 Hey everybody tonight. We're debating whether or not trans women are women and we are starting right now with hunter's opening statement Thanks so much for being here with us hunter. The floor is all yours Sure. Well first and foremost, I'd like to say thank you so much James for for me on and Svani, thank you so much for for initiating the debate. I think this is gonna be really interesting I figured I'd go ahead and just start with giving my definition of a woman and then I'll kind of just read my general opening The definition that I like to use is a woman is someone whose internal perception of themselves Aligns with what we culturally view as being feminine. So gender obviously is a social construct So that means we as humans created expectations behaviors and roles that we assign people based on their biology So we've chosen certain behaviors and roles to be correlated with biology But many if not most of these expectations roles or behaviors are actually socially constructed For example, the go-to example is of course, there's nothing biological about women wearing dresses or men wearing suits In fact throughout history kilts and tunics were all seen as masculine attire just by tunics being a kind of a dress and then Kilt's being really a literal skirt So this further demonstrates that people with penises don't choose to wear suits because of some genetic or biological reason But rather we as humans have correlated certain behaviors and expressions with biology and this is really important because Gender is more than just a social construct. It's also a socially constructed form of identity So the external social construct of masculinity and femininity Influence the way that we see ourselves. We collectively agree on certain characteristics We label as masculine or feminine and in shorter terms the external social construct of gender influences our internal gender identity In regards to that external social construct A good example is something like even like the game of football. It's socially constructed. It exists as a result of human interaction And even more so the foundational social construct branches out to socially constructed football teams And so now because of this external social construct I can now have an internal identity as say of New York Jets fan or something I don't ever even have to attend a football game to actually be a fan Maybe I just like the team because my dad liked it before there's no way to verify the legitimacy of this identity And I understand that this analogy might sound a bit unserious, but we respect people's professed identities in other contexts as well I think the most prevalent example is Christianity According to Romans to be a Christian if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead You will be saved for it is with your heart that you believe and are justified And it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved this demonstrates that the internal belief Influences external behavior so similarly someone might have an internal identity as a woman and this Justifies their external expression It will be silly to expect someone to quote respect your pronouns if you're making no attempt to externally present your internal identity However, the external presentation is not what holds the weight and ultimately justifies the identity So to be a Christian you must have an internal belief in order to be treated and recognized as a Christian You must express certain behaviors and characteristics Ultimately, it's the internal belief that justifies their identity as a Christian Behaviors are not required But if you're legitimate in your Christian faith, you will most likely strive to meet certain characteristics Similarly, if someone is legitimate and their identity as a woman is more than likely they'll strive to meet certain external characteristics And most people end up being comfortable with their internal gender identity But they may not fit into certain social roles all the same or certain social expectations So like many gender expectations, of course another cliche example, right is the the man working the woman staying home But yet many women aren't happy as primary caretakers and women have also brought unique benefits to the workforce and have thrived Outside of their gender role There's also been an increase in stay-at-home dads as men are also proving to be successful outside of their gendered expectations Had these people been forced to uphold elements of the socially constructed gendered expectations They would suffer from discomfort and mental health issues So while for some people deviating from socially constructed gendered expectations is enough others have Persistent discomfort and mental anguish due to the misalignment between the external gender expectations and the internal gender identity Which leads to dysphoria. So not only do conventional gender Expectations seem to be inaccurate. They're also leading to some harm Now an adult human female is the commonly cited dictionary definition This is the classic definition that aims to uphold the definition of woman as being biological hence adult human female However, we know that sex is bimodal meaning it's not a rigid binary as previously thought So it doesn't easily fit into two specific categories That means that attempting to define woman as fitting a biological criteria Leads to actually Excluding people who you would otherwise consider women. So maybe we're going to say chromosomes determine gender That's obviously a biological thing If so, it's possible Excuse me. How is it possible that there's one in 15,000 quote girls in Denmark who are born with XY chromosomes? They're raised as girls believe themselves to be girls and have primary female sex organs But if female includes female chromosomes, then the biological definition of woman would currently be Excluding people who have female sex characteristics Furthermore, it's estimated that up to 1.7% of the US population has an intersex trait adding up to 6 million Americans If the definition of woman includes female as in specific sex characteristics How many of these characteristics must be met in order to be a real woman? Is it the ability to give birth? What about infertile women or women who went through menopause? Obviously, they don't just cease to be women Are women generally of the essence to give birth but the biological definition still allows for women who cannot give birth? If so, why can't this exception also extend to trans women? Is it because perhaps Trans women don't have the female sex organs necessary to give birth thus negating her childbearing essence Well, one in 5,000 women are born in the US without a uterus that adds up to 1.6 million women in the US Who are still women despite lacking the very essence to give birth? One could argue that a woman is simply someone whose biological makeup is geared towards producing large or small gametes This definition would exclude women who suffer from a condition called Swire syndrome these women have fully functioning female sex organs except for ovaries Meaning that although it's rare there are some women who we still recognize as women Yet they lack the essence to give birth and their body is not geared towards producing gametes If the biological definition Somehow makes an exception for women with these conditions Then why can't the biological definition make an exception for trans women who've undergone sex reassignment surgery? They don't produce gametes nor do they have a womb yet We already recognize certain women as women regardless of their biological ability to give birth or produce gametes As soon as these questions are asked attempting to define a woman based on biology starts to crumble This definition would exclude millions of currently recognized women who have intersex traits cannot give birth or don't produce female gametes Finally, even when it comes to the practical side of things We don't really look at biology to determine if someone is a man or a woman We look at the way they express themselves and behave we determine who is a man or who is a woman on the basis of gender We already do this on our daily lives So in short defining a woman on the basis of biology excludes real women from the definition and Doesn't serve utility on a day-to-day basis external social constructs exist and can influence internal identities the internal identity is ultimately what holds the weight and Influences external gender behavior Thus defining a woman based on internal identity allows for a more encompassing definition and serves more utility Definitions are descriptive. We make definitions in order to better categorize and understand the world around us Definitions can should and do change as our understanding of certain concepts evolve Thank you, you got it. Thank you very much for that opening statement Hunter Avalon and If it's the first time here folks at modern day debate I'm your host James our goal is to provide a neutral platform so that everybody has Their chance to make their case on a level playing field if you haven't yet hit that subscribe button as we have many more debates to come You don't want to miss them. So hit subscribe right now and with that we're gonna get over to Sonvy. Thanks so much The floor is all yours on me. I can screen share So today we are doing that trans women are not women and the case for the truth of this proposition so right off the bat to arguments that Women are in fact adult human females is firstly we have adult females for other species We refer to an adult lion that is a female as a lioness and an adult lion That's a male as a lion It would be quite astounding if we looked at the other species that we study and had terms for adult females there But not for our own which is the species that we clearly study the most So the word woman is likely the best candidate for an adult human female another good reason that To to think that a woman is an adult human female is because it's the ordinary way that the term is used the term woman is used So dictionaries although they are fallible. They do lend credence to the ordinary way that people use terms So that's evidence that woman generally refers to adult human females But moving on a lot of people that in defense of the proposition that trans women are women have presented something known as the social view within the literature Which is that somebody is a woman if and only if she exhibits the social cultural or behavioral traits typically associated with females this view is pretty common, but The problem with this one more so is that if somebody does not exhibit the social cultural or behavioral traits Typically associated with females and they would not be women and this would obviously exclude some trans women such as But trans women it would also exclude punitively people that we would agree that are women So just cis gender women. So I think the social view fails on that account The next view is the self identification view of gender, which has been more pervasive to within mainstream media Somebody is a woman if and only if she identifies as a woman Obviously the problem with this definition is it's viciously circular. It's uninformative It doesn't tell us what a woman actually is and there's no trait that you obtain in reality just by identifying it There's always necessary and sufficient conditions to go through Another common self identification view people have been positing in order to avoid the problem of vicious Circularity is somebody is a woman if and only if she identifies as female So just Cambridge dictionary recently updated the word woman as to be allowed for this definition so the problem with this definition is Identifying as a female is not a valid identity in that it would be identifying as a biological falsehood The implications of this view would mean that you can identify as having down syndrome for example Which is chromosomal having certain neurodegenerative disorders Obviously, you cannot identify as things that aren't in accordance with reality, especially biological reality in this case Okay, this view is the gendered brain view This one has been becoming more popular among popular creators in this view A woman is a woman if and only if she has the brain of a female Therefore trans women are women because in their brains they have the brain structure of a typical female Obviously right off the bat not all trans women have the brain of a female Not even all cis women have the brain of a female and to conclude Brain sex does not determine gender as we know that many homosexual men tend to have brains closer to females than males So clearly conclusively the gendered brain view is false And finally hunters account of gender which I know he touched on in the opening statement that he has on his YouTube a little bit A woman is somebody who's internal perception aligns with what we culturally view as feminine Clothings like address behaviors voice all things that we would generally consider feminine and more typically associated with females There's a couple problems with this view. I think that even under this account of gender It's still not trans inclusive Not all trans women are women under this account like for example as I mentioned earlier a bunch trans women Or the movement in the trans community as to trans women do not owe you femininity Or radical feminists who are gender non-conforming who do not adhere to what we internal But they do not internally perceive Think themselves as what we culturally view as feminine But rather perceive things that are viewed as masculine and we would still punitively agree that they are women So I think this account fails as well and to kind of conclude here so we can sort of get into the debate I think that any account that you give of what a woman is is still not going to be Trans-inclusive fully unless you take the self-idv which has its own set of cases, but I'll conclude here and let us get started Thank you James You got it Thank you very much for that opening as well and folks want to let you know if you didn't know modern-day debate is also available on Podcasts all our live debates end up on the podcast within about 24 hours If you haven't yet Pull out your favorite podcast app right now find modern-day debate and that way you can listen to debates on the go It's ad-free check it out with that We're going to go into the open dialogue for about roughly 50 minutes And then we'll have Q&A at the end in case you have questions Submit them in the live chat if you at me at modern-day debate or if you put in a super chat Those go to the top of the list with that. Thanks very much Hunter and Sonvy. The floor is all yours Sure, so Sonvy thank you so much for your opening. It was I really liked it You started out by talking about like how we have adult females in nature as well Which seems to be I don't want to say an appeal to nature because I don't know if you're saying just because it's in nature Means this is how we ought do it in our society But this also seems to be again like a mix-up between sex and gender like you talked a little bit about some people saying they identify as Female, I don't know who says that I know that sometimes people will use those words interchangeably or differently for me at least I try to be really careful about Saying female when I am talking about the biological shit and saying woman when I'm talking about the social gender element So saying someone that identifies a female like I actually would agree with your part of your slideshow there because that is kind of Silly that doesn't really make any sense. Yeah, that one was from Cambridge I think a lot of people have been updating the word woman as to mean somebody with a female gender identity, but I'm glad we can agree there Yeah, yeah, the the main ones that you touched on though I think that we're we're interesting were the critiques of my definition specifically the one that's it's culturally relevant And I think that this is an interesting one, but I don't think this is actually a defeater at all I will concede this it is culturally relevant 100% just like I could well on just like I could be a Football fan here in America, but if I go to Brazil I can still be a football fan based on my identity that has been formed based to on this social construct here in the US But what it means to be a football fan here as opposed to in Brazil is different It's culturally relevant, but it doesn't negate my identity as a football fan Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. So with that definition Would you mind clarifying your definition of woman and how that would relate to that because it seems to be a football fan is Somebody who identifies as a football fan, but you do not hold that a woman is just somebody who identifies as one, right? Yeah, well, it's someone who identifies Has an internal perception that aligns with what we culturally view as being feminine. Yes So if there's an external view of gender, which obviously we have like we culturally collectively Agree on like this type of characteristic will be classified as masculine or feminine, right? So we already have that People are going to have an internal perception of themselves that is based upon a collection of External socially constructed gender Characteristics, right? And so with that that's going to form an An internal identity So would you say if somebody has an internal perception of themselves that more so aligns with what we traditionally view as masculine That they would then be a man not a woman That's how I would define being a man Yes, and usually I would also go about this is I think that a lot of this is like much more Subconscious too. I think that this that's why I try to touch on it on my opening about how a Good amount of people I don't think really think about gender. I don't think they I'm I was one of those people It never really occurred to me But yeah, it's I would define it as as such Yeah, and I think maybe maybe people don't think about gender But I do think they think about masculinity and femininity implicitly like oh, I dress different act different than other women around me So I think this begs the question of our masculine women women Yes, because it's about an internal perception not an external behavior I'm glad that you touched on that as well, which is another Misunderstanding this like oh, it's just a stereotype of what it means to be not really no It's it's not wearing a dress and lipstick that makes you a woman. It's like what I said It's you have an internal identity But if you identify a certain way odds are you're gonna take steps to yeah Probably present in ways that we culturally view as being like a gendered expectation or role Or behavior associated with yeah woman, right? I think that's what I was touching on is that you said an internal perception of yourself that you personally align with these feminine or these masculine traits So hence why if a masculine woman has this percept perception of herself like I traditionally like More of manly things than I do things typically associated with females then by your logic I feel like she would have to be a man. Well if you're talking about someone like a butch lesbian for example Yes, as you can hear the weird juxtaposition here because Butch lesbian Because of the fact that it's also the lesbian factor It still is actually on that spectrum of femininity because lesbian being someone who Identifies themselves right as a woman who was attracted to other women usually attracted other females. I would actually say But by your logic She would just be a straight man at that point because no she wouldn't because she's no no no Because by being a butch lesbian she has an internal perception of herself That still aligns with elements that are culturally feminine because a butch lesbian is still Encompassing a femininity to a degree. You're talking about a lesbian who presents in ways that are butch However, they still perceive themselves and identify themselves as women But just because you identify and perceive yourself as a woman isn't what makes you a woman It's if you internally perceive that you like these feminine Characteristics not like those things that you have an internal perception of yourselves that aligns more It's not just like I like these things. It's not oh in my in my heart I like wearing jean jackets. So I guess I'm a man now. No, it's a it's a much more subtle and I Would say like internalized sense of self that plays a role here in masculinity and femininity and whatnot But no being a butch lesbian Expressing yourself in ways that are butch does not negate the fact that you can still have an internal perception of yourself That can align with elements of femininity Take a butch trans woman for example the movement within the trans community that trans women in fact Do not owe you femininity we can have desires preferences thoughts feelings all in accordance to what is traditionally viewed as masculine It's still be women like would you agree then that butch trans women aren't women could you say that one more time? I'm sorry. Yeah, like You know what a butch lesbian is so there's a movement within the trans community that trans women in fact do not owe you femininity So a butch trans woman is somebody who feels that their internal perception is more masculine yet Their identity as a woman is valid. So would you say like a butch trans woman is not a woman? How is their identity? They said they don't owe you femininity isn't that most likely talking about a Expressing conventional views of femininity This doesn't really play much in with the internal perception because if they're identifying themselves as a woman That is encompassing of I having an internal perception that aligns with certain cultural views of femininity Because again, I think this is what's interesting about this Hold on please because this is what's interesting about this external social construct about gender is that there is contrasting Elements of both masculinity and femininity more so femininity like the fact that being like the quote-unquote bitchy girl boss Right is a feminine thing, but also being the super nurturing like tradwife is a feminine thing But these are arguably opposites So having certain collections or parts that you identify more so and then presenting differently These are two separate things having an internal identity versus presentation Yes, so with that being said so if they have an internal perception of any part of femininity They could claim to be a woman or are you saying there's a certain threshold there or? Yeah, would usually be like I don't know the exact threshold. I'm not going to sit down and be like yeah If somebody has more so characteristics aligned with masculinity than femininity and that's their internal perception Would they fall under man or woman? If they had more characteristics that were masculine as in their internal Their internal perception of Like masculinity and femininity was that they have more masculine traits than feminine traits They would view themselves as more aligned with cultural views of masculinity then yes, that would be my definition of a man Right. Yeah, so under this definition is why I think that not all trans women are women still because a Women would be a man to you. No, I just did you not remember that I just explained that So well, you just I just asked if they have more characteristics in their internal perception of self perception if you ask masculinity rather than femininity. Yes, but if you're a butch lesbian There is still a Sorry, I said butch trans woman. I see the confusion not butch So wait, hold on a butch trans woman Yeah Is somebody who if they are saying that they are a woman then that is someone who still has an internal perception of themselves that aligns with Some aspect of femininity, but they present in ways that are more butch This is like the Tom girl argument This is like when people say our Tom or our Tom boys now actually boys No, like they're a tomboy because they're recognized as a girl who likes to Present or engage in behaviors that are maybe more so associated with masculinity Yeah, I think this just gets here I think you're conflating Presentation here with like internal identity. No, like plenty of butch trans women have an internal identity of being very masculine They perceive themselves to align with more society's views as masculine rather than feminine yet They still identify it as women So I think the proposition will still be false because you said more masculine Identification than feminine identification would all you would have to go about determining how that goes about because Again, you can't if you're gonna hold on because if you're going to say something along the lines of They more so align with masculinity But they're still professing to be a woman I guess if you want to like make up a scenario in that case fine But no in most cases I would say Someone who is a man is someone who's internal perception lines with cultural views of masculinity and if someone is a butch trans woman So yes, they identify as a woman meaning they still have an internal perception themselves that aligns with certain cultural views of femininity Do you not understand that they can have a present differently? It depends on the case But if we were just your definition of woman is an internal perception That aligns with what we culturally view as feminine and then vice versa masculine for man So which you say that if somebody has an internal perception of themselves that they more so align with masculine characteristics and obviously we can't quantify this we'll just say more Right, no, no, no because sorry to start to cut you off But the thing is is if they have that then the assumption would be they would then be identifying as a man So someone says I have an internal perception that aligns with masculinity But I'm a woman that would be that would not make that would be a contradiction Okay, so just to clarify though that a butch trans woman then would not be a woman to you No, because by calling themselves a woman They still obviously have some form of an internal perception that aligns with elements of femininity Even if they're asserting even if they're asserting that their internal perception is more masculine Are they asserting that their internal perception is more masculine or that they prefer to present more masculine? No, that they're internal they typically like things and they typically their desires preferences thoughts Everything is more so in accordance to what society should use as masculine um Then hmm, that's interesting. Yeah, I would really like an example of that because Well, yeah, yeah, but if you're talking about somebody who says that they more so fit in these views of cultural views Then that almost sounds like it's a binary or a non binary individual somebody who doesn't fit into either category Uh neatly that's almost what that sounds like But I would love to see an example of somebody who says I internally align with Masculinity I want to present masculine. Why wait if they're presenting masculine. Why do they want to be referred to as women? Yeah, so I think I cited a Published paper on this in my presentation But the idea is more so that cis gendered women They can internally feel masculine still call themselves women validly and everybody putatively agrees that they're masculine Even though they have an internal sense of being Um, they're women even though they have an internal sense of being masculine So the idea is that trans women also don't owe you that No, they might not owe you a presentation But if you're going to have an internal identity, this is how my definition This is why my definition is internally consistent as well Is because we're talking about an external social construct in a way that influences an internal perception again, I What what's the example of the person who says that they Internally view themselves as masculine, but for some reason want to be called a woman because that almost sounds like a strawman that sounds like something you're making up because People if you have an internal perception that aligns more so with masculinity Why then would they want to be referred to as a woman? I cited a paper in my opening presentation Um in the journal of lesbian studies the do is and there maybe if we could go back, but she's always a She's always a was a woman But she's a lesbian trans woman in the lesbian community And so I don't think it's just something that's being made up It's something that's often discussed in the literature Especially those who support a more self identification view of what gender is does that make sense? Sure. Yeah. Yeah, no that and you can disagree with that view. That's totally fine You don't have to obviously agree with everything The people that I do I I well first of all, okay, so yeah, I would love to see that But you understand that it's a little bit Ironic that even if you want to say here's this one example where your definition Might not actually be all-encompassing which is fair by the way It's incredibly difficult to have a definition that is 100 all-encompassing You recognize that your definition is far more exclusionary, correct? Yeah, and I'm fine with that. I'm willing to concede that just as you're willing to concede. That's fine Wait, wait. Okay. Hold on because I'm willing to concede that if you want to get for that one example You gave sure then my definition might not be applicable there. I will literally Yeah, hold on. Wait, wait, please because I'm okay recognizing that there is no such thing as an all-encompassing definition However, my definition encompasses more utility and encompasses more people who are women So your definition Do you think that those people for example the the girls that I referenced that are born in Denmark with male chromosomes? Are they just Do you still view them as women or like? Yeah, I don't think that that has any bearing on the proposition are trans women women because even if the biological account of Female fails it still wouldn't prove that trans women are women It would just prove that we are unconvinced and we need something else. We need a new definition Um, but I'm sure we're not we're we're not just talking about our trans women women here We're also talking about the actual definition. Well, I understand that's the topic But we're also talking about the current definition versus a new definition So you support the current definition, right? Yeah, it has no bearing on the proposition at hand, right? I recognize that but I also for the sake of discussion even Grant that and it still doesn't prove all trans women are women because we understand that 99.2 of trans individuals do not have an intersex condition and we're correctly assigned at birth So I don't think it would prove anything but the point that's not wait an intersex condition. Yeah, what I would That has that sex not gender so okay. Well, right. So you have the burden is still to prove the 99 percent of trans women are they women? Yes, because of the internal perception which is encompassing not to mention the fact that we recognize internal perceptions like Excuse me, uh in other aspects of society as well Since the current definition here's the thing is you say that even if your current definition is disproven It doesn't prove trans women women. That's true by the way 100 percent However, in order to further make the point we need to compare the definition to the current definition and if we're looking at There's this definition of which includes trans women being women and serves more utility And is more encompassing versus the current definition which is based on biology Doesn't serve utility and excludes people that we would currently view as being women So how what would you take like severely cognitively disabled adult human females to be like they lack the parts of the brain Take hydra and encephaly, severe traumatic brain injury like whatever they lack the parts of the brain to have that internal reflection of themselves if they align like a coma you mean like What was that like someone in a coma like a like a woman in a coma like that could be one thing But like let's say from birth even right like Right. And so Yeah, so they obviously would not have an internal perception of themselves of anything of much else at all. Yeah Yeah, no, it would be a societal thing and that in that element They would probably be a girl or a woman and it would just be we would look at their genitalia and then we would have the Correlation of the social external properties that we kind of applied there And then that's that just like you might take well, hold on just like you might take this person to church And they're not going to have an internal perception or belief system of being a christian But what does this prove? Nothing that they're not christian Right, so in the case regardless, um, they can They might not have an internal identity. They cannot they cannot be women Yeah, they would you're right. They wouldn't be a woman based on the identification side of things So and then they would be a woman based on the social element We would probably categorize them as a woman But do you realize that this is special pleading from the original definition because the original definition was a woman Is somebody who's internal perception allies with the way culturally as feminine Which if we're going to throw out this because they don't have that capacity for an internal perception at all Then you would have to be refining the definition to include a second definition Which is a social aspect, but it's still a shift of what the original definition was Okay, so what's your overall point then here Do you shift to the original definition because the original definition of a woman with somebody who's internal perception Aligns with what we culturally view as feminine and now you're saying even if somebody hell doesn't have an internal perception of anything at all They could still be a woman under x definition No, no, no, okay from the one that you originally said Okay, sure So they wouldn't be a woman Yes in the sense of they would not have an internal perception of themselves if they're cognitively To the ability of not able to like have really a sense of self Then yes, of course um But this is also like saying a christian Is somebody who has an internal belief system that person might not be a christian if you take this Mentally deficient person to church, but you could still impose those social things So they might not be a woman again based on the standard of an internal identity But we would probably still what i'm saying is refer to them as a woman Because we would in that case impose these expectations Okay, so So it's that it's that just if they don't have the internal perception We would still impose it and probably assume it in it Okay, so in addition to a woman being somebody with the internal perception of what we view as feminine A woman is also somebody that we impose female expectations on to in addition to that No, i'm saying we would consider that person a woman why under your definition. They would be a gender Right, so so let me explain here once again You understand that I have already conceded that gender and sex are correlated, correct? So I recognize that there is an external element of gender Right, which influences the internal perception They would fit in the external part Because they have no cognitive ability to form a sense of self We that they honestly that you're right. They would be a gender. They would not have a gender But i'm saying we would all the same Refer to them as a woman not that they actually That's not that they please I feel like you think that this is like a gotcha when i'm just I I never said it was a Gotcha I just I just you clarified your point. It makes sense. They might refer to them as a woman Yeah, we might actually mean that they are going to probably categorize Yeah, so but in a lit there's a difference between analytically and pragmatically, right? So pragmatically we might refer to them as a woman for like social reasons or like for the most utility In treating them or whatnot, but you would agree that analytically. They are agender Analytically academic. Yes. Yes agender. Yes, 100 just like you might say like oh my child's like a christian They love jesus they might sit down something like that, but like they don't really have that internal perception They might not really understand this doesn't mean that at the end of the day a christian is someone who has an internal belief Yeah, okay, so like that person wouldn't be a christian just the same as that person might not be a woman But we would still impose those roles and expectations most likely and also most likely just refer to them as such Under um, I still think that the more more so the problem is under this view Anybody that is severely cognitively disabled or handicapped Lacks agender analytically at least no, so this is this is the So this is the coma argument You have a little bit of a stronger argument when you're talking about someone who might be born mentally deficient If you're talking about someone in a coma, I didn't mention a coma. I said handicapped and disability As if they were born with a handicap or as if they were yeah, like like take certain genetic disorders for example like severe chromosome abnormalities that cause a high end of down syndrome Things like that more so that would mean that everybody that meets that threshold of lacking Assertive self-awareness would lack a gender Just like they would lack any sense of sense of self or identity. Yes Wait, wait, wait, they would lack a form of identity So do you understand how identity works because you've been asking a lot of questions I'm gonna I want to ask you some questions now. Do you understand how identity? Works in relation to the external social constructs I think so. Yeah, I think I understand your definition of it Right. So do you understand that if somebody is really mentally cognitively deficient? They're not going to be able to form an identity in regards to really anything Yeah, so they would lack a gender is what I'm saying. Yes, but so you're not making a point You're just reiterating that they would lack a gender. Yes, they would they wouldn't have an identity They would also lack a sense of self that doesn't mean a sense of self is generally an internal perception You have of I don't know in regards to yourself. Whatever. Yeah, and another problem with this is that that would mean And before you let me let me finish this analytically that infants would lack a gender too Because now you can say that we impose it on them for pragmatic reasons to refer to them as boys and girls But that would still mean that because they lack the capacity to internally perceive themselves as x yz They would be a gender as well. I mean, everybody is born a gender technically and we just refer to them as girls and boys for Magnetic reasons. Yes, that's what I'm talking about with the external socialization that we correlate with sex And what I'm saying is that that's unnecessary. It's on it no longer Uh includes Women people you would consider women based on biology The sexual characteristics. Did you agree with what I said? That an infant would technically be a gender. Yes Yes, you can literally you can look up how the socialization of gender can take place a lot of the times and again I'm not saying this is some like conspiratorial like let me make my child, you know, whatever like It's much more of a subtle reinforcement thing. Yeah, I have two kids. So I've seen it happen myself. It just it happens It's everywhere But yeah, absolutely. But there's also strong evidence showing that by the time a kid is I think you've like six or seven They already have a pretty strong sense of gender and themselves in regards to that So yeah, tender is a form of identity in regards to a social construct just like other Forms of identity in regards to social constructs. I'm giving you examples of where this applies here Yeah, and so before you haven't really been an argument or a rebuttal you're just saying So based on your definition, some people wouldn't be women. Yeah I'm conceding like no, no, that's that's not what I'm saying I'm saying that in the discussion of oral trans women under your definition We'd have these x yz implications now. You can say you're fine with those implications But I think the you know, the majority people would say like We're not born a gender Okay, that's that's fine what people want to say Okay, yeah, people can say what they want. But again, it's like I was asking that I was just trying to understand if that was something you were willing to So I'm gonna say what you said earlier is just if something is Does just if my definition is not all encompassing and you can find a couple exceptions Doesn't mean that trans women are not Are a woman is someone whose internal perception aligns with what we culturally views being feminine It doesn't negate my definition And if you're going to say that because when I bring up the fact that your definition is even less Serves even less utility and is far less encompassing than mine Then you're right that it doesn't prove trans women or women But it is a little bit ironic that you're arguing that position when the definition you're trying to defend Is worse it has all the I don't have the burden of having an all-encompassing definition I never accepted that I would argue an encompassing definition of trans woman You did a woman that would it be a trans inclusive? So that's why I think that if there are counter examples that are post You would at least agree that not all trans women are women just most are at least Well, I would agree that a woman is someone whose internal perception aligns with what we culturally views being feminine Again, the example you gave me was like this this one time of someone who said their internal perception was masculine I would man. I would love to talk to that person and see how that even Works or makes sense But I think I still think it works or makes sense And like I know you mentioned the tomboy counter example and how that doesn't really hold And I think that it does because if your internal perception is Every thought every desire every preference is more so geared towards what we culturally view as masculine rather than feminine Right, then they would in turn be a man to you And maybe we can't be inclusive of every single thing But we can say most if most of your internal perceptions align with masculinity Then you would have to be a man by your logic You have a internal perception that aligns with cultural views of masculinity. Yeah, you'd be a man That's that's my definition and at least just to just to back up a little bit here in the context of this conversation You do have a bit of uh, you do have a bit of a burden here to defend the current definition because That's the definition. That's why that's the that's the current definition because if we don't accept my definition We go back to the current definition And if you're going to say what we do is we if we don't know what something is We remain agnostic back to the white all these flaws times 10 Seems kind of silly, right? If we don't accept something we just remain agnostic or unconvinced on it, right? So say you're not convinced of my definition. Um, I'm not convinced of yours So we would be agnostic on the proposition are are are trans women women, right? We wouldn't take a position either way if there's no clear understanding here. So that's what is, uh Okay Yeah, what what is your definition of a woman? My definition of a woman would be a female adult human female Okay Okay, so Okay, I don't know. I don't know what to say. I just I I understand that it doesn't mean that my claim is true But it also is like that your definition has the same problems You're trying to bring up about my definition, but your definition has them worse But I never accepted a burden to be make an inclusive definition of trans people you did I you want an inclusive definition of women on biology, right? Hence why we're debating are trans women women because you're assuming you're taking No, no, no, I want to I want to ask you some question to this question here You want your definition an adult human female to be as encompassing as possible of Women in the basis of biology, right of the biological characteristics Combined that the collection of biological characteristics to make it I don't want it to be anything Just how it functionally works is how it's going to work So the goal of a definition so then maybe I should hire to have an inclusive definition Okay, so then maybe I should rephrase the goal of definitions the reason they exist Is to try and be as encompassing as possible No, it's to describe concepts It's to describe concepts that and be as encompassing of those concepts as possible When we're talking about at least if we're talking about something like hold on If at least if we're talking about something as the definition of yes a woman or female We want the definition to include as many people who are female and exclude as many people who are not female as possible Well, that was definition, right? Like like when we look at what a triangle is like what is a triangle hunter? a shape But like anything beyond that because a triangle is distinct from a rectangle or Something go ahead. I'm just go ahead and make your point Like a you know three sided three angle two dimensional shape, right? So if we take something like that um, and then somebody posits a counter example like Oh, what about an obtuse triangle? I'll say those are included and then if somebody says what about a square I can say so sorry That's not included, right? So I have no desire for definitions to be inclusive rather than them just be functional and describing things Okay, so you want them to be functional and describing things. So your definition Fails in functionality. Mine doesn't So I'm not even talking about you have to understand here is my definite My argument here doesn't even need to be Trans women or women because of my definition, etc My definition accounts for people that you currently view as women More so than your definition your definition doesn't serve that functionality I would disagree with that because for example, um, I view A newborn infant as a girl and I view an adult human female who has a severe cognitive disability as a woman Yet you would say both of those individuals are in fact a gender not women That's just having a better understanding of the concept of gender. This doesn't actually Help your point at all. How does your definition serve functionality? How does your definition serve functionality if it what I'm trying to say as encompassing It serves function on what I'm trying to say It's like if we were to take a gender non-conforming radical feminist, like, do you know what that kind of is in the literature? Go ahead. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, so people who want to disassociate femininity and the social construct of femininity from females all together So intentionally these people adopt more masculine things and have more masculine perceptions Yet they're still consider themselves women. Um, so I I wouldn't see how you would account for this You keep derailing and like just moving to a different thing and not answering the question No, I'm like because you said You said the goal of a definition is to serve functionality and I'm asking describing things Describing concept. That's what I said in describing concepts So if you want to serve functionality and describing a concept as a woman being an adult human female But yet your definition doesn't serve that functionality Because there are millions of people that you would recognize as being women who have that biology even Who would be excluded from your definition? Nope because they would still be um females because chromosomes don't determine that But I feel like this is still irrelevant to chromosomes don't determine it then This is not relevant to the proposition are trans women women because even it might be depending on what what collection of biological traits Do you think makes a woman a woman? I don't think this is relevant to our trans women women, right because would be because if trans women have undergone sex reassignment Would you agree? We might have different accounts of this, but would you at least agree that there are males and there are females As far as sexual characteristics. Yes, like yeah sex wise. There is a yes We generally recognize two like okay types. Yeah, so yeah, so even with that being said um What makes a male be able to be a woman is the discussion right because even if I were to concede short Let's concede all of them aren't women. Um, it would still have no bearing on if a trans woman is a woman I understand that but the reason i'm asking you about your view of what collection of biological traits would would suffice to be a woman is because it could If we're talking about say a trans person who's undergone sex reassignment So if you're saying well for me my oh, I see what you're saying. Okay. Yeah. Yeah So you're saying for me my definition of woman is uh this type of biological trait this biological trait this biological trait Well, that might actually be applicable because we do have yeah trans women who've undergone Yeah, so just to clarify. Um, I see gonads genitalia secondary sex characteristics um What your sex is comes down to your genetics things like the sry gene? I've looked extensively into like the 40 plus intersex conditions, but the gammy view you kind of described just what I take Okay, so but then there was so it would again be relevant because we don't have the crisper technology to fully Alter your genes and therefore gametes yet. Um, and we also recognize that there has been a case There is obviously then some exception still in your definition that does And that's fine, even if I were to then can trans women that does not make a trans woman a woman Wait, wait, no because in this case we're talking about somebody who has a vagina because they have an So now they have an external female sex organ and they don't produce gametes. You just told me that that person would be a woman Wait, if they have a vagina but do not produce gametes The way that we would determine sex would be looking at their genes and looking at what developmental pathway They undertook right given that in the mammalian kingdom. There are only two gametes You can only undertake one or two developmental pathways, which are determined by transcription in your genes Okay What is how does that address anything that's in nature? That's how some things evolve You said that a woman you generally try to define as the gamete position but i'm explaining that The oh like in my opening I talked about the condition about the the swirer syndrome. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, we're Again, and by the way, i'm also recognizing right off the bat that yes, of course, it's rare But as rare as it might be You would still consider that I still account for it. So under Sawyer since Sears syndrome So why does that make sense? So why I can I can defend it really quick So under the biological account of what a female is There are only two developmental pathways a human can undertake right given that there are only two gametes So with that being said even if something blocks you from actualizing the production of x gamete That doesn't mean you didn't undertake the developmental pathway to reach that point So people with Sawyer syndrome It depends if they haven't just expressed as or why gene or not some do some don't some are fertile Some are not so you would need to present me a specific case with their um gene code And then I could determine if they're female or not But even so this has no bearing on the truth of the proposition. So it's not relevant Okay, you keep saying that but it does we already established it and you already Can I already explain the biology so like you and okay, so you're saying okay, so take somebody with Sawyer syndrome Well, hold on. Wait, because some of them don't have it. I would not call them One second just because I would not call them a female if they haven't expressed sry gene Right. Um, that's just the presence of the sry gene on the white chromosome But the expression and execution of the sry gene and its function if they have that they're not a female Is that clear if they have no okay, so if they have no ovaries at all Would you consider that person to be yeah, I didn't mention ovaries So sex is determined genetically those are secondary sex characteristics that can help us out, but they're not the main deterrent Okay, I'm sorry. I was still talking about the gametes point part. So maybe I misunderstood a little bit there So eggs are eggs are produced in the ovaries, right? But you can still undertake a developmental pathway towards the production of eggs without actually actualizing the organ of ovaries Right. So once again, your definition completely fails because now in order to understand who would be a woman We first have to establish who would be a female. So we have to gene test people in order to determine who's a woman How does this you realize people will call themselves a woman or express themselves a certain way Before they've been gene tested. That's fine. There's obviously a social identity form Of gender involved here, right But just just because there's further inquiry necessary or further testing necessary To discern a truth of the matter has no bearing on the truth of the matter Like if I were to show you fool's gold and real gold and they looked Be no typically identical. Are you saying that they're actually identical in terms of their properties? No, no I'm not saying because of the extra testing that no, no, I'm sorry My point is that your definition again fails in serving functionality Because on our day-to-day basis, we're not going to be gene testing people We're not going to be even looking at Obviously, I'm not going to be looking people's ovaries or their genitalia or whatnot. Um, yeah, which I never mentioned by the way but yeah, so if there is somebody who is Expressing themselves this way Is it possible then that that you you would most likely consider them a woman, right? You would refer to them as I think there's a difference between an inference and something that's actually true And this goes back to the gold example Like if I were to show you fool's gold and real gold the average human is going to look at those two and say They're both gold, right? Like because if they look exactly the same they're both gold We need further testing to verify the truth of the matter But we make inferences the same goes for female and the same goes for woman We might make an inference, but we know further testing is required to Determine the truth of the matter Sure. Okay. So then you do though recognize just before I go in my second. So you recognize then the establishment of certain gender characteristics though that are like separate from sex Like secondary sex characteristics, for example, is that what you're talking about? I don't know like social gender behavior characteristics expectations roles you recognize that as like A thing though, right that's separate from sex Yeah, gender norms exist. Yeah That well that would partially be gender that would be the external gender social construct So then you recognize there being something that exists As a result of human interaction that is correlated to biology, right? Because a lot of this gene testing thing boils Because kind of what you mentioned in your opening statement is wearing a dress correlated to biology Do you think it is? I think no, but you said You seem to agree with me, but I can't guess not anymore Wait, I said wearing a dress is not correlated with biology. Correct. And now you just said sex It does have a correlation. So which is it? Okay, I'm sorry Did I say correlated or caused because if I said correlated that would have been my mistake and my my Miss no correlated, right? Like yeah. So okay. Yeah. Well No of this whole conversation I've been acknowledging that gender is correlated with sex, but the correlation is our doing that's the social part We have a gender thing. We have certain expectations characteristics traits roles That we correlate with biology, but it's not But it's not true like like the blue and pink thing There's nothing inherent about being a boy that makes you like when there's nothing inherent about being a girl That makes you like pink just stuff like that. You're saying we assign those things to those individuals, right? Yeah, yeah that part I would agree with but with that being said I think another implication would be Societies differentiate in this. Some societies would have the opposite view of ours And would say that people that are leaders people that go out and be breadwinners are actually what are typically Casted as women and females. So under Under this view if you travel to say the tribe, I just mentioned the African tribe like would that make your gender change? Well, no because your gender identity would be based upon whatever cultural norms you were kind of socialized into Like you grew up with just yeah more or less. Yeah, I mean, it's probably not that simple But like more or less it just like I said Oh, like you can be a football fan But what it means to even be a football fan in brazil is literally means to be a fan of a different sport even But it doesn't mean that you're not a football fan as far as your identity in American sports, right? So yes, it can change and be certain like culturally relevant But that just further demonstrates that it's a socially constructed Thing that there's this entity this this collection of traits, right? So That exists separate from sex the correlation exists because of us So when you talk about like gene testing people and everything else that really does come down to sex That doesn't come down to gender So that's where I know we disagree. Yeah, I think that's obviously. Yeah, that's where we disagree on is the sex gender distinction and how that sort of applied Um, so you don't believe that there's a distinction between or what is your position generally on that because that might help us get somewhere here Well, I mean if the definition of woman is a document female clearly There's a necessary condition in there about what your sexual biology is but with that even being said I think that the definition you're proposing It would at least it would at least mean that gender is Relative to society to various societies. Is that correct? Maybe not your gender just the concept in general this external social construct or gender. Absolutely. Yeah It's a socially constructed thing That's why we have conversations about like what it even means to be a woman has in many ways changed over time, right? Yeah, so would you say like many more Conservative places that view a woman as an adult human female That's what the society generally views as a woman and that's that society's conception of gender Would you then say it's broader? No, because it's broader than that. It's not going to be like my neighborhood's view of gender Especially with access we have We have well, hold on. We have a general understanding of the external Points of gender like yes, we recognize what's masculine. What's feminine what we might label as being such That's going to we're gonna you're going to have knowledge of that outside of like your local community Right, right. So I can't even take like a Maybe a country if that would work better like small countries so if The vast vast majority overwhelming out of people in that country Directly tied gender to sex and that was their society's conception of gender Wouldn't that still make a trans woman in that society not a woman? Well based on their definition probably not but I mean right now we tie it to biology So right now with the current definition we have that's why we're having this argument, right? So we're arguing they might not define it that way, but you know what you might have over here I'm religious in the sense that I'm a Christian. So I have this identity. I have this belief internally But in this over, I don't know rural Isolated island right in order to be classified as religious you need to be involved in human sacrifice They might have different standards or different definitions you need to meet But that doesn't negate the identity that was originally built I think there's a little so do you think that a Christian is somebody who identifies as a Christian? Like I think I think that a Christian is ultimately somebody who's internal belief is that of There there probably is a form of identity as far as identifying themselves. It's like a sinner Theologically speaking, but like identifying themselves as a sinner, but more so it's just an internal belief. Yes It's about internally believing that Jesus Christ is Lord I think I kind of forgot to mention this in my presentation But I don't think there's any feature you obtain in reality simply as identifying as it and I'm not sure why gender would be as one that we special plead to them I don't know. There's not any real trait that with what Christianity No, just in general, there's no feature that we obtain in reality simply as identifying as having such So what there's plenty of You're gonna need to elaborate. Maybe I maybe I'm missing it. It sounds like you're saying there's no real objective thing That happens or changes because of our identity. That's what it sounds like you're saying No, you don't your identity is essentially not valid if you just obtained it by identifying as having it Example like talking about American football Do you think somebody who's never even seen what a football looks like never watched a game on tv? Never been to one never seen their friends playing nothing of the sort can still identify as a football fan When they don't have no concept of it at all probably not Right, so there's still necessary conditions even though we probably haven't flushed them out to be some way of course You're gonna wait. Well, that's not the necessary condition being you must interact with an external social construct in order to have an internal identity On the basis of that construct. Yeah, of course. That's a necessary condition Well, yeah, so we can accept that. Um, so again, there's no feature you obtain in reality simply as identifying as it There's always some conditionals So in this case the condition would be having an internal perception that aligns with cultural views of femininity In order to be a christian the well in order to be a christian the condition would be Having an internal belief that you yourself are a sinner in need of god's love and grace and that jesus christ is lord You don't need to express Externally that you are a christian It doesn't mean that you are not a christian if you fail to do this Right. I mean, yeah, I'm sure there's still some necessary conditions like believing jesus christ is lord Or what up like you mentioned just like there's necessary condition and being a woman which is having an internal perception So that's why I wanted to ask like what do you mean by internal perception because maybe I was wrong on you earlier But the only thing I can think of is your Preferences um and your psychosocial interaction. That's it Yeah, it's going to be the way you perceive yourself in relation to this It could be in some ways like I feel that I fit better in this category But it's most likely going to be more than just like I kind of like the color pink and also There is such a thing of course is being like a boy who is uh much more comfortable identifying with uh masculinity cultural views of masculinity But might like certain Elements of femininity whether that's like wearing pink or maybe they think princesses or barbies are cool or something That doesn't like make you a girl, right? That's just right. So Um, so so what is that like thresholds of social and behavioral characteristics? That makes you the Well, hold on I'm trying to understand a little bit more your broader argument because you're saying there's necessary Criteria that you must meet for anything or sufficient criteria one of the two sufficient criteria for it can be either or um, I'm just saying um, you don't obtain something just as just by identifying as it Okay. Yes. Just identifying as if you're going to say like I guess that would be a good argument if someone's like a woman Is someone who says I identify as a woman who says I identify as a what? Yeah, but there's more Wait, please because there's more to my definition. Yeah, I know. I know. I'm not trying to find any definition I was gonna apply it talking about somebody like a christian though If they have that internal belief do they meet that necessary condition? If they believe as you mentioned earlier, then yes Right. So then why if trans women have that internal belief? Can't that also be meeting that necessary condition? Yeah, so that's what I was going to ask. So like take Dresses or the color pink or Barbies like you kind of just mentioned Do you have to have a belief that you like those Barbies? Or do you have to actually like them or do you have to simply have an internal perception that you like them? Like that's what I'm not understanding You would probably sort of just gravitate towards that more and more. I mean if you listen to Most people I know like Blair white even talked about just like Having an experience as she was getting older and sort of interacting with more gendered spaces having more of this sort of Discomfort with not fitting in certain categories or not fitting feeling right here Again, a lot of it isn't going to be like this Obviously it's like it's not going to be like intellectualizing like do internally I desire to play with Barbie like it's going to be more like what do you gravitate towards? How do you end up seeing yourself in regards to these traits and characteristics? Yeah Yeah, and that's why I'm kind of asking like what is the thresholds of these characteristics that you must meet In order to be considered a woman What is it like so what elements of that internal perception must be met? Is that what you're asking me because I don't know I don't know if I have like an example might naturally Gravitate towards these things in terms of that's just what you like. That's not reducible But I wanted to ask like what is that criteria of threshold things that you must meet in order to be considered a woman Head's up. We got to go into the q&a pretty quick here as we're okay Yeah, I don't I don't know if I have like a exact criteria But that's why I say it's the internal perception because that's going to manifest itself differently for everybody So it's not going to be like you must wear pink and lipstick, etc Or you must internally feel this way It's more so like if you have this internal perception. It's going to manifest itself in different ways So I don't know if it would be fair for me to be like you must check this box these boxes of everything Yeah, and I think the problem with that is what if somebody's internal perceptions? They just need to meet one feminine Archetype and then they can be a woman What if they're internal perception that wouldn't be an internal perception That would just be like an internal belief or like opinion they have Well, that is like what is an internal perception if not a belief or a preference like in this case I'm talking about a perception of yourself in regards to an external construct. So just saying Well, I'm going to now perceive that in order to be a woman It actually means somebody who really likes flying airplanes. So now that I fly airplanes I'm a woman like no because it has to actually relate to the external social construct to ultimately have a form of utility as well Yeah, and if it has to relate to the external social construct I think that goes back to the example that I sort of posited earlier Like if the overwhelming like 99.9 of society in a country thinks that a woman is a female You would agree them that in that society Their gender identity a a male's gender identity as a woman would not be valid A male's gender identity as a woman would well No, not at all because there have been people who have different gender identities in societies that have been more strongly in Uh enforcing the correlation between sex and gender I think that gender and sex are only considered as a concept Are you so are you saying if a society exists in which they say? We we have there there is no such thing as gender. It's just in order to be considered a woman It must only be this biological thing What did that person then not be a It would yeah, I guess by their definition maybe not but Okay, I mean because we already have tried to be defining people right on that biological thing We're even right here in the u.s. And it's not working. It doesn't serve nearly as much functionality Yeah, and I think like the another thing is what's masculine and feminine does very per culture and per where in the world that you go So I think in in one place your beliefs your Preferences what you gravitate towards would be more in line with feminine things But then you go to another place and they're more in line with like what masculine things or things that are even gender neutral Um, I think that sort of implies that somebody is a woman in one place But in another place they would be non-binary or something not at all No, your identity can be valid from one culture if it's culturally relevant. We already went over this Just like the religious society associates with masculine things. How would you be a woman? Wait if you live in a society in which the definition to be religious is Believe this way as far as Christianity, but you go to a different society which says in order to be religious You must commit human sacrifice. Are you no longer religious? The society would probably not define you as religious since they have their own Excuse me definition, but you still have an internal belief regarding religion That's already been formed. Yeah, but the problem is your definition of woman references a social construct and references society Because if we say a woman is somebody who's internal perception aligns with what we Culturally view as being feminine that is in reference to a broader group of people Which is the rest of the people you're geographically around your society So under that view if we were to go to a different society What your internal perception is would align a completely different way in mailing Align with masculine things that would mean somebody's can become woman or man depending on where in the world they're standing You mean if you like take somebody as a baby and have them raised in an environment In which like the cultural views of femininity masculinity are different Then yeah, like the way that they perceive themselves or or are a women or are a woman or man Excuse me based on their internal perception Um Yeah, it might it might be different. There are different roles and expectations throughout history For women. This is why at one point an internal perception of yourself as being Uh culturally views or cultural views of femininity would probably include much more rigid roles as well, right? Like staying in the kitchen for example, but this is changed and so We clearly recognize a social element of gender And so once again, I'll reiterate that since my definition Is the reference to the internal perception It is more encompassing of all women not just trans women, but of all women And it serves more functionality as well Yeah, so I don't think it's really like addressed as the point though because if what you like just mentioned take being in the kitchen Being nurturing qualities that may be in america We typically associate with females and your identity aligns more with those things like being submissive being nurturing being in the kitchen If you travel to like a part of west africa Those traits and beliefs and perceptions as you hold may make you a man because that is not with their society traditionally Views as typically associated you're not understanding my definition of a woman is not just whatever society says It's somebody whose internal perception aligns with what society views as female or male Sure, so maybe if it's their internal perception that aligns with what we culturally views being feminine Not like in the moment that internal perception is formed over time. That's why I say that gender identity is influenced It's not like you're switching from man or woman because culturally they define it here Then culturally they define it there. This is why the internal perception holds the weight Which is going to take time and influence the form in regards to the extra In the example like I posited in america, um, you might Be raised in a way that those are the traits we typically Deemed to be feminine which are to be nurturing to be caring to be submissive say in the kitchen What not now if you travel to another place you still have those characteristics like you mentioned That's not something you can just sort of change, right? You're still gonna grab internal perception. It's still the same Yes, yeah, you can't change that that's still gonna be the same all those Preferences are still gonna be the same But now with the second part of your definition aligns with what we culturally view as feminine That is no longer going to align with what they culturally view as feminine in some places That is going to align with what they culturally view as masculine That's possible So I think that would imply that their gender would still change via via geographic location No, it wouldn't because gender is not just the external social construct. It's also the internal Perception So the internal perception forms on a basis of cultural views of femininity This doesn't mean that cultural views of femininity Determine whether or not you are a woman on a whim It means that the way you form that internal identity Is in regards to the external social construct I feel like I've said I feel like Maybe we've hit a wall or something because I feel like I'm saying the same thing and then you're saying the same thing That I'm saying the same thing but like it's exactly so like is somebody no longer a football fan in brazil If they like watching the nfl here in america or they like watching the nfl, right? And uh here in the us and then they go to brazil and they say i'm a football fan Are they no longer a football fan? The problem is being a football fan liking american football has like literally nothing to do with like your What you align with cultural perceptions because you can use the sports culturally You don't have to align with that to be a football fan Wait, no the the social external construct of sports the foundational social construct varies in society But if so if you identify yourself as a football fan in regards to the external social construct being us nfl football teams Right, and then you go to a society in which football is something different Are you no longer a football fan? There's really yes or no question. Well, no because I mean obviously I acknowledge that your internal preferences They never change, right? What I was most so obviously you're still going to be a football fan your preferences and change What I was more so pushing back on was that second part where it's that internal perception Has to align with x for you to be a woman With football your internal perception of liking it doesn't have to align with anything You just got to like it to be a football fan, but um With your definition of woman it's an internal perception that aligns with what the culture views asking I feel this sorry. I realize the problem. I think You're taking from my definition that I'm saying Uh, someone whose internal perception aligns with the culture of the views being feminine Constantly like it must remain so But what I'm saying is that the external social construct Forms the internal identity and that internal identity can still change and whatnot But like I said most people by the time they're the age of like five six seven eight Have a pretty decent understanding already of their gender identity So it's not like a constant like you must In regard of what their preferences are I can give you a chance to respond to Sanvi's question and then we got to go to the q&a In regards to how they see themselves in regards to yeah, probably preferences I would have to I would be more than happy to look it up and give you more specifics if if you'd like but Um, yeah, it's not like you must keep internally aligning with this. You must keep internally aligning with this It's more that like There is that external social construct and yes, it's going to change as society changes But once that internal perception is more or less formed That's what holds the weight. That's why it stays constant just if society or a different culture has different views We're gonna jump into the q&a, but first a couple of housekeeping type things folks I have pinned at the top of the chat Have you been to the modern a debate discord if you haven't check it out right now That's pinned to the top of the chat or if you're watching afterwards You can find it in the description box. Check out the modern a debate discord We'd love to have you a part of the conversation there as the debates keep going We're gonna jump into the q&a want to say as well Our guests are linked to the description check their links out right now that includes if you're listening via the podcast and Simon allen says should not be awake but caught it live Thanks for all the work you put into this james. We salute you make sure kind words and all credit to the speakers They are the lifeline of the channel check out their links. Sonny. You don't have a link right now. Do you? Band from tiktok very sad But simon allen says son v wins you have a fan out there son v This one from b smiley the third says let's go son v Let's go. You heard a lot of cheerleaders steven savatsky says what is a woman? Son v is what is a goddess son v is wow Says who is my queen son v? Okay. Well van zoos says Your face okay van zoos says do either of you feel that trans women reinforce feminine gender stereotypes Well, I was hoping this would come up Um, because this is definitely a perceived hypocrisy and I totally understand why the thing is is that gender Well, first of all, this is built on a faulty assumption that like all trans people are simultaneously gender abolitionists There's a good chunk of trans people who just don't our gender essentialist. Yeah Well gender means a lot to them because of the way they've either struggled with it Or like the way that they've just interacted with it. They're upbringing what not so like Not every trans person is a gender abolitionist is the first thing The second thing is even if the long-term goal were to abolish gender entirely Come on. It's ridiculous to be like. Oh now trans people you just wait it out and just die by the time we actually get around to like Deconstructing this thing I'm of the opinion that gender is never going to not exist. I think that gender is always going to exist So long as humans interact with each other I think that really what we need to be getting rid of is the expectations So if you have a trans person who wants to Externally present themselves in ways that might be like feminine culturally if he's being feminine right now Right like wearing a dress or whatnot. There's nothing wrong with that because right now. That's that's gendered That's what people see it as but if you're coming up and saying now identifies a woman So I'm going to act ditzy or something. Well now you're talking about actually upholding like a bad and harmful expectation or stereotype So it's not really the same thing Just from be smiley the third says get him sandy this one from the trib one says hi james and the day Today, I think this is for you guys though. They say in the day today men and women will be quote-unquote misgendered regularly Does it matter? Probably depends on the level of misgendering, right? Then says for both When does being misgendered matter? Is it when the individual? Being misgendered knows outside of sports sex and medicine does sex matter societally um, I think maybe that one might be for me because gender might be like, I don't know but does Does misgendering somebody matter the sex matter outside of sports medicine and what was the other one? and medicine sports and sex Okay, so just medicine sports, okay um I don't really know how to answer that. I think the whole thing with misgendering. I don't think the average non-trans person gets Super harmed by misgendering them. I think they simply correct the move I don't think it's something they dwell on I don't think it's something that leads to suicidality yourself harm or anything like that But that doesn't seem to be the case for transgender individuals. They seem to take gender to be a very serious part of their identity um likely due to things like gender dysphoria whatnot I do not think that there would be a harm present if you didn't do it in the presence of somebody I can't think of a way at least because the harm of misgendering seems to be that somebody felt their identity was violated Interpersonally, but I wouldn't see how that would be a harm done behind somebody's back I agree by the way. I don't know how it would be harmful. It's more it's more of like a respect thing Just like if I know that somebody's a Christian I'm not harming them if behind their back. I say, you know, fuck god or something um, but because I respect them I'm not going to purposely disrespect, you know, how they identify or believe or whatnot You got it. This one coming in from do appreciate it as well. Gabrielle O'Brien says proof that man can be woman I don't know what they mean by that says james check your email I checked it. I didn't see anything. Gabriel. Let me know con the sonar says Our adoptive parents parents if so, why would you say trans women aren't women? And if not, doesn't it sound rude to tell a child a caretaker that they are not Yes, the simple answer to that is I think the definition of a parent the definition of a father and a mother Isn't necessarily biological. I think it can also be legal, right? Like you can have legal custodial guardianship over somebody and you would be exhibiting motherhood fatherhood parenthood So a trans woman is not a woman because they don't fit that category a adoptive mother is still a mother because they do fit that You got it. This one from Magellan says how can we tell the difference between a healthy perception and a mental disorder? Some people identify as a pony. Do they need help or should we embrace that too? Absolutely not. No, this is a um, this is uh part of the reason that I'm so such a stickler about my uh External social construct that's for by the way everybody taking a shot for every time I say social construct um, I I pity you out there if you're actually doing that, but um, this is why I'm so serious about that as well Is because that actually negates completely the the crazy like neo gender or zeno gender people that are like Yeah, I identify as a horse or whatever. It's like no, that's not a socially constructed gender identity gender refers to something Gender is not just whatever you want it to be or any form of identity And nor is it just any personality trait. It's something specific in regards to masculinity or femininity. So um No, if somebody says they identify as a pony. No, I don't know how you would have an internal perception of yourself as a pony Um, and also that's just not even a socially constructed gender identity Do you got it this one coming in from coconut cream pie says is hunter a centrist? Um, I mean, I'm a social democrat. I don't know if that that's considered centrist online, but It's more definitely more left This one from b smiley third says son b is two and oh right now Con the stoner lin says given the difference in the brains of the sexes Would you agree it is reasonable to say trans people are neologically intersex? Oh my gosh I would I'm so happy to address this because I address it in my presentation And it's such a common take nowadays right even destiny mentioned something about gendered the gendered brain account Um, so are they neurologically intersex? Okay? So generally when we refer to like what sex is it has to do with our role in reproduction but the brain account of gender is So heavily critiqued because they generally refer to like the function of the amygdala the size of the hippocampus And they do these um brain scans to determine that trans women have brains closer to females And the very first thing to say it's false like not all trans women even have the brains closer to a female In fact, there was uh, I think one study on this that said Up to 40% did it and there's a line more with cis gendered Males and I put that in the presentation from the NIH But a lot of studies do not confirm that hypothesis firstly But secondly, even if I were to accept that Neuro biology has a role in determining if like you're a woman or you're a man It would also lead to the conclusion that homosexual men can be women because their brains are often closer to female than they are Male so while I do think there might be a correlation with the feminized and masculinized brain There could be a strong thesis for that. It's certainly not causal and not definitive um and very arbitrary You could just weigh in really. Oh, sorry if I could just weigh in really really quickly because I partially agree with that too I think that the um, I you probably have heard me make that argument before I'm pretty sure I've made that argument in the past before too. But um, part of the reason I don't like the whole like Well trans women's brains, uh, tend to operate more similarly to like the brains of adult human females um Is because of neuro plasticity. I mean if if we're talking about somebody who Identifies a certain way and who has an internal uh perception of themselves that more aligns with feminine Cultural views of femininity. I wouldn't be surprised if their brain showed patterns where it was lighting up more at certain feminine characteristics or whatnot The interesting one I heard was that with trans women They did find that there was something to do with a difference in estrogen receptors Um, I don't know if that's the same one if that's what they also found in the homosexual men or not But I don't usually appeal to the brain think just for the the sake of the neuro plasticity. Yeah You got it. This one coming in from coconut cream pie strikes again A big part of the politics is centered around what a woman is and does Why are trans men a less hot topic than trans women? In my opinion, it's just because of the matt walsh Documentary like isn't that what started this whole what is a woman thing? Because his thing was woman and not man, but I think the same applies either way It's just I think that's what led to more people saying well, what is a woman because they were emulating his documentary Maybe some of the documentary that well the documentary definitely causes the whole influx of yeah, the what is a woman dorks? but The notion or the the concern about trans women specificities Definitely been around before then I think that's primarily because of a lot of the fear mongering about how trans women are going to be A risk to women's spaces and things like that. I think that it tends to pick up more if you're looking to Honestly, I think that some people are generally concerned for like the more more vulnerable members of society But I think that it also plays very well To like a more conservative audience as well. So I think that that's more so why If you got it this one from Con the stoner lin says given the differences in the brains of the sexes Did I read this one already? They said would you agree? It is reasonable to say trans people are neurologically intersex Intersex yeah, I address this also that is not what intersects means sex refers to a role in reproduction So even though the brain is an organ is not a sexual organ. So it wouldn't be an intersex addition Yeah, I forgot to mention. Yeah get with it con is stoner lin. All right. This is the trip one says four gen Population gender gender population gender expression matters for the general population gender expression matters Most societally in my opinion For both would buck angel or blair white be misgendered if they weren't public figures I do not know who buck let me hunter cancer this while I look them up Would they be misgendered was that the question? Yeah, who's buck angel? Do you know who buck angel is hunter? Yeah, buck angel is a trans guy who is Oftentimes used as an example of someone who you would never guess was trans. Oh, yeah, I think is this person a sex worker Buck angel. Yeah, that's what comes up when I look it up Maybe they used to be this yeah, I remember I've seen buck angel before. Oh, he was an american pornographic film actor But he has more problems than being trans than going straight to hell He's got a something is you're probably not being sarcastic right now, but that's a conversation for another time I agree that buck looks, uh, you know, I just I wouldn't even think that they were a female but or uh I always get the words wrong, but no, you're right biologically female. You're this correct This one coming in from The trip one says for gen. Oh, we got that one This one from steven elliott says hunter. What is a black person? I don't know, uh, what they're getting at here This is the if I can identify as a woman. Why can't I identify as black? Which really comes down to the fact that uh, not all identities Uh, or not everything that carries with it a identity Holds all of the weight or not that the identity holds all the weight. Sorry. I'm explaining that very poorly. I recognize it but Right the identity does not hold all of the weight. So in the case of somebody who is black Well, we would identify them at least if we're talking about like a practical kind of way Like if we're not doing like, you know, getting all technical here Just literally based on how we classify colors That's not you you don't become black because you identify as black Uh, you don't that's not how that works. However, I would say that yes You can identify as a woman based on internal perception Where that holds the weight you don't become black because you identify that that way It's a different concept entirely Oh, yeah going back to that question say something about that Some some interesting things about trans racialism have been floating around the philosophy of gender If you're ever interested in reading a genuine trans inclusive activist I recommend Rebecca Tuval wrote a paper in defense of identifying as different races. That's all This one coming in. Oh, we good going back to the original question about buck and blair. They said for general They said, uh, would buck angel is it angle? It's angle or angel angle, right? Buck will just say buck if would buck And blair be misgendered if they weren't public figures I don't think so, um, especially buck from what I just saw Yeah, I don't I don't really know what that question's getting at but no, I mean they pass incredibly well. That's Yeah, no This one coming in from steven only it strikes again says hunter if we accept transgender Why not trans racial this kind of came up? Kind of already addressed that one. Yeah, steven only it also said hunter. Why is blackface offensive and women face is not uh, because blackface is specifically done in a way to mock black people and degrade them based on historically and what It still occurs nowadays. Whereas you have somebody who has is sincere in an internal perception of themselves so they are Aligning themselves externally with certain feminine traits or characteristics. This is not Anybody comparing these things are definitely acting in bad faith. One is designed Intrinsically to mock an other is based on a sincere identity And there is no intention to mock nor is it actually a mockery whereas blackface is intrinsically a mockery You got it. This one from made by jim bob Past debater. Good to see you made by jimbo says hunter We have a social expectation of women that includes the potential to give birth and mother our children On what basis ought we abandon that? Uh, the social expectation that a woman ought to give birth. Yeah, that's really just the social expectation Correlated with sex. So yeah, a lot of this does just come down to realizing that Correlating it with sex is not actually as functional as it could otherwise be So yeah, I would definitely get rid of the notion that a woman is necessarily someone who gives birth I would say that right now we define a woman Based on you know, we might say that like a woman correlates with biology still again. I'm not denying that but Yeah, sorry. I'm being a little long-winded there. No problem. I have to tell you We have more questions. So we're still going but so many people in chat I've said this has been such a deep and respectful debate So I have to give you positive feedback hunter in sanvi that people have really enjoyed this And so yeah, a lot of applause in the live chat. No joke And also folks if you enjoyed it hit that like button. Seriously. I think it means a lot. Let me ask especially so hunter You've crossed the milestone of a half a million subscribers getting all the way up to 600 000 So you've got experience of youtube Does hitting like make a difference in the algorithm or do you think it makes no difference? You know what? I still to this day don't know it forever remains a mystery Me too. I always tell people to like the stream and that it helps me out I would assume it does because just engagement can be beneficial But obviously the thing that youtube judges the most is watch time minutes How long are you spending consecutively watching the video? Agreed But I nonetheless I still think sorry, we're a little off topic folks bear with me But I really do especially based off looking at our shorts recently I really do think likes at least with shorts maybe even more so with shorts I really do think likes make a difference especially because it's like well Why would youtube like make the effort of keeping it built into their you know, if it really didn't make a difference I don't think they'd continue to even have they would just simplify and get rid of it So I really do think it makes a difference folks. We do appreciate your likes I'm a believer in the difference of likes this one coming in from Ivan Gonzalez says she's going to end up I think they mean son be here says she's going to end up conceding every social distinction of our understanding of gender Then still assert her conclusion of quote-unquote adult human female And act confused there you go. That's the argument for you There wasn't an argument in there. That's just nonsense. I mean I gave I was like no stradamas No, I'm just gonna dump kidding kidding joke I gave a couple arguments as to why adult human female is what we ordinarily use the term as but even I think that it comes down to a difference in counter examples and a difference in intuitions like there are certain Bullets that I'm not willing to accept is the difference like I'm not willing to accept that new borns are analytically aged under Things like that. So that's the difference why we have a difference in the definition You got it this one coming in do appreciate it made by jim bob strikes again says it hunter if If your wife suddenly not a tutorial I read it Just they say if your wife suddenly internally felt like she was a man Would you call her your husband and teach your kids to call her dad or not? Well, the first thing I would do is come out as gay No, I'm just kidding. I don't I don't know how to answer a question. These are always bad faith question I don't know if someone was like sincerely like I'm trans. I've been struggling with gender dysphoria. I'm gonna come out and bubble I'd be like honestly, you know what if you had a spouse who Came out as trans to the degree that they were going to be undergoing like Sex reassignment surgery or anything like that. I think that so long as you're not like a piece of shit to them I actually like you married somebody with expectations regarding sexual Needs as well. So if somebody is say going to transition and no longer have a penis Well, it's not really fair if you were previously married to someone who you're like, well, hold on that was kind of like the agreement here So I actually think that if somebody is sincere in a marriage and all of a sudden wants to transition or something um I do think that it could warrant Like would you say that if they don't undergo medical transitioning because I think only 33 to 40 percent trans women do undergo that So like if they didn't would that make you gay still or would you still say with them? If they were just like just said they have an internal just social transitioning, right? Yeah, social transition. I don't know. I mean it would definitely kind of throw me off because again, I have I have nothing wrong with Acknowledging preferences or whatnot in relationships. I think that having preferences gender and sexual preferences in relationships are not actually Necessarily bad so long as those preferences aren't harmful in some other way, but it would really just depend I I don't know. I feel like those questions more I'm not saying that question was definitely bad faith But a lot of the times that are asked by people who are just trying to be like I don't know get some kind of perceived hypocrisy Juicy Simon Allen says does hunter think sanvi is smart? Brilliant. Wow. This one from me by Jim I think the same of hunter Made by Jim. Well, I was being sarcastic, but that just shows how brilliant I am because now you just complimented me So thank you. Wow. I have to also say since she came up Hunter's wife Carissa has helped modern day debate so much. No joke. A lot of people don't know this Carissa. Well, some of you recognize you remember Carissa used to be a guest mod for us a ton Which helped me a ton, especially when I was like goes on a travel like so anyway, Carissa hunter If you can say thank you to Carissa for for me for all of us, you'd be grateful I mean, you're cool, too But this one coming in from me by Jim Says hunter if a man presents as a woman and is pursued by a man who eventually finds out It's a biological male. Isn't that misrepresenting? Um, it's not misrepresenting if someone else pursues you However, if you are say like in a bar and you're presenting very feminine, but you have biological male trait or male characteristics Um, anytime you start doing something sexual. Yeah, I think that you should disclose that. I think that it's really uncalled for if if you're Especially if it's gotten to a point where you're like going back to the room with the person or something It's like again, it doesn't justify like some of the people that freak out and like beat the hell out of people and kill people or whatever Like that's obviously crazy But like You need to disclose that Before engaging in something really sexual with somebody I would say but just if it's like you're being pursued No, you you don't need to just like tell everybody you're trans But if it's going to be relevant to like a sexual engagement. Yeah, you should disclose that This one coming in from I want to say hunter's been a huge help to the channel too. So for real I wasn't me. I wasn't trying to snub you there hunter. Seriously. We appreciate you I didn't feel snubbed at all. It's okay. Good. I just wanted to be sure because This one from truth seeker says how does each person define a woman? See if you guys feel like we covered this enough. I feel like we did cover this. Yeah, I'm so done with this We I think we repeated it like many times There's especially the matt walsh documentary the one girl who was like do chickens commit suicide There was some lady who asked about chickens committing suicide. Yeah, I saw them Yeah, we we went over that on stream and it was just oh man cringe fast of like Compilations are the worst arguments is really quite fun. Joe this one from coconut cream pie says We got some simps in here The trip one says my dough knows illustrate that people don't care enough about the sex of someone in day to day society Adult human female equals woman misses the boat and that was the person who had said earlier their super chats were saying The one in particular. I think they're referring to is when they were saying is it for both? When does being misgendered matter? and In the day-to-day men and women will be misgendered readily does it matter This one coming in from The docinator says hunter is manly and my king This one Was that what a carissa sock accounts docinator says hunter is manly and my king Finally somebody recognizes it. Yes Rob ski says hunter is number one. Wow the hunter fans are showing up in droves here All right. That's all right. This one coming in from we only have a few more. We'll get you guys out of here I know it's getting late, especially on the east coast hunter. So bear with me This one from yes, and the pacific coast is like six, but this one from Rob This one from web pic tin hard castle says when a trans girl Commits suicide. Is it counted towards the male or female numbers? men lead the numbers Interesting. Um as far as i'm concerned it is counted towards what is on your birth certificate um, there's There was recently something that happened in the uk with a trans girl committing suicide and In the birth certificate. It still had said male. So there was a lot of out redraw that i'm assuming the same applies for the united states You got it this one coming in from wait Can I ask a question? This is a pretty neutral question? I rarely do this, but it is something interesting that I have to ask And like I said, I don't think it really challenges either side more than the other Someone earlier asked is it there's so much focus on trans women, but very rarely on trans men It seems and I don't know if this is like I've heard the numbers are actually the same in terms of numbers of trans men And numbers of trans women However, in terms of like the popular names, it seems to me that they're like way more that I know of That happened to be trans women. Yeah, and you know what? I thought that too, but guess what? Study showed they're about equal. That's what I yeah, that's what I heard. So I'm trying to figure out Why is it that I just for some reason? Is it just me does everybody else you feel like is it that the media picks up on trans women's stories more? Or is it that trans women or maybe Allegedly, maybe hunter. I don't I don't want to put words in your mouth Some might say well, maybe trans women are you know, kind of challenged or targeted more regarding their gender identity I don't know. What are you guys I think it really just comes back down to like the whole leia thompson thing was or was it thomas Thing was a another great example, right of where it's like The the concern about women's spaces specifically and I think that's just because people aren't as concerned. I think about like Uh male swimmers competing against someone who's biologically female, but it's been like taking testosterone I just don't think that that's got the same Uh potential like implication or problem there. Um So I think that's really what it comes down to which is again why it's important to have these these nuanced conversations I think something I wish that a lot of conservative leaning people could recognize is that you can be in support of trans people as far as like The the philosophical nature of it as far as like the validity of trans people's gender identity But then also recognize that like if you go through a male test or a male, uh, puberty It's probably unlikely that you're going to be able to compete against. Um, I I hate saying cis gender women I know that's kind of a buzzword but like against Other women Because you might have an unfair advantage like I'm sorry the statistics the studies also show that you do actually You might retain some of that strength. So like it's okay to say Hey, some of these issues like the sports issue really nuanced But that doesn't mean that trans people aren't valid necessarily and I do wish more people could Distinguish those things instead of getting so caught up in in what almost seems like a distraction You got it. This one coming in from wepington hard castle We got that one lord stannis says How long did gender dysphoria exist before we knew about it? Is it exclusive to humans? Also, are all the dictionaries wrong about their definition of a man? I'm assuming that one may be for me. How long has gender dysphoria existed before we knew about it? I'm not sure about that one probably a long time, right? Although we we have seen a rise in it, but I'm sure it's existed for a very long time Same thing with anxiety depression body dysmorphia all of these things existed before we had the api and the dsm to put Terms and medical labels on it for us Um, what was the second part of that question? Second part was are all the dictionaries wrong about their definition of a man? I'm not quite sure what that would mean. We're wrong. Like definitions are Descriptive and What are what are they referring to when they say are all the definitions dictionaries wrong? I'm not sure. I'm not sure I can't answer that. I'm sorry You got it. This one coming in from do appreciate it the unwanted man Very sad to see does hunter think women have prostates does removing it make you a woman? um Some women can have prostates removing it or not would not make you a woman or not make you a woman This one coming in from steven elliott says i'm ethnically white But was born and raised in africa and speak an african language if i internally felt black How would that be different from someone who is transgender? Because the internal perception doesn't hold the weight that doesn't make you in this case black just like an internal belief About certain or regarding christianity or jesus christ right is what makes you the christian But that doesn't mean that you can just say that say i'm going to believe that i'm an astronaut now i'm an astronaut There are limitations here some things are self-ideas some things are not so in the case of race You might have certain a certain identity that is uh, um formed based on some cultural norms that might be like Uh racial or cultural norms or whatnot, but no that's not what makes you black You got it this one from jake up don't have too many left this one They say hunter should really chill with the subtle jabs and blatant insults when that wasn't warranted through this debate I don't remember in what blatant insult were there I was pretty focused on the chat. Look at sonny's face. Okay, so Did I do you feel that I blatantly insulted you? No, no, no, I mean This one from b smiley the third says shatter takes l sorry says son v make a channel That's right son v You should think about youtube. I mean it's I know I know I've been really putting it off But I've wanted to start on platforms besides tiktok Um, so maybe I will soon You got it. Shane the pain says if any trans woman looks is Okay You can't just read it. I just like instantly stop I'm like even I feel awkward because At some point it's like, okay They say if any trans woman looks as beautiful as son v I'd call them a woman So there are you happy now son v This Unsubscriber says hunter trans women Must sign up for the u.s. Military draft. Do you think they should be excluded like real women? I think that women should have to sign up You've got it. Yeah, we should all equally be suffering. Hell, yeah Juicy Steven Zavatsky says what is son? No Well, I mean it's technically it's not hitting on you. They say whatever you do little politically incorrect. They ask What is son v's ethnicity? Oh, that's fine. Um, I'm south asian and johnby You got it Seville says if you think trans women or women, would you actively date and have sex with them if you were single hunter? If not, are you transphobic? Would I actively date and have sex with some what was the first part of that? They said Would you actively date and have intercourse with them if you were single hunter? And if not, I said it's a trans woman Yeah, if it's a trans woman, like are you going to do it? No, no Nor is it inconsistent whatsoever to have preferences in regards to sexual characteristics Okay, what if they were post-operative though? Like okay, if they were actually post-op to the point that there was like no difference Then yeah, I would sure. Why not? That makes you homosexual. Oh, yeah, I still Really if that makes you wait Having sex with somebody who has a vagina and tits Makes you homosexual. It's gay If it's male on male, it's homosexual. No, no, no, no, no, no It would be gay or to fuck a flashlight at that point Wait male on male So if if one of those girls in Denmark who have the male chromosomes get married And then Does that mean that that means? Okay, okay You got it. I'm sorry, but it would be gay or to fuck a flashlight. Let me just leave that This one is Appreciate your question Oh, you know, let me Okay, so they also asked though, is it transphobic that you say no No, it's not sure anybody saying it's transphobic to not sleep with trans people or whatever people that that's Hopefully is more often than not a straw man anybody saying that is an idiot. That's a dumb a position half You got it. This one coming in from do appreciate it Strikes again coconut cream pie says we got some simps This one coming in from hey, I got a poem on live chat. I got two really quick questions One is this poll in the live chat is asking the question that the super chat are asked because I'm just curious I think modern day debate tonight It it really does depend on the night like if vosh is here the chat will actually lean more left politically And tonight it just so happens that sanvi I think you have an unofficial like following at modern day. They recognize you and they're like They they enjoy you and hunter. They enjoy you too. Don't worry. No, it's okay I'm I'm definitely disliked pretty strongly on this channel Which is always fun because I mean I have the modern day debate chat up on my stream all the time too because We always like to read the the chat just full of inbreds coping and see I think it's there's always a lot of fun this He called you inbreds people. Okay They say if you were single or this is the question I asked the chat and So I think that it's leaning toward the right tonight So I would guess that it would be skewed that they would say no the question is would you If you're a dude date or intercourse with a trans woman and right now It's 67% say no. So like I said, you probably guess that it's Given it's right leaning tonight and 16% say yes 7% say unsure and 10% say I don't care. I'm a self-deluded soy boy. So pretty 68% now say no I'm wondering how much different it will do this one wash your destiny or here especially wash I'd be interested to actually see that. I want to see if there's any numbers on that Yeah, I would wonder especially it's really interesting. Does it differ by political party to a meaningful extent? I would guess it would but at the same time like I don't know. I like a lot of like left-leaning guys like hunter When I uh, it seems like they say no Right. They have a more reasonable take. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I tend to bring out the crazies. It's it's okay I don't know what exactly it is, but It's one of my many gifts. You have a way with people this last question Is that okay? I agree hunter when it comes to the stories you hear of The sports explanation makes sense. Namely that people are worried of men transitioning to women going into women's sports there's going to be a discrepancy in Ability level because of Ling you could say residual maleness physically speaking And so that makes sense in terms of like why you hear more stories But I'm even thinking am I wrong it seems like content creators and I could be wrong about this I just heard about I've heard about Buck Angel before actually But like let's say content creators or celebrities. I can name so many that are trans women Blair white Okay, now it's hard. What's the name of the one that's she's got like a million subs? Wash like sometimes they have like no contra contra points. Yeah And I know I can think of more but it seemed oh that Blair white It seems like very name Blair. I can't remember. I think I did but the point is is it just me or does it seem like like the celebrities Oftentimes for some reason Trans women are in the spotlight more even of celebrities. So like not not sports context. Is it just me? My page, right? It might be it can't really think of anything. Yeah, even like Caitlyn Jenner. Um, I'm not sure about that one I think it might be a coincidence I think there's honestly, I don't want to speculate because there's no way of really knowing and but like There I could see an argument being made that there is partially like Not saying this is what everybody is but like there's definitely a portion of people that tend to fetishize trans women sometimes And I think that you'll see especially the very famous trans women like Blair white tend to Fit very nicely into that archetype and also pass really well. I mean like Blair white She doesn't just look like a woman. She looks like a very beautiful woman So I think that there is something to be said there But of course, I'm not saying everybody who follows them is fetishizing them. That's not what I'm trying to say It's just that I think that also plays a role. It's an element. It's going to be a mix of stuff I think you're right. I do think it's an element. So I think that's at least a factor and This one from Ben Rook. This may be the last one for the night They say do you think it would be better for society and trans people if we honored and reinforced gender stereotypes? Or if we've headed toward a society where these stereotypes were not as important in defining one's gender Well, absolutely the latter we've already headed that direction not to mention We already are aware of plenty of the more traditional gendered expectations that can be Really harmful just for the overall well-being of men women family units, etc You've got it. Yeah, I think if we of you know, didn't have all of these societal expectations and norms of What it means to entail to be a woman I don't think the gender theorists would have much of a case that a trans woman is a woman. So I'd be fine with it You got it. Well, let me just check one last time if we had any others that I think we just had one This is from grace Thorpe. Have you made friends yet hunter with grace? From grace Thorpe. That's right um a don't What was her donation? She said correction. Actually she says corrections sanvi It wouldn't be gay gh e Why if hunter had intercourse with a trans woman as he himself is a trans man? Wow Grace come on That's a perfectly checkmate conservatards say by the way I I beat you last debate Wow, grace said Juicy, I love me check if they're ready last ones. I think that was the last one, but wow Grace feisty, I appreciate this last one just came in Bryce f says trans women aren't biological women But the real question is how much to respect trans people everyone deserves respect san vis a q t qt pi two something Pi two. Yeah, I don't cutie. How are you guys seeing these questions? Is it on youtube? This is on the modern a debate live chat Okay, it says qt p2t A q-tip Sonia's a q-tip By the way folks Right now a modern a debate is live streaming Come on over here and vote in our poll. Which side did you find more persuasive tonight? I always tell people This isn't super meaningful because to a significant degree in every debate. I've noticed People just vote for the side. They already believe in so it's not that meaningful, but it is fun So come on over here vote on modern a debates poll. We appreciate your feedback You're voting your engagement all that stuff. Thank you guys for hitting like as well If you haven't shared this debate consider maybe you've got a friend out there that likes these topics share this debate with them Sean be Though about the respecting trans people even though they're not biological women. Yes Okay, um, I think yeah, I think this question is pretty touchy. I personally do respect everybody But with that being said I do not Tell false. It's I will not lie about what I believe, right? Um, I think you don't need to go out of your way to be incredibly cruel to anybody But if somebody asks you like do you think my identity is valid? You should not bend the knee for fear of bad consequences. Always tell the truth Juicy this one coming in from Shane the pains this hunter What would you say about a trans woman using the girls restroom at an elementary school? um, I would say What's the point of asking about this specific hypothetical other than to try and uh gesture to some kind of a fear tactic when they've done studies for example in uh, they did some uh criminal data collection And I think it was the state of massachusetts before and after they enacted Uh public gender inclusive restrooms and even locker rooms And they found that there was actually no correlation with any increase of sexual assault rape Or harassment reports in regards to uh public bathrooms or or anything of the sort not to mention We've actually based on data collected also found that tends to be trans people trans girls specifically and uh Not not non-binary people actually. It's just sorry trans people when they're forced to use the bathroom that doesn't align with their gender identity They are actually at a higher risk of being victimized rather than being perpetrators of violence. So Just a couple facts to uh to to put over those feelings for you there pal. Thank you for the final donation and uh James thanks so much for hosting and uh sponnie. Thank you so much for the the debate Thank you. Great conversation and I will uh see y'all later. See pleasure was all mine. Take care hunter Thanks very much for being with us tonight and the uh ben rook clarified. They said I figured out the acronym It means cutie patootie Thank you ben for that. Okay, this one. I think that's it. So we got that last one in but want to say Thank you very much. Hunter's still with us. It's frozen Yeah, I'm still here. Oh you are so I thought you left worry. Oh, what have you got zombie? Oh, I still have a little bit of time, but if we're there's no more questions and thank you so much That is actually it for the question. I'm going to double check right now, but Okay, we did get them all so I want to say thanks folks for all of your questions I'm going to be back in just a moment with a post credit scene letting you know about upcoming debates So stick around for that one last thank you to hunter and son v Check out their links in the description below even if you disagree folks There's a value to clearly and you could say authentically understanding somebody else's position It's really sad when you reject it based off of the caricature of their position So it's good to check out people's channels that you disagree with even and then last one Pardon me. Sorry hunter. I know it's late Oh, thanks for your support Shane. So I'm going to let you guys go. Thank you very much hunter and son v It's been a true pleasure. Have a great rest of your night. Thank you. Thank you both Amazing my dear friends want to say thanks so much for your support Let me just adjust the screen here because these boxes are a little bit off Want to say you guys I appreciate it. Seriously. It means more than you know, it's freaking hot. I'm really hot Give me a second. I gotta take this jacket off. This is the post credit show. So it's okay, but But yeah, basically two seconds I wouldn't normally wear this on screen because it's It's weird, but here two seconds, okay You guys didn't know this is a cutoff. I actually yeah, we're a cutoff because it gets so hot and I've got to unbutton this out this top one because Man, it's like 90 degrees in here Want to say thank you guys for your support. Seriously. It means more than you know couple of things one If you haven't yet our discord is in the description box highly encourage you if you love these and you're like, hey Yeah, these are fun conversations. Check that out in addition Other stuff that we've got here at modern day debate I mentioned earlier if you didn't know we do have a podcast app or I should say a podcast Of which you can find on your favorite podcast app So do want to encourage you check it out on your favorite podcast app. I know most of you listen via the phone I can tell in the youtube creator studio. They tell us that Donation for janes says shame the pain shame fix your support man. It really does mean a lot We're excited about the future modern day debate is growing fast. I have to tell you We're grateful You guys are the reason for that the speakers are the reason for that It's truly a community here and it's a community of eclectic views We've got everybody here. We've got christians atheists muslims politically left leaners politically right leaners You name it and we're all at least united in this Everybody wants a neutral platform so that everybody can make their case on a level playing field That's what we're doing here at modern day debate. That's our vision Our goal our mission and we are going to fulfill it YouTube deserves a better class of debate channel and we're going to give it to them. The reason is some debate channels I'm not going to indict them all but I will say some it's like well I mean like this is pretty clear in terms of where the debate channel leans Whether it be politically left or right or christian or atheist and we at modern day debate are fully neutral So if you are supporting this channel You don't have to think like ah, am I supporting like am I giving a super chat too? Or you know if i'm a debater going on the channel am I helping promote this channel that disagrees with my view It's like well, we have no views modern day debate has only one view you might say Which is this we've talked about it before we are willing to host controversial topics We've done this many times we have a video on that and that's you could say the only thing that we would say Hey, we'll actually dig our heels in and take a stance on that and that's it My dear friends, I want to say thank you guys for your support. It means more than you know It really does all of the likes as well right 244 likes we can totally get to 300 that's I mean what I meant to say is 250 we can get to 302 But let's hit 250 first want to say thank you guys for your support seriously We are going to do so many big things This channel Is only in the beginning of its own story it is going to be big We are going to continue barreling along like a snowballed on a giant hill Modern day debate is continuing to grow because people know what they want They want a neutral channel where people can make their case on a level playing field and our values are these One as you know, we want things to be fair We want it to be you could say Such that people say hey If that was a successful debate on moderate debate it means something Because it wasn't because a moderator was biased And trying to help that person or something like that But it was because you know, it's a neutral it's like they made the best arguments It's not because of the channel because it's true. I mean I gotta tell you I've seen it on some channels Where it's kind of like well the moderators clearly kind of systematically taking a side in these debates And so if you quote-unquote were more persuasive or one whatever you want to call it on those channels It's like well It's not very meaningful if the moderator was kind of helping you right and it's like winning It's like winning a football game because the refs were kind of stacked in your favor. It's like well It's just not legitimate. Nobody thinks it's real But here at modern day debate it is real and it is meaningful So I gotta tell you my friends We're excited because our second value is freedom. We want people to say what they want Our speakers were free from their first breath and we want to keep it that way That's important for us and last but not least because a lot of people are like wow james If they're dangerous views, I mean, I don't know Controversial, I don't know if you should do that james We say hey, we should Because even though some many people think it's like a dirty word Especially in the context of debate because we have this overly polite culture, you know, there's just very You know, they're always quick to judge things. It's like oh, that's immoral or anything. It's morally not as good, you know I gotta tell you We're not ashamed. We believe in the value of competition and hierarchies Some debaters are better than others. It's just the way it is We believe that if there are these controversial topics being debated The best arguments will win out. That's what the research says and some people say well james, but What if one of the speakers is maybe more attractive or you know, maybe they're funnier They're more charismatic, whatever it is Maybe that's you know What'll make them win even though they didn't have the better arguments and isn't that harmful I'd say hey, you know what the elaboration likelihood model petty in casiapo 1985 It's a theory. In other words, it has mountains of evidence behind it suggesting that that's not how it works Those peripheral things like attractiveness of the speaker Charisma sense of humor those are actually outweighed by Strong arguments. That's actually what persuades people. That's just what the research says So when people make these, you know, james, it's dangerous to host these topics for people See, you know what that's not what the research really says and i'm amazed that usually when I bring this up to them They're like I say well, so anyway, I brought my peer review source. What's yours? They go? Well, I mean, that's not my it's not really fair james. That's not my specialty. You're getting your doctorate in psychology It's not really fair. It's not the same So, you know, I haven't had a chance to like read into it and I'm like, well, these are empirical claims You're making and you're so confident about them and you haven't even read any of the empirical literature on it Some of these people are so phonies. There's such phonies such fakers and posers In terms of oh, yeah, like I know all this stuff and they're so opinionated I think they're so right and they speak as if they know these things and then when you press them just the slightest little push Back where you actually say actually, here's the empirical research. What would you say? I haven't read it. Maybe when I get a chance to read about that then maybe we'll talk later They're such fakes. Some of them really are it's very sad. You'd be surprised Some of these I remember one guy even had his doctorate already like well She gets money back. Yeah, very sad I've got to tell you it's really there are a lot of people like that Where I'm like, hey You've got such strong opinions and you're making these empirical claims. You have zero data. It's just purely based on assertion That's all it is. It's just assertions. You'd be surprised how many of these so-called Intellectual heavy hitters I've caught with that where I'm like You're not like they just it's so much just assertions over and over. It's very embarrassing. It's very sad even grown men You know people who are You know up there in decades. I'm like wow you really Sad you haven't learned after this long What are you gonna do? but I want to say In the chat, thank you guys for your support Jared a good to see you again dark cloud and c2 Thanks for coming by Ozzy gold glad you're here planet earth happy to have you here brice f happy to have you certain general good to have you and amber thanks for dropping in simon allen glad to have you here Quani upstate good to see you again long time viewer as well as ben thwerp. Good to see you Thanks for your support through your channel membership means more than you know Certain general good to have you here ray demasue. Am I saying it right? Let me know Thanks for coming by jump jack glad to have you here Gay alien or gay lian Okay, what to say? Thank you for being here as well as james mcdougal good to have you back j s urban adventures Happy to have you here. I gotta tell you We had already mentioned this value of competition We believe that the cream will rise to the top that if you let the chips fall where they may if you let a thousand flowers bloom The best arguments are going to win out It's a natural selection of ideas. You could say believe me That's what's happened I've purposely on those controversial debates to be sure that it was kind of where you could expect it because Theoretically I could I could see someone says wow, but what if the talent is mismatched and I say well I mean on those controversial controversial debates Because for example, we have we've had neo NAZ is on the show before And I make sure that it's well matched in terms of the talent because that way because if some people are you know They're like, well, you know, but what if one of the debaters is really bad? And so they don't even recognize what the good arguments are versus the bad is it like well We control for that you could say so I want to say thank you guys for your support. I want to just want to say I appreciate you for real My sister's keeper. Thanks for coming by says james if you want your wife to sing cater to you by destiny's child I don't remember that song And I don't have a wife so it would be extra hard But db says hit the like button. Thanks for your support db planet earth. Thanks for coming by Says modern day debate is the future. We appreciate that and we are excited about the future. We are continually honing Continually improving on modern day debate. There are things we can improve. We're open to that but the important thing is If you keep making progress It's good to admit that you've got faults or things that you could improve at right I mean that's the only realistic way that you're going to find like oh These are the things I can improve on then because i'm willing to admit, you know, we have faults And that's the point in growing is it's like, well if you're honest with yourself That's when you can start actually improving things because you're actually willing to say yeah That's something we improve that's what we're doing here at modern day debate Is we are working to improve this channel all the time and we want to say thank you guys for your support Thank you. Good. Thank you guys for being in this awesome Seriously, it's been such a blast so far We're almost up to five years since modern day debate started. Isn't that crazy? It's pretty close We're about six months away from five years. So it's about four and a half years. We've been here We've hit 106,000 subscribers recently. Thank you guys for subscribing. It means more than you know seriously, it really does And we're excited about the future because this is just the beginning of our story I'm gonna let you go want to say thank you guys for all of your support Drizzy good to see you there in the old live chat certain general glad to have you here Human girl good to see you says Amy Newman still around. Yep Daniel mother soul glad to have you here as well as zed man. Thanks for coming by nomadic glad to have you here Apollo Cyrus thanks for dropping in but yeah, seriously you guys I appreciate you guys just being awesome supporters Thank you guys supporting the vision the mission It means more than you know I just love you guys. I always this is always when I'm like, man, I was like, I don't want to leave Like I just enjoy these like a little after show hang out. So I want to say seriously Thank you guys for your support Peter Peter Zotti. I see you there in the old live chat. Thanks for your support Thanks for being with us and also if I see you in the live chat of which all the people that I've named the names of Daniel mother soul. Good to see you That means that you guys are subscribers and I want to say thank you guys for subscribing Seriously, it means more than you know. Love you guys. We're excited about the future. We've got some epic debates coming up So stay tuned. The future is bright and we're excited about it We hope you have a great rest of your night. Keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable and we'll see you next time amazing