 and welcome to the Creative Life, a collaborative production between Think Tech Hawaii and the American Creativity Association. I am Darlene Boyd, your host for today, and joining me from his home in San Diego is Morgan Appell, and Morgan is the Assistant Dean for Education and Community Outreach Studies at UC San Diego. Let me remind you that throughout the program you're welcome to send us questions, and you do that by sending your question to questions at thinktechawaii.com. Morgan Appell joins us, as I said, from his home in San Diego, and he is also, in addition to his title as Assistant Dean, he is also a recognized researcher and scholar in the area of creativity studies, often focusing on flow and brain development and much more. His responsibilities often flow well beyond California's borders as he designs, develops and delivers international programming. And Morgan is the host of his own show series, Creativity Conversations. Kind of interesting, Morgan. We're going host to host here at the show. Yeah, going host to host. And usually I'm in the chair that you occupy, but it is absolutely a pleasure. Really thankful to be here with you, Darlene, and our viewers today. Oh, it's our pleasure, of course. Morgan, let's start out by just mentioning there. There is a phrase that I think, and you'll tell me it traces back maybe to the Middle Ages or somewhere around there, the term town and gown. And maybe some folks are not quite familiar with that, but town being obvious town, and then a morphing or a collaboration between the university, which in the early days, I believe the professors wore gowns and their formal gowns. So I suspect that's where it stems from. That's exactly where it stems from, Darlene. It comes from Oxford and Cambridge. And to this day, the dons still don gowns as it were. And certainly, you know, I grew up about a stone's throw away from UC Berkeley, and my parents, both of whom were professors, spent a lifetime there. So I got very deeply embedded in campus rituals and traditions. And one of those, from an early age, was this idea of town and gown. And, you know, as a child, they didn't really understand what that means. But certainly as I pursued undergraduate studies at that UC Irvine, where I believe you are broadcasting from, and also a graduate studies at the University of California. And now as a post-secondary administrator who works actively with communities, I really begun to better understand what we mean by town and gown, and what didn't often have a good history. There is a phrase by Harley Richardson where she talks about the bad tempered backstory and the tense interplay between communities and universities. And that interplay and the fact that the university must change because the faces at and around the university are changing really compels us to take another look at town and gown and what that means in the 21st century. Yes, help us out with that. So how can post-secondary institutions work more effectively with communities? And I knew and I have, I know we have a past history in being responsible to try to make that community approach with the university happen. But I think it's fair to say more often than not expectations are set high and doesn't always play out. But one of the reasons I had you talk to us today is you have some you have some success to report with with this effort. So go for it, Morgan. Thank you. And yes, and I'm very proud of the successes that we have. And I think that, you know, universities typically are, you know, springboards for innovation, springboards for creativity. But in some senses, they really do move at rather a glacial pace. And the idea of a university being located within a community, but really not being a part of the community, certainly is a source of some tensions. The work that I do focuses not so much on matriculated students, undergraduate students or graduate students. But what it really harkens back to is this idea of the land grant university and that the land grant university has an ethical and moral obligation to serve the communities in which it finds itself. And for us, that extends, you know, beyond our campus walls, beyond our immediate neighborhood, and across the globe. So I think one of the most important things for us is to resist the urge to, you know, ride down the hill on a white steed and say, hey, you know, we're here to solve your problems, rather than to move at the speed of goodwill, to be good listeners first and foremost, and to recognize that there is a lot of assets, there's a lot of strengths within communities. And as an institution, oftentimes, you have to wait to be invited in, you just can't sort of barge your way in and do a quick problem-solving exercise and leave. So I think that is really where we found our greatest successes by listening first and foremost. You're also dealing, of course, with adult learning. What do you consider to be the art and science of adult learning? Well, I think, you know, the there was a time in which universities were really the only game in town. And when you look at adult learning, and when you look at androgogy, and you look at opportunities for learners, you know, it was, it's a four degree, four year degree, or it's a graduate degree, or, or, or nothing else. And I think that what we are finding is that the world around us, especially in the wake of what was the worst of the pandemic, has changed dramatically. There has been a sea change in which you find that there are other institutions. There are companies like Google who can offer knowledge, who can offer credentials, who can offer metacognitive support. And suddenly we're looking around wondering, well, wait, what's going on here? What is our role as a university? So when I, when we look at our best practices in adult learning, one of them certainly has to do with acknowledging and scaffolding upon the expertise and experience adult learners bring to the table, just as we talk about differentiating instruction for, for kids in, in K-12, so too must we recognize context, so too must we have a better appreciation of culture and a real understanding of the pace of the world around us. So the world of adult learning is dynamic, multifaceted and moves in multiple and manifold dimensions. And again, you know, if, if you look at where we are situated and you see San Diego is just a stone's throw from, from Mexico, as, as you're probably aware, we are home as San Diego for many years and still to some extent today is a military town. We have the Navy, we have the Marines, we have others, and we really need to better understand and be more proactive in attending to the needs of adult learners who will come from all walks of life. So you mentioned your location and of course we're very much aware that, and especially with, with movies and, and other kinds of things that we know that you are very nearby to the, to Miramar and the military bases. And you've always been there and the order has always been there, but tell us a little bit about the changing landscape. This, the landscape around you is changing such as immigration, veteran needs, globalization, and I know you've just touched on that in your last commentary a little bit, but tell us a little bit more about this changing landscape around you. Yeah, you know, and especially, you know, if you look at San Diego, if you look at San Diego County, if you look at Imperial County, really we're not just solely talking about that area. We are looking at a regional economy that we share with Baja California, Mexico, that we share with Tijuana, where we are very much intertwined culturally, linguistically, and socioeconomically. So certainly that does change the dynamic quite a bit. And when you look at the needs of veterans and active duty military, you know, and you look at how, for example, the GI bill is used, you know, these are service people who may not want to go through a labyrinthine application process and spend four years in a college environment. And what we are compelled to do is really see how we can best attend to their specific needs. So we exist now, especially, and you know, beyond sort of our regional economy, beyond, you know, veterans and the bases, San Diego has really become a home for bioengineering, bioscience, we have really a corridor, we have a tech corridor. So the idea then is to how do we prepare not only adults, but how do we prepare high school students for these economies of the future? For example, you know, no longer are we in a factory economy, which I think is something that's clear to all of us. But for a while we were stuck in an information economy, but now we are situated in a knowledge economy. And again, this knowledge economy, for the most part, no degrees are required. We call it a no collar economy, because with a bit of specialized knowledge and metacognitive abilities, you can find yourself in a pretty decent paying entry level position. So it is incumbent upon us to understand what are the new faces of our learners are looking like and understand that we're not going to be able to do this alone. We have to work in harmony with municipal governments. We have to work in harmony with nonprofits, community-based agencies to really get a more detailed understanding and greater insight into how to better prepare our adults and really understanding that workforce development starts at third grade. Interesting. So let's just, if you would, Ken, might we be able to share with the viewers before we started our show? You mentioned that you're talking to me today, and it seems like tomorrow the next day you're talking to the president of Mexico. Yes. So what is the purpose of that collaboration? The purpose of, so this is a collaboration. Well, this is a broader initiative through UC San Diego called Mi Universidad, and it really is designed to attend to the needs of Chicanx and Latinx learners in San Diego and beyond. And the idea here is to partner with community associations and institutions in Mexico and throughout Latin America, primarily around the 17 sustainable development goals of the United Nations. So ways that our pre-college students can work together where we can have teacher exchanges. We are very fortunate to be able to cosponsor a borderless leadership conference in partnership with UC Irvine. And what we have been able to do is we've worked in concert with Centro Fox, which is President Vicente Fox's presidential library, and that was modeled after those here in America. And we are in the process of opening something called the Centro de Posibilidades or the Center for Possibilities, which will be a de facto campus in central Mexico where we can engage members of the community, where we can create opportunities for local workforce development, where we can work with aspiring scholars so they are able to disseminate knowledge and teach credit courses for us in Mexico. So that is really part of a broader effort that extends into Mexico and throughout Latin America. And we also have a very close collaboration with a community agency in Tijuana, Baja California called Fundación Cumacio. And the idea there is to work with them on community development and educational concerns. So what's interesting to me, especially having done this for about 20 years, there's been absolute sea changes in the way things have been over the last two decades. And right now, I would wager that at least in my department, we have more students in Lima and we have more students in Leon than perhaps we do in La Jolla. Now that really is a surprise. It is a surprise to me, a pleasant surprise. And I won't attempt to say this in Spanish because your Spanish sounded beautiful to me, but I think that's the idea to have the opportunity to have a center and especially that you call a center of possibilities. And find that fascinating. Yes. And really, Darlene, what it's all designed around is the same sort of philosophy that we have with our work that is delivered domestically. And what we call it in Spanish is educación de la medida or education that is built to measure. And that is the way that we interface with school districts and community associations in Mexico and throughout Latin America and in the United States, because again, it is now a buyer's market. And I think that the university is a future is going to look a lot different. And I, you know, certainly not in a braggadocious way, but when I think about the work that we're doing, I really think that we are a vanguard in this respect and really, you know, being proactive. I think so many times, you know, in higher education, we react, you know, in some cases, you know, if you're curing diseases or we're creating the next great symphony, we're very much proactive. But in our work with communities writ large throughout higher education, it has always been sort of reactive. And I think what we're trying to do is not only look weeks ahead, but we're looking at years ahead. You know, what does an increasingly global economy look like? What does that mean for adult learners? What is sort of the internationalization and the customization of the workforce look like? And we try our best to be good predictors of that. What are some of the catalysts for these? And it does sound to me that your offering and your process offers more dynamic approaches to partnerships than in the past presently. So I suppose societal needs and some other things that you'll tell me serve as the catalyst for your partnerships. Yes. As a matter of, I mean, when you consider societal needs, broadly speaking, absolutely. But I think in the past, our philosophy was if you build it, they will come. And to a certain extent, yeah, of course they did. But were we really addressing societal needs? And we move beyond societal needs to very much needs that are communally and contextually defined. And I think for us, what that means is being a good steward of our university's motto, this idea of fiat looks. And for those viewers who are unfamiliar with the University of California or don't speak Latin, it means let there be light. So our responsibility, and I think this is one of the catalysts, is to illuminate series of different pathways. It doesn't mean we always take the lead. Sometimes we walk side by side. Yes, sometimes we do hold the torch a lot and we walk in front. Other times we walk behind. But this is an idea where we understand very, you know, very deeply that there is much to be said for synergy in attending to societal issues. And this goes really all the way back to this concept of flow. And if your viewers are not familiar with the concept of flow, it is the idea that the level of challenge based just outpaces the level of skill. It's almost if you can. And Morgan, if I can just add, you go beautifully into that because that was going to be my next question. And I want our viewers to understand if you dabble in creativity, you're going to see the word flow. But I really want to underscore that the term flow is a legitimate part of the creative process. And I think that's, it seems like that's where you're going to please. And you see, that's what I mean about being proactive. So I proactively predicted you were going there, darling. But indeed, flow is a term that emerges out of the positive psychology movement. And, you know, it really looks at the, you know, the fine gap between the level of skill and the level of challenge. And at the level of challenge just slightly outpaces, just think about reaching for the brass ring and just touching it and not actually being able to grab it. It's just out of your grasp. And what that does is it really activates the brain in ways that it was designed to do. As you know, and as your viewers, I'm sure know, the brain is a wonderful place to store facts and figures and dates and times and people. But really, it was designed to solve problems in a dynamic environment using data from all over the place. So the brain loves a challenge. So whenever the brain perceives a challenge, it will keep going, keep going, you can think about it like a video game. And if you are engaged in those things that the brain detects are critical to survival, i.e. problem solving, you are neurochemically rewarded with some great stuff like oxytocin and endorphins at your brain's way of giving you positive neurochemical reinforcement, you feel good so you want to keep reaching and reaching. That is definitely true for individuals. But I also would wager that this is the same for institutions. When institutions come together to strive to attend to societal challenges or to solve community problems synergistically. And I'm not just saying university comes in, solves a problem and leaves, but really working together hand in hand with the community. That good experience, you get a positive reinforcement, not only from solving a problem, but from working together. And that makes for long-standing partnerships. But a caveat here is that trust is a long process. It is hard fought and hard won, very easily lost. What took decades to develop can be lost in an instant. So when we talk about being good partners, that means being there, being reliable. Doesn't mean you have to agree about everything, but creating consensus around challenges and working hand in hand. We found that it works very well in our collaborative endeavors with school districts, with community associations. Because I think for so long, we were sort of the elusive, aloof people up on the hill who sometimes came down. And this goes all the way back, I think, hopefully tying this into this idea of town and gown, where people from the university aren't necessarily seen as visitors in the community, as though it's sort of an aquarium to peer at. And the people in the community, when they come to our campus, they are part of the family. They are familiar with us. They're not just here for a football game. They're not just here to enjoy an event, but what we try to do is we try to remove the and from university and community, and really understand that we are all one for the most part. And we work collaboratively. And I think that creates a sense of flow, regionally and beyond. I agree. And, Morgan, you mentioned at the onset of our conversation that you have dealings and interactions with Peru and Mexico. How do you build trust or what's your handy-dandy little plan to build trust with, for example, colleagues in Peru? Well, certainly, I mean, there's no magic bullet. There's nothing that I could say. Well, here are the five steps to successful partnerships. But what I will tell you, it all has to do with listening, number one. If you promise to do something, make good on that promise. We talk about over-promising and under-delivering. That's really not what we aim to do. What we want to be able to do is create community around challenges, be good listeners, talk them through. And it is a process. It does take time. You can't just parachute into Peru and say, okay, let's work together. It all starts with conversations and smaller steps. And eventually, those small steps become a journey. And you find yourself at the point where you've cultivated goodwill, you've cultivated trusting relationships, and now you can look at the bigger things. And I don't want to give the illusion that this is something that is easy to do by any means. But I will tell you, whatever investment of time and energy and resources is very well worth it in the end. What aspects or future trends of lifelong learning need yet to be considered? You know, I think flexibility in the academy. I think for so long we've delivered the same sort of structure. I think that is going to change, especially as adult learners need an amalgam of different types of content areas. You know, I think you're going to see that. I think you're going to see a real need for more immersive experiences. And I think what you're going to see in adult learning is collaborative work, cooperation between universities, municipalities, and community associations. Everybody's going to come together to deliver an education rather than going along. Morgan, give me the list of countries you're working with right now. Again, I know you told us too, but I know there's probably more than two. Certainly. We actually have learners on every continent, but working most closely in Mexico, in Peru, in Uruguay, in Argentina, we actually have learners in Ghana, really all over, all over the globe. Amazing. It seems to me that you're dealing with unique learning profiles, especially with international students. Oh, absolutely. I mean, absolutely. But the diverse talents of learners are something to behold and makes us stronger, makes our educational experience that much stronger. What's your wish list, Morgan, to help yourself to be more creative? I dare say that the biggest thing on my wish list is just time. Time to wind down. I find here that things move at a million miles an hour, and just when you think there's a low, I think the phrase is nature abhors a vacuum, and certainly it abhors a vacuum on one's calendar. Time to reflect and to plan and to see how things are interrelated. I think, isn't that everybody's wishing that we just had a little bit more time? Yes. And Morgan, my friend, time is hanging over us right now. So it's my pleasure to thank you for joining us today. To our viewers, you have been listening to Morgan Appel, Dr. Morgan Appel, from UC San Diego as we discussed many dimensions of the strategic applied uses of creativity in planning and lifelong learning. Join us in two weeks for another edition of The Creative Life, until then, aloha. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.