 Today, we're going to talk about Adam Montgomery. He was just convicted for murdering his five-year-old daughter And we're gonna show you we're gonna break down the body language that shows you why the detectives knew they had the right guy Greg wants to tell us about the videos we're gonna watch. Yeah, quite simply. It's that he's been hauled in with charges of second-degree Assault this is before they knew anything else and they're doing kind of an investigating probing interrogation. You'll really enjoy this one You understand what the charges are right second-degree assault, right? Yeah. Okay. There's also an endangering the welfare of charge Okay, and Interference with custody Okay, so how did I get a few custody? So that paperwork that we served you the other day remember that okay when they're in the alleyway remember outside of Long Lake out. Yeah There's paperwork you have to comply with You understand that right? We had that conversation. Did we know right? So that's that's what that's all about second-degree assault charge. What is this referring to? That's what we want to talk to you about explain to me. What if I'm being charged with it? What the hell are you charged with? Well, your daughter had some injuries But that you know about when you live on Killford Street. No, I do not No, you were there. I wasn't right. What are you referring to? I'm referring to her having some good marks What are you referring to? Marks that were left on her by you Absolutely. I had nothing else to say Chase, what do you got? So let's let's talk about this denial here During this there's a postural retreat. So this is often a sign of discomfort or unease when somebody retreats or pulls back physically it can really indicate they're trying to create some distance between either them and another person and it could be because they're feeling threatened and It's potentially a sign of deception but this might be trying to distance themselves from the lie that they're telling then we see abdominal covering there and this is a Primal protective behavior that can indicate vulnerability or fear and when somebody covers their abdomen They're unconsciously trying to protect these vital organs underneath our soft belly And in the context of deception this could mean they're feeling threatened because they're lying or they're afraid of being found out There's leaning forward to kind of lower the rib cage down toward the pelvis Which increases the number of organs that are protected by that bony rib cage structure So we're seeing that and lastly we see him protecting his wrists and we know That fear causes an unconscious reaction in our bodies to protect arteries and organs arteries and organs so we're seeing that at a pretty high level here and there's no surprise some anger and No denial. There's no real denial. Just absolutely not. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I just add two things to that because you absolutely spot on there Of course Chase is that not only is he covering his wrist there, but he also covers his elbow Underneath as well. So he's managed to hide that as well. So so it just it's just adding to what you're saying there Look, there are no absolutes, but when you get this convergence this This cluster of signals it becomes more and more lightly that there's more and more stress going on there What's that stress about? Well, it could be could be anything at this point, but it's worth paying attention to Absolutely not. He says look, there are no absolutes, but we tend to find this idea of absolutely not will show up a lot He also says no, I did not it's not contracted There so and then given the rest of his speech which gets very contracted It's interesting when it comes to this denial we get no, I did not absolutely not a whole body goes back Lunges forward again lots of protection of lots of stuff, you know watch it again It's out of the baseline that we saw around this, but it's just the first video So anything could happen from here on in Greg. What do you got on this one? Yeah, I think it's really interesting because he does two delaying techniques to get to that point to when they first of all There's no emotion whatsoever about this little girl this five-year-old child who is missing for two years now number one number two There's no where is she we always say if it's your child would be like where is she stop bugging me unless find her none of that He's dismissive of a secondary degree assault charge first and brushes it aside He brushes off also child endangerment because he's trying to avoid those until he's forced back into it Sometimes when you're in interrogation, this is a common practice for a person if they can assault the thing They think they're prepared for then they can defend that and they can feel like they're standing on a some kind of a platform This is going to be a bunch of sticks a bunch of straws until one breaks the camel's back And we're gonna see that here as we go through this after he brushes those off Then he's like what do you got when they're saying that? They know one other thing that you guys don't see here Is he had begged for a cigarette that told him he couldn't have any and then they brought cigarettes to him He's tweaky is all hell I think he's druggy even still and so you get all that tweaking that he's doing and all that kind of stuff You have to pay attention to How did I interfere with custody he chooses that to stand on instead of the assault charges in that Then you can watch because this officer starting to pay attention And you see him adapting with his feet underneath You see that tweaking of the lips again I think that's drugs in this guy and then chase the thing you're talking about boom retreat pushes back No, I do not baseline deviation clusters huge that retreat. There's an absolutely not I have nothing else to say But he doesn't say I want a lawyer so they can keep talking his arms suddenly cross his chains down in his body's curled All those things are there now. What's happened here if you're an interrogator He's just telegraphed what he's afraid of welcome to the dance now I'm gonna walk him down until I got it right where I want him and we're gonna talk about those very specific things Scott, what do you got? All right, you guys covered a lot But we're looking at a guy who is has no control over what's going on whatsoever So he tries to Gain some control do something that makes him feel like excuse me that he's in control of something That's what the cigarette is for because he has to have something to fiddle with and move around He can light it and flick ashes and do all that stuff so that gives him a little bit of a feeling of control Every movement we see with him is stiff It's uncomfortable and then we don't see any illustrators whatsoever his arms are below the table And so that and later on we're gonna see this and it's gonna get really interesting really really fascinating I think around the at the last video we'll talk about that then of course But he's this shows his confidence still is really low because he's doing this and he's backing up a little bit I won't cover in detail the things you guys talked about and then like Like what you're saying markets a classic cluster of those cues that let us know this is probably Deception here. That's why these guys start going a little bit tighter and a little bit harder And I'm sure it started from the very beginning from watching this will know That they know this guy did it so and it's a great tactic they take approaching him For the most part one of those tape replays Again You understand with the charges are a second result, right? Yeah. Okay. There's also an endangering the welfare of charge Okay, and Interference with custody So how did I get a few custody? So that paperwork that we served you the other day remember that okay when they're in the alleyway remember outside of Yeah There's paperwork you have to comply with You understand that right we had that conversation did we know right So that's that's what that's all about like a second year's college charge. What is this referring to? That's what we want to talk to you about explain to me what if I may in charge with it Well, your daughter had some injuries But that you know about when you live on Killford Street, no, I do not What are you referring to? Well, you were there. I wasn't right. What are you referring to? I'm referring to her having some good marks What are you referring to? Marks that were left on her by you Absolutely. No, I have nothing else to say They got We talked about how we were worried about your daughter that area. Okay, you remember that conversation I don't know that conversation, but right off the rep with the way you approach in the conversation You guys are completely out of line so me. Yeah, do I in the time you've known me Well, what you just said to me you guys are completely out of line. Okay, but so explain to me How am I I have nothing to explain? Okay, but wouldn't you rather explain it so you we can make sense of it then just have other people side of the story like You want to defend yourself and like this picture people are painting of you now's your chance, man Defend yourself. I mean who's who's telling you these things? People that were close to you Obviously not well Maybe at the time maybe not anymore Yeah, I mean you saw that reward on the news, right? No, I didn't know Do you know that the reward is about $40,000 to find where your daughter is right now? Okay When when you start throwing money around like that people come out of the woodwork that you would never expect to do Okay, so like I said when I talked to you a few days ago Can I have a little cigarette? Sure I kind of told you this thing was going to get a lot bigger It's not right and we wanted to get ahead of it, but you're sitting there telling me that Right off the rip that there was Something wrong with my daughter because of me. No, that's bullshit. Okay, so if your daughter had marks on her at some point when he lives over there How would you explain those? How would you get those marks? Well, I would love to know when that marks was in because dcyf came to my house multiple times Okay, and we know we know that they came in right and in close to case okay Do we know that dcyf is the uh flagship agency in in the country? No, but If there was Significant marks like you're referring to I believe they would have flagged something at that point and they would have said something They wouldn't came they would have seen that the kids were well taken care of all the kids loved being at the house All right mark, what do you got? Yeah, so it goes back to the cup takes up more space Which is interesting because we might go Well, he's uh, he's being a bit more confident right now. I think it's more likely He wants to show everybody in the room that he's more confident There comes a point in the question where he makes a decision. He's going to have to front this one up He's going to have to be confident here starts adapting on the cup That's you know take that I mean moving the cup around for no apparent reason is what adapting would be in this particular situation Taking up more space and a kind of a lint picking let's say But on the table, you know brushing brushing the ash Away Again, I think that's in order for his adapting so there's there's an element there of stress The same time it could show that he's nonchalant to what's going on it can show that he is Confident is that because he's actually confident? No, I think it's more likely He wants to show us that he's confident here Look, if I was accused of Assaulting my own child Why do I care about ash on the table? Why do I care about anything else other than clearing up this situation? significant marks One of the interviewers here says says As a question, you know, tell us about these significant marks. The kids were well loved Well, that doesn't answer the question because you know, my kids are well loved and they've had Significant marks on them, you know kids get into scrapes all the time things can be Explained you can be well loved and you can have significant marks But he wants to deviate away from that Scott. What do you got on this one? All right? Yeah, I agree with you He moves that cup and wipes the table and stuff because he's got to have something to do again I agree with you. It's because of control. He has none So he's adapting and he's getting he's making it look like something's happening when there's really nothing going on Quite often when you when you see somebody what you were talking about lint picking mark I know this is that one of the things you cover all the time When someone is disrespecting you as you talk to them, they'll they'll start pulling stuff off their Clothes and doing that. We like like you're insignificant. What's going on this little stuff on my shirt It's more important than that But in this case, I think he's just kind of freaking out. He just needs something to do And it's his brain saying we got to be in control of something I think he's trying to try his best to find out what they know Because they've hinted that they know something and he doesn't know if somebody's talked to him Is it his wife? Is it one of his friends? And when they talk to him when they tell him so he's trying to find out If they did talk to somebody because he can't tell if they're faking or not So then he's being so still and in this specific situation this lets us know his mind is racing He's got a lot of that in internal dialogue going on up there And now he thinks there may be a chance he's going to get out of this I think as he says he squirms through this But plus he thinks there's a rat in his camp So they're starting to psychologically Bear down on him and tell him you've got no friends man You're in here, it's us And he's starting to feel that heat But I think somewhere in his brain he's still got that idea He can get away with it That he's going to get away but they don't they're like well, we'll see what we know he doesn't do it So Then he asks for a cigarette and he talks a little bit more when he has one And I think they know that because he becomes more comfortable And that's why they give it to him and one of the keys to a good interrogation has Shutten up and just letting him yab as much as you possibly can And for the most part that's what these guys are doing But I think he's under a lot of stress and he's feeling that stress right now Greg, what do you got? Yeah, this is a really good one because I think his gears are turning but they're not meshing I think his brain from whatever he substance he's used They're not necessarily meshing well like we would think There's a couple interesting things and mark I agree with you He's trying to do something here. He is spinning This is all spin. He's trying to this anger approach and then the no evidence approach to try to push you off There's feigned anger in him. You can't miss. He doesn't nix and You know the richer nix and brow down as he's talking But he doesn't non-confident head bobble if you're driving a point with your head You drive a point your head. You don't do this And so we see that and then they go into classic read and they say hey We want to hear it from you. We don't other people to tell you when they do that He breaks eye contact and then he tweaks. I'm not sure that's anything other than Fidget because there's something going on inside his brain Smoking is a beautiful beautiful beautiful adapter because it's ritualistic and it comforts a person In addition to the nicotine never smoked a day in my life But I'm a child of the 60s and I always said when I live with my parents as a two pack a day man from secondhand smoke because everybody smoked when I was a kid and You know that that nicotine soothes the person who's And some of you have smoked before we'll know soothes your nerves in addition to that There's all the ritual that goes with it all the hand movement All the flicking the ashes and all that kind of stuff that becomes second nature and really adaptive But pay attention to him because there's one thing he does that is higher energy than anything else And I agree with all of you. It's that wipe that really hard wipe of the of the desk That's high energy and it's control of the situation. I think he is trying to release nervous energy in every way he possibly can He does a classic the child argument of I know you are but what am I there's not content at all to his argument back I could have scripted the line I almost wrote it down and before I while I was watching it to show you guys I could have scripted the line who told you that Because that's classic for it didn't happen. No, who told you that I always say the truth needs the truth doesn't Sorry, the truth needs no support But lies love a crutch this guy's looking for a crutch and these are all the things he's doing We says no I didn't he breaks eye contact and then he makes hard eye contact hard eye contact At the questioner until he asks for another cigarette and then he breaks away This is one of those opportunities when you see the guy breaking away hard eye contacting the lead investigator and the other It's a really good indicator in the interrogation room that mutt and jeff threat and rescue Good cop bad cop whatever term we use and all the different businesses will work on that guy because he's already identified threat and friend and so we take advantage of it I'll leave the last couple of pieces, but I just want to say this one thing He says the kids wanted to be there kids adapt to horrific situations and don't know the difference That's part of the problem That's part of the problem and so him saying all that kind of stuff makes him more of a monster to me not less chase what he got Yeah, great. You all covered a lot there Few things here in this clip. There's no denial He just says that the way they're approaching the conversation is out of line Then he says it again. What you just said to me blah blah blah. You guys are completely out of line. No denial This is a big deal and instead of denying anything again. He says who's side of the story Who's telling you these things he asks So this might be an accidental leakage of knowledge That when there's two sides of the story, then there's somebody he's intimately familiar with who is involved and you can see Where he thinks his information is coming from so instead of a denial again He's requesting the sources of the information. So Lots of self restraint here. That's what we're seeing with his hands there And there's two reasons that we tend to do this number one is we we want to burn off these spikes in adrenaline And keep in mind I'm not saying adrenaline or nervousness means somebody's guilty But it is important to pay attention where and when you see these things and we're seeing them at this critical Moment right here. The second reason is self restraint And this is when a person feels they're losing control when somebody makes no attempt to hide this behavior You keep so keep in mind this self self restraint here with his hands. There's no attempt to hide it This is a big deal So there's likely two things going on. They likely do this frequently That because they're not aware that this is abnormal because it's part of their baseline because they're doing this all the time And next they have self control issues and very low levels of self control Which is why this behavior seems normal for them That's why there's no attempt at concealment because it's a normal behavior And he never mentions himself being innocent Only that the other people have observed thing. It's which is a huge red flag The first honest thing I think we see here is his confidence in saying the kids love being in the house Greg perfectly to your point Kids adapt and they they were probably happy in the house at some points in time And him being a monster doesn't mean he didn't have moments of lucidity and kindness So I don't doubt that this is true Based on this huge spike right when he says that there's a huge spike in his confidence right there. That's all I got Yeah, chase I when I say monster look it could be drugs It could be drugs that caused him to do whatever Don't care You know, this is a horrible horrible crime to me Hey, I got uh, dr. Phil's book came in on my kindle last night because of pre-order Has everybody gotten there yet? I've read it. I've read not all of it. Obviously the first, uh, Two and a half chapters. Has anybody read it? Have you gotten it yet? Have you got it today? Do you think you'll do a version where he like reads it and you can listen? There's an audio version. There's not there's gonna be an audio version But I don't know if it's him or not because the last one I don't think it is Hey, if it's not him chase will you read it in his voice? I certainly will I will but but good book I know you know, we talked to we talked to him when he was writing this book in the books We we got issues and I think it is a good primer for people to think about We talk about where division and that kind of stuff. He talks about a lot The opener of this thing wait till you wait till you get to that man. Just the way he opens it's killer You'll absolutely love it. You're a big reader. You'll absolutely love it. So I'm gonna go check the book out It's called we've got issues You can buy it anywhere, right? Really good. You talking to me? Yeah. Yeah. Have we I I haven't you oh my You're not you Yes, not this year Sorry, I was like, what do you do? One of those tape replays They um They talked about how we were worried about your daughter that Aaron Okay, you remember that conversation I don't know that conversation but right off the rep with the way you approach in the conversation You guys are completely out of line. So me? Yeah Do I in the in the time that you've known me what you just said to me you guys are completely out of line Okay, but so explain to me. How are we out of line? I have nothing to explain Okay, but wouldn't you rather explain it so you we can make sense of it then just have other people side of the story like You want to defend yourself and like This picture of people are painting of you. Now's your chance, man Defend your side of the story. Who's who's telling you these things? People that were close to you Obviously not. Well Maybe at the time maybe not anymore Yeah, I mean you saw that reward on the news, right? No, I didn't know Do you know that the reward is about $40,000 to find where your daughter is right now? Okay When when you start throwing money around like that people come out of the woodwork that you would never expect to do Okay, so like I said When I talked to you a few days ago Can I have another cigarette? Sure I kind of told you this thing was going to get a lot bigger That's not right and we wanted to get ahead of it, but you sitting there telling me that right off the rip that there was Something wrong with my daughter because of me. No, that's bullshit. Okay, so if your daughter had marks on her at some point when you looked over there As how would you explain those? How would you get those marks? More I would love to know when that marks was there because dcyf came to my house multiple times Okay, and we know we know that they came in right and In close to case. Okay Do we know that dcyf is the flagship agency in the country? No, but If there was Significant marks like you're referring to I believe they would have flagged something at that point and they would have said something They wouldn't came they would have seen that the kids were well taken care of all the kids loved being at the house So let me tell you about what second degree of salt is there's because there's a lot that encompasses that charge Basically if there's a mark on a kid that's under a certain age It constitutes second degree of salt although it is a felony which sounds extremely intimidating It doesn't mean that somebody got their head bashed in or they got cut up or whatever So although it sounds Pretty intimidating the charge. I understand that What we're talking about doesn't mean that it's the craziest crime that's ever been committed. Do you understand what I mean? okay, so somebody can have a bruise or a really bad welt on them And that would constitute second degree of salt for a kid under a specific age So that's why that charge is there. So nobody is saying that You took like a baseball bat or like stabbed your kid like I'm just going to put that out there That is not what anybody's saying about you So I know you're concerned with when I say second degree of salt, but It sounds a lot worse Then I think you're thinking it is is that is are we kind of in the same page? Yeah, but for you to sit there and say that It's flexed because of me We're just going on what we hear You're not telling us so we're going on what we have but I don't even know what you're referring to What are you referring to? Your daughter had a mark on her face people multiple people Have told us was inflicted by you Multiple people that weren't even living with a bus at the time. Well There was enough people that had spoken about it People share knowledge of what they know. So so somebody you telling him and then he tells you and then he tells you So something that just has not aligned. It's yeah, we're not talking. I'm not talking about like a Game of telephone here. I'm saying that people say a story and then the details kind of filled themselves in like corroborate Do you know the word corroborate means? Of course. Okay You're a smart guy I'm not trying to insult your intelligence but When people kind of fill in the blanks, that's what I mean by like we're corroborating that story But this is your time to tell me kind of explain that, you know, if you're saying All right mark, what do you got? Okay Look nice use I think of severity softening that the interviewers are are doing there You know if you if you they're listening to them and you hear them saying, hey, you know assault That's not such a bad thing. It's not that they think that's not a bad thing They think it's a terrible thing, but they're giving him Chase as you would say a bridge To walk across, you know a little way, you know, they're just trying to you know tease it out of him So don't think that these two cops don't think assault is terrible. I think it's terrible But in that situation there, they're doing an act. They're doing a play. They're giving a performance They're being characters that will help, you know, bring the story out of him Uh, no, what do we get out of him? What what I love about this is you can see him Massaging there what we call li4 which is this pressure point between the the thumb and the forefinger here I think the li stands for lower intestine because in chinese medicine It's it's meant to link to your lower intestines and make you feel a little bit better But most people find that if you massage there your headache often goes away What I love about this this area Nick kind of links something with long intestines Is if you do if you're cooking a steak and you do this, you know, you do this and you you touch down on this Okay, the the the feeling that you're getting there. That's that's the feeling that you should be getting from a rare steak, okay If you touch here, that's the feeling that you should be getting from From a medium steak and if you're touching here, that's the feeling that you'd get from a well done steak So my advice is your steak should feel like that like li For when you've got a fist going on there a little bit of uh cooking advice for you there Uh chase, what do you got in this one? Join us next week when we talk about girl cheeses No, man Mark you went you talked about lower intestine and then a headache Yeah, yeah, I don't listen. I don't know how they're linked. I mean, I don't know how you're putting the lower intestine and most people go Yeah, but it's good for my headache. I you know, I'm not See the comparison. I'm making Chinese medicine. You know, you see you see the uh thing. I'm gonna make that comparison Okay, okay. Sorry, man. They got me Plus this thing What? Oh It was good Well, I don't know. I listen I can't account for your mind I can't do things. I can't do what I do here and think yeah, but this is what what what happened in scott's mind I just have to say my sorry you have to handle yourself chase All right, you too All right, so this interrogator is talking about bat beatings cuts and kind of going to extremes This is an interrogation technique called contrast and compare And its purpose is to lessen the perception of severity of the crime So you're minimizing the severity of their actions which can make them feel a little bit less defensive or willing to cooperate And you're subtly suggesting that you see them as a person who's capable of making better choices Rather than just some criminal And this can really help to build rapport and trust and it makes the suspects a lot more likely to open up and provide more data and stuff and The the interviewer says your daughter had a mark on her face Then we see self-restraint behavior coming right back up again. You see that right on the hands and uh Then they say multiple people that weren't even living with us at the time. I think he asked this question Uh, he's using a technique albeit on accident called triggering a need to correct the record So he's presenting information to see if the officer is going to correct him So thereby he's providing the accurate information back to the suspect again So he's probing to determine who kind of ratted him out so the interrogator sees his need for intelligence And instantly fixes it which is pretty rare to see In an interview like this the guy instantly sees this little need for intelligence calls him a smart guy right away And in this clip, he's provided The suspect here is provided with an explicit opportunity to explain his side of the story and chooses not to That's pretty big and he instead launches in this disinformation discrediting campaign of skepticism He uses skepticism as a defense mechanism here, which is A gigantic red flag scott. What do you got? All right Well his left hand obviously is gripping his right hand and he's back to adapting because he's under a great deal of stress And when he hits that cigarette his head comes forward, but his torso doesn't so that lets us know He's got a whole lot of inner dialogue going on up there. He's thinking about what's happening He's trying to and i'm not yeah, he's probably an idiot But he's he's thinking about what's happened what they've gone through so far and where he's sitting now As he tries to structure what he wants to happen next. He can't do it He can't I don't think he understands the way this works as much trouble as he's probably been in There was life through the the drugs he's been into But he can't get a handle on what what's he understands what's happening But he can't figure out what's going to happen next. I think that's the problem with him right now And then this is classic drug behavior So as he's smoking he starts balling up we can see him ball up and his voice starts quivering Then everything he's his language. He's using is very basic outside of those words Everything's very small really small words very basic his sentences are fairly short and to the point So he's he's again trapped there. I think just in that in that moment The the detective tells him he's not trying to insult his intelligence I don't think there's much there to insult But when he does that He's trying to get in with him and say and tell me he thinks he's smart without saying, you know He's saying you're smart. In other words, I'm not trying to insult your intelligence But I think he does it by accident um I'll leave it right there. I can go on uh, who's next thank you. Is that everybody? All right. What do you got? So it's kind of like teaching a cat algebra This guy's brain is not capable of functioning in that way right now This guy's brain is reacting and it's reacting just as read and as the interrogation method would predict They're poking him. He's responding in certain ways to your point chase if he were innocent If he knew nothing about it say look, I have no idea. I I don't know why we didn't report He would give you reasons. There's not a reason. There's a lash back He does this stuff. He picks up the minimizing is what I refer to that as just saying Hey, look, at least you didn't kill over the hammer that kind of thing He takes that lead and then turns it into his own lead He says and he distances as he speaks. He's slow rambling as he's walking through I think in large part due to the fact when people use serious drugs Their brain that addiction is occupying part of their brain that they can't use otherwise because it's just tied up and Trying to get those receptors working And he rambles and doesn't come up with a real answer But he's very severity softens on his side and goes to passive voice It was inflicted because of me is what he says. He didn't say I did it. You're telling me I did it It was inflicted because of me. That's a whole lot of Distancing and severity softening and there's no challenge at all back when he says it happened on your watch So you're there the first argument he ever makes That makes any sense in this entire thing is multiple people who didn't live with us That's the only thing he says that makes any sense. The rest of this is him adapting him and cat brain as I refer to He's in limbic. You're right. Scott. He's in limbic thought. His brain is not rationally Processing anything but it may not have the capacity because of past Drug use or current drug use or other things all of us Well, all that together. It could be dumb as a post. I don't know But even dumb as a post knows a threat. This guy's not perceiving the threat correctly He's perceiving the threat As he has projected it when he comes into the room. He's not seeing what's happening He thinks these cops are just disrespecting him. It's far from that and they know what they what they got And they they're gonna walk him down. So there's another stick in the bundle him not fighting back him giving them Taking what they did and then minimizing the impact from him and a passive voice is stick number two So let me tell you about what second-degree assault is there's because there's a lot that encompasses that charge Basically if there's a mark on a kid that's under a certain age It constitutes second-degree assault although it is a felony which sounds Extremely intimidating It doesn't mean that somebody got their head bashed in or they got cut up or whatever So although it sounds Pretty intimidating the charge. I understand that What we're talking about doesn't mean that it's the craziest crime has ever been committed. Do you understand? I mean, okay so somebody can have a bruise or a really bad welt on them And That would constitute second-degree assault for a kid under a specific age. So that's why that charge Is there so nobody is saying that You took like a baseball bat or like stabbed your kid like I'm just going to put that out there That is not what anybody's saying about you So I know you're concerned with when I say second-degree assault but It sounds a lot worse Than I think you're thinking it is is that this are we kind of the same vision? Yeah, but for you to sit there and say that It flexed because of me We're just going on. What we hear you're not you're not telling us. So we're going what we have but I don't even know what you're referring to What are you referring to? Your daughter had a mark on her face that people multiple people Have told us was inflicted by you Multiple people that weren't even living with a bus at the time. Well There was enough people that had spoken about it Yeah, people share knowledge of what they know. So so somebody you telling him and then he tells you and then he tells you So something that just has done a lot. It's yeah, we're not talking. I'm not talking about like a Game of telephone here I'm saying that people say a story and then the details kind of filled themselves and like corroborate. Do you know the word corroborate means? Okay, you're a smart guy I'm not trying to insult your intelligence but When people kind of fill in the blanks, that's what I mean by like we're corroborating that story But this is your time to tell me kind of explain that, you know, if you're saying This was a mistake or this is an I don't even know what you're referring to like that's what I'm trying to get at I don't even know what you're referring to. I'm saying she had a mark on her face. I mean, I don't even know what you're referring to You don't recall your daughter ever having a mark on her face. The reason DCYF came out to visit you guys, you don't recall that Why did DCYF come out and start? Visiting you guys. What was the allegation? If I remember correctly, it was because of I believe at the time I could be wrong. I believe I've had something to with my uncle saying I was using drugs And I wasn't. Now who's your uncle? So you're clear. Kevin. Okay. And Kevin's last name? Montgomery. Now, he lived there with you? He lived there with me Right around the time when I was first going back to get custody from my daughter Okay, and then he left and April made something, mod something, something around that time. And just so I have it right because I don't want to guess or like get confused What house are we talking about? Gilford Street. All right. And what was the number there again? I'm not 100%. Okay. Do you remember what like what call of the house was at least? Age, maybe. Okay. And whose house was that originally? My grandmother's. All right. And grandma is who? Kevin's mother. Kevin's mother. My dad's mother. Okay. So was it the Montgomery group living over on Gilford street? Yeah, and they all moved out. My grandmother moved out in like January But my little brother and they all moved down to Florida and then Kevin went a couple months later and so Grandma uncle Kevin you said little brother and Grandma, Uncle Kevin, you said little brother and who's he? My father's Michael. So Michael, that's what I meant, like what's his first name? Yeah, his girlfriend. And his girlfriend, is he still with that same girl now? I have no idea. Oh, so you don't talk to Michael anymore? No. OK. What was that girl's name at the time? Because maybe she could help us to say that like this is- Kayla, I believe. So Michael's girlfriend's name was Kayla at the time? And you dated Kayla at the time? Yeah. So Connie got confusing in the house of somebody who's yelling for Kayla? Yeah. OK. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, here's a great example of why baseline is going to matter. And like I always say, not the sitting at home on your couch eating Cheetos baseline, the in this room baseline. What we're going to see is him talking about facts. And we see facts. He opens up. He starts to illustrate. His body language is open. He's more alive. Everything comes to life. Well, why is he locking down and not doing that when he's talking about his daughter? But when it's about a house, so it's starting to give us this cop a chance to identify the trap. And he's working his way down the path now. So that's just one example. But when a person finds a place in a resistance point they want to hold on to, they should stick to it and stick to one kind of body language and not the other piece. Your language, your spoken words should match. Some of these are missing. There's a difference in where he's at. Suddenly he's touching his face out of baseline when they're asking questions about the little girl and all that. But when he goes back to this whole thing, when he talks about, I believe at the time I could be wrong. You can hear him hedging around the time when this whole thing occurred. And then when he gets down to the actual facts of the house he's opening up his hands. He's doing all this movement. And he's just edgy in general. So when we see this deviation, now we got a problem. And the reason that he's having this deviation and he's starting to lock up when he starts talking about little girl and getting down to timeline is because these guys are building now a timeline they can track when the last time this little girl was seen. They're not casually asking any of these questions. The house has nothing to do with the house. The house has to do with the last time this little girl was seen. The car has nothing to do with the cars. They're talking about this. It has to do with timeline, it has to do with the last time this little girl was seen. So watch for it. Watch him be more open, more telling with his hands and with body language. And then less when he gets to this girl. It's a big deal. Scott, what do you got? Now we're seeing a lot of face touching. And we see it three times. And this is an indicator that again, that this is a high stress. We keep saying over and over and over. But sometimes you can take clusters that we're looking for these groups of behaviors. And you can say, okay, he's touching his face a lot. Another thing about the face that when he's smoking that cigarette, he touches his lips every time. He didn't just put it in his mouth and boom, I used to smoke a lot. So, you know, you put it in there and hey, what's going on and all that. But he pushes on his mouth when he puts it in there. So when we push on our mouth, that sends a signal to the brain to relax. So that lets us know and lets those guys know this guy's stress is really at a high level here. And let's add that underarm scratch to this cluster of behaviors we're going through. And when we talk about clusters, please listen to what we're saying. There's not one thing that, one behavior that'll tell you for sure someone's being deceptive, lying or telling the truth. We're looking for a group of them. So, and we say they suggest deception because we can't say that means he did this, that means he did that or he's lying because he did this. Anybody tells you that? They're what I refer to as a Googling expert. They just Google all this stuff and they start telling you about it. And a bunch of that information is wrong where it's incomplete. So please keep that in mind as we go through this stuff. We say it suggests deception and we're seeing things that suggest deception and we can feel pretty confident because we've seen a whole lot of things that have suggested deception so far up to this point or what things through research we know suggest or indicate deception. So keep that in mind as we go through this. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, and that's what I tell people all the time. We work in likelihoods. So our whole job is about likelihood. What's the likelihood of X happening? So what he's actually doing here is really common in guilty people and we've all seen it. And my entire career has been in looking for this kind of behavior. He's gone into this room with a plan to be confused and cast doubt. So he's so committed to this that after it's explained two times he isn't sure what to say. So when he's not sure what to say his brain defaults to what he committed to do. He reverts to his initial psychological strategy of I don't know what you're referring to. That's the strategy. So this behavior of doubling down on being confused and not knowing anything can lead you into trouble, especially when the information is in front of your face and then you don't know what to do with it and you default to pretending like you're still confused. It doesn't answer the question about recalling his daughter with a mark on her face. Doesn't answer it. And then he says, and listen to this. I think I'm getting them all here. If I remember correctly, it was because um, I believe at the time I could be wrong. I believe something to do. This might be one of our top five most qualified statements in the history of the behavior panel. It's filled with self restraint behavior, a behavioral change to upward tone confirmation glances between the interviewers hesitancy and its hesitancy to a reasonable question. So if I asked you like what's 37 times 904, there would be hesitancy there. If I ask you what's your name and you hesitate for a few seconds, those are two different types of hesitancy. So we're seeing hesitancy to something that he should reasonably know. And the interrogator shows us how capable and easy it is for him to ask questions that aren't about the daughter. He answers everything openly that aren't about the daughter. And he starts instantly responding to everything there. Still lots of self restraint behaviors, but the largest spike in stress response is about the, his daughter and going to speak to Kayla. Specifically when the interrogator mentions that woman or when he brings her up because of the question. And I'm sure in their mind the moment they saw this, if the interrogators did see it, they made a note to talk to Kayla as soon as humanly possible if they hadn't already. Greg, what do you got? Mark, what do you got? Yeah, somebody. Chase couldn't agree more that it's one of the most hedging, distancing, navigatory possibility and indirect statements that we've had. And so just like you, I wrote it down as well. And so I have no, not much more to say on that. Yeah, if I remember correctly, it was because of, I believe at the time I could be wrong. I believe, I mean, full of belief, full of possibility, full of hedging. The only time I've seen more than that, I would say, and this is no political comment, is Biden talking about Tara Reid. That's the only time I've seen more navigation than that extraordinary situation. If you want to go and see that, there's our Biden, Tara Reid, he was talking to somebody on television. Can't remember who it was. In a sense, yep. That's right, that's right. So I'm gonna say one more thing, Chase, about this idea of we deal in likelihood and that's the world of probability. We're always looking at, given this and given this and given this, what is the probability of X? And that's not art. That's how science works. So people who often go, well, is that kind of an art that you're doing here? And is it kind of a pseudo science? No, that's actually how proper science works on probability. It's the best idea we have today of based on how we go out and look for the idea. It's a set of probability. So here we are doing the science of behavior. Let's have another. Let me add one thing to that, Chase, when we're in the interrogation room, the best part of it is we don't just work on probabilities, those probabilities tell us where we probe and then we tear the scab off and dig in a little bit and find out where we right or wrong as we're going along. All these tools we're teaching you, all these tools we're talking about whether it's read or sharp or any of the stuff we all are doing is about not just guessing, but saying, is it rational for me to think this and probing a little further and looking for more compounding indicators and clusters? And I think that's the difference between you and me. I can't speak for Scott, but in my mind, if someone is aware that they're being interrogated, I have not done my job properly. But in my world, you kind of tear scabs off a lot faster than I would, because I like to just dump a lot of anesthetic on there to where they don't know what's happening. When I say take the scab off, I want to know what's underneath is all I mean. Trust me, I'm the friendliest guy I ever met when I'm in an interrogation room. And there's times, and you've seen, if there's a time where there has to be a bad guy and I'm the biggest guy in the room, I was gonna be the bad guy, that's the way it works. But most interrogations, even when I was working and go into an interrogation room, hostility doesn't work, we know it doesn't work. Then you have to work harder. You get the person out of their thinking brain. So trust me, when I say tear scab off, I don't mean aggression. I don't mean that you were inherently aggressive. I just meant that our approaches are different. You're more likely to take a hard nose or hard line than I am, I think. One of the things that I've found though, to your point, Chase, when you go in, one of that, cause I'm different from Greg as well, is I go in and just hang out for like 10 minutes and just like, wait on something. Have somebody come in and sign something or have me sign something. And then what I do is, when that person comes in, I have them be rude, and I'll talk, try to talk to them something they'll leave. And then I'll, I'll take that person and I want it. Good cop back up. So yeah, but the thing is it makes them sort of bond with you because it's us and them outside the room, whatever's outside the room against us and here. And then you just hang out for a few minutes and you can get so much. One of the first times I saw that was my buddy, Jason Rosalia did that. He was a homicide detective at Nashville. And we went in there and we just sat there and talked to him, just was this acting like he was waiting and had somebody come in and sign something. And I looked at him and he did that to the guy and they talked for a few minutes. And it was afterwards, I was like, what are you doing? He said, here's the way this works. I was like, holy smokes. He's great at that stuff, man. Well, I think Navarro and Schaefer had a formula. They always put formulas to things when they were working together. One was report equals proximity times intensity. It was about spending time in the room with someone. And Chase to your point, look, it depends on the person. I'll tell you the funniest parts, many times where I was chosen to be the bad guy and I'd go in and do stuff. The women who were supposed to signal me and back it down would come in and be more aggressive than a bus. I would just laugh about it. I was like, what are you doing? Well, you and I did that with, what's her name? With Dawn and Candice. She'd run to me and she kept running to me. Then I turned on her and you were nice to her that you'd turn on her and she'd run back to me. Just, it was great ping pong. But I think all of it said is a good point, Chase. You have to figure out what the person needs, what works. It's an opportunity for you guys here that could be a good cop, that cop, really good one. And I don't know if you're watching this right now, what Scott just said is profound. That I retired from the military in 2019, I think, 2019. And the first civilian I ever interrogated in my life, I called Scott on the phone. This is before the behavior panel existed. I was like, dude, I'm interrogating a civilian. I've never done a civilian interrogation before. I've got to deal with HR. This is gonna be taking place in California on top of that. So I had to, and I had 28 minutes to interrogate 30 people over the course of a couple of days. And Scott, you taught me that trick about just, I'm sending here waiting for papers and the waiting for papers becomes the thing that stalls everything and makes that window for rapport building. It's profound. That's great. And that's not me. That was Jason Rosalia, Detective Rosalia. He's out now. But yeah, he's what he showed me. So, shout out to Jason. Thanks, Jason. But this is your time to tell me kind of explain that. You know, if you're saying this was a mistake or this was an accident. I don't even know what you're referring to. Like that's what I'm trying to get at is I don't even know what you're referring to. So I'm saying she had a mark on her face. I mean, I don't even know what you're referring to. You don't recall your daughter ever having a mark on her face. The reason DCYF came out to visit you guys, I don't recall that. Why did DCYF come out and start visiting you guys? What was the allegation? If I remember correctly, it was because of, I believe at the time, I could be wrong. I believe I've had something to with my uncle saying I was using drugs and I wasn't. Now who's your uncle? So you're clear. Kevin. Okay. And Kevin's last name, Montgomery. Now he lived there with you. He lived there with me. Right around the time when I was first going back to get custody from my daughter. Okay. And then he left in April, May, something, March, something, something around that time. And just so I have it right, because I don't want to guess or get confused, what house are we talking about? Gilford Street. All right, and what was the number there again? I'm not 100%. Okay. Do you remember what we'll call the house was at least? Age maybe. Okay. And whose house was that originally? My grandmother's. All right. And grandma is who? Kevin's mother. Kevin's mother. My dad's mother. Okay. So was it the Montgomery group living over on Gilford Street? Yeah, and they all moved out. My grandmother moved out in like January with my little brother and they all moved out of Florida and then Kevin went a couple months later. And so grandma, uncle Kevin, you said little brother and who was he? My father's, Michael. So Michael, that's what I meant, like what was his first name? Yeah, Michael's girlfriend. And his girlfriend, is he still with that same girl now? I have no idea. Oh, so you don't talk to Michael anymore? No. Okay. What was that girl's name at the time? Cause maybe she can help us to say that like this is Kayla, I believe. So Michael's girlfriend's name was Kayla at the time. And you dated a Kayla at the time. So Connie got confusing in the house. Somebody was yelling for Kayla. Yeah. So what time did DCYF get involved with you guys? Like were they over there often? Or was it just like a certain period of time? They were there every single day. The police showed up every single day. So they did because, oh, that's what it was. That's what it was due to. So Kevin moved out because between me and my wife and Kevin, we were supposed to like pay the bills, keep the heat on the gas. Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. Well, Kevin was supposed to pay the electric bill. He didn't pay the electric bill. Me and my wife, I picked my wife from work and showed up at home. They were shutting the electricity off. So me and Kevin got into an argument about not paying the bill. And he took his shit and moved out. And then so the next day, DCYF, two days later, something like that. I don't know, DCYF showed up and the police showed up because they said that we were unfit to have the children at the house because there was no electricity in the house. Okay. But we had a generator running where the fridge hooked up to it, there was food in the fridge, everything was fine. The police showed up, seeing that the kids was fine, there was nothing wrong with them. The DCYF showed up and they left. And was that like summer or fall? Like when was that? I wanna say maybe spring going into some of it? Oh, okay. So like you guys haven't been there for too, too long. Six months or so? Okay. Yeah. Chase, what do you got? So we're getting to see what he looks like when he's honest here. His hands are moving. He's illustrating with his hands while he's talking. There's no hesitancy, no delay, no confusion about simple issues like we saw with this daughter, no misunderstandings, no skepticism, no hiding hands, no prolonged self-restraint, gripping with his hands. And this is so great to see that this is the whole or opposite of the behaviors that we saw just a few clips ago. So this is a great clip as like here's our ground truth. And I say truth with quotes around it. Scott, what do you got? All right. He's illustrating, but his arms are all straight and stiff and the illustrators are all happening right there in front of him, right there on the table. So it's kind of, it's odd looking. But again, I keep saying it, stress levels through the roof and that lets us know that. He knows this question is important, so he's focused on it. And that's why his legs and torso never move. This guy's almost frozen as it goes. So you're from the neck down. He's just sitting there all tightened up. And he's decided he's fighting for his life now. It's dawn, dawn, that's what's going on because they've got him almost boxed in. Well, he's boxed in, but I mean, they've also got him the way we look at being boxed in, boxed in. There's no place for him to go, no place for him to go. So when he talks about being unfit for the children to be at the house, then we see his, he bends his fingers at that point. That for me was when I said, oh man, this guy is really, he's fighting at this point. And I don't think he has the intellect obviously to win anything against these two guys because you've got, they're not ping ponging him or doing anything like that, but the approach is really good for my, I know Greg and I talk about approach differently. Greg, why don't you explain your definition of approach? Well, no, that's a Sharpian definition of approach or intelligence interrogation definition of approach as a psychological ploy. The army approves 14, there are tons of them, but the army approves 14 to be certified. DoD approves 14 to be certified. And they are simply psychological ploys that certain types of people are likely to fall for. For example, stupid people are more liable to fall for things like frightening to go down and to react aggressively and that kind of thing. It's just one example, 14 ploys, yep. All right, so when he's illustrating and before he says, but he illustrates with his hand, then he says, but then we illustrate that's your brain emphasizing specific words and phrases. So when you illustrate and there's nothing there, that means you're talking to yourself or you're thinking about something up here as I've said over and over from the very first video, a lot of that inter-dialogue going on. And I'm sure it's really simple for a little guy like this because he's thinking, how am I gonna get out of this? He's just thinking of this structurally in blocks and looking for the hole to get out to get escape and I don't think he's gonna be able to. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so you're right, Chase. Though there may be some truth to what he's talking about, I have no doubt that there was a problem, a real problem with another male there. There's still a story going on here, which a story is just some of the facts, not all of the facts, some of the facts in a certain order in order to win a certain result. And I think we see that because yes, his illustrators are up, but they're going all over the place. The geography keeps changing as to where he's illustrated. He suddenly says, oh, that's what it was about. He's got an idea, he's got an idea. But as he starts mapping this out, it goes all over the place. It's indirect, not direct. It's erratic, the geography is not strong. And then the gesture style changes from these downward fingers to a chop gesture where nothing has changed about the story. So I have no doubt that there is an issue with a male, but I do have doubts that this is really the story he should be telling right now. It's not the story they've asked for right now and his brain knows that. And so it's sublimating another story in its place and it isn't really meshing together fully. And my guess is he's trying to work out, how do I order these events and these situations in order that suddenly these cops would go, oh, oh, well, that's what it was due to. Oh, well, I'm sorry. Yeah, no, well, you were in here for completely the wrong. We didn't realize that. You're free to go. Sorry, and actually collect a check on your way out because we really have bothered you. So let's give you some money as well. That's what he's hoping for in ordering it in this event. Of course, it's not gonna happen at all for him. So very indirect at this point though, there will be some factual elements in there. Greg, what do you got on this one? Yeah, so let me tell you how to know what an interrogation feels like. Tomorrow, assume you're in a job interview. Probably most people's most stressful thing they deal with is a job interview, not usually being pulled over because that's a temporary thing unless they're arrested. But job interviews are tough because it's a sustained one hour or more process where people are asking you to tell them things about you. Now, think about that and you're being truthful how stressful it is. Now, let me also add another piece of stress. Let's just make up something. Some plain cloth, something you never did and try to pass it in the interview. Imagine how hard that would be. Think about how hard it is because there are a couple of things going on. The stress of trying to understand what the person's looking for and trying to feed them the right piece of information while hiding this whole block of other things that don't connect. Does that sound stressful? Bing, guess what this guy's doing? He's in there trying to feed them a second story that's not true while he knows that what they're after and he's trying to keep himself calm at the same time. And if you don't believe that, Mark, I think this is one of the most brilliant indicators we've ever had where he says, oh, that's what it was. And you see a transition in him, his cadence, that's like no other transition in his baseline we've seen it now. It's just dramatic. It's out of place, doesn't fit anything else. And all that, all that stuff that he's trying to do, anything that he says that's true, he's illustrating, he's using his hands. But his brain is still in there going, I wonder what they believe, I wonder what they don't believe, I wonder what they're asking for. And I'm trying to hide the fact that this little girl's been missing for this long and I've known it. They're bumping up against my timeline. So you can see anytime he gets the chance to talk about something he's comfortable with, like where I went to school in my interview process, he's boisterous, his head's up, he's illustrating a lot, his eyes are moving to access information. And then when they go back the other way, we see him locked down, less hand moving, folding of his hands, all of that kind of information. So we've got a really good baseline for facts and a really good baseline for when he's uncomfortable. Let's start watching from here. Here's another last one. I love watching the police officers. They know they're walking him into the box, watch their fingers, they're fidgeting, they're like, okay, come on, come on, just go, just two more steps. And you can see it, it's almost like fishing, watching if you ever fished with like a cork, washing the little bobber and knowing when to close and when to leave it alone. And then finally the cop is really smart and under sales and said, well, you hadn't been there too long. This guy's locking down a timeline and accountability, beautiful work. So what time did DCYF get involved with you guys? Like, were they over there often? Or was it just like a certain period of time? They were there every single day, the police showed up every single day. So they did, because, oh, that's what it was, that's what it was, that's what it was due to. So Kevin moved out because between me and my wife and Kevin, we were supposed to like pay the bills, keep the heat on the gas, whatever. Well, Kevin was supposed to pay the electric bill. He didn't pay the electric bill. Me and my wife, I picked my wife from work and showed up at home. They were shutting the electricity off. So me and Kevin got into an argument about not paying the bill and he took his shit and moved out. And then so the next day, or two days later, something like that, I don't know, DCYF showed up and the police showed up because they said that we were unfit to have the children at the house because there was no electricity in the house. Okay. But we had a generator running, where the fridge hooked up to it, there was food in the fridge, everything was fine. Police showed up, seeing that the kids was fine, there was nothing wrong with them. The DCYF showed up and they left. Was that like summer or fall? Like when was that? I wanna say maybe spring, going into summer maybe? Oh, okay, so like you guys hadn't been there for too, too long, man. Six months or so? Okay. Six months or so? Okay. And how did it end up that you guys got kicked out of there? All right, so it was like we're in this house. Right. They didn't pay the mortgage or whatever, they moved to Florida so the lawyers' payments weren't being paid and I don't know, right around Thanksgiving sometimes, the sheriff's came and threw us out. And then me, Harmony, and Declan, Shamus, and Kayla left. And where did you guys go from there? We were in our car. Oh, so you lived in your car at that time? For a couple of days. Okay. And then, did you have like a van or something like that back then? At least, what were you driving back then? I was driving some time, I forget. Oh, so it was just like a sedan? A sedan, yeah. Okay, so you were living in the car, so you, Kayla, and the three kids were living in the car for a few days and then how'd you get out of that situation? Get in or where'd you guys end up? We're in the former mom's house, Kayla's mom's house. Okay, and what's her name? Chris. Chris, how was she? Well, I mean, she must be okay if you want to take you guys in. Yeah, all right, all right. I, you know what, man, I don't anymore want to talk anymore. Like this is just being around the bush, man. It just seems a little too silly to me. Anybody else had this cough? Nope. I've had it for like a week. It's going away. It's all the matters. Anyway. All right, okay, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, okay, so a couple of things on this. There's a great gesture in there, which he goes up his arm and down and away. So, I mean, that for me is a massive gesture of scrub that, wipe this clean, let's stop, cancel all of this. He knows at this point where this question is going that everything has to stop on this. Now, why might this be? I was interested that when he's asked about the car, he says, you know, what kind of car it is, the vehicle, a Chrysler of some kind. Seems to have forgotten the car, which seemed odd to me. I mean, I don't even drive a car, but I know every type of car that we've ever had. I know there's drugs involved and you could, you know, you could forget all kinds of stuff, but just, you know, when I think about behavior in general, you know, car the second largest purchase that most people ever make if they purchase a car or if you're, you know, renting one, like it's still a lot of money. And there's, you know, certainly America, it's a big thing, you know, they're named after horses and, you know, they're kind of primal. And you'd think that he'd remember that and I was concerned about that. And then Greg, you told me earlier on that that's where the act happened. So that makes a whole bunch of sense to me. Yeah. You know, Mark, the problem is the car price cost him nothing. He's probably a scumbag who just leached that off of somebody else too, just like the house. Yeah, yeah. Still, still, I mean, it's interesting that he doesn't know, even if I've been given. I remember the cars that we've been given as well. I remember, you know, it's like, wow, it's a free car. Fantastic. Love that. Brilliant. So yeah, I was very concerned about that. And once he's on that track, it's suddenly like, this has got to stop. Chase, what are you gonna do on this one? Totally agree. I had the car in here and I'll just skip it. But everything here changes with one question. How did you guys get out of that situation right there? He has hesitancy, there's loss of fluency there. There's fidgeting, physical signs of his comfort. Kayla's mom knows something and it is scaring him. And he has to take in this huge breath here just to speak at the mention of her name. And the moment Chris comes up, if I get that name right, which I think is short for maybe Christina or something, he wants to flee. And this means that there, the mere mention of a woman's name sent him into fight or flight. So this is very important here. I don't know if this is part of the case. I don't know anything about the case. But when he exits the conversation, he does something that innocent people do. He stops and uses an excuse that they're beating around the bush to the police officers. So innocent people will try to redirect the conversation back to the original main topic, which would be his daughter in this case. He almost does this, but he's scared of bringing her back up. So that goes right back to guilty. Innocent people won't allow you to beat around the bush because they want to get down to this one topic. Somebody letting you beat around the bush like he has been this whole time is more likely to be a guilty person if you see that kind of behavior. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, Chase, I wish you could see my notes because they're almost identical to yours in a lot of places. One of them is, I say this guy has a long history of law enforcement officers. So he probably suspicious all the time and understands that redirect back to, you guys are doing this and you're beating around the bush. That's him knowing how to redirect. I don't think it's anything innocent at all. I think he's just that. The other one that's really interesting here is there's a fund, I write these exact words. There's a fundamental shift in everything as the officer asks you, Kaley and three kids are living in a car for a few days. How did you get out of that? And what happens is his hands now locked. They're not just together, they're locked. Illustrators disappear, hard eye contact with the investigator, then no eye contact, then he's adapting like all hell to your point. And then when he says it seems too silly to me, he makes eye contact with the friendly guy who's been giving him cigarettes. There's another indicator, good cop, bad cop, good cop, bad cop. And then he goes to that lockdown resistance. Let's talk about a couple of other things he does. In the beginning, I think he's comfortable. His hands are resting and Chase Rebecca, that thing you talked about, that's normal for him. And he gets a little to his voices. He's talking six months or so and I think he's starting to develop rapport with this guy. This is how quickly rapport can develop. You've been watching this in real time, watching it develop. Then he's got a pronoun shift on a grand scale like nothing we've ever seen and a shift to passive voice. He doesn't say we didn't pay the rent when it was his responsibility. What does he say? They didn't pay the rent. They didn't pay the mortgage. That is a lot of garbage. And then before this cop asks the question about how'd you get out of that, he's back to that whole thing. You know, he's illustrating voice tone inflection. And then when the cop asks that question about how did you get out of that, we see a lockdown. We've now got three running videos where this guy's had open body language until he gets to the key topic. Now, one key point. This little girl was killed in that car. One, they were living in that car. That's the worst of it. Scott, what do you got? Okay, I always have to edit all of the stuff you guys have talked about. I try to edit it out because I always go last. But, and I'm not complaining, I'm saying I go first. So it seems like I'm already going. So I, but I gotta talk about the, where he talks about where, how'd you get into kick and how did you, when you all ended up getting kicked out of the car when the detective brings that up? He opens his arms and he says nothing. And then he closes them and says, all right. So that lets us know that there's a huge cognitive load he's got going on there. He's got one world just beaten up against the next world. So he's trying to get a handle on what to do, but he can't. He's so far up in his head. Now he's starting, his senses are getting smaller. He's starting to get a little bit quieter because he's constantly going back up to that inner dialogue, thinking about what he's going to say and trying to, to make sense out of what's going to come next like I was talking about earlier. He doesn't know where to go from here because he knows at this point, like you were saying, Greg, the box is closed, they're, they're getting in boxed in they're getting over this. Come on this way, here you go, scoot over this way. That's what's going on. So his head leans forward as well. It's almost like he's at a fight because as he's coming forward, but we know what we want to see is we want to see that head come forward and then come down. If you just start rocking, if you start doing that and start rocking, it'd be over. But he doesn't do that, but we get a little closer to that a little bit later on. And then he goes around, he starts goofing around with that plastic cup in front of him. He's got to have something to do. He's got to have control of something and to get rid of that built up stress and tension. Six months or so. Okay. And how did it end up that you guys got kicked out of there? All right, so it was my grandmother's house, right? They didn't pay the mortgage or whatever. They moved to Florida, so the lawyers' payments weren't being paid. And I don't know, right around Thanksgiving sometimes, the sheriff's came and threw us out. And then me, Harmony, and Declan, Shamus, and Kayla left. Where'd they actually guys go from there? We were in that car. Oh, so you lived in your car at that time? For a couple of days. Okay. And then, did you have like a van or something like that back then, at least? What were you driving back then? Not a price of some kind, I forget. Oh, so it was just like a sedan? A sedan, yeah. Okay, so you were living in the car that, so you, Kayla, and the three kids were living in the car for a few days, and then how'd you get out of that situation? Like, who took you in or where'd you guys end up? We were in Mom's house, Kayla's mom's house. Okay, and what's her name? Chris. Chris, how was she? Well, I mean, she must be okay, because you're willing to take you guys in. Yeah, all right, all right, all right, I, you know what, man, I don't anymore want to talk anymore. Like, this is just being around the bush, man. It just seems a little too silly to me. A little too silly to me. Well, I'm trying to figure out who can substantiate your claims that there's, like, you're not this, like, a monster or a person that either DCYF made you out to be or your family who you didn't get along with or whoever. So that's what I'm trying to, like, let you kind of speak your piece about all that shit, you know what I mean? No, I get what you're saying, I just got nothing else to say, man. And, like, oh yeah, and, like, I just don't want to sit down and, like, kind of smoke another butt. Sure. Sure. So, yeah, let's be honest, I don't smoke cigarettes. I get all the way ahead of myself. I don't smoke. I just don't. That's all good. All right, um, but, yeah, no. I don't smoke, but yeah. But to sit down, man, and sit down and tell me you yourself too, like, this is why I feel like it's just all bullshit. This is just a game. I know what it is. I'm not stupid. I'm just trying to give you the opportunity to explain yourself. You're just saying, yeah, telling me not to make myself, not to make me able to look like some monster, but you told my girlfriend the other day that she should get away from me that, like, you don't even know who I am and what my past is like and all types of crazy shit, like, but sit there and look me in my face. I'm not. Adam, I think, can you talk about Kelsey? Yeah. Okay. I think Kelsey might be exaggerating a little bit. Right. I don't know how to exaggerate like that. It wasn't us talking to Kelsey either. Oh, there's other people talking to her, just so you know. She, she, she told me, she gave me your card and said this was the guy that said it. Okay, well, I'm telling you that I didn't say that, but if you want to believe it, that's fine. I mean, she never had no reason to lie to me. So I don't know why, what she was lying about at that point. She also told me she had no idea that he had a daughter, so I guess we could say the same thing about you telling her that. Right, well, right? She knew I had a daughter. I mean, I have one with Kayla, so she knew I had a daughter. She didn't know about her. She knew I had, she knew I had other kids. She, she told me she had no idea that you ever, like, lived there and that you, like, barely knew her. I don't know if that, if she was lying to me, because I have no idea. I don't know where I know you better than her, so that's what I'm saying. So Christina takes you guys in. All right, Mark, where do you got? Yeah, what have I got? Look, here's what I love about this. I'll keep this short. They'd left that last video with the guy closing down completely and going, I'm done. I'm not, I'm not talking about, about Christine and, you know, and where the story goes on. It takes them two minutes 30 of this and they get him back to exactly the same question, which he's then going to answer in the next video. He's, he's stopped the interview as far as he's concerned. They beautifully keep the conversation going, build more rapport and they ask the same question that he'd stopped on and they get him back on track. Two minutes 30, I think that's fantastic. I would just go back and watch that just to see how beautifully they glide him from where he wants to be back to where they, they want him. He's just brilliant. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, Chase, here's a good example of why I said, if you saw me, you might think I'm a little calmer than I appear to be. My wife always says I'm the most patient person she's ever met. And I said interrogate a little while. It makes you good at it. Cause you take two steps forward and eight steps back. A lot of times you're trying and you're like, too quick, back up, too quick, back up. And that's exactly what they've done, Mark. He's back to that threat in the beginning. He's got his eyes locked on the lead and then he breaks away. Now this guy knows. And so he starts to go, I better do something different. Mark for two minutes, he does that back step, back step, back step. And he lets the guy talk. That's the key. When the guy starts talking, he shuts up, lets him talk. And he's just being very careful. He's doing, you know, in behavior, there's a concept of extinction. If you need a reward nor punish a behavior, then it just dies off. So what he's trying to do is to keep this guy on the line just long enough to know to set the hook. And he's taking his time. Then when he does start to be a little argumentative with this lead cop, the easiest thing to do would be, if let's say Chase and I were there and I were lead and I was being aggressive and he came back at me the same way, I'd get up and let Chase have it. I'd get up and walk out. Cause Chase said this very clearly up front. You're more liable to confess with a single person in the room or as Dr. Phil says, nobody confesses in a crowd. And you're more liable to go to the guy who's been your rescue along. Threat and rescue is important that you give enough threat for the rescue to work. Because if all I do is scream and yell and come in and then you come in and go, oh no, go out. This is not acceptable. You're not really a rescuer. You're simply a prop. But if I give them enough stress that they think that you're their friend and then leave, it works. We did, I did a history channel show forever ago and we put a guard in the room with prisoners and he befriended them and they told him everything. It's exactly what we knew they would do. Anyway, he almost started to walk away but these cops are back and they've transitioned to the work at hand and then he does it marked at your point exactly the question. So Christina takes you in. The next breath from what he was doing last time. Scott, what do you got? All right, I think the interrogators are doing a great job of once the guy says something they just keep looking at him because there's that uncomfortable silence and you feel like you got to talk more and boy, they do it so well. Because listen to what happens. They say he says something then he stops and they just keep looking at him and then he starts yapping again. Oh, it's beautiful the way they pull that off. Then he gets that cigarette out but look at his left hand. His left hand stays over here with that index finger up. He lights it. It's just, it's odd looking. I mean, the way he's doing it, he doesn't get it and light it and do that. He just, it's, watch that when we go through here one more time. It's just weird looking when he's doing that. That lets us know, again, he's up there talking. He's up there trying to figure out what's happening how he's going to get out of this. Then he wipes the table off at the end, gets rid of those ashes, trying to get control of something in there. I know, hey, what's the, what's the name of our other channel where all the edits come out? All the- Behaviour channel. Behaviour channel. Behaviour channel. Have you watched those lately? Say he's doing such a good job of it. Yeah, yeah. If you tell me to say something, he goes, he's doing what I wish I could do. Goes in there and gets all those little things and shows those same movements over and over and over. She's got that damn- Yeah, great. He's doing a great job. Don't go watch them. Do you guys watch those all the time? I just started watching- Yeah, they come through on my, on my phone and stuff on my feed. That's good. Same. Okay. Shout out to Sadie. Shout out to Sadie. Yeah, yeah, no kidding. Yeah. Say those great stuff. Thank you, Sadie. Yeah. All right. Chase, what do you got? So I was in an interrogation room two months ago, and I was interrogating or interviewing an IT person. And I took a step too far just like this and had to back up. And the moment I took the step too far, I pulled my phone out. I was like, you're an IT. You know a lot about technology stuff. And I pulled a picture of my dog out that was in black and white. And I said, my daughter made this black and white and I can't figure out how to get it back in color again. And he's like, oh, yeah, yeah. Took the phone out of my hands, like owned the entire space for a little while, got to hold court for a little bit and got to be the expert for a minute. And then we went right back to it and that rapport was through the roof. So there's not a lot of behaviors you need to see here in this clip. All you need to watch for is in this clip is whether he's willing to defend himself, willing to talk about his daughter or willing to make a denial about any of the issues here. So here's his actual strategy, is blame, indignation, skepticism, avoidance and quietly playing the victim, very covertly playing the victim. And typically the strategy someone defaults to in a place like this when they're in fight or flight is the same strategy they've probably been using since they were about nine, maybe eight years old. That's all I got. Yeah, Greg, you ran out of time that I was going to talk to a guy, an IT guy. I sent you a picture of him but he didn't know he was gonna be talking to him because I was sitting in the same room with him. This guy, I went in 45 minutes in and he's crying. I shouldn't be telling that. I'd take that off. You've got the whole IT world worried now that we're watching everybody. Everybody in the IT's like, why are we giving it to you? This guy had locked up this whole company's thing and wouldn't let him back in. And he was there too. And they knew it was him, but they couldn't prove it. And I got 30, I think it was probably 45 minutes. So I'll give him the extra 15 minutes, just crying. This stuff works. But what everybody should know is this stuff works and you're gonna get to see it, how it works as we walk through these next couple of videos. We'll talk to you, talk you through what's going on and why, stick around, because this is a good one. Well, I'm trying to figure out who can substantiate your claims that there's like, you're not this like monster or a person that either DCYF made you out to be or your family who you didn't get along with or whoever. So that's why I'm trying to let you kind of speak your piece about all that shit. You know what I mean? No, I get what you're saying. I just got nothing else to say, man. And like, Oh yeah, and like, I just don't want to sit down and like kind of smoke another butt. Sure, sure. So yeah, I'll be honest, I don't smoke cigarettes. Get a little way ahead of myself. I was just knowing. That's for a minute. That's all good. But yeah, no. But to sit down and sit down and tell me you yourself too, like, this is why I feel like it's just all bullshit. This is just a game. I know it isn't much stupid. We're just trying to give you the opportunity to explain yourself. You're just telling me not to make myself, not to make me able to look like some monster. I told my girlfriend the other day that she should get away from me that you don't even know who I am and what my past is like and all types of crazy shit like but sit there and look me in my face. I think, can you talk about Kelsey? Yeah. Okay. I think Kelsey might be exaggerating a little bit. Right. I don't know how to exaggerate like that. It wasn't us talking to Kelsey either. Oh, there's other people talking to her just so you know. She, she, she told me, she gave me your card and said this was the guy that said it. Okay. Well, I'm telling you that I didn't say that. But if you want to believe it, that's fine. I mean, she never had no reason to lie to me. So I don't know why, what she was lying about at that point. She also told me she had no idea that he had a daughter. So I guess we could say the same thing about you telling her that. Right. Well, right? She knew I had a daughter. I mean, I have one with Kayla. So she knew I had a daughter. She didn't know about her. She knew I had, she knew I had other kids. She, she told me she had no idea that you ever like lived there and that you like barely knew her. I don't know if that, if she was lying to me because for whatever, I have no idea. I don't know where I know you better than her. So that's what I'm saying. So Christina takes you guys in. So Christina takes you guys in and she's doing all right. And then what do you guys move over to Union Street after that? Is that when you guys get that spot? Nope. We go to the shelter. And that, that's the one on like a, okay. Who's we? Who went to the shelter? They allowed you to go as a family to the shelter. See, I thought they didn't like guys there for some reason. They always like guys there. They didn't let me in there this time for no reason. The reason was bullshit because I would have been there with Kayla again. So back then they let you in there. Yeah, yeah. And it was all of you guys, like, it was the five of you, they let you guys stay there? No, no, no. All right, see, yeah, you guys are just... I'm trying to understand. I don't know your timeline of life, man. You're there. I'm not. That's why I'm trying to ask you these questions. Look, I already clarified it. I already told you the other day what should inspire it. So we didn't all, didn't even go to her mother's house. Okay. Who didn't go to her mother's house? Not me, it was all. Okay, so Harman didn't go to Chris's house. So explain to me how she didn't end up going to Chris's house. I've already explained this to you. Okay. Well, there's some discrepancies between what you're telling us and what other people are telling us. You know what I'm saying? You brought her down to mass and someone says she came up from mass. I never once said, I brought her down to mass. What did you say? She came up here together? I never once said, I was on your video recording the other day. I never once said I went down to mass. So you're saying that she came up from mass? I'm not saying anything else. Why is it that you refuse to talk about her every time we bring her up? Because you guys have just sent me a beat. A bush, it's over and over. You guys asked me what happened the other day. I told you what happened. You guys wouldn't tell us the other day. You guys talked to me the other day. I explained to him what happened the other day. And now, can I? It was just a charade. Yeah, no, don't worry about it. Not an arrest. And I would come up with something. Didn't arrest you? No, the other day. No, but they would have a SWAT team roll up on me and the detects follow me around for the last three days. People are coming out of the woodwork. That's what we're trying to tell you. Like, we don't want you to be paying to as a monster. We want you to maybe explain yourself a little bit and give us some side of your story. We have nothing. We have just what we're hearing from people. 40,000 bucks and drag a lot of people out. Whether you believe you're your friends or not, there's a lot of money. I know what it is. Absolutely it is. That's what we're trying to get. Now's your time. You keep locking up on us. You don't want to tell us anything about her. No, I got nothing else to say. All right, Greg, what do you got? So here's the bear trap. If you don't hear the cling, it's clear. That bear trap just sprung. All they're trying to do is establish where he went in this timeline. Seems innocuous. And then if you really want to pay attention, pay attention to the secondary officer, the not-belied over there playing with his hands and showing how anxious he is to ask the question, who is we? There's the bear trap. Because he wants to know whether five of you or four. And there were four that went to the shelter. Five of you or four. And he's getting there. Now this guy's again fixated on this cigarette and he's grooming the table, no eye contact. He knows he's in trouble. He knows now that he's problem. He's got a real problem. Watching the aggression as he puts that cigarette into that little cup. I didn't even notice it until we're watching there together. Just then he's like slamming it in there. And then when they say the five of you, that's when he's done. He knows it, the bear trap was closed. All the animation, all that detail that's around the family, all that is gone. There's more guilty knowledge transpired. And then he turns into tarik suddenly with that water bottle. Just throwing that water bottle in front of his face over and over and over as a barrier. I don't think he really wants the water. I think he really wants away from wherever these guys are on some psychological level. So that's what we start to see. And if you don't know who tarik is, go back and look at our Dr. Phil first. Everything we did with Dr. Phil, there was a massage therapist out of Nashville who had committed some unspeakable acts. And he was using this water bottle as a barrier constantly. And so anyway, he's agitators, no declaration. Chase will go back to your hands in the beginning they're calm and contained, but that changes and he starts to grip. There's a whole lot of hiding information. He's agitated, he's uncomfortable. There's no declaration of innocence. I didn't do anything. I didn't do anything. Then finally, he gets down to the point where he's trying to hide this timeline. And that's his resistance technique. Watching Groom in that table again, he does it. He's constantly doing all the same things when he is feeling stress. And we hear, Mark, I'm sure you'll cover verbal tics for the first time. No comments about your kid, just about you being harassed. What does that say? Chase? Hey, I'll just say, Greg, explain why, because some people watch these without knowing anything about the case. We don't know anything about the case, but in this case, we do know. So a little more about it. Explain why the number four and five. Yeah, so there were three children, him and his wife at the time, I believe, living in the car when they were throwing out of the grandmother's house. They were only in the car, I think he said for three days. I don't know all the details. Please correct me down below. Happy to see that in the comments or not. But he is only in the car for a few days. In that period, the little girl is struck and dies. And then four people end up going to the homeless shelter, not five. So that's a key significance. Who is we? And the number five is key. It drives home the whole case. Chase, where do you go? Yeah, so this is a classic picture of guilt where you see an open willingness to talk about everything in the world except for one thing, that right there. Every time his daughter, Harmony, is brought up here, you can see it. You can even see it if you watch these videos with the sound off. You can visually pinpoint every time he's asked about his daughter. So a good rule of thumb is that if I can tell the moment somebody's asked about a crime in multiple clips without any sound on, then I'm probably looking at a prime candidate, a prime suspect. So he's expressing frustration. And if you're an interviewer, this isn't just about somebody venting. You need to pay close attention to this because they're handing you the tools that you need to get to the truth. So he's expressing frustration about repetitiveness of the process, having to repeat himself. In this instance, you have to do something subtly that alleviates these frustrations or at least address it. You need to maybe steer the conversation in a different direction, take a quick break, move to a new location, do something that alleviates this because he's handing you data here that's usable, actionable data. Scott, where do you go? All right. Now, usually when you ask him on a question again, you try, that's a tool you use to make sure your story hasn't changed. But in this case, they want him to say the four instead of five. They want him to get that. That's what they're trying to do. They're trying to push. And if you watch that detective on the left, when he's so excited, he can hardly stand it. He knows they're right there because he's doing this on his face and he's wiggling a little bit and he's rubbing his hands. He can hardly stand it. He's getting, now this sounds odd that he's being excited, but he's excited because he knows they're tightening the screws on him and it's coming out. He's under the impression this guy's gonna talk. He thinks we got him. And we're getting him so close, so close. So that's what the excitement is on this guy. That's why I seem a little bit overexcited here because I know how that feels. You get so close. But then he tells him he's already answered. And the second detective starts to see if he can get him to talk by, well, I've already got it. I've already got all that stuff. I won't, but that's in my notes. And everybody else is covered pretty much everything. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, just how much I like these two. I think they're working really well together. I like their consistency. Although the guy who we can see the face of, the interviewer who we see the face of, yeah, we can see that he's getting excited by this. He's not changed dramatically. He was always interested in this interview. He was always a little bit forward in the chair. We've seen so many, well, not so many, but we've seen some specific interviewers interrogators who couldn't look less interested in what's going on. And it's not even a ploy. It's not even a tactic. You know, it's not even an approach that they have. They're just terrible. They're just terrible. What I like is just how engaged he's been throughout. His partner, who we can only see the lower half of the body, he's had his leg crossed all the way through. He's getting consistent, consistent, consistent, consistently being calm, being assertive, you know, not being so forward in the chair. He's getting excited now and he's having to hang on to his foot in order to keep that pose because he wants his leg to go down. He wants to lean in as well, but what a great interviewer because he's keeping the consistency in his behavior. So he's not indicating, you know, to the subject here. We're in a hotspot here. We know it. Well, certainly this subject knows that he's right in the center of the furnace here because he's getting more agitated. He's adapting everywhere, the table, the water. The barriers as well. And by the end of it, he says nothing else to say, nothing else to say and closes it down. So what I'm excited by is, can they keep this going? Again, second time, I think the subject here has said, look, I'm done, nothing more to say. I'm not talking about this. Can they keep him going? Well, let's find out. So Christina takes you guys in and she's doing all right. And then what do you guys move over to Union Street after that? Is that where you guys get that spot? Nope, we go to the shelter. And that's the one on, like, okay. Who's we? Who went to the shelter? They allowed you to go as a family to the shelter. See, I thought they didn't like guys there for some reason. They always liked guys there. They didn't let me in there this time for no reason. Their reason was bullshit because I would have been there with Taylor again. So back then they let you in there. Yeah, yeah. And it was all of you guys, it was the five of you, they let you guys stay there? No, no. All right, so yeah, you guys are just... I'm trying to understand. I don't know your timeline of life, man. You're there, I'm not. That's why I'm trying to ask you these questions. So look, I already clarified them. I already told you the other day what should I inspire. So we didn't all, didn't even go to her mother's house. Okay. Who didn't go to her mother's house? Not me, it was all... Okay, so Harmy didn't go to Chris's house. So explain to me how she didn't end up going to Chris's house. I've already explained this to you. Okay, well there's some discrepancies between what you're telling us and what other people are telling us. You're just saying you brought her down to mass, that someone says she came up from mass. I have a wife that I brought her down to mass. What did you say she came up here to get her? I never... I was on your own video recording the other day. I never once said I went down to mass. So you're saying that she came up from mass? I'm not saying anything else. Why is it that you refuse to talk about her every time we bring her up? Because you guys have just sent me a beat. A bush, it's over and over. You guys asked me what happened the other day. I told you what happened. You wouldn't tell us the other day. You said... You guys talked to me the other day. I explained to him what happened the other day. And now... Can I... It was just a charade. Yep, no, don't worry about it. You're not under arrest and I'll come up with something. You didn't arrest her. No, the other day. No, but then you had your own SWAT team roll up on me and the detects follow me around for the last three days. Yeah, the people that come out of the woodwork. That's what we're trying to tell you. Like, we don't want you to be painted as a monster. We want you to maybe explain yourself a little bit and give us some side of your story. We have nothing. We have just what we're hearing from people. 40,000 bucks to drag a lot of people out whether you believe you're your friends or not. No, I beg your pardon. There's a lot of money. Yeah, I know what it is. Absolutely it is. That's what we're trying to get. Now is your time. You keep locking up on us. You don't want to tell us anything about her. No, I got nothing else to say. I think you care about all my kids, right? But the one I care the most about is your daughter, Harmony. And we have people around the clock calling into us, giving us tips from all over the country because they care too to try to find where she is. My only goal, which I told you the other day, is to make sure that she's safe. I don't want you to get tied into something if you didn't do anything wrong. My job is not to jam somebody up for something that they didn't do wrong. And if you can tell me that you didn't do anything wrong, then I want to believe you because, dude, I've met you now a few times. I helped you out when you were at the hospital when you were having a bell down. You told me about your kids. I sat there and I talked to you. Dude, I couldn't taste you right there. And I didn't do that because I'd saw it deep down inside that you were hurting and that I wanted to help you. Right now, all I'm trying to do is help your daughter. I want to bring her home. And I can't do that without your help. Dude, I can't do that without your help. Hey, can you look at me? Help me, please. Oh, that's all I'm asking for. I can't sleep until I know that she's OK. And I know that you know where she is or what happened to her. But I can't do it without your help. And if you don't want to look like this animal because I don't think you are, not that I don't think you are. I know you aren't. But I can only do so much for you, man. I know. I'm begging you to help me. Because as much as you're hurting inside, I'm also hurting inside. And I don't know how you can sleep at night because I'm sure it's eating the shit out of you. Am I wrong? No. No, it's eating me in peace. I know I'm not seeing my wife. I'm not seeing my kids. You guys are just playing games. Like, this is just. Dude, but I'm not trying. Well, I'm trying to play games again. Good. Like, telling my wife and kids that I'm not allowed to see my wife and kids, like. Dude, that was a mistake from some core paperwork that hadn't been updated. So I said, I apologize for that. It was updated. DCYF told them. No, no, no. This was some like DV paperwork I'm talking about. But I'm talking about DCYF already told us multiple times that there was no no contact order. Maybe through DCYF. All right, Chase, what do you got? The interrogator is leaning in at the perfect time here. This is textbook interrogation here. I have my original interrogation textbook sitting right down here, and that's what it says. And he uses dude to change things up. And then he starts peppering in some of this profanity to relate to the guy and even throws in how he helped him in the past. This is what a professional looks like. This physical contact at this precise moment. It's what's taught in school. And this is a professional level close. And I would have probably done it this way. Maybe I would have done something differently. But I think it was this is well trained, but he's using micro confirmations here. He's getting the suspect to make small admissions of things that are not illegal, like feeling bad and something eating him up inside. You can see it working with this perfect head nod that he makes at the table here. And he's in pre confession, which Scott's going to tell you all about here in a second. There is a method I haven't ever seen in an interrogation course outside my own being used here. And maybe he's been through my online course. Maybe he just learned this somewhere. I don't know. But he makes two statements. One about him not being an animal. And then another statement about something eating him up inside. And then he says, am I wrong? So the question is following both of those statements. So it's designed to make the person more likely to say no. So anytime you're interviewing someone and there's evidence being presented, there's mistakes that were made. There's people making accusations or anything negative to the suspect. It's always them, them outside of this door. That's the person doing the investigation. So separate you as the interviewer. So one of the core principles of the Department of Defense interrogation schools is that the interrogator clearly separates himself or herself from the authority figures. This is a great clip. And I will be using this clip in training. So Mark, what do you got? Yeah, OK. So take into account that as you close this proximity there, that it's going to make contact with the arm that the subject here had already brushed them off of. It already said, you don't get to be on that arm. So that's significant. There's some really significant unconscious behavior here, I would say, which isn't in any of the manuals that you'd ever be able to read anywhere. Notice when he talks about the daughter harmony, how he taps on his own leg. This is the interviewer. Haps on his own leg and the likeness that he taps on his leg to signal the care for the daughter. As he closes proximity, notice that he isn't laying his hand on that arm that's been brushed off. He's tapping likely, almost knocking likely on that arm. It's rather like a delicate pestering child. My my tap gently there. And he says, help me. I can't sleep. Now, interesting. And I would say this is most likely unconscious. But what in my mind happens there is he starts to embody something of a childlike manner. There's some, you know, grand Shakespearean overtones there or certainly even like a Madame Arcate kind of voice from the dead comes in to to nudge this person towards a confession. I may be reading too much into it, but that's why I'm here to entertain and to bring you something you probably weren't thinking of and is not in any manual anywhere to embody the significance of the moment and to try and poke somebody psychologically with something of the significance of it. It doesn't have to be just the laying on of a hand in some way. It can have a rhythm to it. It can have a tonality to it in order to push that person into into a feeling. Greg, what do you go on this one? Yeah, so a slight different opinion about a couple of these things. Yes, it is almost textbook checks. I agree with you. I think first of all, Mark, let's go back to what you said the end of last time. He went internal and what you want, what you need, what you must have to get a confession is internal. And you watch for that because we see it. What happens is they get trapped in their own head and they're not looking up and looking around. They're looking down internal voice and emotion and down internal voice and emotion and they start into a spiral and we can see it. We know it's happening and their body is locked up. And then what we typically do when they get to that point and they're ready to blossom open is we reach over and we touch them. I'm not a fan of the tap for one reason. If somebody's asleep, how do you wake them? You tap on them. If you touch them, you're calming. If you tap them, you're alerting. And I think we see the only mistake he makes is that tap and this guy sits up and changes everything. You see him come back out of internal, come back up. And I think if he had just been a little quieter, and taken a little longer, he does a really good job of using the right words along the way. When a person is going into that pre-confession, you use words like feel, not think. Use words like hurt, use words like help. You don't use words like think, rationalize. And the other place I think he makes a minor mistake is by saying, make her safe. He should have kept it, bring her home because you don't know what's happened to her. And now you're causing his brain to come back out of that place where it was starting to feel guilt and remorse and all that kind of thing and come back out. Because look, to get a confession, you gotta have a person at a point where they are rationalizing what's the way out from here. And then you quietly speak to them. The other thing is, you typically lower your tone and you talk softly as you're going into it and you don't raise your voice until you're out of it. And he does raise his voice a little. So while I think he's damn near textbook, those three little things, that tap, that rise in voice and that change in words to logical, I think brings the guy out of the trance. Scott, what do you got? So to your point, Greg, he then gets into an argument about paperwork. Yeah. So he does, he literally wakes him up into that conscious mind and they can now argue about bureaucracy. Yep, yep. And I think that's where he lost it. And Chase, you said it early, when it becomes about us in paper, we got a problem when it becomes about official record, we got a problem, what we're trying to do is to get to the point that this person feels like the world only exists between the two of us. And once we get to that point, then they just spill their guts. It works wonderfully. It is a beautiful system. This is why if you're arrested for something you didn't do, get a lawyer. Scott, what do you got? Yeah, they were so close. That guy was so close with that one. He did everything, like you guys were saying, textbook. It's up. I would have suggested the open hand and put it on him, not tap, but just lay it on him. Say, look, man, you know, so close, so close, you all covered everything in here. But Greg and I talked a little bit about this before, just out of, we don't talk about these beforehand. We were talking and it was like, oh my gosh, man. Cause we were both like, God, it was close. So close. They had it. I called Scott and said, you gotta love this video because how close he gets to how this thing went. Cause for me, when I found these, I was like, wow, we'll all love these cause I got so much body language and so much behavior, but also because it is a good interrogation. I think you care about all my kids, right? But the one I care the most about is your daughter, Harmony. And there's, we have people around the clock calling into us, giving us tips from all over the country because they care too to try to find where she is. My only goal, which I told you the other day is to make sure that she's safe. I don't want you to get tied into something if you didn't do anything wrong. My job is not to jam somebody up for something that they didn't do wrong. And if you can tell me that you didn't do anything wrong, then I want to believe you because, dude, I've met you now a few times. I helped you out when you were at the hospital and you were having a bell down. You told me about your kids. I sat there and I talked to you. Dude, I could have tased you right there and I didn't do that because I saw it deep down inside that you were hurting and that I wanted to help you. Right now, all I'm trying to do is help your daughter. I want to bring her home and I can't do that without your help. Dude, I can't do that without your help. Help, hey, can you look at me? Help me, please. Oh, that's all I'm asking for. I can't sleep until I know that she's okay. And I know that you know where she is or what happened to her, but I can't do it without your help. And if you don't want to look like this animal because I don't think you are, not that I don't think you are, I know you aren't, but I can only do so much for you, man. I know. I'm begging you to help me because as much as you're hurting inside, I'm also hurting inside. And I don't know how you can sleep at night because I'm sure it's eating the shit out of you. Am I wrong? No. No, it's eating me in pots. I know I'm not seeing my wife. I'm not seeing my kids. You guys are just playing games like this. Dude, but I'm not trying to play games again. Telling my wife and kids that I'm not allowed to see my wife and kids. But dude, that was a mistake from some core paperwork that hadn't been updated. So like I said, I apologize for that. It was updated. DCY have told them. No, no, no. This was some like DV paperwork I'm talking about. I'm talking about DCYF already told us multiple times that there was no contact order. Maybe through DCYF. No contact order. Maybe through DCYF. It could have been through DCYF. So let's, dude, let's forget about it. You've seen your kid, you've seen your wife and kids over the last, how many days, right? I haven't seen my kids in the last two days, three days. Okay. You're always gonna be their father. Declan, Seamus. And then Sierra, right? Sierra. Kiera. And then there's Harmony. I got nothing else to say. Say it. Say it guys. I got nothing else to say. Can you make me a promise? Like man, man, can you tell me that she's alive? You're gonna play the same word games that you played with me the other day. It's not word games. I got nothing else to say. As we care, man, if you wanna know. This isn't gonna go anywhere. Like this isn't gonna stop. No, no, it's not. So, either get on the bus now or get run over. I got nothing else to say. Why is it you have so much trouble talking to Harmony? As I just got, I got nothing else to say. I want a lawyer with me. I'm gonna leave this copy of this X-partheid or, you know, it's a petition from DCYF. They can read it later sometime. I'll put it in your property. Basically the same thing you got the other day is just a little more detailed than we handed you. It does say that you're ordered to help us locate Harmony, but you're telling us you're not gonna do that. I'm just telling you I don't want a lawyer. All right, it is 9.25. All right, Greg, what do you got? I'm gonna be real short. They lost him. He sits back, he looks at the camera. They do good questions, but it's too late. And then he terminates with lawyer. That's it. That's all he's got. Chase, what do you got? I agree. Saw the exact same thing. I think there's a chance this went maybe too confrontational too fast. This is very common with interrogators, including myself. I'm not discounting. And keep in mind we're Monday morning quarterbacking this big time. And most schools don't teach you what to do when the monologue isn't working or the person's kind of unresponsive. And they don't really go into that. Like what do you do when you throw out this long monologue that connects with the guy? You reach out, touch his arm and then nothing happens. This is where I would throw in an alternative choice phrase into a new monologue. And you need to be able to, as an interrogator, to create these monologues kind of in your head on the spot. And this is a perfect test to see if they're gonna make a denial about something different. So keep that in mind. Will they make a denial about a different crime and also something that they weren't involved with? So it just give me an example. It might sound like Adam, there's a lot of people looking into this now and what happens tomorrow I can't predict. And what I do know is that Detective Green is in charge of this investigation and things are coming out that look like it wasn't just you. These hand prints are smaller. And I'm not saying you forced one of your other children to abuse harmony, but with the things Detective Green is trying to write into the report like drug running and the heroin addiction stuff. They're painting a picture that just doesn't look like the person that I know right here. And if this was a mistake, that's one thing. And I see way worse than this pretty often and people get through it. And mistakes are one thing, but this is spinning out of control faster than we can keep up with it. And I'm not Detective Green. I'm here with you trying to make sense of this chaos that's going on right now, but we need to get ahead of this. So I've thrown in the heroin stuff. Did you force one of your other children to hit another child to see if they're comfortable making that denial? And if they're very comfortable making a denial about one thing and not the other, I've pinned down. So at a minimum, I've pinned down with that question whether or not they will deny things. So the covert accusation aren't really accusations. Like if you listen back to what I said, they're just suggestions. So we know he hasn't done them. We know he hasn't done them. And we know that we're gonna gauge how easily he can make that denial. And so we're kind of pulling him down on Maslow's pyramid. We're also using the word we. When I'm talking about me and him, this is we, us and them, the police that are outside of this door right here. And I just invented Detective Green. I have no idea who's running the investigation. Scott, what do you got? All right. This is classic behavior of someone who is guilty and they know they're guilty and they've got them right there. And then he says, you know, he needs, he wants a lawyer and all that. They were so close on this, man, so close. And you can almost see the excitement leaving their body as they realize that this is not gonna go anywhere else. This guy, he has no place else to go. So that's his last hope is asking for a lawyer to see if he can get out of this. So that's what's happening. We're seeing all the body language of him giving up. Head is down, his hands together. He's doing the whole thing. And then he's opening and closing his arms. You know, as he's talking, nothing happening. It's incredible how close they were on this. But what are you gonna say? I was gonna say, when you blow the hook, you need to leave. Yeah, yeah. The person who blows the hook needs to leave. It just hardly works if you blow the hook and then keep talking. Yeah. All right. Have you been marked? Okay, go ahead. Yeah, so look, yeah, no verbal confession, which is what they're really after and then undoubtedly something written as well. So they don't get that. But I think you're right, Scott. In the body language, we do see something very, very clear. Can you tell me that she's alive? It's a good question. It's not necessarily a question that's gonna get a confession, but it's a good question to get a reaction on. And we get a vocal click. First of all, second one that we've heard. So there's some stress there. Just as you say, Scott, the hands open, but nothing happens. There's a moment of vulnerability. So there's concern, vocal click. Moment of vulnerability looks away. So there's an eye block there. The gestures become quite erratic. They're not direct anymore. They're erratic. He deflects into this idea of word games. So he instantly wants to escape that. Then he doubles over and to protect his abdomen area and his head bowels as well. Not just because of the doubling over, but the head actually goes into shade as well. So there's a lot happens there that suggests there's massive stress around. Can you tell me whether she's alive or not? The answer to that would be easy, you know, if he didn't know anything about it, which would be like, yeah, I really hope so. And let's get out there and find her because I've been missing for two years and I've been looking and I've not found her and you, the police, could be helping me find her. So let's go and do that important job. But he's got zero answer and just that succession of behaviors that I've given you there. So it's a nonverbal. This is near to a nonverbal confession as you could probably get. But of course, that's not gonna stand up anywhere. In court, and probably neither should it. That's all I got on that one. Oh, sorry. Hey, Chase, did you get on your Kindle? Did you get Dr. Phil's book? Yeah, he was showing. Oh, nice. I did, indeed. Are you reading? I'm on chapter two. I'm two and a half. You got on that one and then on my... You got to live with one of the ones. That's the travel one. I got one in the car. So have you been taking Dr. Phil to the bedroom or to the bathroom? Or where have you been reading? Where have you been taking that? I have my spot I read in every day. Do you, okay. No, it's not either of those. I think it's a great book that isn't political and because the red side and blue side don't really exist. It's who has your best interest in mind and who doesn't and... Friends just versus him. Yeah, it's so true. And I just wish that when you opened the book on Kindle, it would, in Dr. Phil's voice, just go, well, hey there, right when you open it. I've got the audio. We always check the audio and see because I've got the audio book as well. Not him though, I don't think. But yeah, it'd be cool to hear. Yeah, I mean, that'd be great to have him reading it. If it was his voice, I would buy that. So I can only do an impression of your impression. I can't do... Remember when we were on his podcast and I said that thing about a duck? They left it in. And I said, well, I was talking about all these things. I said, and I was imitating him to him. And I said, it looks like a duck. You don't know where it's going to be. Oh yeah, and it fell flat. As it did just then. No contact with him. Maybe through DCYF. It could have been through DCYF. So let's, dude, let's forget about it. You've seen your kid, you've seen your wife and kids over the last, how many days, right? I haven't seen them in the last time. I haven't seen my kids in the last two days, three days. Okay. You're always going to be their father. Declan, Seamus. And then Sierra, right? Sierra. Kiera. And then there's Harmony. I got nothing else to say. That's it. You said, guys, I got nothing else to say. Can you make me a promise? Like, man, man, you can tell me that she's alive. You're going to play the same word game, specifically play with me the other day. It's not word games. I got nothing. I was just kidding, guys. You want to know. I got nothing else to say. This isn't going to go anywhere. Like, this isn't going to stop. No, it's not. So, either get on the bus now or get run over. I got nothing else to say. Why is it you have some trouble talking to Harmony? Because I just got nothing else to say. I want a lawyer with me. I'm going to leave this copy of this X-partheid or it's a petition from DCYF. You can read it later sometime. I'll put it in your property. It's basically the same thing you got the other day. It's just a little more detailed than we handed you. Well, it does say that you're ordered to help us locate Harmony, but you're telling us you're not going to do that. I'm just telling you guys I want a lawyer. It is 9.25. All right, we've just watched all these videos and we're going to run around the room and tell you what we thought individually about what we've seen so far. Mark, what about you? Well, look, I mean, behavior aside and everything that we're seeing there and we're hearing, the main thing about this is I think just this week, this guy was convicted or maybe last week and he's going to do, I would hope, a lot, a lot of time and get plenty of attention from people inside. Chase, what do you think? Yeah, there's three words that as an interrogator, the only real mistake I saw in here is using these three words. If you're interviewing somebody, even if you're interviewing them for corporate, you never use the words so you're saying and then re-paraphrase something to make someone sound guilty. That's something that TV talk show hosts do a lot. But here we saw a lot of classics of deception and professional interviewer. I think this is a great demonstration of how just seeing what's missing can align your entire investigation, this unwillingness to talk about harmony and his very obvious discomfort here every time her name came up. And to Crystal Soray, I think is her name, Harmony's mother. And to everybody who knew Harmony, please know that we're thinking of you and that you showed some serious dedication to get justice for Harmony. I think it's a good wake-up call for all of us to be more vigilant in protecting these precious kids who can't speak up or protect themselves. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, first and foremost, let me echo that. Protecting children is what we are all wired and born to do. Some of us have bad wiring and we need to get those weeded out. So look out for children even if they're not your children, look out. Look out for indicators, something's going on. You may be what stands between a child ending up in a bad situation and not. Let's talk about what these guys did. Very professional, very good interview. So anything I said in the last video, I don't want you to think anything less of it. Interrogation is an art form and a dance and that both partners have to play a part in it has to work out exactly right. Confession is a hard thing to get and there's a formula. And what we see here is a guy who has experience. We can hear it in his guilty knowledge, his language with the police. So he knows what to expect, unlike you if you get grabbed today and taken in. So he's dancing through that but what these guys were masterful at is knowing what he was really saying versus what he was saying with his mouth by watching a combination of body language, word patterns, guilty knowledge and evasion. You could see him talking freely and then suddenly not. And you could see them, they knew when they were close to the bear trap because you could see them dancing around a little bit themselves and they got that close happens a lot. And it's often difficult to interrogate it's two steps forward, eight steps back. Scott, what do you got? Yeah, I agree with you. I think that it's so easy like you're saying Chase to sit here and armchair quarterback this whole thing go, oh, what about this? And these guys did a great job. I think they did as good as could be done, you know? And as far as touching and stuff everybody has their own style of doing stuff. You know, he touched them with the back of his hand and all that. He probably, we've all been in the situation where we're talking to someone and you're like, I could just rip this guy's head off. So he maybe just psychologically they didn't want to put his open hand on him because he didn't want to get near him. You know, something like that. So maybe that's why he touched them like that. I don't know. But yeah, I think they did a fantastic job. I think it's a great example of a great interrogation how these guys approach it. They both, they worked well together. They worked in tandem and it worked. I think the outcome was good because the guy knew he wasn't going anywhere. And it was obvious not just to him, but to them, when you leave there, there's a psychological thing happening where you know you're not getting out. You know, you're not going to get away because you know they know. So no matter what your lawyer says, pretty much, then you're going to go to the hole for that. So yeah, fellas, I think this is another good one and we'll see you next time. So what do you got?