 rights around the world on think tech live broadcasting from our downtown studio on Honolulu Hawaii and Moana Nuiakea. I'm your host Joshua Cooper and today's episode is the International Court of Justice Initiative action for the advisory opinion at the world court and we're here live in the hay focusing on advocacy by Pacific Islands at the peace palace and looking at the Vaca voyage to navigate the UN and we're very fortunate to be joined by the world youth for climate justice. Burt thank you so much for taking time. I have amazing two days in the hay. Thank you so much Joshua and indeed it's amazing to have met I finally met you here in the hay and I'm here on behalf I just said on behalf of World Street for Climate Justice. It is a global movement that has young people on different fronts from all around the globe. I'm based in the hay so I'm from European front we have fronts in South America obviously the Pacific where we started Asia and we were all around the globe and we're trying to grow as a movement and hopefully one day we'll also have a front on the highlight. Thank you so much just wondering as youth what inspired you to be involved for climate justice initially and then what are you doing these days on a daily level to combat the climate crisis? Yeah amazing question so let's start with the first question like how I came into climate justice and how it started out for me. I think being a Dutch citizen being a Dutchie I would say the brunt of the rising tide has always been a sort of element in which we were faced upon from a young age. So when I was younger we it was very normal to start learning how to swim at the age of four and so on. So the water was always a sort of we're always in the fight with water that's how we started out right so that that's the first basic steps of every Dutch citizen's life you start out with learning how to swim. But later on you you find out that but wait a minute why are we fighting this water and why is it rising on other places at the same time? I mean we are part of the delta in the Netherlands so it makes sense that we are living on borrowed land literally so for our situation it's not per se only the rising tide due to climate change but also mainly due because of our poor location. But on other small island developing states for example you see that because of the brunt of the climate crisis these islands are literally drowning because of our consumer problem or the ways in which we consume. So it just dawned upon me that wow that reality that we have here is not because of choice but it's by design by a faulty system and I wanted to find out how in order how could I stop that and what is the tools what tools do I have to prevent that? What do you do on a daily basis and what do you focus on? Yeah thank you so what we do on a daily basis it's difficult to pinpoint like what we actually do every single day it's obviously different but the first two things the first main things that pop up into mind are tirelessly advocating and working together with other young people to create a common voice and that sounds a little bit strange if you don't know what I mean but what I'm trying to say is we're trying to create a story based upon how the climate crisis is impacting human rights and you do that by educating others by showing and by telling them how we are trying to combat this with this initiative at the ICJ. It's easy to to talk about it but it's also the difficult part in this all is how to make it understandable for everyone to join in. Not everybody is a law student not everybody has a law degree so you want to join forces because in the end the climate crisis is a common price we have we face like the second week we all face that in the future so in order to get all people on board on the same train you need to have them or and to say in the in the in the walk-up terms all aboard on the same boat obviously you need to make it more accessible for everyone so like lower the threshold and I would say that that's a daily basis a daily challenge that I that I'm trying to uh yeah trying to achieve in order to make sure that the climate justice that we do on a daily basis is more understandable for everyone and also obviously like being conscious with your environment so uh live in in harmony with your environment is very important I would say and uh that can be like obviously it can be showing respect for the lands you walk on and live on so like keeping your streets clean obviously but it can also mean helping out your neighbors in in finding for them the finding solutions for them in how to uh for example like uh get rid of I would just say like some pests that they have in a garden like on a on a friendly way like in a climate friendly way the climate neutral way that can be a thing uh like act locally and inspire global is also what I always like to say no that's great and you really do make the connection where you can see up but growing up in Hawaii of course we spend time with the ocean as well and we respect nature and you're there in the hag and you grew up also by the ocean so we all have this common island earth as you said and we're all aboard the same baka or this couldn't going in the right direction so that's exciting and when I think about the way you shared it it's very personable and that was the conference so we were at the international court of justice and we're looking at climate change and international law and the main area we're looking at is the promise of an advisory opinion from the international court of justice we have four panels one of the panels I thought was so exciting that maybe you could share also because people don't know about the your agenda case maybe you could share with us about the agenda case and the human rights turn and how climate litigation is now playing this new role and we can go through a couple of the panels and some of those highlights for our audience who weren't able to be at the peace palace yeah so the agenda case or agenda case uh is a Dutch litigation case uh created by uh a group of stakeholders and it was actually open for every citizen to join in to become a stakeholder uh which which was the case against the government and they basically said that the government was failing to meet its climate ambitions and they used uh articles two and eight of the european um uh human rights um uh convention thank you yeah I'm I should notice because I wrote my thesis on this for a part but not but thank you uh so like the youth article two and eight and uh the basis was that like they eventually won they went through uh like in they went through like the local uh local courts then like to the uh to like the higher courts and then eventually at the highest supreme court in the Netherlands and they won uh and that case made it possible like it showed that litigation actually was a tool to enforce climate action from our government um so whenever you mentioned the word agenda within the the the square kilometer of the hake of like the political heart of the Netherlands uh you'll see a lot of politicians sweating profoundly because it's still a traumatic experience to see that like the courts are becoming more active and actively saying that the government should uphold their promises you cannot make promises that you did that you did not deliver on that's that's just not how it works because uh let's face it the climate crisis is in such uh it's it's in the the state of our earth is in such terrible state right now that we just cannot accept it to wait any longer and we need to like take that into hands right now uh so that's how the litigation case that the organic case was so groundbreaking because it showed that the courts were open uh and were were a possibility for for everyone basically to make it sure that our governments are accountable for their missions that are accountable for their lack of climate action and her and as you said it it is profound and it also inspired more people to use human rights lens for the liberation of humanity to protect our planet and are there other cases that are also along the lines that people could be aware of related to human rights and and climate litigation that you could share with some of our audience um so there are multiple cases in other European countries that basically sprung off of the Ergenda case like it basically created a sort of a uh I would say yeah like it's it ignited a few sparks all around the globe um the the thing is though that the reasoning behind like the reason why they use articles to an European convention human rights convention was because um that convention is actually saying like to make it sure that there's a livable like that that the government has a responsibility like to create a livable uh atmosphere like livable livable place for for their citizens and it is a very open to interpretation norm right so it's not defined very very clearly better courts so that also like leaves it open for interpretation but at the same time it goes to show that the courts do not accept this let's this um openness or like vagueness that's in the law to be used against the people that are suffering from the climate price so in a way it is a very um yeah I would say transformative position that the court has taken and the courts are taking right now because they see that like you know honestly what would be the next step but the people are trying to people are seeking for the court because that's their final straw um I would say that like this is the final step the final legal megan mechanism that we have as activists and young people and and also the elderly obviously um before uh yeah before there's no the order optional so like this is our way of saying listen we want to think within the system that we have right now we want to think uh like we want to change the system that we are currently having but we can only do it like for peaceful ways and for ways that we have created in the law and let us do it like allow us to be peaceful and allow us to to use these methods and these mechanisms that we have uh and give us the rights that we so universally uh hold there no it's a really good point because we are taking the world's biggest problem to the highest so it's quite crucial yeah and it reminds me of panel two that was chaired by mama do I think that bringing climate change before an international courts and tribunals there was some really good analysis from Cambridge and Singapore and looking at the UN law of the sea maybe expand on that a bit to share some of the the kernels of knowledge that we can all gain as you said bringing it to these highest bodies yeah so mama do is actually he's one of my lecturers at the light university so that's very interesting like it was amazing and this panel was a very good one too uh but indeed you see different uh legal uh like you see you have different courts right so you have the international court of justice you have the international tribunal of the law of the seas um but why we focus with this campaign on the ICJ particular is that the ICJ is as you said it before Joshua the highest court every single member state that is a part of the UN respects and recognizes the judgments of the ICJ when the ICJ says something it basically becomes the law that's how you should that's how people that's how governments deem it but an advisor opinion is a special tool it's it's not binding in the traditional way it means that whenever the court gives an advisor opinion which can only be requested by the member states themselves uh through a process that we're currently are unrolled rolled in but I'll tell you later um so it means that like whenever the court gives us such an opinion um it just isn't advised less as it says an advisory opinion but at the same time this advice has a lot of legal and moral authority which it carries with it so for example whenever imagine we also like say with our campaign it's not uh it's not if but when we get the advisor opinion um so like imagine a couple of years when we have the advisor opinion we'll go to a national court yeah so imagine you're in in Germany for example you can actually prove to the court and you can show them this is what the UN highest court has said they have deemed and they've ruled that climate change is actually affecting our human rights so um it goes to show that it provides a legal fundament an illegal basis for so many cases and so many future litigation uh that the international court of justice is the only route for this biggest problem that we have and therefore that's why the the campaign is focusing on the ICJ because uh the ICJ alone has this international universal recognition of authority and um yeah the the the legal power which is carries with it no no it's a really good point and so when we see those lawyers and you know people who have done the strategy that was the deepest part of people looking why different bodies should be pursued so in a way it was telling us as we're all getting in this vodka let's know where we're headed and a lot of people talked about the star compass so in a way we at least have the best sort of navigators the master navigators sharing with us like we in Hawaii had before we sailed Hokulea to Tahiti and around the world we had Mao share with us that knowledge and they were able to then in a way provide some guidance of which one we should pursue and how that be done and then that really puts us to you know where we are today today was uh i'll quote you hey so let's go so most people don't know what an advisory opinion is from the ICJ do you want to share everyone a bit about the power of the ICJ and an advisory opinion yeah of course so uh for example like a very good uh like a very known example is um the ICJ nuclear uh like WHO advisory opinion on the nuclear use of nuclear weapons for example and um ironically I would say the ICJ uh the the international court of justice did not deem the usage of nuclear weapons as uh illegal so like it was not under international law uh on call for to use nuclear weapons uh which obviously it was not a unanimous opinion because there was also a dissenting opinion and this is the most famous I mean every law student knows this every law student knows this public international law so that I should say knows this dissenting opinion from a judge we're a country he was a Sri Lankan judge and he actually wrote it was like working pages dissenting opinion on why he deemed the usage of nuclear weapons uh to be like to be not very respecting any human rights whatsoever at any given point there was no justification to use nuclear weapons according to the judge and you see that even though that it was not a unanimous opinion it was still a dissenting opinion it is still being used to this day by scholars by students in their reports in their judge in like in their uh I mean judgments as well sometimes like it's it's still being used even though that it was a dissenting opinion uh because these 15 lawyers 15 judges that are sitting in the court um are the highest judges of them all so they have that power and they can actually influence jurisprudence they can influence a public debate and they can also influence an international debate that we have on certain topics so that is why the outcome of the advisory opinion itself is of course very important but the road towards the advisory opinion is also very important and that's why we're stressing for example that when we're at the court we need to have young people to be vocal we need to have indigenous voices to be heard within the chambers of the court because it cannot be any longer that um we'll only like that we're only standing on the outside like I mean you were there too just right there's a lot of security and before you can enter the international court like there's a large defense we want to have young people and indigenous people to be there at the court's grounds when we have the proceedings there because in the end it is also their human rights we're fighting we're standing for we're fighting for and I think that that element should become more known it is not about statistics it's not about only numbers no we're talking about human lives and uh quite frankly right now we're on a path which is a death sentence for a lot of indigenous people and a lot of people that are living on small island developing states and we cannot accept that we should not accept that we should never allow that to happen um so yeah and that way that the ICJ is in my opinion the only court that has this unique role a unique position that we um need to use as a fullest and great to look at the dissenting opinion also the excitement of the panel three was the experience of everyone there had really brought an advisory opinion before the court before and everyone in the audience was some of the greatest legal minds ever assembled by the blue law ocean bringing that together bringing the different leiden university it was exciting to see the activists the artists the advocates all pulling out their creative campaign tools and techniques to see what is possible and that panel was exciting because it was chaired by vanuatu who the one that is formally launching the campaign for an advisory opinion at the un general assembly can you maybe share how this campaign got started by you yeah yeah so um it's good to know it all started by young people in the pacific and it started at the university of the south pacific in the pacific region obviously and it was during a class of public international law I believe where Justin who was it was the teacher of some of the students salomon is one of the main leading forces behind the student's fighting climate change he showed and he told him about about an advisory opinion attempt in 2011 or 2012 I'm not I'm not sure which got basically torpedoed by the United States so there was because the international court of justice gets to know was of is the is the only UN body that has never spoken about climate change the only body and we're in 2022 right now so the climate crisis has been known for quite some time now um so it started out there with these young students saying you know what to hell with it we'll try it again we need to have our rights to be heard we we cannot live on a planet because we're literally drowning here so they went to the cup cup 25 in Madrid Spain and they met up with young students from Vietnam from the Philippines from the Netherlands from Aruba they came together and they said let's do this let's bring this uh let's let's make sure that we can actually take another shot at bringing this to the international court of justice and it was so interesting because Vanuatu stepped up and showed leadership and said you know what we will present this and we will bring this forward at the United Nations because it's good to know that only member states can do this right so uh Vanuatu said we'll do this we'll show the leadership but at the same time respecting that this is a youth initiative like that they want to have young people to be involved with the youth campaign so like we have this youth campaign and wait to Vanuatu campaign which are going side by side with the same objective which is seeking climate justice and climate justice is not only having a piece of paper written and telling that human rights are being affected by the climate change no climate justice is further is more than that it's also talking about equity it's talking about uh the damages that have been done the loss of biodiversity and nature it's all a part of that and we really hope that in the in the court's advisory opinion these elements will come forward and also will be shown and will be known for all the people um so that's like a short small overview on how it started back then uh but you see like in three years we're we're currently here we're all around the global we came to the Hague and you see so many people being inspired uh two days ago and Sunday we had a climate march in Rotterdam they hit in the Netherlands there were 10,000 people hearing about about this campaign so it's growing and it's amazing no it's great because we are commemorating the 77th anniversary of the creation of the UN Charter in San Francisco and uh International Court of Justice is the principal legal organ of the UN so as you're sharing it's really a moral and legal call to urgent action by the youth and it's a great partnership to see youth from Oceania coming together with countries and Vanuatu has such a legacy of standing up for self-determination for West Papua and always working for Pacific Islanders and I think that's the main point they're bringing there's a certainty there's a clarity but they're like we fought so hard for our independence and we have this right of self-determination in this case if nothing else is an example of self-determination in that right under international law yeah exactly and and that's the thing Joshua I think that that self-determination element is so important because people often tend to forget that the self-determination of peoples is is is one of the most basic human rights and especially when we discuss this people always tend to think that this is a very new notion but it's not true actually back in the in the 1600s or the 1700s when Grosius was the inventor of international law you already had Spanish scholars legal scholars telling that all indigenous peoples had their own actual claims on land their own rights and their own the self-determination but then we came in with the western colonization we took it all away from them we set them back a couple hundred years and right now you see the same happening in forms of neocolonialism by corporations or by large multinationals so what we're trying to say is at the same time it is also at the core of this ICJ advisory opinion that we tend to let the people that are suffering from it to be at the core of it and that them speak first of all and that's why we are really focusing on them to be present at the court to let them be vocal to let all of the world know that this is a case of the people by the people and not despite that's a great point and as we're closing I know what will happen next after this global gathering here at the peace palace where we have the upcoming UN General Assembly in September yes and then there's the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change Congress 27 hosted in Egypt how can people around the planet participate and be part of this powerful campaign and process for positive social change and climate justice thank you so much for this amazing question so first of all people can become a friend of the initiative so I would recommend everybody to go to wy4cj.org which is our website it can check out uh numerous ways on how to get involved with the campaign you can start your own local front your own you can join a local campaign it can also write to your representatives write to your senators write to your government officials about this campaign about this upcoming vote because it is in the end a vote that is going about all of our lives together so they need to recognize our human rights and I would recommend for all to like that are currently looking at this and are inspired by it is just sign send us a DM on Twitter or Instagram doesn't matter we'll get in touch with you I will get you on board because in the end we're taking the world's biggest problem to the world's high sport together and we'll say AO let's go that's right so AO is advisory opinion let's go it's to the Hague to the peace palace the international court of justice one final thing there does have to be a vote at the UN General Assembly and Vanuatu is leading that so our main goal then as we get in our vacca we're going to be sailing to New York first in September and how will that then move forward will there be a vote yes so this vote will happen somewhere in the upcoming months and this vote will be done and will be held by a simple majority vote so that means that we only need half plus one and yeah so like as I said before it's not a question if but when and we seriously really believe this I'm pretty sure Joshua you saw all the inspiring words and we see a lot of members say it's joining in and actively say that they will vote in favor so we're aiming for an amount of upwards of 80 90 countries members that are voting in favor of this resolution to reseek foreign advisory opinion at the international court and I'm most definitely sure that we'll make it and then the exciting part as we close is then those 15 judges will hear statements yeah there were statements from the from the people and every every because it needs to be known every member state has their own time slot at the court so uh the judges need to hear all of these stories and our plan is during that during that time period is to make sure that every member states puts forward young people and indigenous people at the table at the court because they are the ones which the way it's all about and not the others thank you so much we appreciate you joining us after two grueling days at the global level and it's great to see energy and look forward to continuing as we go forward and one day coming back to celebrate here in the hey after a oh is completed and we go so thank you so much aloha thank you bye bye have a good one thank you 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