 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and I'm really excited to have back on the show My old friend Mike Edison Mike welcome. Oh, man. I'm so glad to be back. Thanks, Bart. Yeah, so You are an author. You're a cool guy. You're a drummer. You do all kinds of really neat stuff and our Primary reason for talking today is because you have some exciting news Your book which people may remember we talked about before sympathy for the drummer why Charlie Watts matters is coming out on a paperback version, which is a little more affordable and It's really exciting. So congratulations about that. Oh, thanks, man And I gotta say it's a really deluxe edition of paperback. It looks very smart I mean backbeat did a fantastic job on it. There are a couple extra pictures in it We got this cool all alternate cover kind of like the original design files In the great rock and roll tradition, you know, like in the stones to a ratio Yeah, go back to the original covers. We found like the cool alternate cover. So it's got kind of fresh vibe And yeah, and you know the hardcover Did so well so many people like you were enthusiastic and embraced it I made so many friends including the guys of the Rolling Stones camp who were vocal and effusively Just really enthusiastic It's great, it's not only just the enthusiasm for Charlie Watts was so many fans But for guys who really dig the drums like you and guys like me who really love the art and science of You know hitting things with wooden sticks And as you said the Stones camp which we got a upfront mention our mutual great friend Don Macaulay who's just hands down one of the nicest people in the world and just Anyone who knows him loves him. He's Charlie Watts. I guess he'd be considered Charlie Watts drum tech, which that's a hell of a job right there But yeah, just such a nice guy. Yeah, Don Don is a mensch with a capital M I mean, absolutely. You know, he's the nicest guy and you never know who you're gonna meet. You know, you know filthy racket I mean honestly the music industry is filled with so many difficult personalities and egos and stuff And you never know who you're gonna meet or who's star-struck and you know, who's kind of a sycophant or dill-tant And you know, I mean you got like the nicest easy-going most easy-going guy with like zero attitude And mostly the kind of people I've met all have that attitude We're just like really eager to be part of this like great community and there are fans You know and being a fan means giving up your ego It's so great. You know, I mean Don works with he doesn't do his work with the Stones I mean he moonwalks with Neil Young and you too and he's got zero attitude. It's just you know, it's fantastic. Yeah, absolutely. So That's just great. And and I want to maybe mention now while people are listening the kind of overarching topic for today is really going to be about I think we labeled it as The right drummer for the right band because I want to talk more about Charlie up front and your phone call with him and all this stuff But just so people know that's what we're going to get to is talking about, you know, the Keith moons and the I think Bonham and Charlie Watts this special era where there was these guys who Who were just irreplaceable really? I mean some of them did get replaced obviously, but it wasn't the same It was the core group And they were the correct people for the band. So we'll we'll get to that discussion But first off you talked to Charlie Watts on the phone. Oh, yeah And uh, and you know and thanks to you know Don for kind of setting setting that up and you know floating some books Out at the Charlie's farm. Uh, it was great. I mean what higher compliment kind of guide that Call him Charlie Watts and told me, you know, thank you for the the lovely book and you know Listen the stones Don't endorse any unauthorized stones product and you know, there's a lot out there The most documented human beings on earth, right? Yeah I mean seriously, uh, you know, they they walk on water and You know, they don't really You know pay attention to things people write about them and to get a call from you know At this reported subject of my book and you know the book is a lot It's about Charlie Watts, of course It's about a lot more than that it's about history of jazz Blues and with the blues the word intersects with rock and roll and country and punk rock and disco It's about you know, it's about the big beat, you know, it's about that thing that makes us crazy it's about you know the kind of revolutions that start behind the drums and Charlie, of course, you know is this great totem and caps that's all of these things You know all the good qualities of what makes uh rock and roll about putting the roll in the rock that really is the premise of the book But yeah, Charlie called me the phone. I got a message from him and this is uh during the lockdown too Which is um, I want to talk about that too because some crazy things happened, but I found myself Uh along with uh free time idle hands and all that Uh, you know what you know, it's good for idle hands wouldn't stick Keeps you busy. Yeah keeps the devil at bay get behind me satan. I'll parallel you right out of here And charlie left a message on my answering machine and he called very early the morning He's in England. I'm in New York City And I started waking up and listening and says hello You don't know me. My name is charlie watts. I'm looking for mike. I wanted to thank him for writing this lovely book And for having charlie parker on your answering machine. Oh boy. That's a good Okay, dude. It's the best because I've had charlie parker on my Outgoing message on my voicemail like since I had my first flip phone Like 20 years ago I just happened to be listening to it while I was creating the you know the outgoing message and I kept it all these years It sounded good and I just never changed it. He's the first person to ever recognize it. It all paid off It was worth it that one moment And it's really like 10 seconds of music not even and it's just like this big piano playlist sounds really good And he's like, oh, yeah charlie parker cosmic rays. Thanks. I'm like seriously, dude Yeah, he's an aficionado. I mean really he oh my god a master He loves music and that is part of the trip to he's very uh, I mean his tastes are very Catholic with a small sea, you know meaning that he loves disco. He gets it. He loves dance music He's not a snob and he likes more avant-garde jazz than any of other films I mean he's talked about embracing scenes of taylor. He loves often jones And he also of course loves all the big band guys and the early jazz guys New Orleans, uh, you know 1920s era jazz and he's just got this huge open heart and open mind towards everything And I called him back. I said uh to my wife. I said, I think So charlie watch this call me. I think I should call him back. His numbers, you know showing up here So I called him back, you know on his landline, of course charlie, right? You know tortoise. He doesn't have a cell phone You know, I mean make sense if you want to get to charlie it's easier to go around his house and try to call him on the phone Um And I said, oh, and I said, hi, this is charlie watson. Yes What was mike? I think you just left me a message and he was just so kind and he's such a gentleman Uh, like I say it's like having someone shake your hand wearing a velvet glove You know, and he said, oh, thank you for the lovely book and we talked for a few minutes about, um some of the uh Old jazz drummers in the early rock world guys if you really enjoyed it and uh, I mean, it's just a very nice thing I'm gonna call but I thought I was being pranked. I mean, I thought major possibility because Not probable but not impossible You know, uh considering the jokers. I know so I kind of had to ask him a secret question Um to get the high sign and he passed so I'm not going to tell you what it is That's between me and charlie, but uh, I was like, oh shit charlie watson And he was so nice and uh finished by inviting me out to come see them if they got back on the road And they they had invited me already and I was kind of all set and then the Tour got cancelled. It really got locked down Oh, man. Well, I just want to note too that that is like the classic there's like a classic movie trope that's like You know the rock star calls and you go. Yeah, whatever shut up Jeff Okay, and then they're like no, it's really me and it's like that's just uh, right that's couldn't be more Like from a movie. I don't know really it's the president call back the white ass and that's for me Oh, that's great What a just good story though about him being a nice guy and reaching out because I don't think he does that to everyone I don't think he does that for anyone. Yeah I mean, it's it's it's crazy and I'm not a star struck guy. I'm a journalist I've worked around a lot, you know, quote-unquote celebrities rock stars and stuff and Uh, I'm not really star struck per se, but gobsmacked. I think would be the word I mean, it was just like wow, my head was definitely spinning like what just happened and damn I should have him on the phone longer. I should have asked him about this or no Am I hearing this right like damn, but uh, he was so super duper nice. And you know what? I've uh, Uh, I met Keith Richards. He bought me a drink one night could not possibly have been nicer after I kind of insulted him Wow Because I bumped into him in the lobby of the Apollo theater up in Harlem during a james brown concert Right. So it was it was a very good place to be bumping into these letters. And I had ducked out, uh, to have a drink And uh, Keith was standing there having a drink During the middle of the concert and I saw him and like there was nobody else around because the show was still going on And he's so I said hi. I kind of sheepishly said, you know, how much, you know, I dig the wrong stones I just seen the movie that uh, Keith had been about Chuck Berry the Chuck Berry Rock-and-roll thing which is a little bumpy You know, uh, and I said, you know, I love you Keith and You know, I just saw your movie and what what the You know f was going on up there You know, I was really what was that all about and um as I live and breathe he said to me Yeah, Chuck's a mother. I love him, but he's impossible to work with. Do you want to drink? Oh god, that's awesome. Uh, so I said yeah Yeah, I said, I'm drinking Jack Daniels. So well that works for me. So I think we sat around drinking Jack Daniels talking about Chuck Berry and James Brown for about 10 minutes until uh, I guess You know, someone came around and recognized him and he said well, no, that was nice But I should probably get out of here now. Yeah, go back and watch the show But you couldn't have been nice, you know, that's awesome. I mean just uh They I think they like those uh those kind of one-on-one interactions that that aren't just being swarmed by crowds So you definitely that was like meant to be you know catching him like that Well, you know what the thing is is is uh, you know, I wasn't like, you know, blowing any sunshine up a skirt either I mean, I just I'm very candid and The book simply for the drummer too. That is You know, we're I don't pull any punches. You know, I mean, it's definitely not a puff piece about the Rolling Stones You know, they've made bad records and we talk about it. You know, it made a lot of missteps and you know, and uh You know, there's mix solo career But um, but it's a 60 year career coming up on I mean what what you can't they can't all be zingers I mean, that's gotta be a little uh, that's so much time. It's not charlie's fault No, that's very true. It's never charlie's fault charlie is always good. In fact, he keeps getting better That's the crazy thing and that's part of the book too is that there's an evolution here Where suddenly the drums start to go louder, you know, and he's not the same drummer You know by the time they get to tattoo you by the time they get to some girls Oh my god, what a what a pivotal shift and the way he was playing and it's so aggressive And of course, he does that thing where he opens the high hat Off the beat and here and there I mean try playing along with it. It's like insane. Yes There's no way to anticipate what he's doing. He's completely he's finding jazz in a place where no jazz normally exists I agree completely and there's something to kind of segue a little bit into like the The the the bigger topic that we're talking about today. There's something about I almost Consider these like, you know, if you're gonna have the mount rush moors, like there's the elvin tony max art Blakey mount rush more over there and then there's without a doubt this rock and roll Mount rush more that is charlie watz keith moon john bonham and ringo star where I know Everyone who's listening I know there's a bunch of other drummers who would probably be up there who might be your favorite drummer But I think we can all agree those guys Are quite possibly the most influential drummers for rock and roll fans Possibly ever and again, there's tons more but those guys especially are when your grandma knows their name, you know They're special But I'll tell you, you know Who's the guy like charles connor who played the original girl can't help it beat with little richard Do you think I'm some hero on this whole thing? I mean that's the intro to rock and roll But you know by zephyr bottom lifted it note for note, you know god god bless them and that's what you know We get to two of these early guys because you say yeah, absolutely charlie watz and ringo and john bonham keith moon But what about uh the guys that they got it from What about role palmer? Why isn't he on that list? Very true, you know and charles connor who's far less lesser than the role palmer Or all phillips who's the drummer for jimmy wreath, you know the blues guy, you know that the stones loved and Man, when I first listened to blues when I got into it It was a direct line from loving the stones to getting to muddy waters and hollow wolf and then of course listen picket and small music but also Jimmy reed or all phillips was his drummer and it's that Impossible shuffle I didn't love it at first because I just thought it was was kind of slow and it was this groove And it didn't really shift all that much and then you start playing along with it and it's impossible It is the impossible shuffle because there's a sort of it breathes There's a sort of beat within the beat and there's a pulse and Charlie's genius part of it and and the stones is to sit down and listen to these records And learn these things and charlie recognizing that this simplicity is actually very sophisticated sure and it's a lot of nuance And how many guys do we both know who can play you, you know, you know parts, you know from 2112 or You know some some spectacular drum suite and how many guys can sit on youtube in their bedrooms? Like no for no renditions of moby dick But trip over themselves trying to play a shuffle or a punk rock beat because somehow It's beneath them or below them or too simple for it to be valid But you know, no one's dancing to that drum solo. I can't tell you that no It's the steve jordan effect where you think on on the surface. It's simple But then as you become more of a mature Drummer you go, holy cow. This guy is just doing something special. Like you said, it's just it's what you're not playing It's it's the space it's the not filling it up Which you know, it's great that everyone can play those crazy rush songs because that's just impressive and it's cool But when you're playing with a band what they call it the money beat for a reason, you know doing the two four That's boom. I mean, that's how you get a gig and it's not just that you have to you have to play well, I mean there's this thing in rock music where It doesn't you're not constantly communicating with the rest of the band unlike in jazz We're hopefully if you're you know, a great jazz drummer of jones art It's roach. You are communicating at all times There's a conversation between the drummer and the rest of the rhythm section and the solists or the ensemble as it is In rock it tends not to be that you lay the beat down and people play on top of it You know, hopefully you can get an apocalyptic bass player But that that sense of conversation that musical conversation doesn't really exist in a lot of rock Yeah, uh, but with charlie when you're listening to it there is there's like, you know, it's I always say Uh, it's about getting R rated again here. Maybe PJ 13, but it's about anticipation Not penetration That's the secret. Yeah. Okay. That's where it lives, you know It's always the moment before the penetration. That's the most exciting part and charlie gets that anticipation Not penetration because after that we're also gonna go, you know, and you know, john bonham too Let's up when even when they're really rocking out. They never sound like they're in a rush Yeah There's a there's a there's a pulse of a pace to it. They never sound it doesn't ever sound to me, you know overbaked They don't sound like they're flying off the handle. They're definitely in the pocket Even when they're cooking bottom knows how to, you know, keep it where it belongs It's anticipation not penetration. And then when you get to that point, boom, you know, you know, it's time Uh, but you know, no one wants to climax at the first note in any situation No, I I remember early on as a drummer kind of learning that with solos And I would you know when I was working as like a drum teacher At I was with sam ash and stuff and I would teach younger kids and I'd say like You got to have somewhere to go and it even it even is like, uh, that's like something that you can take with you in life Though it's like, uh, I was a kid I wanted to buy like this like dw set and I wanted to save up thousands of dollars Which would have taken forever and someone told me like You it's gonna feel better when you get there later as an adult and um, honestly, I've still yet to buy that To be a kid as an adult, but it's like you gotta you gotta have somewhere to get to you can't start like you're saying at 10 and then There's nowhere else to go. You need to start at one go to five come back to one meaning like, you know the level of intensity and And it just it's it's really important which I think those guys, um, which In the topic of right drummer for the right gig What do you think about this like let's maybe play a little game of like how do you think? If you take those four and again, I realize there's tons of other ones, but I'm just talking about those big big huge mega four Um, what if you switched them around? How do you think Charlie Watts would have been in the Beatles? Uh, uh, I'm so glad you asked this question. Um, there are some weird, uh Rock and roll arcana at some weird places where Charlie and wrinkle play on the same record. How about that? Um, um, the london howlin wolf sessions Okay, um, they play and I think bill wyman's on the bass on there Um, and air clapping plays guitar and wrinkle came down to play and he played for a day and then charlie watz came in played the rest of the sessions and wrinkle only made it on the final record I think he's on one or two tracks and charlie is on the rest and oh boy. Oh boy. Can you tell the difference because wrinkle plays this kind of like This it's a funkier kind of beat that he plays It's much much different to charlie watz who's really from the chicago school and really understands This howlin wolf thing in a way that wringo just simply does not and this isn't the criticism of wringo's drumming as a whole His contributions to the Beatles are amazing and the more I listen to it the more amaze land He has that thing too where he's very auto-died act and as a rock and roll drummer I mean wringo in the early days the big open hi hats. They were definitely listening to a lot little richard Really swinging everything just really basically like Punk rock. Yeah, beautiful Uh rock and roll energy the whole bit, but a lot of you know, what I always say Uh bar two is of course in the rock and roll equation Roll is the important part. Okay. The roll is always more important than the rock. Okay little kids can rock You know, you know rock is is is hitting something with a wooden stick without a sense of music to it You know roll is swinging frank sinatra rolls by the holly rolls the rolling stones rolls, right? Called the rolling stones not the rocking stones Right. Um, but you know led zeppelin rolls. Of course, they play heavy rock, but it rolls Uh, they grew up on jazz and big band and they knew that Elvis Presley rolled and uh Carl Perkins and Eddie Cochran, you know and Richard of course to all these people they love Chuck Berry Of course it rolls it swings like crazy And you know one thing is when we talk about the students of the drummer The roll has been systematically beaten out of the music over the years And if you see, you know your average bar band playing johnny be good They're gonna lay down with us like cut straight ahead two or four doesn't really you know boom straight ahead rock of all people If you listen to the record, it swings. It's got a jazz thing. It's all about the dotted eighth note, right? Um, it's it's not like that somewhere over the years. It's shifted And you know, people got the idea that it was easy to play this stuff You know, oh, it's easy to play the blues. So I have to work on it And that's the other thing I want to talk about too is um I realized we got to get back to the interchanging the drummer It's so hard to play stuff when I got back to practicing and I grew up playing the blues And I started playing along again with these jimmy re songs and they're not fast. In fact, they're slow Oh my god, and you know, it's much harder to play slow than it is fast And to keep it together, you know and The shuffle is so hard and I mean I hadn't really worked on it a long time Because I haven't been playing the drums as much as I used to and wow And it's to keep that going to be a really great blues drummer. It's so much harder Honestly, then you know, I'm sure some people are gonna be clutching their pearls, but that'd be a great prog rock drummer It's it's you're you're you're more exposed You're naked playing those drums and if it doesn't swing everyone knows it, you know, you know No one's dancing to to your roto tom solo. It's not happening. You know, yeah And no one's dancing to the guitar solo either But I could say so so then let's look let's flip that and say That for the let's say the prog rock people which I love prog I think it's awesome You can't pluck charlie watz. Maybe you can't let's say you can't pluck ringo out and maybe I know the who isn't prog rock But I'm saying with our example here putting ringo in the who wouldn't quite be the same As uh, if you I think charlie watz and ringo could maybe flip and be okay, and it would be it would be different But it would be in the same arena, but if you take uh, let's say Um ringo and put him in the who or in zeppelin That's like switching a prog guy and a blues guy where it's you know That's where it gets tricky where the prog guy would be like well, they can't do what we do. Um What do you think that would be like to have ringo in the uh in in the who would it slow everything down or Simplify Keith moon's one of these guys and it's not just finding the right drummer It's the drummer finding the right band because you know the sword cuts both ways without the who you know You know Keith moon could have been wandering in the wilderness for his whole life You know as he finds these guys are willing to put up with this spectacular Explosion the symphonic explosion, you know tom-toms and symbols, you know in picturesque disarray, you know Not a conventional sense of tempo. Let's be honest. Yeah, he accelerates constantly You know sometimes the one is Also lost out the wilderness with the who you know and that's part of the thing and you know their formula too is You got Keith moon is playing with the guitar not playing with the bass and it's a it's a weird relationship It's not a conventional rhythm section Keith moon Makes that band I mean as much as the other you know components do you need it lends up when it doesn't work with that john bottom There's no precedent for what he was doing You know the stuff he was doing and of course jimmy page understood it and knew how to record him And it doesn't work without those guys It just doesn't and the Beatles same thing and anybody in the stones will tell you no charlie no stones You think it's making Keith? They'll tell you it's charlie. I think that that's a great point in general of You know if you're listening to this you're probably a drummer where we're all aware of our importance but the drummers You know role in in kind of directing The band because because all of these drummers were talking about minus ringo really I was going to say are the original kind of When the bands were at their biggest these were the drummers because I know I'm sure in most of these bands there's first drummers and then people took over that Most famously the Beatles with Pete Best and all that stuff, but do you think that it's Really really really on the back of the drummer to kind of like help shape The sound of the band Well, I think what these guys have these bands that we're talking about is a sense of collaboration Yeah, which is huge and it's treating the drummer as a musician. Go figure Yeah, for sure. You know, I mean listen, I mean You know, I laugh like when the Beatles were on Ed Sullivan, everybody went out and bought a guitar the next day Right, except for people who were deemed not talented enough were sent to the drum department You know, which is a cry and shame Because again, no one dances to the guitar solo. Uh, and not that every not all records need to be danced to either There's all sorts of ways to play music, but I think this is what we're talking about here It's a sense of collaboration. It's allowing Keith Moon to be Keith Moon. It's allowing John Bonham to be John Bonham It's allowing Ringo, you know, especially when the Beatles stopped making rock and roll records and started making kind of art records You know and things progressed, you know drugs entered the picture and the 60s happened Everything stopped being so much in black and white. Everything was technicolor Uh to let him be Ringo Yeah, because those records don't sound cool with you know with a guy just playing the songs Yeah, exactly You know, and you know how it is if you ever see bar a bar bands that a lot of these guys play by memory They say, oh, yeah, I know how to play. You know, whether it's a Beatles song or a stone song or a Chuck Berry song And they think they've heard it so many times on the radio They think they know it and they haven't really dissected it and it never comes out the same way It just never does and you can't really imitate Ringo or Charlie Watts What would be the point anyway? There's just too much because they're not playing from their hands They're playing from their heart Yeah, you know and you definitely learn to John Bonham parts and everybody should but I don't know how far that gets you unless you've got John Paul joneson should be page like standing on either side of you Yeah, that that's the so The the thing we're talking like the right drummer for the right band That's what you're saying. Here's the key thing of the the right band. It is stars aligning It is like lightning striking to get these four or five guys and girls out of any great band together It's just such like a perfect It's so rare out of all the bands in the world the ones that come to the top that have this Perfect chemistry and and that gets Into the point of let's say John Bonham and Keith moon. It's hard to replace Obviously, they did go back out with Jason Bonham and Ish they did a couple shows with Jason. Yes, exactly. I don't mean I don't mean like the band continued the who? Yeah gave it a go with Kenny jones, and it was it was awful frankly I mean he was the wrong guy for the job. It was good on paper You know they knew him Kenny jones is a wonderful drummer in the faces and small faces terrific But he was not the right drummer for that job the second he showed up. They should have thrown away his hi-hats That's not how this band works By the time they found sack starkey that they got it because that understood the implications of what Keith moon was doing without Having to play exactly like Keith moon. He knew what it kicked the guitar players ass He knew was okay to speed up. He knew was okay to play with my bank. He really got it, you know I know they had a couple other guys sitting in honestly. I don't think anyone else got it before sack Yeah, you know and that's just I mean it's ring goes son. So there's something special Well, yeah, he's got real providence, you know providence You know when he comes to it, but he was ability to free himself within you know Confines or the lack of confines of the who's music to to really really let go and when I got to see him play with The who the first time I walked away feeling like I'd really see no who concert Yeah, that's so you're reading my mind right now by by thinking so so when I In 2019 saw the stones and hopefully again on the 60th Anniversary see the stones again I feel like I am seeing the rolling stones. Obviously it'd be awesome if it was the 60s or 70s But there's something about that the circle hasn't been broken. Oh my god They are and they are the last connection the last great big blue spark of electricity That goes straight back to the beginnings of rock and roll that are still playing if you're looking at that Don't forget. They learned literally sitting at the feet of howlin wolf. Okay. They were on the road with little richard They were on they knew howlin wolf. They were hanging out with buddy waters They used to sit at the Apollo theater watching, you know, James Brown If you imagine James Brown playing seven shows the Apollo a day, right? Right like seven shows a day starting the afternoon and just go and watch they were there and they lived through it all I mean, you know, I mean the sex of the drugs, but never mind that they lived through disco and survived You know, you know and you know and they came out with you know some girls and fought back You know against you know the the blight of punk rock, but they did it on their terms And and they blazed and they evolved and when you see them They are the last true connection like uninterrupted going all the way back to that and It feels even though, you know, the band is playing now is playing at much more relaxed tempo They don't have to prove that the greatest rock world band in the world like they did in 1969 And you know the tour after that 1972, which is probably well, I would say that was the height except for 1978 Which was just like mind-blowing every time I look at that or listen to the some girls live tour It's incredible. I mean the tempos are just I mean, they're just blazing And and and the intuition and the feeling and the vibe and the the sense of we're really out to like, you know Conquer the world. I mean they got their mojo back and I think they were adrift for a moment there, you know 1975 You know, it was sort of becoming an arena band and getting away from You know, I like the sweat and blood and guts and the whole thing but they you know But it was came time to fight back against the sex pistols through our bones and people calling them old men folks, they were like 38 at the time They they saw now They came, you know out of the gate loaded for bear And it's pretty incredible, but here's the thing too. I want to get back to I know we're popping around here But charlie's drums So started getting louder Tattoo you they're mixed so loud, right the snare drum is just like it's over modulated. It's not really trashy It's great, you know, I mean they got this terrific sound by mic and snare drum and running it out to you know A bathroom and re-miking it coming out of an amplifier You know, and it sounds terrific. It's so loud. It's really aggressive and all of a sudden I think they realized that charlie is as much a signature You know of the band As as you know, Keith and mickar. Yeah, everyone knows you hear That little off kilter things that charlie watched us. Oh, yeah, that's stones. Yeah, which is nearly impossible to do for a drummer Yeah, but they do. I mean him and and it's again him and uh charlie and ringo and and all of the ones we're talking about But like there's something just that like you can tell in a second Which to be able to get that signature sound out of just hitting things is And style that thing, you know, uh, I listen to uh, some of the stuff with kenny aronoff for a while who did the there are a couple little transcriptions in the book and kenny helped me out with this and uh He's just like, you know, it's it's crazy because it's only it's it's two bars Right eight beats and he speeds up and there are accents in places I um, you know, kenny's like this masterful charter of things. You know, he obsessively charts everything and um, We should plug kenny's book to uh sex drums and rock and roll because it's quite excellent Um, and that's what a guy's got to work ethic like, you know, it's unbelievable Oh my god, yeah But listening with kenny he says to me he says, you know, you know, no one would ever allow me to play the drums like this You know, it would be considered wrong to speed up on a you know, two bar intro But he's trying to he's either trying to get ahead of Keith or trying to catch up with Keith That's the example of like of kenny is is uh, I mean, he's obviously been in a lot of bands, but he's got So many gold records. It's unbelievable, but he's usually hired on to play whereas with charlie it's like He has some weight to say Like no, I am a member of the band. There is no band without me. I can do what I want I am I am going to write my parts and they also I really think they with a lot of these these classic Rock bands like we're talking about they helped define the sound together. So they're like Maybe it's just it's there. There's no replacing them. You know, not gonna replace kenny erinoff, but there's yeah No, no, but it's different because this is a band situation. It's a collaboration. Yeah, and whether it's, you know, You know, silly dr or john fogarty or or whoever that kenny's playing with I mean, can he's great because he understands he's there to support the band to support the song You know, it's about putting the music over and ultimately your responsibilities to the audience Yeah, you know He's a genius like that who gets that but you know with charlie revering off baby into art territory I like, you know, people always told me a whole life artist. Nice mic, but someone's got to pay for it But that's it, you know, char, you know, I mean, I mean, when kenny said that I need to say that He was saying with the greatest admiration. You know, you know, you said, yeah, I mean, this is crazy. He's speeding up You know, uh, I just haven't even started You know, which is which is another myth, by the way, the charlie watz plays like a metronome Who's this perfect timekeeper and sure he can be I mean, he can play with a click track all day long But that's not the point. It's not supposed to be like that. You know Only to offer the territory one more time Uh, I'm gonna dial down a little bit for all the kids in the audience But you don't want to make love with someone who does it like a metronome Yeah, right. So why would you want a drummer who plays like one? That's okay. The idea is sometimes you gotta There's got to be a little push and ball Right. Sometimes you can push it through the choruses. You put a little zork behind the guitar solo And sometimes you come out, you know, a little more relaxed. I mean, there isn't a single stone song I guarantee you, you know, that's ends at the same tempo it begins No, and there's certain things like like I always think of like time is on my side where like there's a tambourine hitting and a snare And it's supposed to be at the same time and it's Toilet flanges very rarely on the same. It's like Like it's it's it's always a little off But it's it's that feeling and I think even you know, what two years ago Which seems like insane that it's been that long in 2019 seeing the stones I felt like it was a rock band a four piece Which I think it you know five six people are on stage whatever but the core guys felt just like a garage band in the best possible way like a rock blues band who's just kind of having fun and um That has that push and pull It absolutely does the tempos shift and a one great example. Not the stones, but I feel it's the cashmere You know it's up when it slows down during the the choruses. That's so hard to do, but it feels right You know, it's you know, it gets a little faster and it pulls back a little faster It pulls back, you know, and then you can compare this with you know any pop hit You know like contemporary pop music and they're all like, you know done in the box They're all like, you know, they do go They are on a clicker on the grid It's very non-organic. Yeah cashmere is a great example I was listening to it the other day on the radio and It's just like sometimes you just like I've heard this a thousand times I'm gonna change it, but it was one of those times where it's just like that Like where he's just playing it just that simple beat with the guitar kind of you know off That that thing that's going on there just makes you bob your head and then every once in a while He hits a symbol and it's just like oh my god. It's literally epic And what I would always say is and here's some music theory for you. Okay. It's a very very complex music theory So everybody get out to the pens and papers Led Zeppelin is the band that when you're listening to really loud when you're stoned You think the phone is ringing most when it's really not And that's because of those checking in symbols It's like oh shit. I hear the phone. Oh, no. No, it's just jump on. Well, I got that Oh, this is not not fun. Yeah And that's a great thing too because you know, I mean big symbols like that are something that you generally You had most situations and yet he's made it this thing. Yeah, absolutely get having your own sound This episode is brought to you by dream symbols dream symbols is launching the tasting tour 2021 There's going to be tons of cool symbols members of the dream team on site and the recycling program will be in effect All day at these various awesome music stores around the country August 21st, they're going to be at in-stuff music in pittsburgh, pennsylvania september 4th They'll be at everything musical in columbus, georgia september 11th and 12th They'll be at epic percussion in williamsport, pennsylvania october 2nd They'll be at forks drum closet in nashville october 9th melody music in bloomington, indiana october 16th rhythm traders at portland, orgon And november 6th. They'll be at rup strums in denver colorado. So go out and check it out if dream will be in your town As you're joking around about music theory though, I would love to jump over a little bit And talk about you because earlier on you mentioned kind of having all this free time and what you're going to do with it and Uh, I should mention too. I said that you've been on another episode where we talked about this But you gave a very good description there People can listen to that as well about charlie and about your own background and all this stuff So, I mean you've played you're a guitarist. You're a singer. You've done all this really cool stuff But during lockdown, you've really focused yourself to be a better drummer, which as an existing You know grown man drummer. Sometimes it's hard to like Go back and work on stuff. So tell us about that. What what got you back into relearning and and bettering yourself kind of rudimentally let's say rediscovering, you know, I just like came up on the drums the drums are my first instrument and um I play the drums all over the world and a couple different punk rock bands The wrong chance for one we played all over bass and uh, and now I'm working as a singer and it's going over good In fact, I'm on my way to spain now things are open to sing with uh, the band called guadalupe plata We'll be in marcelona in Madrid and points in between in spain. I have a new record out. It's called The devil can't do you no harm In fact, I might get us some on all streaming services, but I'm saying it. Yeah, fortunately I have as great a drummers that I've ever played with in my life Uh, who understands that being playing slow is more subversive than playing fast Uh, and we've kind of put a little that punk rock stuff behind us to get a little deeper into the thing because the groove is the thing But after writing this book and this experience of this deep dive and try lots and the rhythm and drums And I love the drums like everybody that's listening to show I assume and like like you do Where I do love the drums. That's who I am. That's where I started. That's where I shall always return I have the first time in my life. We just moved to a house I have my drums set up because living in new york city a least friendly place for drummers on earth You can't set your drums up. You know in the house, but now I haven't set up my so I love wood super classic silver sparkle set That every kid in the world wanted 1969 and Living the dream having the drums set up in my house. Um I didn't have that uh, we're during the pandemic though What I did have was a practice pad and a metronome, which I never even owned a metronome in my life I was self-taught and I said, you know, I want to get back to basics. I want to hit the pad. I'm looking a lot of stuff Uh, I got a metronome And uh, I was self-taught, but I had a couple guys show me a few rudiments I knew a few things and mostly got good playing with records and then playing in bands that somehow We got fortunate enough to go on tour and stuff and I You know play the drums seven nights a week for years and years, but not in a long time Okay, you find out pretty fast when you put the metronome on and you start playing paradiddles just how much it suck Yeah, um, I know, you know, to me the greatest example of paradiddle playing will always be uh, Peggy Sue bloody Holly song with jerry allison. I know Charlie Watts is a big fan just streaming paradiddles I think it's about 140 bpm It's just streaming paradiddles and it swings and it's groovy and it's like nearly superhuman play that Wow, okay. So let's set that as a target. Wow. I can't even touch that when I'm starting So, you know, I'm getting there, but no one also told me that you could invert a paradiddle You play a backwards paradiddle, you know I had no idea what the permutations of the six-stroke roll were because I didn't really learn properly. So I'm going through this thing and I'm learning big better my doubles should be better my paradiddles anymore even I'm flipping some accents around and I'm starting to look at, you know, and it was always fun to look at buddy rich But I always kind of think it's kind of a parlor trick to be honest with you because once you could do that Where do you go with that? What do you do with it? But also musically, where does it fit into anything once you've seen him play his five-inch drum solo Unless you're a super big band fan and I like big bands, but where are you gonna go? Well, I should say too when I pause this in the book, I only think there were a couple good drum solos in the history of the sport You know in the history of it I don't I'll put moby dick up there for obvious reasons and sing sing sing Which really furthers the song and the greatest drum solo of all time. Here it is. Wait for it It's got to be wiped out by the safaris, right? Very good. Yeah, those are good. Those are three very good ones Only I don't take five but you're all unbelievable. Yes, right and one great thing about take five And this is so great is that while he's playing that That that solo that's spaced out over you know the five pulse The piano is still vamping. Yeah So It's it's a drum solo in the sense that the band doesn't stop when the guitar solo comes So why should the band stop when the drum solo comes? Yeah, and how come it took Dave grubeck and joe morillo to figure that out and no one's done it since really Um, not like that. I mean that was a pop hit. I was jazzed Pop crossover in but wipe out. It's the only drum solo that everyone plays in the countertop Yeah, yeah, exactly children. I mean two year olds know that song like I can I can attest to that that That is just the most requested little kids song in the world But also everyone loves seeing the videos of 90 year old grandma playing wipe out. It's just it's it's capture. It's it's uh There's just something about it. It's uh iconic. I never learned to play it properly. I've been thinking it all these years So, you know, but I went back and there's a great video of the ventures doing it Even though they didn't have the original version of it, but the ventures doing it. I think of like 1969 or so maybe later Um, it's just absolutely, you know blazing and so I went back and tried to learn these things and you know Then you get to the place that so what am I going to do with all this great technique that I've just Accomplished where does it even fit into the world? And this goes back to the premise of the book and it's the beats the thing It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing Nobody's harrowing you to play a drum solo for 40 minutes, you know You know and and by the way then charlie watz it's not that he's not good enough to play drum solos He's he's good enough that he doesn't have to yeah, that's an interesting point. I've in my You know Years now of of finding these drum solo videos. They're really of course I go charlie watz drum solo charlie watz drummer Charlie watz solo and I try and find something there really isn't one and uh He's not a solo Drummer like a drum solo guy I think jazz wise maybe he could he would fit more into that category of some kind of like jazzy solos with his side project but um That's interesting. You don't and and the same with ringo, which there obviously a lot of parallels between the two But you don't hear those guys a couple nice breaks that ringo takes but no extended solo But also, you know for all buddy riches prowess don't whatever leaves the show hubbing his drum solo Yeah, good point, you know And you know pure I mean it's unbelievable, but it seems to me even when you know everybody leaves the stage and does this great thing and it's amazing But where does it do to really further a song or make people dance which may not be the point of rush But in the context of rock and roll roll being the operative word here and it doesn't really fit sing sing sing Absolutely wipe out absolutely. Um And even you know time and there are a few others. I mean, you know, I mean, you know Even art Blakey who I really admire the comedy drum solos and listen to max roach, uh, you know and a lot of uh, um What we did just taken away from a max roach tune, you know, it's great, but It's not really about the solos. I mean no one ever called me up as I come over my house Come come to my bar and play a solo drum shot. No Well, I in my in my mind for a while. I've always equated it to like Like a comedian who is a stand-up comedian who can be by themselves versus a Actor who is very very funny in a movie or on a sitcom where they need What's going on around them to be great? But you might not be able to pluck them out and put them alone on a stage And have them kill for 25 or 30 minutes or an hour where that's the drum solo versus the band drummer Kind of you know mentality I want this to be empowering for drummers too that a band is only as good as the drummer You know, and you can always get by and by the way, I think about the right drummer for the right band A late band for the right drummer We've all been in the bands where there's three guys and then the other person you could find who also let a bass And listen to it Yeah, you know or like we got three guys. Oh, I know this guy plays sax. He'll come by and do it But yeah, he was never really one of the guys You know, it always happens that way when you find four people that have that like fraternity, you know, you know Totally that that that vibration together when you're really communicating telepathically, you don't want to screw that up No, no, and it's funny because the stones refer to like Ronnie wood is like the newest member when he's been in the band for 45 years or whatever Right and he got it right away. You know, so to say that not everybody's interchangeable I mean, obviously Brian was replaceable in fact He was holding the back and partly because he was a bit of a drug casualty But also because I don't think he had the vision to go where they wanted to go McTaylor is great. But he was the guy. I mean, honestly, he's that guy He was the guy they got because he was like signing like a gaudy free agent You know, he was a designated hitter was gonna hit, you know, 30 home runs and you know, maybe bad for average He'll come up basis for you and they help you win the championship. He's gonna be gone two seasons Yeah Like, you know, the power forward is going to score gold help you win the cup But he was never really part of the core organization and that was McTaylor You know for all this talk about oh, he was too virtual. So those records were great I don't know who told him it was a good idea to quit the welding stones But ryan walked in and they got along so well right off the bat. You know, there was a real there's magic there I mean, it's a real meeting of the minds. It's nice when you can't tell where Keith ends and ryan begins Yeah, that's a very special relationship Now jumping back here. I love it. I like all the stones just kind of because you know The whole key of this and just a reminder to everyone that you know Mike here is obviously the author of sympathy for the drummer why charlie watts matters So if you kind of forgot that's why we're peppering in, you know, the great stones discussion But I'd love to ask too. So You've rediscovered your love of like, you know, really learning and you're pushing yourself forward with rudimental drumming So the key things which I think you you are going to take away from all of that and just from talking to you is You're not going to let it mess up your your role You know, I mean not your role, but like your rock and roll that swing being rudimental, which I know that That's something interesting is you don't want to be too On the grid click. So how how are how do you think you're going to take your new Love of studying, you know rudimental things, but then put it into your own style of drumming Take the question because I think about it because I would like to be Be playing the drums in the band again right now. I'm singing and I'm loving it. Yeah, I can't you know It's I can't believe this is happening. I'm so fortunate to be playing the guitar You know, someone's allowing me to do You know, and then it's going over, you know, really well, it's working Um, also years and years to get there with the the singing, you know, um, well the drums I like bands that are drums forward, you know, there's so many like, uh, You know mod jazz bands acid jazz bands soul jazz bands in the 60s and you know, the acid jazz is kind of version of what they got copped later on Where the drums are very forward versus swinging very powerful, but it's really core to the group I think a drummer like band could be fantastic But it is a band at the end of the day It's You know, that's kind of where it is. It's not a drummer and three monkeys at stage. It's it's musicians playing playing together I I love it when the drums are featured. I love a lot of the great little things that art licky does at the beginning of a song You know, he sort of like brings it in with You know, you know some flamboyance and some flair and some riffs and max roach does the same thing Uh, I mean certainly john bottom was I mean, it's a very drum forward band for sure. Yeah Yeah, which also comes through in the recording process to just say like, you know, like you said charlie got louder with these guys It's like, you know, this drums start to get more turned up the snares more Oh my god, those last records they put out for all of their flaws I mean it's I say Stones records as you know complete pieces of work the drums are like that bigger bang I guess was the last studio record, uh, the first song Boy, it just sounds like You know like like an army invading. It's so freaking loud. It's like I think they realize that people It like it's the semiotics of the stones Here's the sign and signifier that you put your brain and you're together in your brain You say, holy shit, that is the rolling stones and then the guitar comes in right on top of it And it's like he's not really playing the drums any more charlie. He's kind of playing the band Yeah, you know in a way Has become much bigger than that as a component part of Whole sound like bonham did like he's moon did you're like ringo star did uh And you know that certainly certain progressive drummers have done it and elvin jones, of course is one of the great examples, you know, uh Could not there's no coltrane quartet without elvin jones. It's just doesn't it's not the same thing Not that john john culture didn't make records with other drummers, but that was it I don't think anyone's gonna argue with it that band right there was the band Yeah, um for sure You know, uh, I gotta believe in the drums. Like I said, no one dances to the guitar solo Now it's you gotta it all works together. Um, which you know, maybe you Working now as a guitarist and singer but having that background as a drummer and and a literally right now a practicing drummer Which I mean, I've obviously you're a great drummer, but it's it's you can always get better and work on things more and I learned that by uh I've kind of been on a pause but taking lessons with Barry james who was george loren stones Um last living student. Well, that's that's going right back to like stick control. Yeah so, uh working on stick control with a guy who learned from the man who wrote stick control it was like It's just fun to do but but you know, man practice is one of those things where um I guess it's like working out. I say that as a person who virtually never works out Like you you once you start doing it you kind of have to like in for me in the back of my mind I have this like oh man, I don't want to miss a day of practicing because It's it's a slippery slope and and you lose it quick You lose it quick and I've lost it in the last month or two where I need to just get a pad out and start practicing more And I still play obviously, but but I'm talking about a pad. Yeah, uh Yeah, I I check out one of those uh, remote silence stroke heads on a snare drum right now And I'm really digging that as a use of that's a pad because I get the rim shot, you know And it's um, yeah, it's kind of I'm kind of right now That's what the other two I went on this quest to find the perfect drum stick And I just just played with two bees for the first time in my life. It's heavy drumsticks I just fell in love with them. They're really addictive. I guess it's unbelievable sound out of the drums Probably not sustainable for like, you know, 50 minutes of like hard rock drumming. It's too big But they feel great and then you know when I go back to my normal five bees it's like I'm flying around But that was part of it. Yeah, all this practice, you know, I mean there are things like am I ever going to learn to play Moby Dick like the record or any of the various live versions not exactly But I don't really I don't have to I'm getting some of the component parts and some of the signature parts of it And I'm deconstructing it and there are so many object lessons within Moby Dick You know exactly um that it's really helping everything else out like this, you know There's so much good. I like you know the jungle drums and the parts got back to road parts got from jacuba and uh, this kind of thing he does where You know your right hand is sort of tied to your left foot and vice versa Right, the right hand is not tied to the hi-hat not the instrument where sing sing sing. It's every example one Moby dick is I mean if for all you guys out there and girls who've been, you know, listening to this You know I'm talking about but that once you get that going and you can move around You could sort of use that palette and start, you know throwing your own colors on it Get out your own paint set And so that's fantastic. I think that's where i'm going with a lot of things I can It's not never been my thing to be able to play somebody else's part perfectly, but only like I love mitch Mitchell too You know, I mean there's another drummer without him. We're the jenny hendrix experience. He was the best drummer at the time For jenny hendrix who to me is just like so beyond Every other like musician or for walking the face of the earth with the exception of maybe john cauldron I mean just advancing the art so much forward and You know here we'll get us in trouble. I think he'll see the band in gypsies And it's like those guys couldn't play but they're not in the same league as the experience It's much more flowing. It's much more fluid. It's much more in a conversation with the guitar Maybe that wasn't the board to band in gypsies. Maybe it was supposed to be that deep groove they lay into You know, but I listen to voodoo child with mitch Mitchell on it Which is also pretty long it's 12 or 14 minutes or whatever and the whole thing just swings and swings and swings And it's filled with surprises and musicality Yeah, well, there's a thousand different styles of drumming and that's the cool thing is that there's each Each one can be a case study and and even you saying mitch Mitchell It just made me think like That's where it's a it's dangerous to do what I did where I say, you know Those big four that I named because then there's like ginger baker. There's all these favorites of everyone where No one really liked we all kind of look at them that no one really likes the you know the top 100 drummers because it's like Who who have they forgotten now? Well, those let's sort of integrate arguments and that's what you know sells magazines or gets clicks on the internet Uh, you know, that's cool. I mean, but I still get mitch Mitchell like that little fill a little way that It's like well I'm never probably gonna play a little wing in a band ever in my life. No, but that little bit is so beautiful Yeah, there's a bit in if six four nine or six six nine the thing there of like hit starting the fill on a tom tom and that kind of It's very melodic. That's something that can be applied to so much more. Yeah, absolutely I don't follow recipes either. I cook all the time and I read recipes I cook books, you know, and my wife said wait, we go through something I think we just cherry picked the parts we want and just throw the thing away and just make stuff See, that's a good that's a very interesting, uh, uh analogy there because like I am I'm like you I think you can there's so many ways to go about it Like I'm like you with the drumming where I might not list I might not learn Like dead nuts every single part to a cover song I would be doing with a band and I have huge respect for people who do but I if I cook Like it's like two two tablespoons of olive oil I'm measuring two tablespoons of olive oil and my wife though is just splashing it in and like three So there's there's different but she ends up setting off the smoke alarm and the food is black And I'm like making it exactly the way I didn't think the story was gonna end like that I thought I thought she was gonna I thought she was gonna win this one Hopefully she doesn't listen to this. I'm sure Tables for olive oil like what are you kidding me? It's like you know, which olive oil goes Anything and amount I said two tablespoons Mike Mix cocktails the same way sometimes I counter coming out of the poor I do it by sight do it by field do it by vibe you start with good ingredients That's the most important thing. Yeah, right same thing with the drops You start with good ingredients good some sound principles And you know are the spectrum of things that will get you further in life talent technique taste What what do you think really is the one that's going to get you the get you the furthest, you know I'm gonna let you guys talk about that amongst yourselves. Yeah, okay All chops of the world I can replace the fact that you got lousy taste. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, okay And then knowing when you hear it, you know, the thing is You know, I hear as a writer people I say, oh, if you're a writer, you got to write all the time Oh, if you're a drummer, you got to play the drums all the time But actually you got to listen to the drums all the time You know if you're a writer you got to read all the time And when your stuff starts sounding like the stuff you admire, you know, you're getting close to the goal Yeah, absolutely But you got to be yourself everyone knows that but you can definitely take your influences And that's why you made it to continue with the cooking thing That's why you may read a cookbook get the idea look at the picture go. Okay. I can do that a little bit better There's a bit about better. I mean, that's the whole thing too Who's the greatest drummer you're asking the wrong question. Yes I mean not not you know, not you specifically Who's your favorite drummer? The drum solos that you put up on the drum history podcast on the instagram I watch them all I watch every single drum solo you put up every day and like like no I get all gooey and melty when I when I watch them. I love the brazilian guy with the singer that you're up to Oh, it's like incredible because that's just like that's a real conversation. It's You know, it's not a rock thing. Yeah, because there's life beyond rock and rock for that matter Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. That's beyond rock and roll. That's that's a different that's and I think we can all Broaden our horizons and that's what I try to do is bring those. Um, oh my god There's so many ways to play music. I was teaching kids the other thing I was doing during the pandemic was teaching kids to play music Like non-instrument specific lessons. I rule number one is don't be a snob Yeah, no one likes that Don't like say, oh, you know, I don't like opera really, you know, it's lost in 500 years is a reason for it I get it. You don't have to like everything but you know opera sucks. I mean listen to it decide You know, I'm not a big opera fan a big classical music fan, but I personally don't like a lot of the Highly trained voices doesn't resonate with me But yeah, I guess I go see the magic food every once in a while because it's pretty awesome, you know Yeah, and that performer has put in more hours than probably You know, yeah, then all of us combined Yeah, it took them 10 hours just to get good never mind the part and and you know, that's the other thing too is like the distance between like To get good takes a very long time But the difference between good and very good is much shorter But the difference between very good and truly excellent is this massive again Yeah, absolutely Man, well, this is just such a fun conversation about just like like what I want to do on the show more is as I I kind of fall into the and I think people like it the you know, this is the topic This is what we're going to talk about. This is the history of this we do it boom But I want to try and do more episodes like this where I maybe talk to collectors And I talk to people who were drummers because I sort of had an a version to having on Drummers to interview famous drummers because there's so many great podcasts who do that. There's there's other ones So I thought hey, I'm going to be different. I'm going to do the history stuff But I do plan on doing that. So this falls into a really cool kind of Just I appreciate it and my book. I mean simply for the drummer I mean, yeah, it's charlie watson on the cover, but it really is about the history of drums It is about the history of rock and roll drumming and I think that's why I got such an enthusiastic response It's partly because I didn't pull punches when talking about, you know, the foibles of classic rock drumming and and the stones and You know, everybody's human. I didn't pull punches But also I talk about like, you know Everything that's adjacent to it, you know, like how much jazz is there really in black Sabbath a lot? You know, I mean, it's like let's think about it Well, these guys were growing up. They didn't have the benefit of Led Zeppelin. There are contemporaries They had the benefit of the Betty Goodman orchestra and Jean Grupa and Louis Belson, you know And that's what you hear when you hear Bill Ward in the first black Sabbath record to read those the wizard warpings Like, hey, this guy's been listening to big bands. Yeah, it's swinging. I love the wizard. I used to play that Oh god, I still play it all the time. I'm still trying to master it. Yeah, exactly now. Um, everyone should for the month of august 2021 keep an eye on my instagram drum history underscore podcast Mike is going to do something very cool And uh, we're going to do a giveaway and we're going to kind of do it through drum history where He's going to give away not just one book. I mean, you're going to give away a handful of books Yeah, let's see how many I can squeeze out of my publisher, but uh, let's uh, spread the word spread the gospel for good news Yeah, exactly. So so keep an eye on the instagram And we'll post a video of mike and there'll be instructions on what to do And uh, how to get entered and then michael choose the winner and uh, get some books out there and it's it's People someone's got to win it might as well be you. Um Mike this has been awesome So everyone listening per usual mike is going to hang out and we're going to do a little patreon bonus episode and um, We kind of have this plan of uh Doing something kind of fun a little different than the main episode I'm going to ask mike the question of what makes a virtuoso and remember that mike has A vast history and knowledge just writing about music and just knowing all these things It might not be doesn't have to be just 100 drum related. We're talking in general. What makes a virtuoso, which I think can be kind of uh subjective so if you want to hear that little bonus Go to drumhistorypodcast.com Click the patreon link and join up which a lot of people have been doing. I'm really happy I'm at about 30 people on patreon, which helps, you know Just make this possible to keep doing and justify Doing it on that note mike. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here and to do the bonus episode and I'm excited For you just to be getting your book out there even more and um, it's just exciting stuff Oh man, it was a gas gas gas. Thank you very much. I mean, uh, yeah birds of a feather Yeah, exactly Nothing like uh hitting things with wooden sticks to liberate one soul Cool. Thanks mike If you like this podcast find me on social media at drumhistory and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about the future Until next time keep on learning