 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome and thank you for being here. My name is Madeleine von Hansen. I'm editor-in-chief of Le temps, a Swiss media, and we're here today to have this discussion about this very important topic, reskilling revolution, enabling a business imperative. I'm very happy to welcome our panelists and we'll start with you presenting them to you with you Tan Krok-Yam, you are chief executive officer of Skills Future Singapore. So that's a governmental agency working, enabling individuals to learn for life. Mr. Ahmad Beloul, Minister of Education of United Arab Emirates. We have also Melanie Parker, you are chief diversity officer at Gourin and Chavan Goli, chief operating officer at Gouffin. Thank you very much for being here. So maybe I'll start with just a few elements to frame the discussion. We know now that more than a billion jobs are likely to be radically transformed by technology by the year 2030. The World Economic Forum's Future of Jobs report estimates that more than half of the global workforce might need reskilling or upskilling to remain productive in their current role. At the same time, of course, new technologies are creating millions of new jobs and for these jobs the right skills remain in a critically short supply. So there's a supply problem too. So obviously a strong business case for reskilling and upskilling and maybe one more figure here is that two thirds of the employers, according to the same report, expect a return on investments in one year, so investing in skills and they want in one year results, okay? I see your face already on that one. We'll come back to that. And of course, so one way of looking at this topic is the questions of barriers to entry. So how do we get more people to these jobs given their this? So high needs. So maybe we'll just jump into the discussion and start at the beginning with education because that's where it starts and maybe it starts very early also. And if you may, I would start with you, Minister Beloul. So what is the role education and education institutions, what should they play in facetating a better match between the graduates' education and the jobs? I think when it comes to education, there has always been a gap between educational outcomes and labour market requirements. But historic that was just more of a short-term labour market versus supply of talent gap. What we're talking today about is something fundamentally different. We're talking about graduating students today that will be ready for jobs in the future. That's quite a different perspective. So as educators, we are tackling both at the same time. So I think the first one is a bit easier because you get direct feedback from HR managers today on what they require. And all you have to do is to make sure that all your academic institutions embed these skills. Now what comes to the longer-term future ready skills is quite difficult for two reasons. One, not only being able to predict, but even if you are able to predict, if you look at the numbers, they keep changing. So we just saw the announcement today about the most relevant skills. And empathy is number 10. I think the technical skills are number four and six. The same list five years ago, if you're not other, not at the Economic Forum, coding was on the highest. So we're not even sure yet what skills are required in the future. So with that in mind, what we think about as educators is to not worry too much specifically on which skill is the highest. Is it emotional capabilities and capacity? Is it coding? Is it whatever it may be? But focus on graduating students that will be lifelong learners. That will be highly adaptable. And you have to prepare them today to know that their jobs will drastically change. I think that's the best thing you could do. So how do we do it? We start introducing self-learning much earlier in this process. So historically you'd be a self-learned in university, then it came down to high school and now trying as much as we can to get students to self-learn and do more assignments and do some more individualized learning earlier on to instill that capacity of self-learning and also giving much more electives even within high schools and earlier on. So you want to push that responsibility more to the students by allowing them to take choices at an early age and allow them to self-learn at a younger age. And today with the preparation of digital technology it becomes much easier to provide digital content as opposed to telling that child to go just read a book and summarize it. So I think in summary our goal is to make students much more future proof by making them highly adaptable and setting a culture of curiosity and a growth mindset knowing that when they toss it has when they graduate they're putting on another hat of lifelong learning. Thank you very much. Could you give us maybe one example of a measure that you really implemented in order to go into that direction? Yes, so we've done a couple of things. One is we have dictated on universities to provide courses post-graduation for alumni. So they need to provide reskilling or upskilling courses for their graduates in order to be able to operate in the UAE. Now we've given them a grace period for a number of years. What we found out is that it was a bit challenging for them because academics they might update their content at university but that might not be relevant to you or to me who graduate ten years later. So we're trying to get them to work much more closely with private sector. This needs to be not a highly academic but also a very industry-relevant course. That's one thing that we have done. Two we've also introduced the job insurance. So if somebody gets laid off they get the insurance to say on the job for six months to be able to re-skill themselves. Three we're also putting incentives for employers to train their employees. So we have a program called NAFES which means compete. There's a budget there as well to re-skill unemployed citizens who are unemployed due to a skills mismatch. So they get a chance to either get trained in whatever skills they're required by the employer. Thank you. Maybe yes. I was going to give you the floor because we're talking of lifelong learning. So what is your vision of how this has to be implemented? Yeah, certainly so I was just going to add on certain points but I will kind of bring up to the bigger question here. I think you know why we are here today is clearly the technology is changing rapidly and I think you know we've all talked about for the last few years how automation and globalization have been disrupting and displacing some of the jobs for those people without graduate degrees. And of course the tremendous rise of generative AI is putting risk of all of our jobs in this room here as well as sort of the next wave of what's coming at us. But I think one of the interesting findings from the Future of Jobs report based on the Coursera data is what we found as individuals without degrees can actually acquire critical skills in a comparable time frame with those with degrees. So that is amazing because I think it unlocks an immense opportunity for us to think of it as a skills-based training and skills-based hiring. I think connecting the dots to what you just said which kind of makes a lot of sense and we're seeing this evidence in our own programs with Coursera Career Academy which is adopted by a lot of universities and governments and the reason where they're doing it is because it's got about 30 different industry micro-credentials from Google included like Google data analyst or Google UX design or IBM data analyst and so on and so forth. But what it is is it's a credential that you can as an individual you doesn't require prior college degree, prior work experience and also includes full hands-on learning as part of the credential so you can actually gain all the skills that are relevant for the job. So then the imperative becomes like well how do we take this further and I think that's where sort of this public and private partnerships become really important and I think as I think about this unlock that can happen through skills-based training so I think integrating a lot of that sort of the industry micro-credentials into sort of the educational experiences is one side of the equation but the business is embracing skills-based hiring. And I think if for this to work because of the fact anybody can actually learn these skills businesses should open up and actually say I want to hire based on the individual skills and abilities to do the job versus pure degree as such right and so for this to change obviously you have to have a collaboration with government and industry and higher ed. So what is the role then of institutions, universities, high schools, I mean given what you're saying it changes. Absolutely and I think one of the big things that we are noticing here is actually integration of these micro-credentials into actual curriculum to your point exactly we're working with a number of universities around the world through a Christopher campus offering wherein they're actually taking these 30-odd professional certificates and they're kind of calling them as career electives so essentially these are digital skills that are mapped to the jobs of the future and so while you're in college you're getting the breadth of the education which is great. I think the other important thing that you said was human skills and I think if you are going through an academic institution I think it's a great place to gain those human skills and I think the academic institutions can continue to focus on that and build on it but they need to integrate this industry credentials and industry type skills that are also going to prepare these kids for the jobs of the future. Thank you. Melanie, Parker, did you see a new people, different people coming into jobs, did you see the results of I mean this first discussion we're having about including people with different backgrounds. Did you see that? I do and I love the conversation that we're having and if you think about like we can all recognize that there's one part of job descriptions that has changed like many companies now have in lieu of degree or a four-year degree is not required but what does it mean if you don't require a degree how are you going to solve for that so one of the ways at Google that we've tried to solve for that is through our career certificates and so if you are non-degree or you don't have job experience or say you're you've been out of work for a while so you were a caregiver and as an example and you're coming back in and you need relevant skills how are you going to make that pivot while the career certificates allow you to take a self-paced course so the ability to like learn have self-paced learning motivate yourself to do that because Sarah as a platform but once you get that certificate you're eligible not just for roles at Google but at 150 other employers now accept that so you know that's a way that we can contribute to society ensure that everybody has access to employment because the statistics say that the higher paying jobs require a degree or certificate to do that and so how are we going to close the economic wealth gap and so that's the part that we play from a corporate standpoint I just had a couple data points where she said we did a survey Coursera survey of over 50,000 learners and over 800 employers across the globe and 90% of the students said the industry microcredential or career certificates actually enhances their ability to get a job on the other hand 76% of the employers actually said we would hire someone who has an industry credential as a preference because they're starting to see these in these learners are making an effort to gain more skills and qualify themselves for the jobs and so that certainly is exciting the other point you just said Google's kind of hiring skills based which is exciting and then the same survey we found 97% of the employers said they would be more open to skills based hiring now proofs in the pudding obviously right you know but you know it's going to take some time but it does say I mean we think about who's taken advantage of the courses that we are the certificates we offer 55% are from minority or you know women that are taking these courses and so it's an opportunity to increase more diversity if I think about what we're doing in India as an example we have a program called Digi Pivot and we are doing digital skilling for women and to have careers in digital marketing and so we're helping women gain entry but also with skills that continue to close the economic wealth gap. Thank you I want to give you the floor. How can how can policy makers what is what is the role of policy makers we've been talking of partnership private public so what is your opinion about about your role and and how can you ensure that people have the good information we're talking here of some elements but you have to know about that so how do you how do you see that what is your work. Thank you we see the role of policy makers and we like to shorthand it in Singapore as the four A's the first A is about awakening and it's about really encouraging the behaviour of lifelong learning as a social and industrial norm it is it does not always come as a given and we are very thankful for the work of our web and so on really to push the message that it is not let's not look at things like generative AI metaverse what have you as you know a threat to your job let's look at this as an opportunity for growth and so I think that's an important narrative that the government the state has to sort of promote gay the second A actually I'll say the fourth A because there are two A's in between the fourth A is about activation I think different different different countries do it in different ways but when I say activation I mean being able to provide the resourcing to enable the the sort of the post-formal education infrastructure to take place in Singapore we have we do it with a mix of demand side and supply side funding demand side is in we give everyone some a little bit of credits to do lifelong learning but we also subsidise on the supply side the training provider so that's activation now the two A's in the middle I come to them later because they're the hardest things to do yeah the first the first A the second A in this case I'm confusing myself it's about skills articulation so you have to after you awaken the interest to do to acceptance of lifelong learning you have to be able to articulate what are the skills that are that the job market that label market needs because the man in the street will say well I get it no thanks for nagging me to up skew but up skew in what I know generative AI I know I have read I've read the reports but I'm an accountant I'm a cab driver what am I supposed to do so this part about articulation being able to say well here are some causes here are some skills here are some sorts of job experiences that may be helpful to you that part is important and this part we do it with we have some capability within the we within my agency but we also do it very closely with partners we see Koshira as a potential partner for example they're out there so it's information information intelligence and gathering there at the national level the third a really is a tough one is we call it aggregation and it's about how how do I get companies industry sectors to come on board to to to adjust their adjust their workplaces so that this this learning environments as well to be able to look as Google has done across the sector and said look we need certificates to allow a much larger diversity of people to enter the workforce and not just for Google not just for Google so how do I get more companies to do that because not all companies would do that some because they have other priorities and some because they are not Google size they are SMEs and and and it would be a little bit of a of a stretch to think that they'll be able to to to mount something like that on their own so how then do I aggregate the requirements the needs of different companies and get them on board this because at the end of the day for all this the first three is to work the employer must be on board so so I think I think that's that's where I'll end thank you thank you I would like to yes perfect please we have a microphone somewhere and let's just wait for that so that people online can hear you what what no no no thank you Dr. Sally Salba from Medtech industry love what Google is doing we have also done we have also done the recredentialing jobs in order to take away the four year degree we're all about it we've done it for sixty percent of our IT jobs here's the backlash the backlash is the rest of our employee base that's saying I paid and I'm still paying student loans until today for my degree that allowed me to get this job and now you through your equity agenda are going and saying I'm going to open this up to them and they don't need that and honestly we haven't had a good response to that so when sir you were saying how do you get companies to really buy into it I think there's a lot more appetite in companies to do that because we understand the value of the access to talent but there are real other issues to get every that middle management layer to get your people buying into it as well when they have a personal stake in still paying student loans when they're in their fifties and the history obviously so maybe you want to start yeah I can can I just I mean that that is the that's the wonderful point and I will say that the struggle is not just at the company level it could be an entire industry level and different jurisdictions I'm not so familiar with this but in different say healthcare jurisdictions you have discussions about what the nurses can do or what what you need a medical degree to be able to perform what kind of medical operation so those are those are real problems but I would like to say that there are two reasons that we are looking at upscaling and the first is of course this whole ambition this whole aspiration to allow everyone to be able to you know as as someone in in my country said to to to make a to be a better version of themselves regardless of their station and that's that's that speaks to the to the to the agenda of equity speaks to agenda of our open open opportunities for all the second reason and the second reason is simply that the half life of the shelf life of skills are just going so fast and it's not a matter of you know I am dissing your your degree or it's not so important anymore it is not a matter of opinion it is a matter of fact that skills new skills are constantly coming up and and consequentially existing and old skills are becoming less important relatively so there had there is a material value to this and I think it is a hard message by this one that I think our workforces need to internalize one more point about this yeah just a couple points on that I think that's a great question a great point just in terms of culture and how you can evolve the culture side of the equation here I think the question here is like okay apply generative AI 49% of all professional jobs are going to be impacted 50% of their work is going to be displaced or impacted or exposed to generative AI so now what okay you talked about all these individuals but you know guess what your job is at risk as much as those people's jobs are that's one putting that aside as a company like you want to be competitive in the marketplace and if you want to be competitive in the marketplace first of all you want to be able to produce products and services that cater to a global population you're not going to be able to build a global you know kind of the products and experiences if your employee base is narrow right and I think some by design you want to actually have so that would be one of my big points back to them is like who are you serving if you're serving these individuals then why not have those individuals to come and help you build these products for you in the first place second thing is you're asking you have like 10 positions to fill as a manager alright let's take these people out of the picture go fill these positions do it can you find enough talent in this world no especially in these skills areas no so you know the skill shortages and the fact that their bonuses are dependent on productivity of their teams are gonna actually have to force them to kind of think out of the box as well I think Melanie do you have issues of that type of issues you know not not not to that same degree as part of our racial equity commitments we actually introduced a loan repayment because we heard the exact same thing so we did introduce it not for everybody but for early career to help take some of that out but one of the other ways and I was thinking about this when I was listening to your your response is we also involve our employees in the upskilling so with the program I mentioned in India Digi Pevitt 50 hours of their instruction are taught by Google and so we use our own employees to help with that but it builds that buy-in that consensus it enlarges the thought process as well and I so I think they're different components we have to employ here thank you very much are there some other questions yes please here thank you thank you very much in Jadeika Harry I'm from the US and have really enjoyed listening to the panel as I listen through though I'm hearing a very employer-focused discussion and you know I'm sitting here thinking of the higher education institutions like you mentioned and our higher education institutions all over the world are they not just broken are they obsolete are their combination of both in the US in particular you know I can think of three ways that our students are learning through the educational system one is pace the other is goal and the third is mode right pace we are creating a generation of young people that start out at kindergarten all the way to college they don't have time to think they don't have time to reflect and they end up in college with high levels of anxiety as we know and then in terms of the the mode of instruction we are teaching young people to pass a test that robots to can pass right and so they come out with these skills that robots could have taken or robots could have passed the same test and then finally you know kind of rearing what I would term kind of excellent sheep young people who they have milestones get a good job get a good salary but real meaning of life things like fulfillment and purpose are not measured they're not impacts that we look at at the in the educational system and so these young people have these jobs but they don't necessarily have the fulfillment so I guess as I sit down here and I listen to this discussion I'm just concerned that our higher education institutions talking to the industry as much as per probably they should be so that we can you know come to some agreement on what really matters which are the young people at the center of this problem thank you thank you very much great comment I think what about you minister great question it's a great interest and courageous question to be honest I think look are they talking enough to industry I don't believe so I think one of the key issues that I've seen and I've seen this across different universities even like the Russell group in the UK and the Ivy League in the US I get feedback on concerns about assessments because of the presence and the ability of students to use generative AI how can we test these students and I mentioned this in its different top and a different session where some universities I say in Australia went back to paperback testing so I think it's on us or on the higher education system to at least improve our assessment so you mentioned a very good point about smart sheep where we're helping them pass a test now given that you have these new types of tools that can do these jobs easily for you we should not be lazy to use the same forms of assessment we did before so now it needs to be a way where we can assess students on their cognitive ability and not memorizing and not writing an essay that you can actually have AI rated for you such as chat GBT so I think the if we were to have a decision on whether higher education students are what it or not I think we need to rethink not only the way we teach but the way we assess the way we assess has not changed for a very very long time that needs to be changed tremendously and going back to the point that was mentioned previously about the difference between getting the skills of micro-credential for a job versus going to four year degree I think it really depends on what you're serving for if you're serving the purpose of meeting a job requirement today then by all means finish high school take your attention and go get a job but an investment in four years is investment in my own development by interacting with other peers and by challenging myself and you also get to do elective and other subjects so I think the four years from my perspective are investment in my own development as a person whereas a micro-credential is solving my immediate economic need for a job today not to discredit any and I know that soon flows are extremely expensive in the US but there needs to be a balance between self-development and between meeting a job requirement today there are bits you know the bits that are not converging they need to converge at some point. I think a plus 100 to what what you just said I think the way I would also describe is actually it was all about pathways I think in terms of the industry micro-credentials to your point like get to a job not get to a massive loan as a starting point but I think then of course if you want to continue to advance your career there are options to go pursue degrees but I think it's an interesting question on the way that the education system also has to evolve and integrate more employability as part of sort of that equation because I think the cost of education is rising like crazy but the employability is also going down at the same time and I think that's the real issue if you can actually improve the employability of this which means that you can actually produce more sustained graduates that can actually get jobs and that can pay for those loans but also continue to kind of rise in the workforce and one other example I think you know we've been working with the ministry of Kazakhstan science and education and they're doing something very interesting you know they've basically created a nationwide initiative to address the digital skills gap and I think that's the other recognition that university systems have to have but sometimes funding is a problem and so this ministry is basically is buying it for 20,000 students and faculty across 25 public universities and they've prescribed about 650 plus different STEM digital human skills skills to be courses for credit and I think that's the other way like I think you can get a degree but you can actually get a degree in a smarter way as well and I think what you're saying is the student is caught in the middle because employers are looking after like what skills do you need and then academic institutions you know are looking like what's needed to progress and get that credential but who's looking after the fulfillment of the student small example but like there are two programs that we have at google that I have found to be incredibly successful one is um google and residents where we actually send our own google employees to campuses but specifically minority serving institutions so our historically black colleges and universities tribal colleges and hispanic serving institutions and they teach freshman computer science but they're giving like that real world experience not just to the students in that class but to the computer science departments they're in the computer lab they're mentoring other people but then we have conversely we have a program faculty and residents where we're bringing faculty to our campuses in the summer so they too can get that real world experience because I agree with you we're not talking enough on both sides of it to understand both sets of experiences so I think there are other ways and opportunity we're opportunity rich environment to do more I think there's always a attention between the the role of the higher education institution is is rigor and its consistency in in teaching things like the principles of economics and newton street laws and and things that don't change regardless of generative AI and there's there's a place in that in the education of a human being right and the tension of the industry who says well you know hang on a minute he doesn't know what I want him to do he can't operate this machine he can't he can't code in in the language that I prefer things like that so so it is not an easy it is not an easy tension to manage and as as the the minister you said that the the thing to avoid is to have a complete bifurcation I think as all institutions are they're made up of people and and one one thing that recently in Singapore we try to focus more on is is the exposure of the teachers themselves of our polytechnic lectures and so on and whether a stint in industry allows them you know to continue their work but to color you know the teaching of the principles of economics and newton street laws of what have you with real life experiences with what the industry is doing and so and hopefully that adds a bit of balance to the to do what the student is receiving just one point I want to add take some other questions after oh sorry go ahead yeah no I was just gonna add like ultimately you also need to drive down the cost of education right I think it's a cost of education means then you actually can deliver the cost down to down to the to the actual student as well so you don't charge as much so affordability and flexibility and by integrating a lot of other content and credentialing that can actually reduce the amount of burden on the academic institution to a certain degree as well so I think we also need to think of like why is it costing us so much today and how can we actually reduce that burden online hybrid virtual experiences this generally I on the other side could actually be a personalized coach personalized tutor personally and a and a ta and a grader like all kinds of things that can actually reduce the cost of education as well thank you sir so you're going to replace professors now is that it no it's completely augmenting anything is about augmenting at some point hi Rob Rashat from Canada I work for a high tech company we're about 13,000 people we do a very similar type of program that Google does on a much smaller scale obviously I'm a huge advocate for microcredentialing I think it's the future we could get into a big philosophical discussion about that so and and we also very much have micro credentials not just for our company but for our technology for industry here's the problem when Google does that you have the brand recognition people know that you're putting out micro credentials that are quality if even a small percentage of the company my size the tens of thousands of companies that are my size if they start putting out micro credentials I think number one we're going to make HR's job really really complicated and we're going to have a huge nest of all these micro credentials that no one's going to be able to make any sense of if you go anywhere in the world you can be pretty sure that an electrical engineering degree is going to be pretty similar but these what could evolve as just this rat's nest of micro credentials the government of Kazakhstan I think was a great example so first question are you seeing more initiatives like that where there's there's some sort of consistency or structure around them and and does that worry you on a bigger scale if there isn't some sort of standardization of of these career paths and the quality of these micro credentials great question thank you so would we have a United Nations of credentials like so what's I can start I'm sure you know the rest of how can easily add to it so on the first question about sort of the amalgamation of micro credentials I think it you know what what kind of baselines to me is skills and and I think every particular job has certain skills at a certain proficiency level that are attached to be able to do that job as you can imagine right and I think so fundamentally no matter what microcredential it is if it is tied to a google IT support professional cert or IBM data analyst or SAP technician the the sales force sales development representative etc all these different types of certificates they're actually tied to specific job roles at an entry level and their map they're starting with what skills are required for this job to be done and then they're actually figuring out like okay all of the different components of teaching those skills but I think the other important question that you talked about like well how do I know this individual has the skills like if they are all coming from different pathways I think the skill based assessments become very important and interesting aspect of this and so we've been piloting this this new concept called course hiring solutions or the last few months in India and there are employers that are starting to use this solution to actually test and assess based on skills first and foremost and access bank is one of our customers that's been that actually recruited data analysts from tier two and tier three universities in India which they probably would have never gone to so I have I see a lot of hope now clearly there's a long way to go I would say the the second question on the examples we're definitely seeing that I think I think India is one of the the most I think at least thinking forward here by making policy changes so then their national education policy actually incorporated up to 40 percent of the credit for any degree could be offered through online or alternative means alternative means they're still asking for an assessment at the end of it so just to be sure like you're getting that before you give the credit but I think that's a very progressive policy and so that encourages economic institutions to actually be have that flexibility as well yeah I that's a great question and we struggle with it I can think of two two solutions but none of them are straight neither of them are straightforward the first the first solution is we actually do have a system of institutions that that do quality assessment they are called the higher education institutes and so if you link micro credentials with the qualifications given by a university or polytechnic there you have it you have the recognition and no polytechnic will you know will take a lousy microcretial and recognize it the question there is what incentivizes the higher education institution to do that because in a way they are disrupting themselves they are saying that this module need not be taken in class taught by my lecturers it can be done at your workplace so what how do we how do we you know get the incentives to align that's one the second solution is if you don't want to go to higher education institutes you go back to the government so the government becomes the one that says well that's a good company our trust is micro credentials and you know it may sound a bit undoable but if you look at for example what the UK is trying to do with the apprenticeship system that's that that's what they're trying to do they're trying to say this company good apprenticeship you pass my quality management so it's possible and it's doable but it's I'm afraid going down that path will end up with something quite bureaucratic and that comes from bureaucrats so so so none of them are straightforward but just just to just to put it out there we just have a few minutes left there's one more important question you would like to ask yes please sir and then we will wrap up maybe you can think about one example you want to give and this is a question about skills based hiring and whether you have evidence already or what the perspective is for the growth of these employees that are based that are hired based on these skills in terms of their ability to grow into middle and higher and level management because that that goes back to your point about well some of it is self investment in a sense it's investment toward towards a higher leadership positions it seems to me but I don't know if we have already some kind of evidence that tells us well these people are actually going to grow within the company or maybe not so I will and maybe you have some other stats but through grow with Google we've graduated you know over 300,000 who work across the 150 plus companies and we do track what they're doing some come in avail themselves of like education or tuition reimbursement programs they go in and get other degrees but become like fully they're taking advantage of the progression that's available to them and I think that's the ability to come in and make immediate contribution I think we need more time to get like more information about what the progression path looks like all the way through like executive leadership but I think the early signals are very strong yeah I'll just add a couple things to that I think we did a learner outcome survey we always do this and we just did this one back in March and when we pulled these professional certificate learners 28% of them said they found a job after completing these professional certificate of the completers right and so that's a starting point I wouldn't say that's the evidence in all by itself but that's very encouraging to kind of actually see people going through this alternative mechanisms are getting employed so employers are starting to recognize that I do think the bigger opportunity is to continue to help upskill these individuals once you're inside the organization and I think that's where we hear a lot of the organizations are focused on but I think the question really is are you taking a skills first approach to not only hiring but also training the individuals inside the company are you just kind of checking the box and saying learning is a perk learning is a benefit and we need to do that because you know everybody else has it right so I think that's what I would ask the enterprises to can actually investigate and then kind of continue to build the pathways because there is what I do here is a lot of employers are focused on internal mobility and you have a lot of these frontline workers or even workers that you know their jobs are getting digitized or automated and you can't just keep firing and then hiring and so actually we heard from people who have done the layoffs and who have done the hiding freezes well where do you go if you're frozen for hiring like you have to train internally to get to move them into still the requirements that are emerging in your company for those other kinds of jobs so that's where I think it's going to be a forced necessity I would say. Thank you very much we just have two more minutes and I would like to wrap up with you and ask you four of you to just conclude with the key to success we see there's a lot of issues but there's also a lot of good intentions a lot of things happening so what are the keys in your opinion to success could we start with you? Oh wow that's a big question so we have only two minutes I don't need probably 30 minutes to answer that question. Just one the most important. I think one of the most important things coming out of the the findings for us from this report which is individuals without degrees are able to gain skills required for the jobs of the future at the same pace as with degrees and so that gives a great platform for individuals out there but also companies to look for skills-based hiring and then institutions like governments and hire it actually combining and participating to create and open the doors. Thank you Melanie. I think the partnership between government higher education and corporations are critically important and we have to submit that even more I think that's evident by this discussion. Thank you very much. I think we're at the cornerstone of very very interesting times previously we had academia clear cut and we have skills clear cut right now university becoming much more skills focused you have credentials at times becoming a bit more academic so I think as a success you need to think of both as becoming more overlapping and create pathways for different people because not everyone will do a 40 degree or not everyone will just do one course then it has to be mobility between both tracks. I think I think one of the things that surprised me was the inherent interest among people especially successful people to want to teach others want to mentor others I had a we ran a during COVID we ran a train and place programs we got companies to train people to place outside of their companies and we asked you know are your employees happy with that and sometimes I said no they love it they they're not happy they love it they love to mentor people and I guess the key to success is to be able to unlock that in in in your company unlock that among the successful professionals and this is one way to give back and how do we do that together as government employer and as a public. Thank you very much so obviously the partnership is is one of the words coming out very strongly as well as thinking out of the box you also had the four A's I'm sure you noted them and and all this to avoid creating some excellent sheep so thank you thank you very much you have the future of jobs report you can look at it here you have it the QR code thank you very much for your participation