings are filled up with all sorts of equipment and such that he works on So historic structures are still standing in varying levels of of Condition and if you notice they didn't say in in levels of structural integrity because Regardless of the brick falling down It still has structural integrity because it's actually a steel framed Member that the bricks effectively just filled in the voids between the steel members there So all the bricks could fall down. You would still have the skeleton there It's underutilized as approximately about 200 acres of Undeveloped island in total and that's all those properties. I've been talking about and With it, there are several what we consider large undeveloped areas that really offer a great opportunity to generate development around the historic buildings then also Help us produce that revenue that's going to be needed And of course is within proximity to the historic downtown area So some of the challenges, I think the photos alone most probably give you some idea about the buildings that we're talking about So just let you know that Conditioned there up upper right corner that that's actually the interior of the main factory building And that condition is on all three four floors of that that building So it's a pretty significant problem Some some of the area challenges annexation so Contrary to what a lot of people think Those parcels where the buildings are located and that that large parcel just to the south where there's the metal shed and the outdoor storage Those are not within the city limits currently and there's been a lot of reasons that have been put forth as to why The city doesn't want to annex it at this time The number one concern is the city then would have to take on responsibility for public safety and code enforcement There's environmental contamination and unstable soils So We have been working with EPA. They've done significant sampling in the area They've done some phase one and phase two work and asbestos survey And the estimate right now to clean up the property including the buildings of asbestos ranges from 30 to 50 million dollars So it's not cheap now the question would be why would you look to preserve those buildings with that cost estimate? Well, the reason is even if you demoed it you'd still have to incur a Significant cost on the asbestos remediation. You just can't knock it down. So And on the other side of the equation too is if it starts falling down and gets exposed to the Elements we have that possible problem regardless too. So that's why we feel it's a little important to start focusing on this area right now Their demolition removal of the internal building equipment There's just massive equipment in here that has to come out There are boiler tanks as big as this room 20 to 30 of them and they're all on upper floors Nothing's on the lower floor. It's all on the upper floors There's two large boilers that used to fuel this plant They have to come out and all this equipment is laden with this asbestos insulation product on it Other challenges, of course, we have the rail tracks immediately adjacent and the sewer treatment plant Those make a wonderful environment for housing development Historic building reuse is unknown at this time. So Given its present condition, it's really hard to figure out what you can put in there We've had ideas ranging from markets Farmers markets to just general retail markets restaurant space Hospitality possible hotels and so forth, but right now it's up in the air And so without any prospective tenants, it makes it a little harder to move forward with any development at this location And believe it or not our development standards don't necessarily align with the vision of what this area could be So for example street wits Our current development requirements have these masses street wits when we're trying to create a tight knit community That would promote pedestrian activity and so forth Lack of access and infrastructure. It's virtually non-existent There is one large main sewer trunk line that runs through the site But beyond that there is nothing on the site that could serve as any kind of development So that would I'll have to come in and large mining and wetlands area so the southern part by the rail tracks is actually part of mining rights and They have those rights for the next something like 10 to 15 years to actually excavate so The question is how do you go about? alleviating those conditions So opportunities though, so I just taught all said talked about all the bad stuff So let's talk about the good stuff the plan looks at So again number one preservation and reuse of the historic buildings We feel as staff it is very critical and I would contend that the community is behind this It's critical to try and preserve as many of those and restore as many of those historic buildings as we possibly can okay, and Just for information if you're not aware the plant was actually built over a number of years and added on to so there is no single architectural element on any of those buildings they're all Have a distinct period of time and a little variance accordingly Connectivity and enhancements to the open space in st. Vrain. We see that in our planning effort to Better get across the tracks down to the st. Vrain Creek Right now. It's pretty much landlocked accordingly Looking for incorporation of sustainable practices Whether that be energy or whether it actually be the type of building materials. We're trying to push long term Adaptive reuse or reuse long term on some of these buildings that would be built Possibility of a visually appealing gateway into the city Even though it's well into the city limits it really is the first visual you have of Longmont from the east Center of social and cultural activity. That's what we're looking for Agriculture and the historic education and programs and so one thing the plan looks at is how can we build on the history of its agricultural base and not necessarily having Production of agricultural product, but some support or educational component That would bring that to the attention of the general public. So, yeah, we're talking about Making this a nice part of the community, but we also want people to understand it did have a history associated with it Improve connectivity to downtown right now. Now the rail tracks are a big obstacle Towards that Really the only way you can get downtown is go up to 3rd Avenue and then down 3rd Avenue and at that particular location There the traffic speeds are such they're not very conducive to bicycle and pedestrian movements. So that would be one factor in this plan And then qualities for Qualifies as an urban renewal district and tip funding. So we have done a blight stir what they call a condition survey now It's also a blight study and the area Believe it or not qualifies as blighted and Therefore we can expand upon annexation to the city We can expand that area into the existing urban renewal district or create a separate distinct one for that particular area And with that then we would be able to access what is known as tax increment funds that's effectively the month the Taxes that are generated Above what is currently collected as the development proceeds and we believe On full build-out it could bring several it could bring excess of about $80 million that we could work with to help make this project happen So again the sub area plan priorities, of course, you've heard this housing and so the plan wood is looking at Promoting a diverse range of housing affordability. So I don't want to say it's affordable housing But we we need some elements of the lower income housing as well as some of the higher income housings to allow them to balance out transportation as Noted we need some better connections between the various Main roads in that general area And that includes of course trying to work with the railroads to figure out how we get across the railroads or The notion has actually come out the possibility and it is reference some in the plan that the possibility of negotiating the railroads Relocating somewhere at some point in the future We haven't started that yet, but it's a hope and then development This connectivity talks about primarily to the development opportunities not only at the sugar factory area But the steam area in that there is high level of development interest in both those areas right now And so what we don't want to do is create these islands of new development that are not Integrated with each other and so that's what we're promoting as part of this sub area plan Community is Basically building into Any new development these active spaces for people and culture and arts is one element in that and then sustainability again Is trying to work towards a sustainable environment? Just let you know one thought we actually have from an energy standpoint is the proximity to the wastewater treatment plant is such that you can actually get heat off the pipes That actually can serve a community there, which is rather interesting. So again sewer plant has a negative connotation, but actually may have a favorable and maybe not just towards The development there, but if some agricultural elements like greenhouses and stuff were built into the project That would be a good source of heat So as I mentioned Development requirements are such that it kind of imposes some challenges to getting The vision built in this particular area. So the plan talks about some proposed code modifications Number one is increasing the allowable building heights There are restrictions that effectively limit Housing to about five six stories, but there may be interest Well, but if you have affordable housing and he adds them on all the time for me We stand there with our hands going oh, and if you do this but generally the building height Limitation is really challenging and particularly as it relates to the factory itself because that factory Actually stands higher than what a five or six story building would be so that's one thing we're looking at is building heights most probably More just a little less restriction in the steam area because it's at a lower elevation But we're also looking at it on the sugar factory also So consolidation of the utility easements into the right-of-way so right now for example the city's Electric utility in addition to right-of-way asks for a five to ten foot easement outside the right-of-way and So what happens is your buildings actually have to be set back farther than what you would like to create this pedestrian environment So that's one thing we're looking at narrower alternative street designs Either reduce or eliminating the parking requirements Because one thing we don't want is a massive sea of parking surface parking and the cost to build Parking garages is astronomical right now. It's about $40,000 a space so the other option is let's see what we can do to minimize the parking need and capacity there Regional storm detention and water quality so we have a great opportunity in that the city owns Land on the south side of the rail tracks That's a sandwich between the rail tracks and the st. Vrain and Actually provides a great opportunity to put in a high quality wetland area and so we're looking at that Permit consolidation of smaller parks and plazas so within the code There is a requirement for developments to provide public spaces and so some of these don't make sense on smaller Developments and so the idea is let's figure out how we Collectively put them into one location so that you have a one acre or two acres space for people and Then we've we're looking at the possibility of a regulatory overlay district to give us more specification to the type of product and how it would be laid out and then We the plan has a recommendation that we the city visit the Metro district ordinance So right now the Metro district ordinance does not allow that district to encompass residential or include residential Unless it's less than 50% of the square footage of the commercial Which effectively makes it impossible to utilize it in any reasonable capacity. So That's something that we will be resurrecting. Hopefully with the city council at least for a discussion And you would ask three what's the reason for that? Well, that's one way We could build all the infrastructure and not put a significant burden on the back of the city Infrastructure and funding that's covered in the plan We're looking to identify needed area-wide public infrastructure improvements. So the plan does detail a roadway network generalized roadway network for example within which you would do lay the utilities It talks about public pursuant public-private partnerships What that effectively means is that we're out there partnering with the developers where they bring Maybe three-quarters of the equity towards the project and then the the public entities primarily the urban renewal authority would bring maybe the other third Looking at the potential creation of a special financing district whether that be a Metro district or other such as a general improvement district And then again incorporate the area into an urban renewal district that would get us to the tip funding and Then also pursuit of environmental and infrastructure grants and loans from foundation state and federal agencies and for example The federal EPA has a grant to help fund remediation The caveat being that the municipality actually has to own the property and Of course, we don't own it right now So for example, we'd have to figure out a mechanism to be able to pursue those funds But there is some money up there out there and it's little bits here and there You know, it could be through the historic funds that are out there if they choose to pursue that route And so it's critical so every few million dollars helps. That's the way I'm putting it. I Have the donation pan in the back on the way out the door. Yeah So The plan also looks at some land-juice character and urban design elements Historic restoration and reuse and promotion higher density mixed-juice development That would hopefully lead to some level of affordability Diverse housing provide a diverse range of housing Providing varying levels of attainability and I put their life cycle adaptability so as One ages and They don't need as much space or if they need additional space for a new young one They have the means of somehow adapting that to accommodate it and so for example Some housing that's being built now. They they effectively built a large closet Space into the house that can be converted to an elevator to allow older Persons to be able to get to the bedrooms for example Yeah, yeah and so Employment opportunities so this most likely area would most likely get an MUE designation which is mixed-juice employment and With the term employment the primary emphasis is try and create and bring jobs into the area there a variety of public spaces Urban agricultural elements which we talked about human scale and walkability green infrastructure and sustainable and energy Innovative storm water management. Those are all features that are outlined in the plan and Then on the mobility side Emphasis on pedestrians and bicycle facilities and I do emphasize that is most probably one of the biggest elements on the transportation that we're really pushing as part of this plan Doesn't mean we won't have vehicular traffic, but we're trying to design it. It would be designed in a manner to Minimize those impacts for example Provide multimodal circulation and connectivity There is the thought that can we possibly extend either bus service or When rail ever comes rail service to this particular location Reduce parking demand and capacity enhanced connectivity to the various streets and greenways and Then pursue and incorporate public transit and micro mobility measures and then pursue at grade or grade separated crossings of the rail tracks so again, that's where we're trying to figure out how to get up over around the rail tracks there and This is the developer that's currently one of the developers that's currently looking at this particular site This is just kind of a general conceptual idea Ignore the Italian architecture Well the story the the design for this group actually was out of Guatemala City And so thus you can imagine their flavor for architecture Right and so but yeah, it's you know It I think it does give a generalized idea of how that area could become a robust and active part of the Longmont community with that Questions and comments and you can send them to my email that's posted up there We could probably bribe Glenn to get it get us your email, but thank you Thank you glad to answer any questions. You may have let's see Commissioner Norton, did you Thank you Thank you so much for your presentation and for the Materials in our packet. I actually really love the direction. This is going and Actually a lot of the things I love about it have nothing to do with the historic preservation, but I I feel like Longmont is really thinking in like some very Contemporary cutting-edge like urban planning ways with trying, you know smaller streets more mobility and so I Really like this direction and I also Appreciate the challenges that the sugar factory poses and I appreciate that that is still a concern that we Maintain that because it really is iconic for Longmont. So that's all I just think this is really cool Let's see Commissioner Jacoby Thank you. Yeah, two comments. I guess I'm I'm not a planner. I wish I was but you mentioned that wide streets No But wide streets and then the setback for utilities as a hindrance for walkability But all of our downtown has very wide streets and then quite a setback to the sidewalks Before we get to the property Proper for the homeowners and it's quite walkable and I'm trying to think what makes that walkable Despite the wide streets and the setbacks and I'm thinking it's the trees and The heterogeneity of the neighborhood were so close to retail and mixing retail with housing in very close Context might make it walkable despite wide streets and setbacks and whatnot So that was the one thought the other thought was when I shared with Glen a while ago just the tin shed There was some talk a while ago about making an indoor athletic arena And I thought what a perfect purpose for a huge tin shed But make and that could be part of the public space, you know You know and who knows maybe you could even put some solar cells on the top of it Make it renewable energy so that and it just thoughts on the thing. Yeah, if I can respond to that So yeah, right now the city manager is in discussions with the developer about that potential reuse of that building There is one option The intent within the plan would be to preserve as many of those buildings as possible But so that would include the tin shed, but it can't we can't say that the tin shed could go away But there is an opportunity to maybe even preserve a portion of it because if you're familiar with it There's a it's kind of a two buildings put together They're the northern portion is a little bit smaller, but it still has that Kind of architectural image So there's there's options relative to its utilization and not to say dismiss that that would be an important element or not The plans would accommodate it In place or some modification therefore, but it's truly in the interest to try to preserve it if possible Missionaries Sibley No, you lost you He buttons So first of all hurry up because Because this sounds like a really fun place to retire and I only have so many years I'm not teasing I'm the other thing is I come from the Detroit area Which as anybody knows never had any issues with blight or anything. So that is a little different than here but I used to do a bunch of tours of the eastern market area and This makes me think of that because you know, it was you know, beer factories and cheese makers and you know and all these different things and You know in some places there's actually people working and selling stuff in retail But then also there's all these factories with these little tiny narrow streets What a fabulous place and and a lot of that stuff is being redone Has been redone. I'm and so I look at this like oh my god to have that monmont how exciting So I I love this. So thank you. And if I could just add to that This actually this project would be the first project in Colorado that preserved one of the sugar beet plants all the other ones are getting torn down because they cannot find any Biable reuse for them. So that's why in part. We're strongly encouraging Reutilization of these buildings. It's definitely an iconic rune. What what kind of jobs would you envision happening there? If that's really a primary component well, again, you know, we've talked about kind of the Agricultural theme and so one thought is that we go out and look for some of these ag research firms So for example, there's a there's actually an internationally owned seed company in Proximity it's called Magno seed. They're owned by some Swedish firm large company And so it could we'd be looking at the possibility of trying to attract a Single user or two or you know, maybe a handful that are involved in seed research Not necessarily Monsanto, but I I understand I said no, no, but But there's that element For you may not be familiar, but a couple years back We had urban land Institute do what they consider what they call it technical advisory panel and that was led by a the individual from Colorado State University that It was involved in the National Western Stock Show Project and to tell you the truth we're using that it's somewhat of a model for the energy Component because they do that they use the sewer heat But having that tie in to CSU and their research component is a good possibility also so Of course, there's most probably going to be a lot of like retail trades Hospitality trades if we get a hotel and stuff like that, but we do we would still like to pursue some of these Higher earning and professional jobs in the area there And I think the premise we're working from is if we can get that building cleaned up and restored Then it makes it easier to go to those type of groups to say what do you think because then it's like Oh, yeah, I can see the vision as compared to the one slide. I showed you which is yeah I can't see the vision because of the holes in the floor and all the equipment down there Yeah All right commissioner Fenster Yeah, has any consideration been given to Using the facility the premises for education and teaching Would there be any schools for example in the Greater area that would be interested in utilizing the facility Well, we're in conversations with like the the community colleges and CU CSU Nobody necessarily wants to build new facilities for education But there could be elements where we create the space that could be utilized in some capacity and invite those persons to participate one idea that has come to mind for example is There's a group out of Boulder that operates like urban gardens and what they do Is they provide education to the community and particularly youth on what farming is about how to go about doing it? And what you can do with some of the product that you raise and stuff So that be an education and in that vein then we would be looking to work with the St. Vrain School District We've talked about it could it be an agricultural innovation center To some degree as compared to their other innovation, which is technology, right? Yeah So yeah, we definitely want to figure out how we integrate some educational components into the area So not agriculture, but another really large Kind of adaptive reuse and development project is going on in Trinidad with an arts district And so that might be a really good model. There's a lot of public-private Partnership money involved in that as well in historic preservation. That is a Dana Miss Dana's last name Thank you. Yes, it's too late in the evening Dana Crawford's involved in that so there might be some other good models I'll keep all of my ideas to myself because ideas are a dive a dozen, but I know you need like executable stuff Let me just say yeah, any of you have any ideas Definitely throw them our way because right now we're trying to think of anything possible So even if it's the most outlandish idea Gladly send it my way. I'm also not outlandish ideas The less outlandish one that I would say is especially to see you bolder in such close proximity Yes, we have a huge ag and you know a really big ag history, but we also have a really big on space industry Here and there's a history of that not only in the state, but you know smaller connections with Longmont Um Those folks are always looking for space so that those might be some potential partnerships. Um, I'm Like my urban planning. I'm on the periphery looking in but I know those folks exist My other question was going to be as exciting as all this stuff is Some of the ideas about like hotels and music venues and you know these these bigger things Can Longmont sustain that like can we If we build it will they come or is it do we have studies on that kind of stuff? Well, I think it let me hospitality first is first of all the hotel industry is such that They're not going to build if they don't feel they're going to be able to fill the space is number one That's the corporate entities. However There are boutique builders out there of which we're having one build one in downtown here that we never thought would come to the table and So there are a lot of those type of enterprises that are looking to basically build, you know A hundred rooms there abouts which could be built into a facility like the sugar factory So hospitality. I think yeah, I think people We can easily fill space if it's built On the other side like anything related to culture Performing spaces things like that I think a lot of it's going to be based upon the scale of it and what that niche opportunity is so You know, I don't think Longmont personally could ever Take on the Denver Center for poor for for performing arts, right? I mean competitive wise you're not going to win but If you look at for Collins for example, they've become the hot bed for small indie bands Touring Colorado right now. It is the number one Touring city in Colorado for small bands and that's because they have a multitude of smaller venues that they're able to provide for those those parties so So we're not saying the sugar mill necessarily have some big facility, but We believe it has the opportunity to have some elements that could kind of Broaden our capability to host those type things You know how much square footage of Existing even potentially usable building there there is of hand 200,000 square feet That's not small. Yeah, although a Lot of that under its current structure, especially in the larger building It's really not full square footage because it's got big open void areas for three stories So they're not just wall-to-wall Concrete basically However, when they redo the building chances are they're going to fill in some of those voids and get that that space they need Great. Thank you. Any other questions comments? Really appreciate you coming down here tonight. No, you had to sit here for a while So but this is really great to get this information out to us and and we certainly appreciate the commitment to Preservation as you might imagine. Well, yeah, and I appreciate y'all having me here, especially since Glenn said I had to be here We are Trying to host tours we've gotten most of the city council through There might be opportunities if you're interested to take a walk about It's a climb because they bring you all the way up and all the way down, but There may be some opportunities open up. I think The person has under contract would really like to have eyes on the site and so you know what we're Dealing with but I don't know if anything's being scheduled now, but we'll Yeah, I mean just by a display of sort of head nodding as everyone generally interested in that I would expect Yeah, so okay an adequate amount that yeah, absolutely if we had that opportunity. I think we jump at it Great. Yeah, yeah You mentioned that this was the next step was a lot of next steps But eventually getting to the planning and zoning commission And then to the city council, so I guess my question is what role does the Historic Preservation Commission have in all of this Well, ultimately When we annex it and they want to designate the site that would be your role But as far as a land use plan that's really planning Commission City Council's so we love your input but We don't need a recommendation I guess Excellent. Thank you. Appreciate that Let's see running through the rest of the agenda. We do not have any prior business. So that leaves us with simply any comments from HPC commissioners anyone else have Something they'd like to add mr. Commissioner Jacobi at the risk of meeting the meeting longer we over the last half year we've talked about code revisions and We did we've talked a little bit on the side about the conservation overlay that the Historic East side is trying to put forward and I did mention that it's been difficult To practically use well the Historic East side is pursuing a conservation overlay and now they The current roadblock and I wasn't at the meeting, but I've gotten some input and some folks here where is they have to come up with a plan check fee of two thousand two hundred and fifty dollars on top of money that they've already acquired to send mailers to seven hundred residences to notify them of The plan to go forward with a conservation overlay now the overlay plan has been on the books For 26 years and it's never been used and this is what I was saying. This is making it unusable the This they're gonna go forward to City Council is the plan And ask for the fee waiver But that's solving the problem. Maybe if City Council agrees For the East side we need to fix the conservation overlay. I think So I was thinking I would like to make a motion That we recommend to modify now the city code. Let me back up that the city code Talks about development to a large degree. It doesn't talk about not developing You know, that's not what code's about and so it set up It mentions in many places that 501 see threes get exemptions but neighborhoods aren't 501 see threes and what unfortunately we don't fit in under an umbrella organization and There are also exemptions for affordable housing But there's there's no mention for a way for Historic neighborhoods to move forward here. So I would like to make a motion that we recommend to modify the city code While we're talking about redlining and changing the other code make a recommendation to modify city code to allow the planning director to also be able to waive the plan check fee for city designated neighborhood groups that are in good standing that have no regular sources of Income such as homeowners associations Because the East side the West side most of the older neighborhoods that could use this have no source of regular income And this is not practical for them to use So I think if we could get that added to the code now I the code I looked at the fee section and it talks about again 501 see threes and what not it says That commercial structures may not be eligible Talking about structures for building but may be eligible when other In under other provisions of this code if we put this in just the conservation overlay portion of the code That the director has the authority To waive that fee it would be much more approachable for multiple neighborhoods So what I would suggest because I don't think this particular Point of the agenda is appropriate for that is that we talk about potentially putting that on the agenda for next Months discussion so that staff can that would be fine Have a little bit of a educated response and we have a time for about it right into this time for debate and so on so I don't have any problem doing that that would be great I would be happy with that and at one point to think about also is I Should I recuse myself from a vote in such a motion? Because I am working with the East side neighborhood to get this approved But we are working through a different pathway We wouldn't be using the code is going to take a while to change and the neighborhood doesn't want to wait And they're gonna go to city council, so should I be recusing myself in the vote? I don't think so, but I leave that up to you, and I'll go by everyone else's judgment on that But what we can talk about it the next we can talk about next me My gut reaction would be no because it's really just a discussion that the HPC is having about whether or not we think the As a commission we want to make a recommendation to somebody else who's gonna have to act on us because we don't have the power to Do it in the first place, right? Okay, great Okay, thank you any other commissioner comments No, okay Thank you all We do not have a city council rep here with us tonight, so that leaves us with a motion to adjourn Moved by commissioner jacobi and seconded by commissioner Norton all those in favor of adjournment. Please say aye We are adjourned. Thank you