 Welcome to what the F is going on in Latin America and the Caribbean Code pinks weekly YouTube program of hot news out of the region in partnership with common frontiers council on hemispheric affairs Friends of Latin America Interreligious task force on Central America Massachusetts peace action and task force on the Americas we broadcast weekly at 4 30 p.m. Pacific 7 30 p.m. Eastern on code pinks YouTube channel You can also find us on Apple podcast Spotify telegram and at radindymedia.com Today's episode is Brazil's presidential election goes to a second round. I'm really pleased To have two guests join us today. Both were on the ground in Brazil on election day October 2nd Joining us from Brazil today is Camila escalante a costume news and Joining us from the u.s. Just returning from Brazil is Craig Jardula of the convo couch I'd like to give the audience just a brief background before we start our conversation So here we go Brazil's presidential election is headed for a runoff vote Electoral authority said on Sunday October 2nd after president Jair Bolsonaro's surprising strength in the first round spoiled Lula in Nassio Silvas hopes for winning outright with 99 point seven percent of the electronic votes counted Lula was ahead with forty eight point four percent of the votes Versus forty three point three percent for Bolsonaro the national electoral authority reported this on Monday as Neither got a major Supporter majority of the support the race will go to a second round on October 30th Several opinion surveys had shown Lula who was president from 2003 to 2010 Leading the far-right Bolsonaro by 10 to 15 percentage points ahead of the October 2nd vote The much time to result dashed hopes were a quick resolution in a deeply polarized election So welcome both of you and let's talk about this this deeply polarized election Which came down to neither came it it achieving greater than 50 percent and Basically 48 to 43 percent much closer I think than any of the three of us had imagined going into Sunday October 2nd both of you were there. I'm sorry. I was not able to join you and was really looking forward to Sharing the the observation and experience on the second with all of you, but I'm really happy both of you are here today with us And so where should we start? So we maybe have a little bit of background of what the Context of Brazil looked like prior to October 2nd and then a discussion on on how things actually unfolded on the second maybe can Camilla you could Give us a quick background as to The lead up to October 2nd Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, I think but a good place to start is in 2016 we witnessed the coup against Dilma Rousseff and that was a you know Very important point because people see it here as you know, the first coup against the Brazilian people You know followed by that. We saw Michelle Temer Absolutely slaughter You know the Brazilian state that continued under Jair Bolsonaro, which was the second coup against the Brazilian people in which former president please Ignacio Lula de Silva was He was jailed Which prevents him from running in the 2018 election. He was already a pre-candidate for the workers party And you know, that was a formal thing. So this truly is a case of you know, the oligarchy and the far right and numerous individuals within different institutions, you know getting together and barring their political opponent from running for at a time when he was polling as the most popular potential candidate to run in 2018 as president all polls Said that Lula de Silva would actually win if he were to face off against Jair Bolsonaro or anyone else in that race uh, so he landed himself or he was Taken to prison a federal prison in Curitiba for three 580 days during which You know, the workers party had to They had to decide another candidate. It was Fernando Haddad who today is a A candidate for governor of the state of Sao Paulo and someone who's just you know, really just not as popular Lula left office During his two previous mandates as the most popular president According to surveys in the history of brazil the highest approval So, you know, people were prepared to bring him back to the presidency when When Dilma Rousseff was coot And so, uh, you know, there were a lot of slogans that came out around that time 2016 Which were like, you know, brazil Urgent lula is brazil or gente Lula presidente Those sorts of chants that were you saying me to bring lula back to power um for you know, numerous reasons, but You know, because kind of flagship policies were poverty alleviation and uh, you know, kind of bolstering the state industries um And institutions in order to work for the benefit of the brazilian people It's something that we've seen work very successfully In bolivia and something we've tried to highlight as kaos had to news But what a lot of people don't know is a lot of those same types of policies Were applied here in brazil under lula's government and lula had a very, uh, good relationship with ugo chavez Christina kitcher and all the other, uh, you know pink tide leaders of her continent in the early 2000s And so, you know, that's the sort of thing that people wanted to see back. They have been saying, you know, Uh during this campaign period which launched on august 16th officially That they want to see the refrigerators full once again They want to be able to dress the way they used to dress and have nicer clothes They want to be able to afford gas be able to vacation. They want leisure time People want decent salaries and with that dignity and they say, you know, people are juggling Like three four gigs, uh, you know precarious type of work Not very strong salaries And and you know, there's this uberization of the economy that people have been talking about a lot where young people Particularly young men find themselves working as delivery food drivers That's literally what a whole bunch of people do in this country And so people understand that it's not acceptable unacceptable Uh structure for an economy and there's not a whole lot of opportunity for young people So, you know, there's two Different uh candidates here. We also had, you know, some third party candidates that have played a role as well Uh, but you know, the two were louise, Ignacio Lula de Silva who represented, you know, bringing back those policies that tried and true that, you know, worked for the benefit of the people And the the failed policies specifically economic policies of gerbil sinaro Who has In the polls gained a lot of resentment There's a lot of people who have said in the polls that they would never in any circumstance Vote for for bolson aro and that's those are that's what's, you know, indicating to us that going now into the second round As you kind of said Bolson aro actually won a greater share of the vote than anyone had predicted lula received about, you know About what the the main pollster is ipec and data folia said he was going to receive But it was a little bit of a surprise that bolson aro seems to have Picked up some of the support that uh, siro gomez a third uh, a third place was supposed to be third place in the polls that actually he came in fourth uh to a woman uh named tebet And it seemed like siro gomez's points went over to Went over to bolson aro when a lot of people on the left An analyst of the workers party had already Suspected that they were that that siro gomez was in some way supporting bolson aro by trying to frame himself as alternative So, um that being said I'm just trying to summarize here because they know we don't have a super long show But uh, we saw that result on sunday on monday morning the pt Campaign coordination hold held a meeting and they talked about how they're already they've had already spoken to Numerous parties and candidates and figures to try to receive to get their endorsement for the second round That's going to take place at the end of the month And then in the last two days we've heard that some of those endorsements have been secured that includes the party of siro gomez and uh tebet woman who came in third place, which is about four five percent Of the vote and you know lula and his campaign are You know strategizing right now bolson aro is doing just the same They're looking at that big Abstention the people who didn't vote and going to go after them the people who are undecided for the second round And numerous groups such as evangelical and other christian groups um And other people that they would like to target because it's you know, going to become very Strategic at this point to try to get every last vote And we're going to see a lot of fake news and a lot of rumors and a lot of attacks Uh between you know, the bolson aries says and the you know, the sort of pro pt or pro lula Um sectors and we're seeing that unfold on social media right now um, you know a lot of interesting things calling both bolson aro and lula satanists Um saying that bolson aro is a freemason among other things So that's kind of what's happening right now lula is kind of back on the campaign trail at the same time today He held um a big rally in San Bernardo de Campo, which is his hometown with the abc metal workers It's really important and you know, it just goes back to what what lula even stands for and what he comes from Which is the trade union movement that he is one of the greatest trade union leaders labor leaders of our time alive right now in the americas That's his background and that's actually the background of the foundation of the workers party It's not about you know all sorts of random things I don't know a lot of people in the u.s. Have tried to Compare the workers party to for example the democrats in the u.s. That absolutely doesn't make any sense whatsoever When you look at uh, you know, a lot of the the candidates for the workers party come from Union background or student union background They come from labor and lula was a very important figure of that in the last few decades And so that's where he started He's sort of starting his campaign for the next four weeks is there with with the labor Sorry camilla, there's one thing Interesting to me that you that kind of leaped out that you said kind of people are voting for A return to the economic policies they had when lula was president 2003 to 2010 food and their refrigerators Access to better paying jobs to afford and a more of their necessities This is one of the things that has continually come up Throughout all of these elections and I would share with the audience that the three of us speaking today have Served as election observers either as international observers journalists and our work has overlapped many many times across the americas I'm really honored to say that and that I have gotten to know the two of you Much better over the course of the last year and a half But one of the things I think we could all three Agree on as we've watched elections unfold from bolivia in november of 2020 all the way through Uh this past um sunday october 2nd People are voting for national sovereignty natural resource sovereignty And governments that are proposing an economic plan that benefits the majority of the citizens And those economic plans range from anywhere from one step Left of center being more social democratic all the way to revolutionary left is become economic plans And it's it's it's a consistent theme I I feel and um And it will be really really fascinating to see how These campaigns unfold between now and the 30th of october it seems to me but brazil To me But how they're going to vote ultimately, but that's a that's me hoping you know as a white person in the north not a brazilian So craig you have you were on the ground october 2nd you your work specifically focuses on Electoral observation and specifically the technicalities and the procedures that other countries constitutions And shrine and often contradictory to what we believe is democratic voting in the united states So let's talk about what you saw on On october 2nd. Yeah. Yeah, I mean Me and fiorella put this on the map quite some time ago Obviously, you know, I get educated from you ladies and what goes down in the global south and it's always a pleasure to follow And get such an understanding. I did predict that uh boston arrow would make it to the second round You know, I couldn't put my finger on it before I went and you know I have a theory on why maybe he did get to the second round But a lot of the reasons that were told to the states the conservatives why they go boston arrow crazy I really didn't have it I don't think they had any effect on what the actual decision making was going on from the brazilians down In brazil, uh, and that was evident when I went there the things that are important to the people in the west aren't necessarily Important to the people of brazil and I you can see it clearly. There was so much homelessness people digging in trash cans, you know, and uh Um people saying that they used to have bread and eggs and milk in their refrigerator. Now they ain't got nothing Uh, and it was evident to see that in fact that of all the last six countries. I went to I saw more homelessness and poor there and you know lula Uh from what I know, you know from being a westerner was always a champion of the poor He'd always, you know speak about how we can get food and resources into those people's hands and When I visited the favelas that's what they had mentioned that before in the past lula was a champion of the poor Their kids didn't have to share an egg or eat crackers for dinner Back in the days and when balsun arrow became, you know, president that had all gone away and all that money Who had been directed into other areas also, you know, I mean, I I don't know I'm still learning a lot about brazil, but I understand my country and my uh, uh, I don't want to say the necessary that the intelligence communities and what goes on and their involvement in jailing lula It was you know, we had gotten the proof right there So I understood there was an involvement from the united states Going to brazil it was the same as far as what people are voting for not only just for national sovereignty But resource sovereignty because a lot of the resources in brazil are shipped out of the country You know, there's like six or seven multi national corporations that are now taking all these resources And they're being shipped away while the small farmers being driven off their land and big agriculture has taken control of the situation So, you know, we concentrate on the process making sure no matter what that brazilians decide That brazilians choose. Thank you for sending me straight. I am a boomer And looking through this process was very interesting because it was very different than a lot of the other processes We saw in nicaragua Colombia for that matter where they don't have a handmarked paper trail However, they have a dre system, which I would never ever Stand behind I would never endorse a direct recorded Electronical system is what brazil has but their system is open source So in other words all the candidates all the parties they have a right to look at the software The machines are not connected to the internet I went into a polling place when it opened and I went from room to room And I had my internet on to see if any of the machines Would would catch an internet service like we was easy to catch in the united states None of the machines were connected to the internet. They weren't plugged into the internet whatsoever Each machine printed out a tally showing you that it had zero tally zero votes on it at the very end I went back to the same polling place and it had the actual mark results in which they post on the door So even though balsunero has made this claim and it's a claim he made to the system that is the same system He won under it's very different when donald trump when he has his complaints Donald trump complained because the system was turned upside down. They had a drop boxes nats mailouts Uh this and this nat balsunero had won under the system. It was the same system he won on So for him to complain about it now seemed a little bit hypocritical And like I said, it is an open source system and and it's a transparent process process is as whereas Where the vote is cast it is also counted It's not taken off to another location and counted and that's something really really important So we were able to see this system in play Like I said, you can't 100 trust a dre system But it seems like they had all their checks and balances and when a lot of brazilians have faith in the system And I have faith in the system I would take this system over the united states system any day of the week So the process itself seems fair balsunero won under that system So it's hard to see him have a gripe on it But I did going back to the electoral system itself I did say that balsunero would make it to the second round for reasons. I don't think I played a part So that's what I'm curious to try to figure out because I do feel Going back to when When a jailed lula had an interview with glenn greenwald something he said stuck with me And I kind of saw that evident when I went to brazil He said that You know glenn People at the airport would see these indigenous people these poor people for the first time getting a chance to get on a plane and fly And they get to experience stuff They never got to experience again And you can see the working class kind of looking them in the middle class look at them with disdain And I don't know if that played a part to why a lot of people voted for balsunero But I did find it very funny that every single uber driver I talked to every cab driver I talked to the majority of them were for balsunero So here these guys are working in a gig economy probably driving that car all day just to get some food on the table But yet They would buy into the marketing and I don't know if it was confirmation bias Or they really believed the marketing that jula lula was a criminal because we'd say you know lula was acquitted on all counts Oh, no. No. No. He's a criminal. But I don't know if it's a disdain between the working class and the peasants and the poor people But balsunero did get a lot of votes and i'm still trying to analyze that and still try to figure it out Right now because there was 55 million votes. So that's a lot of the population And I did predict he would make it to the second round I thought it was a win for him that day that lula didn't wrap it up I still think lula was going to win But uh, these are some interesting things to analyze and some interesting things to look at moving forward to the last uh till october 30th and to get that second round This is interesting to me what your comment about working class versus poor So poor So perhaps can all of the poor people how is a demographic that needs to be pursued more By the working class. I'm not sure what I'm hearing is that is it because I know we have seen in other countries as People move out of poverty into working class into middle class They tend to forget where they come from that is not country specific. That's not culturally specific It seems to be what we human beings do Once we move out of poverty get into working class get into middle class you tend to forget where you came from And that's not a that's just a personal observation of my own That's not a judgment against any particular country political system or culture But what what is that it is that Is that did that I think it's I don't I don't know if that's like the how I would frame it. I think it's better Analyzed as you know regionally there are certain You know certain stronghold it depends on where people Are you know where the people are Based around the country then within like the state or even the city it depends on where they're located there It's not only about you know what their income level is but also like if they live in a rural area A semi rural area the periphery or the sort of you know the the urban center of a city I know these are all different Factors that weigh on the sort of you know the tendency for people to vote And also, you know Bolsonaro has done quite a job Of you know luring in certain people who are perhaps less likely to pay attention to the facts of his economic mismanagement by some of his rhetoric. I mean there's hate speech. There's You know racism and other forms of bigotry there that he really plays on because he knows that you know, there are several Areas of the country Sao Paulo is one of them where there is like a little bit of you know some currents of right wing extremism I mean in the state of Paraná and you know to the south of us even The state of The capital is Puerto Alegre there where there are neo-nazi groups and there are a lot of people who support You know Ukraine and NATO and so, you know, these are the sorts of things that you know They're not necessarily voting based on their own class interests. They could be people who are from lower class Background and make very little income, but they're actually being you know appealed to in a very you know strategic campaign or at least it's deliberate You know to play up on these things like Islamophobia the speech that's anti communist They say things, you know against Venezuela. This is what you know, brazil's going to look like brazil's kind of turn into argentina Um, you know with the hyperinflation that argentina is experiencing right now We hear a lot of that on talk radio on the big networks where they have right wing analysts They're really fear mongering and they believe that you know, they believe that that information you know those tall tales about The workers party leaders being corrupt specifically lula and tilma But they're also, you know, but they're also being brought in by a whole lot of other things And one of those things is covet, you know, the bolson are out took advantage of the fact That you know the whole this whole conversation was going on in the us about covet Um about vaccines or not lockdowns or not and things like that and he really used that to his advantage at the time when a lot of the people Even within the workers party that is a you know, a party of the masses It does have its own bureaucracy with a lot of people who come from the city some of which are middle class And so, you know, they might be thinking right now about the fact that they need to strategize about how from The campaign they need to be speaking to more regular working class brazilians and not You know continue to allow themselves to be portrayed as any sort of elitist because even in latin america A lot of left-wing parties are, you know, are kind of uh portrayed as elitist as a strategy By the right to try to say that bolson aro is like a regular dude He understands regular brazilians and things like that when it's, you know, absolutely There's no basis to that actually bolson aro's family owns over a hundred properties His immediate family not his extended family and they're all paid in cash Which is, you know signifies that it could be, you know part of some sort of Uh, you know mafia stuff. I mean quite frankly, there's a lot of illegal activity going on there as well as The people around him who own large areas of land So, you know, there's nothing relatable between bolson aro and his family and the people around him and the people who support him And regular working class brazilians But they want to put out that image and people a lot of people are buying into it A lot of people are saying that they don't even really like bolson aro because they can see and feel That the economy has tanked But they say the only thing we can do at this point to stop Communism and to stop brazil from becoming venezuela as they like to say Is for us to to give our vote to bolson aro even though we don't wholeheartedly support him So there's a range of reasons why why he's getting that support And this is something that currently the the pt has to sit down and this alliance of parties Which is about 10 parties who are supporting lula Formerly giving their endorsement in this election including some major parties like the posal The pesadobé and the prodigal verde They're all having to think about how to speak to the people And not let you know not let bolson aro to kind of have that you know that communication with people and And misconstru who he actually is but just not a regular person not someone that anyone in brazil can really identify with Is that trick is used all the time right like oh, you just sit down have a beer with george w bush The bush to campaign was that yeah, he's exactly So what do we see what what what are the two of you see camille? You've been rated explaining the coalition building and the and the messaging that has to Come out of the lula campaign between now and the 30th. What should we is there anything? else we should be looking for between now and the 30th of october and i guess top of mind would be oas and or uh the us nato What came from the secretary of state earlier this week uh about russia in the americas Is that going are either one or both of those issues going to affect the campaigning between now october? Well, I think that on lula's part um and from you know from the campaign's uh standpoint they have tried uh to the extent possible to kind of stay away from some Big issues that could be divisive or overly political quite frankly. They don't want to say too much It's safer just to go with you know With reiterating how successful lula's economic program was previously And a lot of people from you know who do work for for example petro brass Or in different factories who are members of unions and were the unions overwhelmingly You know support lula and the workers party They say that the only way to strengthen the economy is to invest in national industries national industries and say companies that were closed down Uh since 2016 by the two successive neoliberal governments first the coup on and then the second coup on which was bolsangaro And that the only way that um, you know the entire country can Uh recover and prosper is to have those those strong industries. And so these are the sorts of things that lula has been Uh promising and he he's going back to talking about you know the welfare subsidies and different programs that benefit Uh women and families and that's their focus. I think that they're you know really they have said In terms of internationally that they do want to have be respected by russia china and the eu and the us and also have a good relationship of all of the neighbors that includes venezuela and uh those sorts of things but he hasn't gone into great detail And you know for good reason. I mean he is he is popular for his domestic policies And so that has to be his focus however now You know, he does have to they do need to spend a little bit more time focusing on these different sectors Unfortunately, it is going to you know, just turn a whole lot of time over to this massive population of evangelical christians and to try to Take some of those votes away from bolsangaro and um Yeah, I it's one thing that uh, I I haven't confirmed this but you know bolsangaro I think has like part made a purchase of Gas from russia recently just before the vote he Um, you know lowered the price of certain uh, essential goods from the grocery store and things like that Also that people can feel temporarily relieved Uh from the financial hardship so many families are facing so that they'll think that the situation is not bad As it is, but I don't think that's going to work And I don't think there's enough time in the next now three and a half weeks for bolsangaro to just start You know giving out handouts Uh, just to flip these votes. I think it's I think it's going to be very difficult to achieve Whereas there's this whole like machinery behind lula very much. It's a it's a very sophisticated operation with lots of lawyers and advisors And he has received very important endorsements from essentially centrist center right even parties and and candidates and Uh and sectors of the of the country's oligarchy and all sorts of figures that you wouldn't expect To have seen support lula before have come on board. So I think it's you know I think I think it's a huge uphill climb for For bolsangaro at this point and of course the polls had said that he would have a much tougher time in the second round yeah so Craig you uh You and I were talking before we went live about what's that technicalities the the actual physical process of voting In brazil versus the united states and camilla you were mentioning bolsangaro buying You know cheap russian gas and getting gas prices down and And creating the illusion that the economy is benefiting the majority of brazilian citizens in the run up to the election I would argue we are seeing exactly the same thing unfold in the united states Being led by by the biden administration And let's kick craig. Can you just give us a quick? Comparison of what you saw in brazil versus what is playing out today in the united states with us midterm elections coming up in november because i think that's a really A big part of your work is being able to observe and critique foreign elections But also bring that knowledge back to you know a valuable critique absolutely of our own elections in the states Absolutely, and you know a lot of you know bolsangaro people who you know All we were talking about some endorsements, you know, uh Bolsonaro's got the endorsement of steve vannon and crew and that's like really strong Like he talks about that on the regular basis But you know, it's like when I when I was in columbia. I said guys You know you're in this run off now You're going here for the presidency. You have your your second round coming up You can have a petro supporter at every single mesa out there that can Report the results to eliminate a process of cheating as they move these votes along the bolsangaro people can do the same thing They have no excuses here. They can't sit there and blame the system Especially a system they want under so they can do that themselves So I would say well then tell bolsangaro to get his people out there Haven't met every single voting room and look at the votes and therefore you guys can get your own tally before it even gets Moved off to the next spot But I do also want to point out really quickly Aside from that that coming out of bricks bolsangaro did make a deal for diesel gas when it with lula Uh, not excuse me with uh, putin Coming out of bricks to get lower gas prices and whatnot I think in a gig economy right when you have a bigger gig gig economy And there's a huge gig economy in uh, sol paulo when I was there every so many uber drivers Everybody's running around delivering food. What not? I I think that if and maybe i'm wrong and you guys can correct me if i'm wrong But if lula can can can somehow address that people working in a gig economy You know i'm saying and somehow he can Find some relief for those people as far as when they file their taxes or whatnot Or find a way to concentrate on those people maybe pick off some votes there for people who are looking at that economic Situations maybe he can find some more votes over there as well I don't know why so many uber drivers were so supportive and believed in the marketing of lula being a criminal despite him being acquitted But it seems like an area that's ripe for the picking right there because they do look at the gas prices And they like oh look at that gas prices are coming down So maybe that could be an area that lula can concentrate when it comes to the economics As the people working in that economy and find some votes right over there as well Emily did you want to add something? Yeah, he has included that in his campaign. He has he has said that he would improve You know living standards for the brazilian people generally, but also ensure the rights of you know app and gig workers And I think that you know, there's a large Large section of the population here who don't haven't normalized that they don't think it's Normal for so many young people young men to be driving pizzas around for rich people for a living And um, so so I do think that that is something that he would address but he would not address it, you know Not only specifically to try to maybe implement some, you know push some of a You know structure for For making sure that there are some, you know better laws in place to govern over those sorts of jobs, but I think he would just You know get to the root of it, which is strengthening Uh, you know strengthening state Companies and industries so that people will no longer even have to work those because a lot of the people who do work those sorts of jobs Work other full-time jobs as well, and they're just having to work multiple jobs seven days a week They have a weekend gig. They have a night gig. That's been so many of the Uh, you know drivers that I've spoken to and so it's really just clamping down on precarity in general Um and ensuring rights of workers overall and that would uh, surely, you know at some point Help help these sorts of gig workers as well So the second round is october 30th. Where are the two of you going to be? On october 30th october 29th I'm going to actually be at a convention in Orlando speaking about election integrity So I will not be able to but I know they'll be all they're going to be talking about it there They were talking about it at the last Then I went to and I had to you know, once again, I don't know a ton about it But I know about 95 percent more than american people know about what's going on in brazil And I can explain to them what is going on and the importance of lula and why he is so popular there And what he has done for the poor in the past and how balsamaro has not so I mean Now that i've gone there and i've seen the system as well because they've balsamaro did complain that the system was rigged against them Even though he wanted the system and I can also point out and say no, that's not true. Are we able to witness the system? It's an open source system And it is it's going to be a fair system and I do think honestly that once balsamaro loses I don't think he's going to try to stay and maintain power regardless what you hear what's going on With bernie sanders and everybody else in our congress just trying to people distract people with all this bs I think you'll see lula win and I think you'll see balsamaro step away Maybe not gracefully maybe crying like a little baby, but I think they'll see him step away So craig's calling for uh craig's calling a lula victory later this month and camilla you're in Uh brazil now and you're gonna stay there No, i'll see you in a few days and i'll be coming back Okay, great. I believe and you know like you know our angle as kevs at june news uh obviously i'm also corresponded for press tv and reporting on this for press tv But you know first and foremost i'm the editor of kevs at june news and what's important to us is really just highlighting You know the project of the social movements because it is social movements that have been The most strong support base for the workers party and for lula's candidacy for so long And they have a much larger project than just electing This one person what they want to do is get this person in power so that they can start pushing from below And they have formed these uh, you know popular committees where people from different neighborhoods Or could be groups of artists or any sort of other agglomeration of people You know meet together in person it can even be online And they're discussing some of the most important issues and issues that they want to push from the base to uh to the government But you know these movements are quite large in comparison to what we see in other countries And they do have You know oftentimes in the case of the landless workers movement And some of the movements for housing against poverty Against evictions and to the right for food And things like that like they they have a very strong, you know ideological position And they actually in a lot of cases are to the left of lula And so they're going to have a lot of things that they're going to be fighting for And so this is something we would like to highlight Um, you know between now and the election. We've done a lot of interviews while I've been here some of them You know weren't able to get published before the first round vote. So we're going to be publishing that um In the coming weeks before the second round, but it's a really uh, it's a very interesting Um phenomenon that's taking place here. I do think that brazil is a model for the world It doesn't have an anti guerrillas government now and you know arguably it's not going to when Uh lula comes to power that he might not be the communist leader that Actually want he's no ugo chavez, but you know it gives an opportunity for Um, you know the movements that truly represent the interests of the people Begin to push from below. So that's what we're going to be covering We do believe that or I believe that lula will win and part of their strategy is of course using The these very robust movements as their foot soldiers in the campaign these go out every day. They fly or they sticker at Bus stops out in public plaza squares and they're speaking to people because they believe that we can't fight um, you know disinformation and anti communist propaganda and win this election solely by Creating means on the internet. Although that's one strategy and that's that's part of what they need to be doing Is disseminating information on social media? But that they do need to be speaking face to face with working class people They make up the majority of the country and you know trying to trying to convince them that it's only with a lula government that we're going to see the material conditions of the people improve and they have Their own strategies and methods for doing that they're having to sit down this week and devise You know a new plan for these final weeks and I believe that is very interesting And I think it will undoubtedly secure the win Well, let's let's finish this car continue this conversation after the second round election to be fabulous to have you both back and and uh, hopefully celebrate a lula win and probably You're both calling it and I'm hoping for it So let let's let's continue the conversation after the second round and And hopefully it'll be a celebration and deconstruct how how all of this Comes about and probably uh, and how it will affect the americas as well all of the americas So anyway, you too. Thank you so much for joining us for this episode it's always a pleasure to work with both of you and I just want to remind Our audience that you've been Listening to what the F is going on in lat america the caribbean code pins weekly youtube program of hot news Out of the region we broadcast every week on code pink youtube You can also find us on spotify and apple podcast and I also want to be sure To let you know about code pink radio which broadcasts every thursday morning 11 a.m. Eastern on wbai out of new york city And wpf w out of washington dc that project can also be found on apple podcast and spotify as well So thank you again to craig jargula of the convo count and amela espalante of costume news and We'll talk to you in a couple weeks Thanks so much for having us terry Thank you