 Things I see folks coming on the line Hello excellent Good fun Liz will be a moment or so so I will hold for Liz to come on in kick us off Mark mr. Peak that that bookshelf is looking Little bear you might I've got something for you. We could Thanks Yeah, I'm still getting moved in here Mark your bookcase is empty, man I'm noticing a theme here Try that background option on zoom I hear it works really well. There you go That's a shot out my window Oh nice You either get a glamour shot or you get an empty bookcase. Don't make us choose Exactly I thought videos are original like with fire or super mario or what have you are giving mark trouble about his empty bookcase Um It seems to be the traditional thing this morning And it's recorded It's quickly running through to see all the folks that we've got on the wall I hear quite a few so Liz whenever you are ready to be able to kick us off All right, let's do it Good, just checking out and missing myself. All right Yeah, all the normal Intro slides welcome everyone you all made it right And I'm sure Amy you're keeping track of who's yep on the line Mostly today, we will be talking to the sakes. So without further ado, who do we have from sick app delivery? As I see he will mute Give him a second to unmute Hey, hello, I'm already up at the beginning. So yes, we've moved things around. I I I made things difficult for everybody So I thought I'm actually on time and now I'm actually late. Okay, that's great Okay, let's let's talk a bit about uh app delivery here Just very briefly. We got the review request for artifact hub for sandbox. Uh, we discussed it with Matt Uh already that what we want to have also presentation and also want to have an engagement obviously with the other projects That should integrate their content in there and we will have something hopeful in the next couple of uh Weeks there and also learn a bit more about especially artifact hub roadmap and who's going to contribute also from the cncf members because Pure third-party development. And so for all of the other projects in here that are kind of related like falco and and opa Would also be good for you to provide your feedback On artifact have and how you want to to work with it The hard work evaluation one, this is just ongoing. It has been most of the hard work has been done. We have Answered most of the questions This is just with us right now to just provide a final read through of this, but we're not expecting any bigger veto from from the app delivery website on the hardware here On the air gap working groups So for those who don't know what we have been doing so as we have split up the work in the into individual working groups It came out Of this and have people driving it. The first one was the air gap working group. So this is everything kubernetes Obviously running in restricted environments Here there is the first work really on best practices for installations on air gap in the wild but Is already available and developing best practices on top of it right now again focus is on kubernetes per se We all understand that we eventually have to look into applications, but there's not A lot of value of installing an application. They could need this environment if you can't install The actual cluster. So that's the work that's going on there. The second one is the operator Working group that focuses on operator related topics the first one will finish will be finishing the definition of operators So right now we do have a definition, but that definition is very high level like it's a crd and the controller We want to get more specific there. We also want to take best practices that are available around Operators from from various sources and and people have written about These best practices and start working on this interestingly about this Working group if you look at the charter document on the number of interested parties That's really interesting to look at that's the first working group It has more than one page of interested parties in this working group across organizations. So just more like the first page is just People who are interested so there's massive interest in that operator related work across a variety of organizations from Tool and software providers all the way through to end users They will have the first actual meeting after the getting started meeting Next week, if I'm not mistaken, I think next week Results are not yet there to present but expect something in the next months or so especially You have already something on like the air gap installs in the wild which is linked here And that's it pretty much from signal delivery Except one more related thing is that the helm graduation Public comment period is open until the end of today So please comment on them a mailing list. There have not been any comments at all So I can't believe no one has anything to say about helm graduation. So Please do comment And you sir have jumped the gun have another item about that at the very end of the meeting So you get to say it twice All right, anything else for app delivery Uh, no, I think unless there are questions, obviously There are no questions obviously, so that's Yeah, thank you Next app contributor strategy I'm not sure there might be here Yeah, I'm definitely here. Just want to double check that Paris isn't here And also not seeing people in okay Okay Well, we are in the process of getting the SIG in order The We've linked some issues there We're getting the SIG organized so that we can actually do work and setting up the repo and that sort of thing However, since we started this with a couple of projects in mind We're going to be launching a couple of those this week Paris is going to be starting Work on forming the maintainer circle which is The idea of a a peer help organization for the maintainers across cncf projects And I'm going to be launching the governance working group Because that's how I got involved in this in the first place In terms of providing guidance on on governance If any of those things interest people on this call listening to this call Our next meeting is this thursday So I if you can go ahead and join we have lots of things to do And unfortunately, I don't I'm not sure what's up With the AMA I'm here. My thanks. I'm late. Oh, ah, you want to talk with the AMA? Hey Um, so AMA we're gonna do this Since we meet bi-weekly One meeting every month is going to be dedicated to contributor maintainer AMA meaning Any maintainer can come and ask us any contributor strategy kind of question think Not like low-level Contributor office hours the high-level contributor office hours like hey, I have this you know this major issue or Hey, you know, how do I get 10,000? 10,000 more reviewers. Hey, I want to know too. But anyway, um that kind of stuff. So we're gonna do a send the word Spread the word send out here to the toc list and also do some kind of meta introductions about ourselves So that we can get more people interested and I think the best thing for everybody to help us with on the phone is just to spread the word Once we get some of this introductory information out there about us like a meta blog post and More information to mailing lists including other maintainer mailing lists That's I think the best thing is just information discoverability about us and spreading that around and letting people know that we're almost open for business We've got a lot of a lot of the other issues that are set right now are Issues about us and how we set up So, you know, once those floodgates open We want to make sure that everything looks good and You know and people have like the right communication inputs and outputs and things like that. So That's what the that's the AMI That's really cool Are the gb or is michelle and matt on the line by the way they are Michelle and matt can y'all join us at 10 a.m. P. T On thursday for just the first half hour. I know y'all are super busy or even 15 minutes Yeah Yes, I should be able to be there Sweet. Yeah, and I know matt you've got a you've got networking. So if y'all can come for the first half that would be awesome um, we want to ask you a ton of questions and see where we can collaborate and not only collaborate but enhance kind of what y'all do for the gb and with this crew can help you with from a contributor standpoint That's awesome. Yeah cool That's it for us. I think unless it's unless jared's on the line. Josh. Did you have anything else? Great, okay, wonderful progress. Who's our next sig network? Big network a short update today. Um, two topics, uh, both projects proposed for adoption One is chaos mesh proposed for sandbox the majority of the project contributors and maintainers are physically based in china and so While we typically hold the sig network, we typically hold the sig network meeting at an hour that is I wouldn't wish upon anyone In their time zone. So we're looking at moving that to an either an earlier meeting I'm at eight a.m. Pacific Or potentially a later one Uh, I think the later one would actually work better for most time zones Uh, the problem is that some of us have conflicts on that that day. So Uh, so we'll probably send out a quick, uh, survey on the mailing list to confirm that next meeting time But want to make sure that we're accommodating to the chaos mesh project team They've been in queue for a little while to present their project Second project that has been, um, proposed for Adoption at an incubation level is contour A contour is under active, um, diligence at the moment, um Ken Owens and Matt Klein are both Are both going through that diligence right now and confirming Positively confirming adopters of the project. Um, so just just got messages from both, um, ken and matt where There's all positive traction thus far on the diligence And so Uh, so yeah, so good good report progress there I think that that's it for the the SIG Good thing Great. Thank you, Lee Any questions on that? All right, let's go to SIG runtime Hey everyone, um Yes SIG runtime Um, so we have some project updates, um Virtual kubelet presented to the SIG about four weeks ago They're looking at going for incubation. Uh, so they wanted to know what it would take to get there So they presented and the SIG runtime team provided feedback and And basically they they're gonna add more documentation as far as the You know what works and what doesn't work In terms of the api so for those of you not familiar with the virtual kubelet It's a library that uh, simulates what the kubelet does so The documentation requested is, uh, you know, how that compares to what api the kubelet supports So once they have that they've already started a document and once they have that ready They'll come back to the SIG and and you know, we'll provide more feedback and Decide what the next steps are whether to start due diligence or Continue with more iterations so, uh harbor is applying for graduation and We're still waiting on some of the SIGs to do their review. So, um, SIG storage already completed their review, but we're waiting for SIG Uh App delivery to review their the help charts and we're also waiting for SIG security to complete their security assessment and then we'll consolidate those reviews and Send out we have a public document. We'll provide to the TOC for recommendation Whether to graduate or not Then there's a couple of projects in the pipeline Quay as a plan for incubation is a very similar project to harbor. It's a container repository. So I expect 13 to present in SIG runtime in the next couple of meetings or in the next meeting And then another one is metal cube. Uh, they're applying for sandbox. That's Bare metal provisioning of nodes or kubernetes nodes or bare metal machines Uh, uh, so I expect them to present. I think in the next meeting So, uh, the other item is uh, quinton and I met, um, to talk about the roadmap for the SIG And so we're looking at several things. Uh, so those include health checks of the projects You know container d built backs. I think kubernetes is pretty good right now But there are some other projects that you know, uh, they Uh, we might want to check on on their health Uh, so we also want to identify some existing gaps on on these projects Some technologies that are not currently in the ecosystem that maybe you want to talk to some Uh, projects that may want to join the cncf Uh, we want to continue educating users in community about these existing projects Uh, what they can do so end users are important. So I mean kubernetes is, uh, Very popular and a lot of people know about About the project but some of the other projects are not as popular So then we may want to Provide more education on on some of those other projects We want to Continue performing due diligence in projects whether they're applying for incubation or graduation Uh, we want to define some interactions with some of the other cncf6 and other community groups What would it take what would those interactions? look like There's some roles that we still need to identify so as far as tech leads. So we want more participation And also we're looking for ascribes for for our meetings So this roadmap is open for comments So anyone Will be able to make any comments. So the idea is to leave it open for about Two weeks and from there we'll decide, uh, you know, what what will be the priority or what some of these items will will take on So another item is that Related to the roadmap is that we reached out to several communities to participate. So, um, some of those are Uh The Kubernetes signaled. Uh, we have kata containers Uh, g visor the web assembly community and the firecracker communities. So we wanted to get some participation from them Um, let's do to get more You know people interested in there in the same We're looking for another to see liason. Uh, we already have brendan burns as a liaison. Uh, but, uh Uh The the reason when how two liaisons is for backup purposes and in case one of the liaisons is not available and the other one can fulfill that duty So there are some people interested in the toc, but that hasn't been finalized and we expect that to happen pretty soon and then At our last meeting we had our presentation from kata containers. So Uh, what's a very informative presentation and you know, this is some of the things that we want We'd like to do going forward to have some of these communities come in and present about their technologies And yeah, and that's it for the updates for a second runtime Any questions And ricardo, uh, the salina, um, I just I just wanted to say that I would like to be the toc liason for a second time or Awesome. Yeah If there's a lease that you're considering currently just know that I'm off for it Okay, great. Great. So yeah, um I don't know what the process is to officially become a toc liason. I guess, uh, maybe list getting Startup process or Yeah, I don't it's a good question I don't think we have a documented process for how that happens other than members of the toc volunteering or being um Yeah, and I I've actually just raised an issue because our current documentation of sygniasons is out of date So, yeah, we should Yeah, but unless anyone else on the toc goes no, I want to do it. I think that would be marvelous Fantastic. Oh, we can catch up Yeah Yeah, right. Was there any other questions or are we That's the team we can go on to seek security. Hello Hey so, uh before getting to the meat of updates from to the brief, uh, just wanted to share with folks that, uh Both of my co-chairs have been impacted by COVID-19 not directly Sarah's been self-quarantining in Boston, so both are stuck Not at home. Sarah's in Boston and JJ's in India and stuck there So So our, um, you know, one of our main areas of focus and sort of the stability in Um, in that is the harbor graduation due diligence anchoring the work around You know, what security is providing? diligence in our security assessment process sort of most mature and process and Link here to The overall assessment we um formed the team under Svega is going to be taking point in the security review and we have an illustrious team of reviewers and observer who is participating and will be Working through that over the the next few weeks so You know that that timeline is a little bit slower Given everyone dealing with the pandemic But we're able to move forward and don't see any Um, any blockers to us being able to lead our development's progress graduation so um I think one of the things I was hoping that we can get onto your radar is the um dragonfly Uh, which I think could This is actually based on some some comments from justin. I think it could usefully use some Uh advice from the security Yeah, I think it would be valuable for dragonfly to get an assessment Great Well, uh, let's get them pr'd into the repo and We'll kick off the process Right There's also there's also a couple of projects that were discussed last week Uh, I think there's also waiting for a six security key cloak and ti kv So key cloak. I know is uh teed up for may ti kv i'm not You know, let's make sure we get a uh pr into the the security repo because it's none of my radar Yeah, ti kv. I think primarily falls under sig storage So we'll be certainly looking at it in the next few days But but there are aspects that are, you know, security related as with almost all projects. I think I think this is a probably a Syndrome we're going to come across where every project needs security review pretty much So I guess we should figure out how how security is going to kind of deal with that Not very well, we're ramping up You know each each process We go through we Expand the team and uh, we we've seen increased commitment to our reviewers so we're building momentum to be able to Sustain that and i'm really happy with the maturity and us sort of you know going back to the security assessment as that being Core wheel houses is you know sort of emphasizing That uh that muscle For the muscle all right. I just found the dragonfly pr and Uninactivated it if that's a verb All right, great Is any other questions for six security all right six storage then all right, so Uh last week's meeting was cancelled. Uh, we didn't have um, we had wanted Uh, travega to present but they moved it out a couple weeks. So it's queued up for tomorrow so if anyone's interested in Hearing about that project, please join us. Um, and our backlog is all cut up I did have a last-minute addition to the slide that didn't get put in Uh for real graduation the project has updated to the current template is requested by the toc That was just posted about Sorry about that. Can you guys hear me? I got Hello, sorry So anyways, Brooke, uh, we've already suggested for graduation that they've updated to the proper template. So that should be ready to roll That's all we have Okay any question What is going on? What was that? I got booted. Yeah, I think zoom is just Booting people. Oh, I thought it was my network. I got dropped and then came back in again Oh, it was zoom. Was it okay? Me too Yeah, I assumed it was my network too when you have seven people on the same hub at home. It's Nope, we're seeing a lot of people getting kicked off, but there are slides. We will we will follow up with slides as needed 20 million to 200 million in the last few weeks, so Yeah, one better stand if they have some scaling issues Does anybody know if they're running on kubernetes? That's what I want to know. I wanted to know that too We should ask Whatever they built on it successful Could you reload the slides, please? Me have been busy in the background That's gonna be challenging work with what you got here No, okay Oh, you can't you can't reset. Okay. Um Oh, wow. Yeah, that's the old vote. So hi everybody If I guess I will just talk to what the other slide says on So we passed the to see vote. The SIG exists Um, we have a new liaison uh, brennan burns Uh We have two chairs To start off with and we're working on finalizing the third We've got a proposal for our first tech lead and we've merged the charter And let me hand it off to ritchie to talk through the rest Yes, so, um the next steps as you know, you can't see them anymore Um, so anyway, I'll just talk for you the next step. Oh, thank you list the next steps. Um We will expand the content which we currently have content or comments are are appreciated We will work through all our issues and such Um, we need to select and vote the tech lead. There is one open question on there that actually happens Is it the talk list or is it the Is it the SIG list? We just don't know we just want to We need to know so we can start that process Um, we are yet to set up recurring meeting times, but now that we we actually have the SIG That's one of the next things we are going to do um, and As a general fyi cortex was the only thing within cncf space, which did some pretty early update So it makes sense that that would be the first thing we would be looking at as a group and with the tech lead That's more or less it So again, we have this one open question and if anyone else have any questions now's the time So is the question being able to schedule your meeting times or how to be able to get a tech lead up Uh, technically, uh, we'll do the meeting times ourselves. Um, how do we do the tech lead selection properly? Like we write the docs and everything, but where should we have that vote? My recollection I this it is documented because I Recall going through this with some other six my recollection is that uh, yeah the the SIG chairs nominate and The No, no The toc has to vote for the Chairs and the Toc plus the chairs vote for the Tech leads Is that process documented anywhere It is definitely documented and don't take my word a hundred percent for it, but it definitely is Yes, the the process is documented and we are following the process the only question which is not Coming or not answered in the docs and in the process. Where does the actual vote happen? Should it happen on the toc mailing list or should it happen on the SIG working on the SIG mailing list? That's the only thing which which is open everything else is answered and documented Okay, I would say TSE mailing list because not all TSE members will be on all the SIG Okay. Oh, I just realized we actually have the old version of the uh, yeah, sorry for the confusion That was supposed to be Changed that question that open question. Yeah, sorry. I see where the confusion is coming from Okay, so we will we'll do that on the toc list understood. Thanks I'll also briefly mention that we have a number of other folks that are interested In various capacities of tech lead and contributing to the SIG. So Yeah, we'll we'll have an update next time around and Yeah, regarding which mailing list I would just suggest just distributing in on both I'm sure there's interest from both parties Ultimately, only the TSE members and the chairs get to vote anyway, but the rest can observe Sounds good Okay Hello Six seven is yes. So hey, it's it's Doug and mark is on as well to cover for me where I get it wrong So those of you may have been following the SIG serverless discussions. We've been kind of dragging our feet a little mainly because we're we're not quite sure whether There was worthy of a separate SIG or we're going to try to merge it into SIG runtime or app delivery or one of the other ones And also we didn't like the name serverless. We couldn't we wanted more abstract names So we're kind of we're dragging our feet for a whole bunch of reasons and and we finally decided Okay, we needed to kind of pull the trigger and actually do it because really there really wasn't a good home for things like the cloud event spec the workflow spec and the things that we're actually working on And since everything needs a SIG, we said, okay, we'll just bite the bullet and do it And so this you can see the link to the pr in there And we we put together pr with the draft charter in there and what we decided to do was to have the serverless SIG focus more on Technologies that more that are more focused on delivering a simplified user experience. So the way to look at this is you may have a A platform like say k-native as an example even though it's not in cncf Something like k-native that's just trying to take an underlying technology like kubernetes And simplify it for the end users so that they're trying to hide the technology that's used under the covers So SIG serverless won't get into kubernetes But it'll get into the technology that makes life easier for the developer and that's probably the easiest way to think of it And that that easier user experience or developer experience isn't just for how you deploy your application Maybe it's how you manage your application in terms of like workflow how events maybe flow from From your various functions, right? Or maybe but how you connect up those applications to back end services, right? So it's not how that linking gets done through config maps and secrets But rather how that gets exposed to the end user That's where we think our sweet spot is more on sort of the developer experience side of things Okay, and you can sort of see some examples that are listed in there in terms of you know abstracting away the platform orchestration workflow Interoperability is obviously a big one because we want people to be able to take their application the ports into one platform to another um integrations of those workloads with back end services stuff like that and those sort of Examples hopefully at least cover what we're currently working on things like cloud events and the new specifications for cloud events as well as service workflow In terms of deliverables and action and stuff. It's kind of what we're already doing in the current working group, right? Keeping the landscape up to date The white paper or new ones if we need it Promoting serverless where possible. So for example, our working group is very heavily involved in the development and the um the activities around the serverless practitioner summit that kube cons And obviously collaborate with the other sigs and projects as we go forward um That's the kind of alluded to we we were struggling with where we fit relative to the other sigs And as I said probably the best way to think of it is By example, right runtime will own kubernetes The serverless will talk about the workflow that leverages kubernetes under the covers where the hopefully the workflow is Presenting it in a simplified user experience or developer experience way Right. So hopefully a workflow user won't know necessarily they're using kubernetes under the covers All they know and care about is how do I get my workflow to kick off and to run Containers, but how those containers are actually managed on the covers is hidden from them is sort of the goal And if we are actually approved as a sig Then the serverless working group will just sort of fade away and because we're sort of looking at this as a morphing of the Working group into the sig So we're not looking at really a whole bunch of new and different activity at this point in time Um just sort of continue what we're doing Honestly, though, I do kind of expect that the current working group might have to actually split its work into more of a Uh project type of meeting versus an administrative type of meeting And that probably would happen once we get more projects brought under the umbrella of sig serverless Because we can't do everything in one hour meeting every week. Uh, so we may have to do a split at some point But as of right now We do we are able to manage all four projects under one Weekly meeting And I think that's about it. Obviously we are looking for a sig days on if someone wants to volunteer to to take on that role But otherwise at the at the very high level, this is more of a morphing of the current working group into a sig more than anything else And let me sort of pause there and see mark. Did I miss anything? I think you covered everything and Be good to get some feedback from other people on this Yeah Question has a has a question on the on the chat I think a lot of people probably have the same thing in mind app delivery like helm. How does that kind of stuff Relate to serverless Yeah, I honestly I suspect we're probably going to get this question a lot and the best answer I could give is When you look at a technology like helm It's still pretty much Focused on a user who understands Kubernetes, right? At least from my perspective And so I would not actually expect helm To be a serverless project because to be honest, it's a little too technical and geeky. It doesn't hide enough of the underlying technology That's the kind of the way I look at it But I think we're gonna have to look at each project on a case-by-case basis and I know that's not the best answer But that's the best I can come up with it I mean sig app delivery is not not not help. I think it goes a bit further. I can see the overlap here And I think it might require a bit of a deeper discussion that broader group maybe should have like the serverless People together with the potential six hours people Together with the delivery people. I like the direction that you're going. I can see a split of responsibilities there as much as I can see as an overlap As we look into the delivery part of it, but not necessarily how you Define or you do together an application, which is not in our focus too much right now We're also seeing overlap and there is work and work that has not been started But should have been started maybe Is around the whole application definition work that we wanted to to dive deeper into which is projects like oem And and and others where we still don't have a good model of how we actually define an application Maybe this is something that would also fall Into this working group by what I can offer is that we get the two working The the serverless working group and at delivery gets together and we figure out the way Or we figure out how closely related we are and Whether we're closely within it enough to kind of merge things or where we want to keep them separate Or if there's a splitting point that that would be microcosm here Okay. Yeah, I'll reach out to you offline. We'll see if we can set up a time to talk Um, yeah, like I said, I think this is going to be a continuing discussion whether we have this dig or not um and to be honest There was part of the time we were trying to figure out a good word to say, you know other stuff SIG other stuff kind of thing because Can you look at something like cloud events if there is no good home for right now? Right in the in the current six and so That that that was why we kind of dragged our feet. We weren't quite sure what to do with these other things So, but yeah, well, I'll reach out to you. We'll set up a call Yeah, and maybe to this point. Yeah, we we don't want to become everything So it's I think the way we did it also for observability and other things is a few more It's the umbrella one and we don't The path went a bit wider but not really deep And we're ignoring some of those deep topics Um, and this might be the same case here Like there's like one or two bits and pieces that we might want to address while the rest is over there That's why I want to have this discussion and I think the next time we can provide a better update But but I agree SIG absolutely. We shouldn't become everything simply Because we want to have some work iPhones at the end of the day Yeah, so Michelle your comment and the chat is interesting. Yeah, this I'm SIG past you are you referring to SIG serverless or SIG? after delivery when you when you say SIG serverless is going to Focus on the developer experience and I'm strapped in the way abstracting away this these underlying components and that is essentially a pass and Um, you know, we've we've had long discussions around whether we want to uh, host pass type projects, um in the In the cncf. So if that's the direction then we need to kind of come around and have another um discussion about it Michelle what is the current position? regarding whether we want to host has Uh software in the cncf. I mean superficially it seems to me like it would be a good idea But but it sounds like there is a counter-argument. Is that true? There's a scope the scope is quite large It's not its own vertical necessarily I mean you can make it wine if you really scope it in a particularly worded way But um, it's going to use components from other SIGs like storage and observability And so it's not its own independent vertical necessarily it becomes this horizontal layer that sits on top of all of the SIGs um, and we thought that Initially when we were talking about SIGAP delivery, you know, there was just so many other things that we wanted to to get to foundational components and building blocks that we wanted to figure out the terminology for and and You know discuss and debate and figure out the landscape for that. I mean that on its own is a is a large scope so, um, I think we decided Though Paz kind of fits in under app delivery That's not the direction that will go towards and if that's something that people want to work on We would form a working group first and just think Paz is just a hairy beast and I don't know that um That that's a place that we as a community want to focus on in the cncf Yeah So just for the record if if a Paz project comes to the cncf and says we would like to donate our project Is is our answer right now? No go and find another foundation or or Please speak to SIGAP delivery or or something else Uh, I don't think that we've had uh Paz project come in so I don't think we've given our recommendation just yet Uh, so I'd have to discuss. I think the TOC would have to have a discussion around this Many of the TOC the current TOC aren't the same as The ones previously. So there's no recommendation right now Okay, I mean it sort of seems inevitable that that will happen. So we should probably Start that discussion and decide what what our position on it is Yeah, and you should discuss whether this foundation is the right foundation for that. Um, I Maybe cloud foundry is a place that or a foundation we should talk to and figure out what our relationship is and see if they What they think about it I don't know if you guys are following the chat, but it's uh, you you could see the dilemma we had right? People keep asking about well, does this go into serverless or does it go into Paz and There are things that just don't seem to fit in the existing things and That's why we're struggling with the word serverless because we would think You know, it's it's not quite accurate because it's almost like a okay This project doesn't go any place like cloud events doesn't fit in any existing SIG, but needs to go someplace So SIG miscellaneous, right? I don't I don't know what to call this thing Yeah, let's um, I think you pointed to a pull request, right? Yeah Yeah, so let's uh, let's go back and um, you know kind of Go through what we've proposed here. I think serverless is a really important topic But I understand like the wording is a little complicated and we need to like think more about that um And what the implications are and what our our vision Is here and just kind of be on the same page on on where the boundaries are so um, I think yeah Let's let's take that as an action item okay Yeah, obviously um Even after this phone call lots of comments on the pr would be welcome because any help we can get to To crisp up the definition to reduce the confusion be most appreciated Definitely. I'm looking forward to this by the way. Thank you. Yep Any other questions? Sounds good, and I think it'd be great if um, you know app delivery and SIG serverless Can uh can can figure out a boundary between between themselves that would be amazing. Yep. We will definitely try All right, okay. Thank you everybody If any of the TOC members want to sort of put themselves forward as a liaison sounds like that is also available right now Yes for the cheap low price of zero All right, and if nobody is rushing straight away we can we can find a volunteer later Always assuming that this kind of you know, we find a good definition for it. All right Thanks. Thank you Okay, is that all the six Great so, uh Oh, my mind's gone blank. Who's been doing triage this We uh, we have passed off to justin cormac shing. Um, uh, what's helpful in last week I put these two in here and justin this is now your time to shine Um, yeah, so as I mentioned before helm has another uh, I was public comment period till the end of today. Please make any um comments you like and Ah, and um that's I um I added this because there's been a lot of discussion on the mailing lists about this Yes, I'm not sure if this was a a a time to be able to put this directly in place Yeah, the the issue about a sick is I'm like, it's like Things like car events. We don't have a sick for everything. Um I also and that's is a bit of a special case because we have had some discussions about this last year where, um, uh the I I mean we didn't hold a vote so I can't say for sure, but I would say that the sentiment was that it was uh passing the criteria apart from uh, maintaining neutrality I believe there have been some changes on that front. I haven't checked them out yet Yeah, there's there's a lot of comments on the issue and there's been an updated Description and there's a long discussion with Matt so I think it's um It certainly changed since before um so I think it um I think it probably makes sense to go for a vote I mean, I think it's not it's it's I think it's worth reading the discussion but I think the discussion like several I think um Guys, I guess I have missed between all of the various things that all of us do. I think I missed the notion that uh, the NATS pull request was in need of a SIG being assigned at um Unless there's a dissenting opinion, um, the a couple of the NATS contributors and maintainers that might even be on this call but they've certainly been attending the SIG network Meetings since its inception. I think it was generally understood that sort of SIG network was home base so to speak for uh traffic traffic things network things which was inclusive Yeah, I mean that's directly my sense to me Same thing. Yeah. So the problem with NATS though is that we are actually going to have to figure out our overall position to the uh maintainer status, right? And it's not clear to me that we've actually decided that I I have heard I have not checked into this but I did hear that there have been some changes to their maintainers Oh, there have been okay I haven't confirmed Right because either there would have to be changes to their maintainer status or we'd have to change our graduation criteria Um, but it feels like we should circle back with the SIG either way We probably actually to be fair to NATS We should look at the maintainer situation uh, that yeah If that is going to be a blocker, there is no point the SIG looking at it and there's no point SIG spending the time on it or NATS getting, you know, led down a particular road. So let's um TSE folks, let's all Take a look at the maintainer situation there and see whether we think it's improved Okay, sounds good There's been a fairly long email conversation as well. I think on the SIG mailing list I was sort of part of putting some of those guidelines together in the beginning and also consulting with NATS on that So uh, happy if you want to pull me into that discussion Great appreciate that Quinton. You can be helpful. You have all the history All right. So is that everything that is waiting for TSE input on All the project I had for project boards. So moving on towards questions Is anybody else aware of anything that we should be looking at or not? Please, there's a lot It'd be delighted to be told that I've missed something and there's something else out there No going once going twice All right Stay safe everyone That's us done Thank you. Goodbye. Bye everyone. Bye. Bye