 All right, ladies and gentlemen welcome to our final panel for the day very excited for this one It is on systemic racism among the police in particular with that We're going to jump right into it with our first you could say sub question in particular First dr. Ben Burgess had asked if we could just get a definition that everybody would hopefully Agree on with regards to what systemic racism is and then we'll jump into the rest of the questions as well The floor is all yours. Thank you so much gentlemen All right So I think when people talk about systemic racism, they usually mean one of two things or a combination of them one is The the p plus p definition prejudice plus power people in positions of power having an acting on Conscious or unconscious race racial prejudice So that could apply in policing to you know Cops having such prejudice or other people at various points in the criminal justice system but I think also it often just means any kind of unjustly caused widespread disparity which doesn't necessarily have to involve intention by anybody it could just be like You have certain realities that existed at the time in the early 60s when America stopped being officially in apartheid country and Those haven't been really been fixed yet And so you have predictably disparate outcomes and I think both are real and both are problems But it is probably important to make that distinction Yeah, I mean I can I can go next yeah, I mostly agree with dr. Ben Burgess's example. I think that Systemic racism to give a very broad and simple definition is simply a The outcome of the systems that exist in our nation in our world when they are Racially biased in one way or the other if a certain group seems to be getting kind of you know shit on by the system Or if a certain group is getting by better on the system then that would be some type of racial bias or systemic racism Okay, well, I guess we're already gonna start off with a disagreement because I don't think simply an outcome Is is I don't think that's what systemic racism if it creates a disparate outcome because sometimes Disparate outcomes can exist outside of just Systems I mean you could have the most equitable fair laws on the books, but you could still have disparate outcomes I mean, I don't think that's a good definition of a systemic racism. I think intent is important I think the actual substance of the policy is important I don't think just the I don't think the outcome is the most important metric when you're talking about systemically racist institutions or Any or laws or anything like that? Yeah, I mean I'm on the same side with him that means I literally physically and emotionally agree with him and What we're experiencing when we're talking about disparate outcomes being indicative automatically of systemic racism is Something very familiar to the atheist community. It's the God of the gaps argument, but with racism inserted in place of God So there's no reason we would expect equal outcomes because we've never seen that across any countries any Civilizations throughout history so to say that because we're seeing unequal outcomes which exists within races between races and all different between genders of the same race therefore that is the product of or Blamed on without any additional evidence historical racism doesn't make any sense to me I mean no notice that I did say at least in mind Unjustly caused right, but but I'm also curious when you said that you we don't have you know, we never see equal outcomes I mean you do right? I mean like in other words like as far as I know, maybe you know something I don't but there's no like widespread predictable Massive difference in outcomes between like brown-eyed people and blue-eyed people. I Mean as the only independent variable not as far as I know Okay, so I mean that that does seem to be an important difference You know with the racial case and something that seems like makes a little bit less God in the gaps and a little bit more like Inference to the best explanation Actually not familiar with the brown-eyed blue-eyed data, so I can't I don't know really okay You're not willing to take you know, I don't know if it's true or I might not be true. I have no idea Alright, well, let's let's assume for the sake of argument that that blue you know, but you have data on that I do not okay, so you're just you're just assuming yeah, I am assuming I don't think I'm taking a big risk But but I am assuming that that you do not have Massive differences in outcome like you have racially between brown-eyed blue-eyed people if you find otherwise I'll be I mean black there is a difference. How do you explain that difference though? I would be shocked if there was a difference and if there was a difference then yeah I would have no idea. I think that I think that we'd have to start investigating that But one reason why I would have no idea is we don't have an elephant in the room like it be in the case One generation ago that we had tons of laws discriminated against You know, whatever I color you know would be equivalent to non-white people in this scenario Sure. Yeah, I mean I'd like to see the data on that. I don't think it's a fair assumption I think there might actually no because I think we see disparities in nature like we see it with trees We see it with everything. I don't think it's a fair or something You pick any Individual attribute and say well, you know, you know, I mean for example that we could do height for example And we see disparities when it comes to height and success and things like that. We see it with attractiveness We see it with all kinds of things. I don't think it's I don't think it's strictly Fair to assume also black people would disproportionately have brown eyes and white people We don't fortunately have blue eyes. So those disparities might actually If you guys really don't believe that we can we can confidently make that prediction then Fair enough. Yeah, you mentioned before that, you know, obviously a difference in outcome doesn't necessarily mean a bad thing Obviously in any society on earth, there will be difference in outcomes People are going to have more money than other people. Some people will be stronger taller smarter faster anything like that, right? The problem with systemic racism is that we seem to have a lot of data that suggests a Disproportionate amount of well Disproportionate amount of bullshit that it seems the black community in this country has to go through that the white community Goes through at a much smaller rate, but I don't even think that matters I don't think intent needs to be there and I don't think the fact that it's Disproportionately harming one group alone is some is the reason why we ought to fight this Arising tide raises all ships and in the same way the things that harm the black community This systems that harm the black community also harm white people when white neighborhoods are overpoliced Well when poor neighborhoods are overpoliced some white people get overpoliced. It's you know, it can hurt anybody These are things that we need to brought an out and attack on a On a level beyond just the politicized sort of like is it is it racially motivated? Is it systemic racism or not? We can see that there's a disparity We can see that the systems put into our place are not really working to cut down on crime or improve black people's position in this country I think that's what we got to focus on. What do you mean by overpolicing? well, I mean you can go to anything like a The idea of broken windows policing where you police neighborhoods that have a lot of property damage poor neighborhoods That can't really afford to keep the you know things look in nice and ship shape you can talk about stop and frisk You can talk about the military Militarization of our police these things just don't seem to result in a drop in crime So if you if you don't do something like stop and frisk But you have a higher proportion of police in an area where there might be more Homicides violent crime and things like that. Is that still considered overpolicing? It depends on the context. I don't know exactly if you're referring to like do you want to give an example? I mean just pick most like policing a neighborhood that has more crime Yeah, just generally having more cops there not principally What's an example of a place you would say that has an overpolicing problem? I think the perfect example I hope you would bring up would be like New York right back when New York was doing the broken windows policing like that's That's like a pretty good example Right, and how would that be an example of overpolicing? Yeah, just didn't seem like it was working right? I mean we did see a drop in crime But that coalesced with it or sorry correlated with a massive drop in crime across the entire nation and the world in the 90s Other than that it just it seems like and maybe you've got some data or something to suggest that it does work It doesn't seem like overpolicing these neighborhoods broken windows stop and frisk anything like that actually worked In fact, it seems to be overwhelmingly agreed upon that it didn't work Wait, are you saying that stop and frisk? Well, what happened is that there is there's an in general a Drop-in-crime nationwide right around after the crime bill although some places like New York saw dropping crime a few years before This is very famously outlined in the Freakonomics book and movie where they talk about how New York had abortion Legalized before and they posit that that might be the contributing factor. So it's not all nationwide At the same exact time although this allows us to think that maybe Not a lot of the stuff that we did worked because the drop did happen nationwide But New York City up until very recently was considered one of the safest big cities in the country and you stop And frisk as an example of overpolicing and I'm not sure what you're basing that on Stop and frisk is not it just doesn't seem like one of the reasons that the country or New York City has gotten safer I did a lot of research leading up to this and everything that I read about stop and frisk everything that I read about The overpolicing New York City Stop and frisk was overpolicing you keep saying everything that I read about Stop and frisk basically means that if you suspect somebody might be I know what I mean Yeah, like where what part do they go overboard? It seems like stopping people just because they seem a little bit shady Isn't really a good way to engage as your law enforcement industry or law enforcement System in your country doesn't really seem like stopping people because they're brown or a little bit too You know shady looking doesn't really seem like so you're saying that they were stopping people based on on their race You're it seems that way. Yeah I mean if we want to look at other other examples because the way that stop and frisk was conceived was that if there was Some first of all you send the police out to areas with high levels of crime stopping first specifically was about shootings And if you get something described like a suspect or whatever you see somebody that masses matches the description You would stop question it was stopped question and first initially and then first the person based on that questioning Right and under Michael Bloomberg the program got expanded. So you went from a cap of around 90,000 stops I believe in Giuliani's last year to somewhere around 800,000 stops And now yours your seem to say that that like the reason they were stopping these people was because they were black or brown The data seems to suggest that if you want we can also look at some I mean we can look at other studies and correlate that as well I mean that I know that you probably disagree with them But a lot of the academic institutions that have collected data on the specific phenomenon having to with stop and frisk in New York City have all come to the conclusion that not only did it not contribute Substantially to the to a drop in crime a drop in violent crime or possession of illegal weapons guns or firearms in New York City On top of that it seems like if we compare that to other studies that have been done in other areas such as DC Or I believe there was a study that was done that was like a Conglomeration of like a hundred million different traffic stops that all came to the conclusion that police seemed to have a lower bar For pulling over and searching the cars of black drivers not only that but police seem to Overwhelmingly pull over drivers that are black less when it gets dark out And you can't really tell how what race they are and it seems like if we look at all this data and all these studies Overwhelmingly like you know, maybe there's a little bit of bias in our police force, you know And you know there could be reasons for that and we can talk about those reasons, but overall I think it doesn't really matter I think at the end of the day these systems are hurting everybody white black people was Hispanic people Asian Americans and everybody is getting hurt by these policies. They're hurting anybody who is poor I did also just want to say I'm a question of whether stop and frisk Disproportionately I was applied to to minorities If it wasn't that would have really disappointed the guy who oversaw that big expansion you're talking about Michael Bloomberg who in leaked audio Right said 95% of your murders murders and murder victims fit one MO You can just take the description Xerox and then pass it all out to the cops Bloomberg said their male minorities 16 to 25 that's true in New York. That's true in virtually every city You know some of the unintended consequence people say oh my god, you're arresting kids from marijuana. They're all minorities. Yes, that's true Why because we put the cops minority on neighborhoods and he talks about You got to finish the quote why because that's where all the crime and the way we get the guns out of the kids Hand is throwing look up against the wall of friscombe and it seems to me that wait In that quote in the quote, you know He's saying that he thinks that The description the one you can Xerox and hand out to all the cops is male minority 16 to 25 so the mayor at least on top of this system Thinks and expects and hopes that it's going to it's going to specifically target people for being male Minority group members between 16 and 25 the data that Xander mentions, you know seems to show that Disproportionately this is who stopped and frisked wait so disproportionately to what the population or the amount that they're committing the crime Well, I mean I think that I Maybe you can tell me specifically, you know what what you were looking at You know, you were the one who referred to it Xander But I think that I would say, you know, certainly I know on other issues the you know like shootings I know that the that there really isn't a correlation between like neighborhoods where there are police shootings And neighborhoods where there's been a been a higher rate of a violent crime. There was a study, I know Minneapolis Star Tribune in 2018 looked at like 18 years of data And showed that they're really, you know, there really was at one There seems to be a lot of other evidence That you can't really a lot of other police practices can't really be reduced to that For example, you know members of minority groups are more likely to have their cars searched for drugs even though White drivers are more likely to have, you know, who are searched are more likely as referencing a second ago Yeah, so I want to I want to I want to stay on stopping frisk for a second So the quote that you that you said from michael bloomberg is true Stopping frisk is about shootings go into the nypd's data They are the biggest data driven police department on planet earth And find me a year where the shooting suspects in new york were below 94 percent from year to year over the last 20 years 94 percent to 97 percent of the shooting suspects recorded by the nypd are black or Hispanic So what he was describing was reality when he was talking about this is the description that we constantly deal with Because that's what the program was about and as far as disproportionate targeting It seems like you've switched because earlier you were challenging the assertion That people were being stopped for no, I said over Overstopped which considering the highest amount of black and Hispanics ever targeted by stopping frisk in a single year was 86 percent And their minimum 94 of the suspects in the crimes that stopping frisk is designed to address They're being under targeted So by the percentage but uh, you know, but you were not to be clear because it really sounded like a minute ago Your challenging the claim that people were being stopped for fitting this general description No, no, they're not being stopped for that the nypd operates on a comp stat system So so so so areas with higher rates if they're not being stopped for that No, no, no, they're not being over targeted based on their rates But crime as a little bit of a arrest rates or stop rates in in proportion to population Is the most worthless statistic ever if you're getting disproportionate crime You would expect disproportionate stops. I'm not talking about statistics. I'm talking about the confession from the mayor You know, you said earlier, you know, you're shifting the goalpost for to over talk to the mayor wasn't confessing What you said what you said earlier was oh, wait a second You think people were you know, we're stopped, you know for uh for being minorities and it seems to me that in the league Confession, uh, he is saying that he hopes that's how his his massive expansion of the program He was going to work out. He was describing how the he was describing how the program works That's why I said you should finish the quote because the end of the quote Was him saying why because that's who's committing all the crime This is based on the numbers nypd sends cops Two areas because they use the comp stat system which matches which maps crimes based on reports geographically If 94 Minimum always is described in that quote if if 94 percent minimum of the shootings He when he's saying throw him against the wall and look for the guns that stop and frisk Occur in these areas and you're mapping crime or I'm sorry are committed by black or hispanics And you're targeting those areas based on their prevalence of shootings You would expect 95 percent of your suspects to I'm sorry You would expect this result if you're just following the if you're following the crime Which they are but but that's not what he says. He doesn't say map it out based on the geography He says take this description male minority 16 to 25 Xerox it give it to all the cops and that's who we want to apply stop That's describing reality after the fact who's committing the the shootings So okay, but I mean I just want to be clear because earlier You were pushing back against the idea that people were being stopped and frisked Because of their race which I am pushing back against okay, but wait but like that is exactly what's being described in that Quote, but he's not saying that he's targeting them because they're minorities He's saying that he's saying that he's saying that he's targeting them based on fitting this profile That he thinks you know he said you could xeroxed and passed out to all the cops again If you've been a minority 16 to 25 that's what you finish the quote It literally ends with why because that's where all the crime happens. Yes, but that's compatible with what I just said No, it's not because they're not stopping you're saying that the determining factor for the stop is race on wall street Wearing a suit like that's not who they're stopping. It's still going into specific Neighborhood so I'm not a fan of stopping frisk by the way. I actually agree with you that it didn't Reduce the crime there. Yeah, so I don't agree because you see even when uh when de Blasio came in and the numbers dropped down drastically The crime still went down significantly. So I agree with you on that. So I'm not a fan of stopping frisk for You know, I don't think they disproportionately stopped You know blacks and latinos because again, they stopped them at a lower rate than they were responsible for committing the shootings But it's I just think it's unconstitutional. That's why I don't yeah I have my issues with stopping frisk on similar grounds, but the idea that it was racist is well again I mean the the the claim the mayor explicitly makes is that it's justified because the crime rates But he does claim that people are being stopped for Fitting the description male minority He didn't say they're being stopped because they fit this description He says you could pass this description out because that's who fits the description You know black males or black and hispanic males 16 to 24 male That's who fits the description like almost all of the time in in new york I guess the question this would be then why I mean like we have to talk about why right? Isn't this a problem? Uh, yeah, so why why do black and hispanic males age 16 to 24 commit These uh disproportionate crimes why does it seem like the black community in america generally seems to commit more crime Why does it seem like cross culturally they commit more crime? Why do you think they come I'm just asking you I'm asking you why do why cross culturally in other nations? You don't know. I mean, I don't know why even ask this question. Why are we? Why are we even asking this question the country commit more crime? Where does crime come from? Why do people commit crime? Generally, it's a lot of factors. It's never just one thing. Okay, okay But there's but there's no it's actually not it's actually not crime with it's actually no you literally Bad position in in your life. You can usually track that pretty well and frankly over policing doesn't tend to help I guarantee the last thing any of us right now wants to happen Is for a cop to come in point his finger at one of us and send us to prison that would ruin all of our lives Even if it was for six months This kind of thing is obviously very prevalent in these in these black communities. There's a reason why There is more crime committed by these demographics It's due to the fact that most of these demographics are living in much lower income areas That's usually where you're going to see more crime. I think there's a route to that problem that we can talk about But I mean, I'm just getting some curious if you disagree with that as a as a broader statement in of itself No, I think you got it backwards for the most part. It's that uh crime Causes poverty rather than poverty. No, that's yeah for sure. That is that is Most definitely not sure I have a question if crime tracks so well with poverty then why in the 1950s Was the black homicide rate going down as compared to the 1960s if their incomes were going up I'm not familiar with that particular statistic But it doesn't really seem relevant to today's political space when you consider the fact that it's been about 70 years Maybe and it seems like our current state of racial And economic even economically everybody was was rising up in the 50s and 60s Everybody was doing better in the 50s and 60s because at that time Well, we're following like world war two. Europe had gotten fucking destroyed by world war two Not we didn't even get touched by that besides hawaii So our industry was able to take off in the the 50s 60s 70s and even into the 80s a little bit of the event That's when we start your whole point was poverty. Yeah with poverty causes crime Brings up a point and you have no You can't possibly think that that Also homicide is not like the type of crime that people commit because they're poor by the way And it is not the most common type of crime by far. Okay, so that one's not related to poverty Homicide there's a lot of different reasons why homicide can happen This is like trying to if you're if you want to talk about the type of crime that demographics can Commit you need to make an argument to me that like why would black people commit more homicide? What would argument yeah, I'm also very intrigued by this claim this claim that I'm curious. I'm curious. I want to know what you know, I'm asking you Okay, this is this is not going to answer. I don't hear about you. This is this is this is fun for everybody that I'm asking you Yeah, I want to hear I want to hear So I'm very curious about this claim that uh crime causes poverty more than the other way around I think That poverty not necessarily absolute poverty. I think especially if we're looking at international comparisons, but I think really You know poverty in the context of economic inequality poverty alongside riches. I think that does That does produce so that does produce crime I think that you know, I think that there are You know ethnic groups in the united states that have very low crime rates now But had much higher crime rates, you know when members of that group, you know were You know were likely to be very poor, you know because they're recent immigrants, etc And and I'm just very very intrigued, you know, I don't think by the way that you can you know that you can just say Hey, here's one particular time when the you know, the lines aren't going in the right direction So therefore we're going to throw out this generalization About one of these things tending to increase the other one over history But I'm most curious about this claim that crime causes poverty because it seems like Given that That black americans Have, you know continuously, you know had higher poverty rates Throughout american history since emancipation It seems very odd to think that that would be what was caused, you know, that that would be caused by Higher crime rates rather than thinking that the higher rate of poverty was causing the higher rate of crime I want to clarify something I said before by the way Little correcting some lefty misinformation I didn't when I said that it was poverty causing crime would say wealth inequality Yes, it is from like the impoverished side of that but wealth and inequality seems to contribute more to poverty than Or sorry to crime than just poverty um, yeah So, um, he said crime caused but I'm sure what he meant is that uh crime drives poverty and there's a number of ways that this can happen If you first of all you need a basis of rule of law in order to have a successful economic system So if you have constantly people stealing and violating other people's property rights That makes it far less secure to invest in those areas If you're in an area that is more likely to be vandalized by riots or more likely to be stolen from Insurance premiums are higher. This is why we constantly see in a lot of these like, you know, poor areas or ghetto stores What we end up seeing is higher prices But lower profit margins because the cost of doing business in these areas is significantly higher on top of that If you're deciding who you're going to lend to I know a lot of you want to talk about The effects of redlining because that's like a go-to topic But these are the exact same effects that you describe from redlining that are happening in these high crime areas Nobody wants to lend money for a far less secure investment If people are just going to steal and put this place out of business Or if they're going to riot over somebody dying and burn the place down This all ends up adding into the cost. There's a very good study about the effect of the la riots And essentially it took them about 10 years to get those neighborhoods back to where they were before the riots And that was back in like the 1990s. So but let's say 1992 I forgot exactly one Correct me nerds in the in the chat of the live stream To 2002 and that's just them getting back to 1992 levels in those areas So yeah, you're creating long-term consequences by allowing criminality to go on unchallenged in a lot of these areas So so if we have pretty straightforward stories in both directions, here's how crime can can cause you know poverty Here's you know, here's how you know, here's how Poverty can cause crime and we're comparing the explanation to see which one is simpler Which one makes more sense? I would say that one very relevant difference is that if you're saying hey How is it that you start out with a higher poverty rate? If you you know, if you think that that's explanatory primary Rather than the crime that's really easy to answer Right. Why is it that you'd have a higher poverty rate among people who? Up until less than 60 years ago We're you know, we're legally on the books discriminated against in numerous ways that kept people in very low wage jobs, etc Not a mystery poverty among everybody tends to people there is upward mobility But tends to perpetuate itself intergenerationally. That's very easy to understand Whereas if you think that the explanatory primary thing is the is the crime not the poverty Then I think you really do owe us an explanation. What is it that's causing this higher crime rate? Where does it come from? There's like a number of factors like a lot of it is down to the breakup of the family This is why I mean if you can look at all the data all the studies on the difference between two parent Married households versus unmarried households and the outcomes for those children. There's also another study I know you want to bring up about the About when they compare in the 99th percentile. I don't know if you want to bring that Oh, yeah, well, I mean, I already know what the retort's going to be But I mean if you want to look at arrest rates for example, uh, when based on the based on, uh, I believe the income of the parents or I can't remember if it was the wealth or the income of the parents For blacks and whites to match on that Uh, a black person whose parents wealth or income. I can't remember which uh is in the 99th percentile So the top 1% you'd have to it'd be the same as a white person whose parents income or wealth is at the 36th percentile now you could say well, that's because they're racist police and they arrest for no reason and things like that But that's the uh, that's the economic difference you'd have to see in order to have the arrest rates be the same Okay, so I think I heard an answer to my question About where it is that this higher crime rate would come from if not for extremely easy to understand higher poverty rates And that answer was, um, I don't know higher lower rates of marriage higher rates of uh, of you know Oh, okay, there might be a lot of reasons But that's that's the one that we heard and I think it's important to just take a minute on it Because I think any fair reading of the evidence on this would show That poverty causes, uh, you know People to have a higher, you know to have more trouble, you know keeping together relationships Much more than the other way around but they had higher rates of marriage when they were poorer than they do now Yeah, and you think there's no like there's no other social change in the united states that will be relevant to why that would be the case But that's Your point you brought up the point that it's like, oh, it's the economic hard times that result. It's a week People think they're doing better economically than they were back in the era. Jim crow Why do you think that uh, black the black community is starting to I guess forego Uh, more nuclear families. Why do you think it's starting to come on? How come you would you never get any explanations? I'm asking a question. I'm curious Do you have an explanation if I were to guess it would probably have something to do with the combination of culture and policing Yeah, I'd say that a lot of uh, black men being incarcerated probably has a lot to do with it And I think another part of it would be culture. Yeah, I think that there is sort of a culture in the black community mostly informed by Racism, you know the racism that the black community has had to face that has had these results And I think it's bad. I think it's a cyclical problem I think it's uh in hands-in-hand with both the um the over policing of poorer areas, which typically tend to be black The uh the school to prison pipeline, which we could get into You know the the tenancy. I mean obviously we know that police There was actually a really interesting Investigation that the doj did on the Ferguson the police department police department where they found that the the bar for even Investigating or for like stopping or checking like a We're giving a ticket even if you stop somebody gave them a ticket or a warning Um, if it was the cops discretion If the person who they pulled over was black the cop was Overwhelmingly more likely to give them a ticket instead of a warning simple stuff like that seems to you know kind of Contribute to these problems significantly if we want to talk about solutions What's the median age of white people versus black people in Ferguson? Probably like I'd say the average black person age would probably be like somewhere mid early 20s and older white people Probably usually and younger people tend to commit crime younger black people or older white people are more likely to commit crimes Probably younger people in general Overwhelmingly do you think that's a problem? Well, that's also a younger black we can talk about if you want to talk about the problem Our problems with men and especially young men Being incarcerated. That's a great problem to talk about our entire prison system is completely broken It is not one that is conducive to a a rehabilitative Lifestyle every single person I've ever talked to you as who has any experience with prison tells me that anyone who goes in there Like a petty minor league criminal comes out a bigger criminal than they were when they went in Nobody gets by in prison without committing more crime and getting involved with bad people This is just not the way that we want to dissuade demographics from you know engaging in criminality. It's only it's cyclical You talk about disparate treatment in Ferguson specifically in Ferguson as a significantly older white population This accounted for that on top of that. No, it isn't it's I've read the department of justice report I didn't just cite back toys from it. No, it's it accounts in the older population On top of that Ferguson is not an island There are they're an area that has one of the few grocery stores in the small town over there So people are driving in and getting pulled over So the idea that it's 67 black yet 85 of the population of the people getting tickets are black therefore races It accounts for population Again, you didn't listen to what he just said before Is is would be nice if they were an island in the middle of the sea, but people drive into Ferguson That don't live in Ferguson, especially since Ferguson has the grocery store that a lot of these little towns around it don't have Why wait, so what difference does that make to what I said driving in and getting pulled over Because you're accounting for the population of Ferguson and not the areas around that go into Ferguson Yes, but that does not change the fact of police Engage in what seems to be a racial profile. I would not expect I would not expect in a town of 67 black Population where the median age is 20 years younger than the white population On its own to have any equivalency and any type of ticketing or anything like that Let alone the fact that the people driving through Ferguson don't by law have to live in Ferguson All right, so the people who are coming into the area the demographics of the area tell you nothing about that You're talking about people being pulled over. So we got to talk about who's driving in this is east of st Louis you think people ever drive the 16 miles from east st. Louis to Ferguson And then get pulled over maybe that adds into who's getting pulled over Of course it adds into who's going through there, but it doesn't contribute to who police are choosing to pull over Obviously in total numbers Obviously if there are total a bit more traffic, obviously if we look at total numbers Black people are going to get pulled over more though per capita. It seems like they overwhelmingly selected black Per capita is accounting for the population in Ferguson. You're not accounting per capita of those that were pulled over For those that were on the road that the police stopped. Yeah, not only they commit more crimes What do you mean it's called? Yeah, dude, it's uh, no it's off. Oh Is it dead the battery might have died because it was on earlier. I know for a fact it was on there Do you want to switch it out or I can take mine and like put it right here for Well, I was gonna ask sander a question and in a case you want me to do that while we're doing this okay, so I just wanted to be clear because I haven't seen this data that that youtube both have so This You know you said this is per capita of people who are pulled over So in other words that part of what this is saying Even if it could be the case that there's an innocent reason why more black people than white people would be pulled over You're saying that out of people who are pulled over White people who are pulled over in ferguson are less likely to get tickets than black people who are pulled over there Is that correct? I'm really underselling how damning the doj investigation was they found some really fucked up shit I can't list everything right now, though. I highly recommend checking it out Just look up doj ferguson police department investigation It should be like first or second thing that comes up the official like page should be pretty high up on the list And they found a lot of really interesting stuff one of them was that obviously the bar for pulling over A a black driver was significantly lower than the bar to pull over a white driver They also found that like police tend to if it was up to their own discretion They typically would give more tickets to black people and more warnings to white people Even when if tickets were given like after through the legal process like based on evidence and whatnot like looking at footage Even though when you account for that overwhelmingly white people got Got stuck with tickets more because they were actually committing the crime More and getting caught by it through our legal processes more I want to get back to that 100 million Stop study that you got up. Well, I did want to go ahead. Go ahead. I don't know how the audience coming Yeah, so like I said the the reason I bring up the data of who's being pulled over versus population is because in 1999 there was a department of justice investigation into the new jersey state troopers Which was incited by an incident of alleged police brutality now unlike the michael brown shooting Which was a slam dunk 100 justified Give that officer a gold star because michael brown was proven to be the aggressor in that situation by all the forensic evidence Don't at me This one was a little more questionable So one of the ways that they designed this study because they were worried about exactly what i'm talking about the about the drivers on the road Not necessarily matching the demographics of the people who lived in the area was this so they in two different ways They conducted surveys at toll booths in one and in another they took high resolution photos of every driver On the road to see who was being pulled over and what they found out was that black people Statistically committed more traffic violations in certain zones that they were looking at and they were not being targeted Based on their race and in fact the biggest predictor of whether or not you were going to get pulled over despite the fact that the numbers were Disproportionate to population was whether you were actually committing a traffic offense Now after this study was set to be published which by law under the clinton administration It was supposed to be published the bush administrations The oj didn't want to release it because they thought it was controversial because they were already Instituting reforms against the new jersey police because they had already been declared to be racist Hilariously the new jersey st. Troopers said based on their data being confronted by the doj before the study was concluded That i guess we probably were racially targeting them based on the speeding ticket data It turned out to not be the case because you have to do studies like this where you capture who's on the road Not just who's being pulled over I was like four years old when during the clinton administration, so i'll leave that one to ben verges Yeah, i was actually hoping uh to uh to go back to the earlier claim that uh that if That if the crime comes before the poverty that you know So we need to look for some alternate thing at the end of this chain of causation to uh to start the other the higher Crime rate What is it and uh i heard there were numerous things but the only specific thing i heard was about marriage rates And uh and what i wanted to know is if it was the case That it was already true That there was a difference in white and black crime rates at a time where there was much less of a difference In white and black marriage rates Yeah, i'd prefer if we go back to what he just brought up so you guys could address that So to this to this to this study that i know that's like i heard of the new jersey turnpike study I'm not familiar with the new jersey turnpike study. No, so i mean i'm not gonna like i i have nothing to say about this But they but like i think that this is a little bit more relevant to the sort of bigger picture of what we're talking about That this particular study So there's a there's a multitude of different things that can drive crime and like desperation like when you're in desperate traits of poverty Has been one but as james q wilson who has written a lot on criminal justice has outlined The idea that we're committing crime to meet our basic needs like you know back in the day when we're like Versus star like starving It really kind of changed in like the 20th century because we had abundance due to the industrial revolution so like You can say poverty like correlates with crime and like i said i like to say that it drives crime because i'm sorry crime Drives poverty because it's not the only cause of it But um, it's not necessarily like i can see there are instances obviously where desperation is created By poverty and that can drive crime the other way that is possible But but but that's not what either of us were talking about wait. Can i ask a question for do you think um I mean obviously we see that there's a very disproportionate amount of crime and poverty Uh for the black community here in america. Do you think the black community was impoverished first or committing crime first here in america? They were poor, but they were they're northern blacks before the end of slavery because you know We're gonna talk about slavery at some point. Uh, we're did have higher homicide rates than northern whites even then So I and they're also much higher poverty rates even that but like I every time i get into a criminal justice debate We always get bogged down on the crime poverty thing So like I would like to concede Poverty as the cause of crime to you guys just just for the purpose of going forward and ask you and well You're wrong, but I don't know. I mean clearly. We're right because you've not been able to provide any sort of cultured explanation And you've said a bunch of you said a bunch of things that are entirely consistent with the common sensical extremely well established correlation between But Well, the reason the reason Demographics in poverty in similar poverty don't commit crimes at the same rates But the reason I want to move on from that is because Even if we accept the premise that poverty is the cause of crime The idea that you address crime by addressing poverty is what's called the underlying cause fallacy There's nothing to say that that is the most efficient way to deal with this dramatically Different homicide rates if you can incarcerate and deter people from committing these homicides On the policing level, then you don't have to like do all these abstract wealthy redistributions one day One day we're gonna one day. We're gonna one day. We're gonna arrest poverty and you know set all these Aladdin's who are just The world where people who want to do something about poverty in order to do something about crime We arrest poverty or you think it's super abstract But yeah, I understand a little bit in the in the hopes that that will have some like trickle down effect on crime I think that we are You know, I think that there are a fair amount of things that I think But I think I think there's evidence that that higher wages You know when wages are increased that that that lowers recidivism rate even for people who've already committed crimes I think that the that there are things like establishing, you know preschool programs and after school programs That seem to have a lower effect. I think even that even expanding access to health care seems to do a lower crime rate And actually the carceral solution does not seem to have worked out that well There's really not a lot of evidence that we're getting much banged for a buck in terms of the crime rate from these Ridiculous prison sentences sure. I'm not I'm not even disputing that poverty has an effect on crime That's just I don't think it's the the most important factor, but I think we're also getting away But hold up. I want to ask one question. Okay, so Do you so what your basic argument is that People in poverty are more prone to crime, right? And therefore we should have different types of interventions not related to the criminal justice system, right? To in order to deal with the poverty there are underlying issue or whatever Okay And that we're like over-policing the the poor and all that, okay In general, which I think basically in the 1970s rather than expanding great society, you know go further in the direction of social democracy I think there was essentially a political decision that it would be both politically and literally cheaper to just focus to just amp up police aid You know they will try more militarized police aid and you know carceral, you know Expanding the carceral state and there really what we should be talking about If reverse is not a completely agree with what xander said at the beginning about what how while I do think that You know, they've written that you know racial disparities in various aspects of the criminal justice system Are a result of America's bad racial history And I you know, and I do think that some of you know, you know, like the uh, like traffic stop disparities narrow It is it gets darker is pretty hard to explain under the racial prejudice But I also don't think that's the most important part of the problem I think that they I think if we had Underclass of people living in poor neighborhoods being subject to more militarized policing having worse outcomes in every way Having higher crime rates and they're exactly demographically correct proportions of them who are black and white I don't think that would be justice I think that we need to do the kinds of things and I was talking about earlier to help everyone who's in that situation I got some suggestions there by the way first one complete federal legalization of marijuana First one would absolutely help everybody I've gone gone to this rant a million times and I'll go on it again Everybody is hurt by marijuana not being federally legalized. Okay Every one of you is harmed by this. Okay, especially the black community We all know the black community has been over, you know, police for possession of marijuana for a very long time But it's true Even though black people don't use marijuana to higher rate than white people do I assure you I smoke more weed than anybody Okay, I love it Yeah, and I think federally legalizing that would be a big deal right now If you are an aspiring black, uh dispensary owner, uh, even in like california or colorado places where it's legal You can't get a loan from a bank until marijuana is federally legalized So you have to already have the capital to put down the investment to start that dispensary because you can't go to a bank Very simple things like that that literally help everybody would it would be great I mean even prison reform would be massive. There are white people in prison There are tons of people in prison right now that aren't just black that would absolutely benefit. What do you mean by prison reform? okay, so I am super duper interested in prisons, especially lately. I've been obsessed with with just watching anything prison related I've been binge watching 60 days in I've been doing research on prisons I've been listening to youtubers who tell stories about their time in prison and it seems like overwhelmingly Our prison system is taking in Especially if we're talking low mid or low medium and like prison camps and stuff like that even Oh, you just want it to be like more We're talking. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like I don't want I don't want to go on a general level So peeking in like petty criminals and pumping out much I got it. I got it make make black people drug dealers again. And uh, what you call it make prisons nicer. Got it So the point the point that I was trying to make Do you think there's no important difference between the others between between the dispensary She's joking. Just let's move on. So the point that I was trying to make about like saying that poverty It makes people so much more prone to crime Therefore we should go easier on these poor criminals. It doesn't make any sense If you have a factor that makes you more prone to crime Then we should treat you harsher not not less are so like if Young men commit way more sexual assaults than women because young men of like their brains aren't fully developed They have like sexual desires and all that then 55 year old women That doesn't mean we should give young men who commit sexual assault slap on the wrist We have to counterbalance Factors that make it more likely for you to commit crime This is why back in the day when people were more desperate straights and they had to steal literally to survive Not this fake steel to survive where you're stealing flat screen TVs in order to defeat your family People would cut off your hand. I don't know who you responded to You need stronger and certainly going to be stronger AOC for criminality says stuff like you need stronger disincentives for criminality If you're saying that something is a strong thing That makes you compelled to commit crime not weaker And just hold on one more because I haven't talked a lot But uh in response to your thing about like Poverty and wealth and all that stuff causing crime In recent years, we've seen the bottom 50 percent gain in wealth You know disproportionately compared to the the the top 1 percent like percentage wise for the amount of wealth that they have They've grown considerably. I think in the last uh in the last year it went up by like 74 percent, which is pretty significant But the crime rates have been going up in the last few years So how do you explain that economic inequality has also been going up or going down though? Hasn't it or going up? Yeah economic inequality has gone up, right? Are we more unequal now than in 1970? Are we more unequal economically than we are in 1970? Absolutely How about 1980? I wasn't around back then frankly The crime rates were higher by the way One thing one thing that I will point out that I think is worth acknowledging Is that yes people commit crimes for different reasons? Obviously like if we're talking rape for example rape is not a crime that people commit because they're poor Rape is not a crime But like this isn't one of those crimes that generally seems to correlate with poverty because it seems like people do it for other reasons Then oh, I need money or oh, I'm in a bad place, right? But you could say homicides a good example Homicide can be done out of a crime of passion. It can also be gang violence You think most of the homicides are crimes of passion though. I'm talking about gang violence It can be but it can also be gang violence We need to look at why people commit certain crimes and tailor our solutions to those problems Specifically, I don't think that just tackling poverty will deal with crime Well, would we see a massive decrease in crime if there was no more poverty anymore? Almost certainly I'd be so surprised to see a world where there was no economic inequality in it Well, there'd always be but if there was much less economic inequality in America People were way more well off and we didn't see a drop in crime when you just flip poverty and economic inequality Well, actually Consistently throughout this debate both of us have said that it's not absolute in poverty It's the combination of poverty and nearby wealth that that's the that like in other words It's poverty is the downside of economic inequality. That's the line Both of us are taking consistently throughout the debate Those living in poverty are more likely to commit crime when in an area that has a lot of wealth Inequality doesn't seem to go up when like you're saying poverty is caused by income inequality Poverty is the natural state of man. If you want to talk about wiping out poverty. We did that That's why poor people in this country are wrinkling poor people have to cause a lot What uh, he was saying something so I stopped talking poverty is the natural state of man. Is that what I just said? Yeah, okay What do you disagree with that? I don't I don't I don't I don't think there's when we were hunter-gatherers Also trillionaires That that might be the biggest natural state of man in the history of goalposts the head of uh, so The uh, no poverty is not the natural state of man Of course it is when you're when you're born you don't have wealth, right? Like you don't have anything you have to actually do things in order to You know require wealth. Wait, where are you pointing to like we don't we don't have to get into this Naturally speaking I think I think the fact that you guys want these views on poverty is not going to be a relevant to the larger subject Like a like a naturalism or like a no, I said poverty is the natural state of man, which is true And then are you kidding? How is that possible? Like hunter-gatherers for a billion if you want to say, you know, that babies are inherently impoverished It's not about babies. It's like humanity. You just said when you're born you're poverty, right? That's what you just said. I mean when you're born like you don't actually like you don't own anything Yeah, but that doesn't I think that back in the day we didn't have like it it takes human action You have to do things to build infrastructure and society Yes, given that you have infrastructure and of course, you know, of course when you're born You know and for a long time thereafter, you know, you don't have a direct position in the economic structure You have immediate one three parents But they have a but the more about you know, the more important point is given that we have that infrastructure How wealth is distributed has nothing to do with nature. That's about how societies are set up Typically when we're considering how people are going to behave in society You want to account for the current level of you know, quality of life that we currently have in our society, right? So he said he said poverty is the natural outcome of income in the equality You you did one of you said no, no, neither of us said anything close to that No, I said no crime I said no, no the claim that you keep getting confused about is that it's not absolute poverty that That drives crime. It's the combination of poverty with nearby wealth that seems to be what drives crime So if we can get back to that 100 million Study that you were referencing Can you go into a little more detail about that because you talked about the the night and the day and how that Explains things Basically, there was a it was a giant study done on a hundred million traffic stops that occurred Here in the u.s. And basically they found that police were I can I can list all the things they ended up finding in the study They ended up finding that um despite black people getting stopped more often and for obviously in the same case for the Previous study I mentioned the bar being lower For pulling over and stopping a black driver. They still found that white people Typically were the ones that um that were actually breaking law more for every stop if you count it per stop and just overall it obviously there was the stops of black drivers Decreased at night when it's harder to differentiate the race of the person who's driving and it seems to Solely be based on is this person breaking traffic laws or does this person seem to have some amount of The racial gap and and uh in people being pulled over decreased So in this in this daytime nighttime thing that's a hundred million stops that were that were uh measured there Not during the day in the night, but after nightfall. It seems like cops pulled over less black people Not just just just as a friendly amendment because I think this is what you mean and the difference matters, right What you're saying is you know the the absolute numbers aren't the point What you're saying is that the racial disparity stops narrowed after after dark I'm unaware of the exact methodology of that study. I don't know if they Have the veil of darkness test is done or performed the veil of darkness from my understanding It's simply you it's just dark out. You can't really see their race. What are the specifications? so So the veil of darkness test the way it is by the way The the data set the data set was originally like 255 million or so They reduced it down because some of the data sets don't have like race or there's some inconsistencies there They reduced it down to about 95 million when they apply the veil of darkness test Which is to say like okay We're trying to take similar periods of the day But different like the difference is you know how like the summertime versus winter time like it might be white Out versus dark out so they try to account for time of day by doing that So you have summertime and I guess winter time and that's about a hundred thousand stops that they did And the difference that they found there as far as the The difference between I guess blacks and whites being stopped Yeah, blacks being stopped in the daytime versus the nighttime. Do you know what the percentage difference was there? If I remember correctly, it was like somewhere between 8 to 12. It's been a while since I read this one It's like 8 percent or something like that. Yeah, it's pretty significant Well, hold on You're assuming like everything else is totally equal the veil of darkness test doesn't make absolutely everything equal So for example in the daytime There's a lot more things you can identify that you might not be able to identify the other than race, right? So like you might have a vehicle description that you can't see as well in the nighttime Even, you know, the season the seasonality matters for example, you know, there's more Violent crime and homicides that are committed during the summertime But in the winter yeah, but in the wintertime like listen black people don't like the cold Everybody knows this black people tell you this black people don't like the cold and uh It doesn't take all that into account. Could that make up for the 8 percent difference? I don't know So to take me take me through the chamber for reasoning going from black people don't like the cold To this is an alternative So the the entire veil of darkness ran from 7 p.m To 7 15 and what they used was daylight savings And they did this to control for like people coming home from work and all that which is smart Right because it changes to the nighttime at different times and it's like it started around 7 I think the furthest they went was maybe 745 And so first of all they found that like The that this on its own was not enough to like have significant differences between the race If you actually read the abstract of the study, but secondly It assumes that all the variables in the summer are the same as all the variables in the winter So when he said black people don't like the cold the cold which is a quote from my last debate on this What he was saying is that like you're out doing different things in the summer There's differences in behavior and differences in cultural behavior depending on the weather Like cannot also happen among other factors like if you're pulling over people for expired registration You might be able to see that better in the daytime than in the nighttime in the veil of darkness All they're looking at is race and in these hundred thousand stops is the time of day There's also like other studies that have tried to factor in Whiting with different results that could also play into it Among many other factors that could lead to this difference of what is it like 8% It was it was it's somewhere from 8 to 12 It's been a few days since I read it, but I remember those being the numbers roughly I do want to point out though that I think that a better Argument probably would have been that well. I mean daylight sometimes, you know It may be past 8 p.m. But it's still light outs The cop probably would have been able to tell the race that that would have been a better That would have been an untrue argument because the whole reason they use that time is to account for daylight saving times They're comparing the summer time stops Which would be in the day to the winter time stops And they're saying that means that the same people are on the road because it's the same time Clarifying that in the study Yeah, literally seven. That's the veil of darkness. It was from 7 p.m. To 7 15 It's in military time I didn't know if they did it like during different They say it's about the clocks springing forward like they don't have to say it's about the seasons for you to know that the clocks Take your word on that one, but that's I don't remember reading that You don't have to take my word on it. You just have to know what the existence of daylight savings time is Does that I am curious though How much of a difference does that make because you did because as you said It still seems like there's an 8 to 12 percent difference, you know When the veil of darkness is there when it seems like there's less likely Of a chance for the cop to be able to tell the race the person is driving You said that could be explained by like maybe there's stuff the cop can't notice when it's dark out Like on the car or something maybe the the make and model, you know a description anything like that For someone they're looking for but that same study Doesn't it also account for Who was actually like giving a ticket or like no actually did something like wouldn't that be accounted for? So there's there's different aspects of it because what what ended up happening was they analyze a bunch of different traffic stops And a bunch of different ways what you're doing is combining separate analyses And and they weren't separate in the study So they do have separate data when they pull people over and that includes more of the stops Not just the veil of darkness and that's all about how often they request searches and and all that That's separate from the veil of darkness the veil of darkness was trying to see if the initial reason for the stop Was the pullover so whatever happens after the stop is not relevant to that portion because they're trying to identify racial discrimination I will say the 100 million Study that that we're talking about the 100 million stop study doesn't really linger on the veil of darkness aspect that long when you read through it It's not a very particularly important part of it I think that if you are able to prove that at a significant rate Yes cops are pulling black people over Significantly more often at night and that seems to be what the data was just on a surface level to be fair So it's understandable why that's out there and why people are always talking about it Doesn't that not still indicate to you that there's maybe a problem there It's a possibility But like I said there could be other factors and this the Data Seems like and I didn't and you guys wrote you guys wrote up the veil of darkness and the 100 million Studies so you could say that's not a relevant portion of it. I said you guys Well, no, he was talking about the daytime versus night time. Yeah, that's the veil of dark. Yeah, that which is called the veil of darkness Which is why we're discussing it and also if we're going to pretend like oh eight percent is super significant We can use other numbers to show like oh if you want to show that white people are actually more You know disproportionately Killed by police or something like that, you know based on their behavior Then you know you could pull up the numbers of uh, you know, okay, what percentage of uh Of police killings or shootings that then lead to death You know police killing people like what percentage of that is white people versus black people compared to the people that actually kill police officers Because it's actually very different like white people are killed much higher than their proportion of killing police officers Black people for example, and it's much higher than eight percent of the difference Sure, how does that Change anything though If black people have a higher chance of committing violence or killing a cop How does that change the broader trend of police over policing black neighborhoods? Is that because the cops are afraid that the black people are going to kill them We're not talking about over policing black neighborhoods in this example You know, is it not a big conversation in this country that cops are killing black people? How do people come into contact with the police? Is it not is it not a discussion that black people like is it not a concern? Is not a concern of yours that black people are being disproportionately killed by police. Yeah, okay, so I don't know what you're not getting here I don't think that what you brought up is an argument against the overall point of the police or the I should say The system of incarceration and policing So are you saying there is systemic racism in policing against white people because this is disparity exists? so so one problem with using Black people killing cops at higher rates than white people to say That actually given that the the disparities in who's killed by cops are reasonable if anything That you know that white that like white people are being killed by cops, you know More than the rate of you know killing black people. So it's all reasonable. Is that actually If you if you look specifically at Killings of unarmed people the racial the racial disparities actually bigger for unarmed people being shot by the cops Than for everybody being shot by the cops in general And presumably percentage-wise not compared to the proportion at which they kill police officers And it also depends on that compared to the proportion at which unarmed black people kill police officers I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure a hundred percent of people who kill police Hold on our arms So if we look if it's the case that the disparity in people being killed by cops based on race Is actually wider Which it is by a lot Uh for unarmed people being killed by the cops, but it's not Not that it doesn't it doesn't You're but but but but the but killings police officers is not relevant if we're talking about unarmed people First of all that's not true number one number two If you're talking about the disparities of unarmed black people or unarmed white people Of course the percentages are going to be outrageous because we're talking like eight people a year So obviously that's going to be true number two Unarmed means in a car driving at an officer because there's a legitimate purpose for you to have a car Unarmed means michael brown actively trying to arm himself with darin wilson's gun When he stuck his hand and got so close according to the department of justice report To the gun that he was burned by the muzzle flash when wilson fired upon him unarmed means charging at an officer for our gun Those are all counted in those statistics. So the idea that you don't pose a threat because you're unarmed is ridiculous What would you say that you're significantly less likely to pose a threat? Not if you're actively trying to arm yourself But that's like you're switching the question. Yeah, the question is in general. Yeah in general But the people who typically get shot are not the ones that are just unarmed walking down the street Do you think that unarmed people who were shot by cops were less likely to pose a danger to the cops? It doesn't matter. Is it justified or not? It is justified What is justified all if someone's reaching for your gun? They are currently unarmed But they will be armed if you let them grab your gun. That's not at all the question. The question was That's a very famous Yes, and I'm not saying that there are no examples like that what I asked was Do you think that unarmed people shot by cops are less likely to have post-angers to think of those cops Then arms people who are shot by cops Okay, but if you if you accept that Then you can't say black people shooting white, you know shooting cops at a higher rate than uh, than white people It's sufficient to account for why not? Well, they don't just kill them. They don't just kill them Because because because because you acknowledge that the difference is greater Among people who are less likely it depends on what you do just writing cops than uh, than people other people who are No, it doesn't because look just because you're less likely doesn't mean it's it doesn't happen Sure, but that's what the example that I'm doing is examples where they did kill them They could have been unarmed in what like in the beginning Yeah, they could have been unarmed at the beginning and then they got armed and then they killed them Also A guy with a guy with a gun in his holster that's complying with an officer Is the less dangerous than a guy charging an officer and going for his gun Even if we arbitrarily categorize them as unarmed Sure, I I'll say one last thing. Um, I think I missed it a pretty simple point, but okay I I think you are I feel like what I have to say I feel like what I have to say will actually bridge a gap between um, both sides here So I'll play a little bit of devil's advocate, but I am still on the side of ben burgess and I'll explain why in a moment Obviously This became really relevant during the cow written house drama If you are armed if you're holding a firearm in your hand and somebody who is unarmed is trying to grab that firearm from you That is more or less as far as you're aware or you are concerned an act of deadly force being done upon you Okay, there is no good reason why someone should be trying to disarm you okay It's not a good look if you're in a position like that advocate like you actually disagree with that or Well, I mean, I'm explaining the position of somebody to make a point Why a cop may do you agree with this shoot? Yeah, I'm going to explain why now so However, while I do think that's a reasonable response to have for the average person and our cops are human beings I do think that we sort of agree that we should probably hold our police to a little bit of a higher standard Than your average human being who's scared to their life now Obviously cops aren't robo cop. They're human. They have emotions and everything too, but I do think that um, What brenner just is saying here that You're probably going should feel a bit less threatened by somebody if they are unarmed like for example I know this is a very Individual anecdote, but it's pretty funny and it just happened and I kind of just want to laugh about it There was a video that came out recently of some cops approaching the front of a store And there was a completely unarmed guy just walking out of it And the cops try to let the police dog loosen this guy to attack them And the dog is just like oh, he's not a threat and just runs off towards another person to like And they're like no no come back try to get them and the cops are trying to get the dog to attack this dude And the dude's like what's going on? What are you doing? Um, I don't know. It just it seems like sometimes our police get a little bit too. Um a little bit too jumpy You know, maybe that's just something that we could we could solve with better America where everyone's like Yeah, there's more of a That's what that's why i'm playing doubles advocate What's the higher standard for a cop in the same situation as call written house? Somebody's grabbing for your gun. Are they getting so close that they're about to grab it Generally, we'd accept that at a protest like that the police should probably be in a line and they should have Some level of cooperation and some level of backup plan that doesn't involve firing shots into the crowd Okay, so if they're gonna grab your gun and bring out some fire I mean if we're talking about cops and and like I said, what's the difference like a proper police Engagement with you're just chasing If there was a cop you said we call written house like what would be the higher standard that you would have The higher standard you would hold police to it would be there'd be a line of police like they Okay, let's say we've got a cop then and somebody reaches up and tries to grab the gun in that scenario Then it would probably be completely fine to fire upon that person because you're an individual person Yeah, you've been on he's actively trying to arm itself, but he's Nobody said that there are no circumstances under which it's ever justifiable to shoot an unarmed person The point was a lot of people if you're if you are well somebody here said it They are the point was that as you agreed unarmed people Generally even unarmed people shot by cops are more likely to be unjustified shootings are more likely to be people Who weren't a threat to that cop at the time they were shot and the racial disparity there is greater I don't think the idea that Black people statistically being a greater threat to cops than white people can't explain the gray racial I agree that Okay, I agree that of like the eight unarmed black people that are shot by the police a year And the two of them that are actually unarmed that's like a 25 chance that those will be unjustified Perfect It has a tendency to kind of like fall over I guess You mean forward or like the end of the table over now or over now? Yeah Do you want us all four of us do that? Okay All right So for ben but I'd like to have everybody's input or if you want to give it I'm sorry For ben but for for all of you. I'd love to hear your input. So I was thinking About the wealth inequality or poverty causing crime and it made me think Do you think that? It could be a simply a level of happiness or unhappiness or depression With poverty being a big factor That could lead you to a path of doing something you might not otherwise do something illegal you get yourself in trouble Yeah, I think there are a lot of pathways between between poverty and remember we're talking specifically about Yeah, I think I think there are a lot of I think there are a lot of causal paths that can lead for the economic conditions to to hire to higher crime rates And and I certainly think that the kind of thing that you're talking about, you know can can be one of them I think that you know, I think that just you know, just kind of giving up on on success, you know through, you know through Legal through legal means and you know and thinking that you know thinking that your best shot at sort of changing your class position Which is not the same as stealing a loaf of bread to stay alive Whatever, but like that your best shot of overall upward mobility through society is through Is through something like you know dealing drugs is through, you know is through involvement in gangs, etc I think that can be that can definitely be be one path From from from one to the other. I think the kind of depression things like that you're talking about I think that can absolutely be a factor in it But in general this this these two things do You know do seem to go together not a hundred percent of all the time you can have confounding factors, but they do seem to go together and It does seem pretty straightforward Why you'd start out with a higher poverty rate Among black people the white people and it seems really straightforward Why you'd start out with like a coincidentally higher Higher crime rate, especially since I never quite got this answered earlier But I think it was acknowledged all around that at times when you know black black marriage rates and white marriage rates were much less Different than they are now you still had a disparity in crime because you still had a disparity in poverty I guess what I'm what I'm trying to get at is what is there in between? I'm impoverished and then I went and committed a crime. What is it? It's it's not oh I'm gonna go commit this crime because I'm I'm poor But I'm poor and then this causes me to feel or act this way and then I go commit a crime I'm asking you honestly like I don't I don't know the answer. I'd love to hear you The individual anecdotes because that's more or less what you're asking for is like what would apply to a lot of people And I know that in a lot of cases like if we're talking about Crime among black young men in a lot of communities Then it would a lot of it could literally just be attributed to peer pressure for example and fear Oh, maybe even feeling like you're isolated and there's no point anymore If you're like a young black man from a really shitty neighborhood with a really shitty upbringing It is not very hard to get from that position to what's even the fucking point? Why should I even try anymore? And obviously that's not the type of behavior and the type of thinking we should be applauding Or the type of thinking that we should be saying is good, but it's an understandable human reaction to a certain situation Yeah, I mean when you have no expectations for somebody I mean look at I mean it's crime is glorified in you know hip-hop culture for example I mean you have songs from yg like we talk about asian hate right? A lot of this is perpetrated by you know young black males And they specifically target asians and you know You have a song by yg called meet the flakas and what's the first line of that song? It says First find a house and scope it out find a chinese neighborhood because they don't believe in bank accounts like they glorify this It's literally an instruction manual on how to you know rob this particular community And it's something that a lot of these young people listen to and they think it's cool and that's that's a big factor too Yeah, there's there's a number of pressures that that can lead people to commit crime I think income inequality is convenient for their like political agenda to be their cause But we saw crime go down like in the great recession when income inequality went up And everybody who thought poverty was the cause or or income inequality was surprised by the data But crime actually fell during the great recession We've seen periods of increased poverty where we've seen crime drop We've seen periods of increased wealth where we've seen crime go up We've seen income inequality grow long term over time and we are nowhere near We're not like the peak income inequality that we've been at throughout our history But we're nowhere near peak crime in this country the 80s and 90s were significantly worse Some places are having 80s and 90s levels due to the fact that there's a pullback of the police We're de-emphasizing law enforcement. We're catering to the criminals We're doing all these different things that pull we're pulling back on a lot of strategies that have worked because We haven't lived in like crime grid in america that people in the 80s and 90s have gone And lived in for a while. So we're getting weak on it That's what all this pushback on joe biden about the crime bill is the crime bill There's a reason the democratic party was pushing it because crime was way worse in this country We've like lost the memory for that now. We're getting weak on crime and we're seeing the crime come back Was the crime bill not like very popular though? It was extremely popular. That's right. It was awesome. It was good Everybody loved it, but that's like saying like I mean everybody supported it though. I know that's what works No, no, I'm saying I'm saying they're everybody supported it But they attack now because they attack biden now for it because crime went down for a while People forgot about how bad crime was and what we need to do to address it and you know, that's why I'm saying I'm saying the attack on joe biden. That's why I don't know all these tough on crime policies are coming back. So I don't think you could blame Uh upticks and crime in the last couple years on the you know pull back of you know Pull back of policing or anything like that. No, it's the Ferguson. I don't I don't okay You you I don't think most of these I don't think most of the things that people are pointing to when they talk about that We're implemented in any kind of way. No, no, no go go look in new york city where I live go look at When they remove the anti crime unit they undercover unit of nypd officers specifically designed to go after shootings Go look at shootings from the next day after they announced the disassembly of that of that unit They've risen to 1990s levels in new york city You can draw a direct direct line from certain policies that worked that were gotten rid of Due to this defund the police movement. Yeah There was already an uptick in violent crime in the summer 2020 when you had A less than a dozen Uh law enforcement agencies out of 180,000 in the country had had their budgets cut. That's called the Ferguson effect It hadn't even got into effect. It's called the fergans Ferguson. Well, they pulled that unit off right away What the Ferguson effect is uh that cops are going to be you know The cops are going to be less likely to you know to use to use force So they're less likely to pull people over because they're afraid of being accused of these things. That's what you're talking about Yeah, that's definitely the big part. Yeah, okay. I'm I'm also Skeptical about you know about how widespread that is I mean it's been showed in data. Well, okay. I think that's I think that's severely in dispute, but all right Happens every time these types of uh, you know racial incidents happen. You see an uptick in crime afterwards I mean, it's it's very there's a pattern to this To be fair if I wanted to commit a certain type of crime and then they publicly announced that A particular division was about to get shut down that set that goes after that crime the next day I would the next day go do that thing if that was something that I was playing Because I don't know if the yeah, I mean but at the same time designed to deter illegal carrying of guns is disbanded and you see Increases in shootings by people carrying illegal guns within the literally like from the same month to month In the first half of the month if they just disbanded on the 15th shootings are normal And then after they disbanded shootings go crazy then yeah, that's that's that's a that's a strong correlation as the data nerds would say I do agree that there is a problem with police funding though Like for example, I I know that a lot of conservatives have complained about this But my understanding of the reason for it is uh, actually something they agree with. Um, I believe san francisco Stopped like enforcing petty like petty theft Like they stop acting on like calls for petty theft or Because the da especially won't even prosecute it because he's a communist mostly because well no It's because it takes too much resources No, because he's literally said he will not chart like he doesn't believe in charging these things These are the reason why the police department specifically is no longer doing is because It is just too much resources the police department doesn't have well They don't they don't even happen in san francisco officers There's short 400 officers and the mayor of san francisco Cut 120 million out of the budget. Now she's gonna refund the police. That was a disaster Thank you guys you all were very strong tonight. This is for nuance bro and shan Um, many believe that much of the racial disparities occurred not on the streets But in the criminal justice system where minorities are when conditions are controlled Sentenced much harsher than whites. Do do you believe that there's any merit to these beliefs? So there's a study I know there's a one of a federal like doing the the federal prisons and things like that where they showed the disparity was something When they when they tried to control everything it was about nine percent, which you know, that that's a disparity. That's pretty bad You know, I think there are other factors that play into that You know that you can't always control for but you know, if you really want to talk about Here's the thing we always have rallies and protests and discussions on this issue of You know racism and the criminal justice system like what about sexism in the criminal justice system? The difference is 63 percent when you control for all those factors You know in the federal system like the same authors of those studies They looked at uh, you know sex and the difference is there and it's 63 percent Why do we not have riots in the streets protests? You know just panels discussing this all the time We don't because you know people they don't actually care I'd like to mention I did bring up that men are over incarcerated earlier I'd like yeah, but it's compared to women. We need to throw women behind bars More women in prison Yeah, I I know but um, I'm getting away too long what I would also um What I'll say is the disparities are in the streets and this is no matter how you measure it A lot of people like to talk about arresting bias But we don't really measure crime in arrest we measure it in reports Reports are when people on a lot of times if it's black people the victims are black Call in and report what happened to them now. There's also a such thing called reporting bias So when in order to get around reporting bias We have a thing called the national crime victimization survey where we send it out every year to about 174 thousand households And we ask people for all crimes except for murder if they've been victimized for crimes And murder should be obvious because murder people don't fill a survey Yeah, so when they identified their perpetrators in these national crime victimization surveys, which by the way This is how we get data on sexual assault Which is one of the most underreported crimes and when you see in the fbi data sets It will say that it's the ucr supplemented with the ncbs And when they identify their perpetrators these victims on their own they identify disproportionately black perpetrators So it's every single spot in our criminal justice system in our data collection. We see these disparities So we shouldn't be surprised to see these disparities in our prisons at the end point So um recently I was seeing a compilation of data put together from lexus nexus looking at newspaper headlines Just I think throughout the last 40 years and it was showing how in 2011 there is a parabolic trend for terms related to racism racial inequality And uh that coincides with the occupy wall street movement And so my question is do you think the prevalence and the intensity in which Conversations nowadays in regards to racial disparity are organic in nature And um, what can we do to ensure that they are organic and we Have these conversations for the right reasons instead of you know being poked and prodded to have these reasons to become a little more combative towards Yeah, great great question. Um, you know the attitude, you know You used to hear this all the time where they would talk about well, you know Black crime is actually disproportionately highlighted in the media You know people would actually get angry at the show cops for example for showing like too many like I think michael more in one of his movies went up to them and he was like Why do you show so many black people? Why don't you show like white collar crime? And you know, if you actually look Ben Shapiro had a book Uh, I forget exactly what do you remember something with the media something like hollywood or whatever But he went and interviewed these guys and they actually admitted. Oh We actually try to show less of the black crime because like, you know, they they're You know, they're all democrats and something like they don't want they don't want to show as much black crime because it looks bad because it would just be like way more, uh, you know instances and You know, you're seeing this in you know going back to the asian hate example Uh, they're not putting the race of the suspects a lot of times in these articles because they're worried about Creating the they don't want the public to see how disproportionate it is that black people are committing these crimes against asians Even in san francisco, um, you know, they used to publish the mug shots of people that they arrested all the time They used to do this for the the bart system as well the bay area rapid transit They don't do that anymore in the last three years or so. They stopped doing it for this very reason and um, you know And then the problem is they have these studies that are put out Uh, you know one that was done on the asian hate and they were like, oh actually What you know based on news reports of when when they listed the race of the suspect We looked and actually black people are not committing these crimes against asians like because they never mention it Even in the I looked at some of the articles they have video of the suspect It's clearly a black guy, but because they didn't say black in the article They don't count it as a guy who did something. So yeah, it's really unfortunate Like it's it's been getting really bad in the last few years That is that is in the way that they like biasly cover like racial issues in the media and that is real I mean there's entire books written about how they won't like Like if if you don't see the race of the person listed chances are that's a black person But his point was in 2011 like the the racial Racism and all this stuff like really started to proliferate and I think so I didn't pronounce that word right proliferate Yeah, and I think some of that is organic because we are a nation of changing demographics So it makes sense that we would have people talking about that that's something that's happening I think uh, mpr calls it like the browning of america and all that so like it makes sense in that regard But it also makes sense because we were going into the second term campaign for president obama And the big narrative out of his first win was that he formed this intersectional coalition And this was the winning strategy and obama killed john mccain. He ended up killing mit romney as well So like literally killed the replacing with the robot, but um another robot better model, but um Yeah, so the media saw that as a winning strategy and the media is overwhelmingly aligned with the democratic party So it makes sense that they would push this more because even in this election They were building up toward this intersectional Coalition like being the thing that keeps them a permanent majority because remember the after obama The republicans were never supposed to win a presidency again So like I think part of that is artificial in that like they're pushing what they think is a winning strategy But part of that's natural changing demographics. You're going to have people talking about like changing demographics What's that a question for the left side of the panel here? my left um You said that poverty Helps increase crime But then you amended that to say wealth It's what he meant from the beginning. Don't misspoke. I meant to clarify that well Yes, those who are living in poverty tend to commit more crime Usually the driving factor for that is wealth inequality That seems to cause causes those that are living in poverty to do the yeah for further records for the record the first time I brought it up. I said that Wealth inequality or the wealth of equality. Okay, so that my question lies there If It truly is wealth inequality. Well to me that makes perfect sense If you're a poor person And you live in a poor neighborhood you can't steal from your neighbor because they're poor too So you go right on down the street to where the rich people are and you steal from them So why is that so surprising what to me? You're putting the car before the horse because you want to you want to push the narrative That this wealth inequality is causing so many issues within our society When in reality it's perfectly logical that there's going to be more crime Towards the people who actually have things to take So I don't understand the question because it seems like you're agreeing with us but presenting it as a disagreement if you think that it's natural or logical that That poverty alongside wealth would fuel crime Then how is that a disagreement with anything that we said which is which which is exactly that and like Maybe you don't like the idea of addressing inequality for whatever reason, but you know, you're saying it's perfectly natural or logical That there would be exactly the relationship between those two things that we say there is Reason why I would bring that up is because You're saying that the cause of the crime is poverty But if the cause of the crime is poverty then the crime should exist within poverty itself Well, it does though. That's the thing is like the thing I the thing I said from the beginning Was that the combination of poverty and nearby wealth is what fuels high crime rates But that crime is committed against other pores though. Yeah It's like hey, there's a rich guy down the street. I'm a rob my poor neighbor Well, I think that the I think that there are this is what I was saying response to the earlier question about how there are multiple causal paths that can take you From economic inequality to crime, you know, one of them to be sure is the one that you just said, you know But there are many others they have a I think I I think I brought one of them up earlier You know that the you don't despair at upward mobility, you know through You know through legal means Can not can lead to people, you know people taking a shot at it through through non legal means Or being more likely to be tempted to do that. I think that's a pretty that's a pretty obvious one I think if your Expectations are low because you know because you're in a situation of generalized absolute poverty I think that one's the less likely to come up. I think there are a lot of ways you can get from You know from one to the other and yes, I agree that lead to lots of crimes against against other poor people In fact, other poor people are the most likely, you know victims of of crime overall But I don't think that means there's no connection between crime and economic inequality Thank y'all for coming out My question is primarily directed towards Sean, although I think nuance bro probably shares enough In his ideas with him where he can also answer this so The majority of the discussion was obviously about various studies their methodologies and whether or not that points to some sort of racial bias, however, it seems purely based off of the opening statement that Sean gave That one intent is required to show systemic racism and two That basically the opposite side is using the god of the gaps argument saying that like well since there isn't any evidence to the alternative Then it must be racial bias It seems like both sides are at an impasse where one side will show like the study with the like 100 La car stop cases and say well this like we account for all of these things and there's still a disparity So it must be racial bias And the other side will argue that no there is some sort of other cause that hasn't been uh accounted for so my question is What would it take in a study To demonstrate to you truly that there is some sort of systemic racism Or is it not possible at all for example if they accounted for black people Like being less frequently out in the winter because they don't like the cold assuming that that's the case I would not assume that No for the sake of the argument assuming that that's the case and assuming that they did account for it next time and showed Racial bias regardless would y'all then agree to it If you guys brought up another thing that it could be another ancillary cause and that was eventually accounted for Would you still agree to it? Basically the question is is there any point at which you could conceivably believe it was racial bias? So one of the one of the studies that I brought up and I like it as an example of a traffic study Because what it does is it looks at disparate outcomes first As the basis for further study and that's why I cite the new jersey term pike study So if that were there accounting for who's on the road who doesn't get pulled over showed racial bias I'd say like those new jersey state troopers whoever they were looking at at the time Is a jersey police department uh were using race as as a factor to pull people over for sure And that would be racist like so yeah As long as you like I'm not asking there's like this weird like meme on the internet that I'm asking for like studies That can't possibly be done. I'm literally studying studying a methodology from a traffic study. That's like perfect that that works Like go and if you're investigating departments like the goj did In that instance and you and you do it this way. I think that's great The reason I say the the reason I use the god of the gaps argument is because what we get is There is a disparity therefore racism And then that's it and then if it's not racism today, it's historic racism in the past when there's no reason We should expect any demographics to be equal because people In countries across the world have experienced unequal gum all the time Uh, so I actually have like a kind of a two-part question and it kind of depends So I got a question for the left-hand side and a question for my right-hand side on this one So first for the right-hand side, um Are either of you familiar with the moray hand report from like the 1960s The moray hand. I think that's how you pronounce it. Yes Okay, cool. So, uh, for my right the right-hand side on this one, um, how accurate do you think that proved to be In in history and if it was accurate or even if it's not How much do you think that has a weight on what's happening today when it comes to disparities in crime? And then for my left-hand side of the uh, the panel, uh Are we're either of you familiar that 26 percent of Ferguson's police department's budget came from the pulling over of people for minor traffic violations So How much do you think that contributes to the underfunding of police and looking for tax mechanisms? How much does that contribute to the overall? Uh, not narrative, but the overall crime disparities that we're seeing and thank you Do you mind if I if I say something really quick? I do want to say the discussion about whether or not the motivation of Police or these institutions is a racist one is more or less irrelevant to the entire discussion Obviously, we're debating about this now But if we're like trying to figure out a solution these problems whether or not it's caused by racism isn't really As important as you know, acknowledging that there is a problem here clearly I mean, we're arguing over what's causing it, but there is a problem here and it needs to be addressed um, I And I would actually just just pop it on that and say that they That look I mean for for my purposes, you know I would actually be much happier If out of the two out of the two things that people mean by systemic racism that I identified at the beginning Uh, you know one of them is the combination of people being positions of power being prejudiced and the other being the long-term economic effects and hence effects on everything else of america's apartheid history If it were prime, you know, the more of it's the second one rather than the first one The happiest I am because the second one is the one that's much more easily addressed by my preferred political program It's fairly easy to correct the economic conditions by the right policies It's extremely difficult to change the ideas in people's heads I'll also say that the police department of fergusson getting like a quarter of their budget from tickets For like traffic violations is suss Is all yeah, I don't like those incentives But um, yeah with with respect to the moinehan report, I'll be honest It's been a while since I've read the moinehan report. So I don't actually remember everything I just remember it was uh, it was controversial because it like I don't people call them racist for it or something But I don't remember all the details. So I I don't feel comfortable talking about it Okay, so this question is mainly towards nuance bro. So um And again, it's like more so like criticizing your name because you call yourself nuance bro and yet Most of your politics are right wing or you constantly have you constantly talk about things that support the right wing you're constantly criticizing, um, you know more liberal things like black lives matter and, um Biden and all that and so My question is really like, okay. Well, why don't you criticize trump more or why don't you Support black lives matter more or why don't you you know, just I guess be more nuanced towards the left, right? Um, or either that or maybe just call yourself right wing, bro How many of my videos have you seen? Uh, I've seen a lot of your videos. Yeah, like how many? Well, I mean, I can't give you an exact number video Uh, no, I've not did you see my illegal immigration video? Well, just tell me the points of your video Sure, I mean for example the illegal immigration video is a two-part video where I was uh, Actually, like it was in Replying to vince james. I don't know if you know who vince james is, but uh, you know, he was making a point about illegal immigrant crime statistics and I was saying like a lot of his points were wrong and You know, we actually do need better data on this But a lot of the data that is out there doesn't suggest that illegal immigrants Like steven Crowder for example, you know, this was actually you go to one of his videos is, you know, What's it called his uh, change my mind or whatever He had a segment where he said something crazy like I think he said like 43 of homicides were illegal immigrants or something like that And I was like That does not sound right to me So I wrote a comment and he actually replied and said well, I got it from this data center I'm like, well, that's the data is totally garbage Only criticize some right wing people. I slightly criticize but dude. I just cover what I like to cover Do I agree more with uh, right wing people? Probably. Yeah, I mean Well, yeah, but the thing is like people always try to pigeonhole you into like, oh, are you a liberal you conservative? It's like, dude, if I tell right wing people like, uh, I don't really care about Uh, like I don't think like gay marriage is a sin because I'm not a religious guy So I don't care about that uh abortion I think should probably be you know closer to like the european model of like 12 weeks or whatever like Whatever you want. Uh, that's I mean, these are my positions and I talk about them But you know, I don't do I feel comfortable putting myself in one? Whatever, I don't care. I get a wrong I get along with right wing people better than uh, you know communists Both name doesn't make sense once you start a channel, it's hard to change the name It's like you build the brand like what do you want me to do? People think he's nuanced because everything's middle ground, but it's like he's taken positions from different places So we argue about economics all the time because he's way more protectionist way more Like I would consider more left wing economically than I am and like that's an issue that we argue over The whole thing that he undersold what he did So he went after a bunch of these conservatives Because they were rolling 55 years worth of immigrant crime data into a 10-year span Inflating the crime that illegal immigrants were committing like he made video responses to all these people Condemning them for doing that and he's talking shit about them when they don't correct the record after he does his videos Yeah, and like he's not for sport, but he's done it. It was more than 55 years by the way It's 1955 to 2010 they put it like a seven-year period, but yeah Yes, I had a question. I just can't curious Curious about both sides I just curious how you feel about habitual offender laws in terms of say like life without parole or near life without parole sentences For multiple felonies. Do you think they in general are good or do you think they go too far? I just can't curious what both sides think as far as what they think the ideals would be for people or repeat offenders yeah, I think Generally, I think in a lot of I mean a lot of this varies depending on who the da is what state we're talking about I do think in general we are probably too lenient on crime Especially, you know my hometown san francisco way too lenient on crime you have people I don't think there should ever be a case where someone's been Arrested legitimately for crimes over a hundred times and then they're still committing like these I mean these are these are real cases that I've seen Multiple times, you know in houston for example where I live people being let out on multiple felony bonds Like this is insane. So I do think we should be stricter on crime. Uh, if someone Commits, I don't know. Let's say. I mean you had the street you had used to have the three strikes rule in california They don't really do it like that anymore exactly. But uh, yeah, I support sort of habitual offender laws. Yeah I was gonna say it depends like I'm not I'm not uh, I'm not big on like three strikes and you're out I think anything that takes away like judges are supposed to use judgment. It's kind of in the names Like anything that yanks away judgment completely from judges. I'm not really in favor of Obviously, like when you get to the hundreds of times like they need to put you away for a significant amount of time But anything like three strikes where like the third felony is nowhere near as serious as the the first two I just think it's stupid and it's like too rigid It's one of the reasons why I hate the bail reform in new york because it just says You won't give bail for any of these crimes Like it doesn't allow the judges to judge previous criminal history or even bail jumping or any of these other factors So, yeah, like if we have faith in our judiciary, like we shouldn't the legislator shouldn't be commandeering them By forcing like all these like one-size-fits-all solutions on them Um, I guess I'll throw my bit in here Usually it seems like the behavior people engage in if they're already incarcerated can be pretty Demonstrative of the behavior they might engage in when they get out So typically if someone's really making a ruckus while they're incarcerated It's pretty, you know, you could probably tell they're going to be doing crime when they get out They're going to be, you know back in the prison system pretty quick Um, I'm not a big fan of the idea of like completely writing someone's life off like oh You've made too many mistakes. We're just done with you. We're just going to lock you on a cell You're going to live behind bars behind fences and walls for the rest of your life Because you're too much of a danger to society and you'll rot and die behind these bars and you will never see sunlight I don't like that idea. Um, I I don't know what the solution that is I don't know what the alternative better solution is, but it doesn't sound like that is the right one Yeah, I I think I do know what the alternative Solution is and I think that it starts to become tempting To support these like barbaric laws that like after X number of things, you know, you will never be free again That starts to become tempting when you think that the only solution To criminality in your society is to increase the harshness of the criminal justice system And I would say you know Moynihan report was brought up earlier, which is essentially attempt to uh You know blame black poverty and crime on culture As I think plenty of white ethnic groups had higher crime rates with that higher poverty rates and the culture didn't change that much I don't think culture has that much to do with it. I know You know when you bring up other countries people always say, oh, no, no It's because the culture of somogenous has nothing to do with it they have if you look at A comparatively much more civilized country like norway They have the maximum sentence in norway is 21 years for anything Well, actually not quite true for war crimes and genocide. It's 30 years But for anything short of war crimes and genocide Maximum sentence is 21 years, you know Anders Brevik is going to get out eventually, you know, they uh Unless they changed the laws for which they were talking about and And they have a much lower crime rate than us And why do they have such a lower crime rate than us despite the fact that you know They have such less harsh Sentencing laws because it's a much more equal society Because poverty is not a state of nature. You know the distribution of resources within a society Is a political choice strong welfare states strong unions. These things give you a more equal society So you can have both you can, you know, it's like the little girl in the meme, you know Porcano those right, you know, you can have both you can have much more liberal criminal justice system And you can also have a lower crime, right? They were very equal in the biking days very violent Again see he said poverty is not a state of nature. I didn't make it up Humans are naturally poor when we don't have anything when we didn't build civilization. We were broke When we're hunter-gatherers, we were broke. That's what I mean by that All right. Well, if so that's not a sense of natural that has anything to do with nature As we were as we were in nature before anything to do with how to structure a complex society That's fine. Stop saying it's not natural though. And how we distribute resources Just stop saying it's not a state of nature though. That's it. The poverty that exists in a complex society when it has to go around Has nothing to do with state of nature. If you're actually making a betel irrelevant point My apologies for interpreting you and saying something that would be relevant to the conversation One last question guys Just just to respond to your last point given that so much of this is centered around demographs and How much african-americans commit so much more crime? Is it fair to use norway? As an example when their population of african-americans is near zero Well, it depends. They have Somalis and Oslo. I can tell you that it depends why you think That african-americans commit more crime and this is a big thing that we've been arguing about today, right? Yeah, so if you think it's culture then sure it'll be an unfair comparison If you have I think a vastly more rational view and think that it's economics Then it's completely irrelevant what the racial demographics are of norway Everybody is going to commit less crime in a more economically equal society Right. Thank you so much folks. We are very excited to have the main event at 8 p.m But most of all thanks so much for our guest thrill for this panel. It's been a tremendous one Thank you