 Guys climb up like to the platform in the trees and they have, um, you know, they're a great their community and everyone cheers and then like a pliable vine is tied to their ankles and they jump off like a bungee cord. And that is then, then they reach the ground safely and everyone around them celebrates and this is like, you are now an adult. Welcome to the art of charm podcast today in studio. We have Sasha Sagan. Welcome. Thank you for joining us. I'm delighted to be here. I thank you for having me. Now, obviously having two parents who are famous scientific minds and well reasoned in their thinking, uh, love to hear just a little bit of the backstory of what it was like growing up in that household. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I often say like the best thing I could do when I was a little kid, um, was ask my parents a question to which they didn't know the answer and they were just so enthusiastic about curiosity that if I was sort of pushing the envelope to something that they as learned adults didn't know, this was like cause for celebration and, um, you know, in those days, we would, you know, pre Google, um, I'm 37. I'll just tell you, um, we would go to, uh, the encyclopedia Britannica and like have this kind of sacred ritual of looking up something and finding a clue towards just a clearer picture of a little tiny corner of our world. And, um, they were, you know, I never once got a like, that's just how it is. Or like, because I said so, and I really think that so many children, you know, I'm have that intense like curiosity and wonder and thrill. I mean, about stuff that's very ordinary. I mean, I have a two and a half year old and she like bugs out when she sees the moon every time. Um, and it's like, yes, this is amazing. It's orbiting us. It changes. It controls the tide. So, you know, there's so much to be really enthusiastic about, but we get kind of blasé about things and children get told like, okay, relax. Like it's the moon or whatever, you know? And I think that then we turned into adults that are a little bit less filled with awe and, and you know, it's kind of makes things a little less wonderful. Yeah, it's sad. So my parents were really, really, um, great about encouraging that. And the other thing that I feel really lucky that they, they were really, really instilled in me, um, that is really helpful for me as an adult is sort of a tolerance of ambiguity, you know, in science, like pursuing a scientific question, um, until you have evidence, you know, you have to sort of reserve judgment and tolerating ambiguity is really hard. We really struggle with it as a species, you know, great mysterious questions like, you know, what happens when we die, but also like, you know, like, is she going to call, you know, that kind of stuff. And I think that sort of working that muscle from childhood, um, the idea that there are some things we don't know and that we may find out and some that we may not, um, was really, really reassuring in a strange way. I think everyone who gets to a point in their life where they're looking at different philosophies and ideas about how to go through Lord, eventually your father comes out and, and, and this and for myself of venturing into skepticism and realizing there's not going to be answers for everything and that you don't have to answer them. Was I was a huge part in changing my own world of view. As you were mentioning a lot of times, even for something mundane of is she going to call, we're going to make an excuse. We're going to project what she, what's going on and we can, and we'll come up with this read, what can be a completely ridiculous story that now the rest of our actions is going to be based on. Right. And so I love that you were in a house where, where that ambiguity and, and that was okay. Yeah. It certainly took me a while to get there. Yeah. I mean, and it's really hard. I do think that we, it's a really difficult thing, you know, in, in, in all ways to just sit with that, you know, open questions. But I think, you know, one of my dad's most quoted, um, phrases is, uh, I don't want to believe I want to know. And I think that what they really, both my parents really instilled in me was that what we've been able to glean as a species about the way things really are, about how, what our place in the universe is, the way nature works through science, through the scientific method is almost always more astonishing and more exquisite than the stories that we make up for ourselves. And so if you can hold that space open until there's information that stands up to scrutiny, there's something that will, will, will blow you away. You could have never even hoped for. Now, what about Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, all of these, so the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus were not, no. I mean, it's funny because we, so I did not have Santa and I did not have the Easter Bunny, but I think that was, I mean, so it's funny because we were secular, we're secular, I'm secular, I don't believe my parents didn't instill any of the supernatural or theistic elements of Judaism in, you know, in me as a child, but, you know, science doesn't have like recipes and parties and like things you say when like you hear something wild, you know, that you shout, there's no exclamations like people aren't like, oh my Darwin or you know, and all these, you know, we still wanted to feel and I still very strongly feel like this urge to connect with my ancestors and beyond a couple of generations back, I mean, you know, I know names of great-grandparents, but after that, really all I know is that they were Jews. And so if I do, you know, some sort of very simple actions on certain days of the year, I feel connected to them, even though my philosophy is different than theirs was, presumably, or maybe they were all secret atheists and we have no way of knowing. And when you encountered kids who had belief in theology and mysticism and some of these holidays, et cetera, how was that for you as a child growing up around people who maybe didn't have the scientific method at home? Well, I'm sure I was a total jerk at times and I'd like to apologize, I wasn't like going around being like there's no Santa, like I wasn't like that and I wouldn't do that. I hope, I don't know. I hope I never did that. But I think, you know, and also I have to be totally frank, there is also, especially when you're an adolescent, you know, sometimes an urge like you want to be the most regular thing that there is, you know, so sometimes you feel left out, but my parents really made an effort to make things special in different ways. And because of that, I didn't feel like I was missing the like sparkly child like awe and wonder and like I write in my book, my mother like made up a holiday for me called Blossom Day when the dogwood tree in the backyard, you know, would bloom and we'd have like a tea party and it was like this celebration of nature. And so I had stuff like that that filled the need for, I mean, it was exactly equivalent to the Easter Bunny in a way because it was the same time of year and it was the same message of like spring is coming, it's going to be OK. But yeah, in terms of interacting with other kids, I also grew up in like kind of a crunchy town. So it wasn't like I didn't know a lot of people who are like super devoutly. Right. And obviously, part of the problem I feel that a lot of people have when you start going deep into science is this thought of insignificance, right? How big the universe is. And you even say in your book how realistically, you know, we're just a speck in space and time. And you know, you're confronted with that at a young age where I for me, it was in college where I really started having those deep thoughts. So how is that growing up and realizing just how big the universe is? Yeah, I mean, that existential crisis, even if you have the information from childhood, I think there's still just a moment. And I think it goes along with coming of age and with adolescence where you have the like total freak out of like we are so little, the universe is so big, we're here for a blink of an eye, the sun's gonna burn out. Like there's, you know, like it's just like you can really go down that rabbit hole and like I've been there like it's, you know, but I think on the other side of it, I think a, there's something really powerful about facing that and not putting your fingers in your ear, you know, I'm saying like, okay, I mean, it's mortality really, you know, whether it's the mortality of life on this planet or each of us individually or the people we love the idea that this is not forever, whatever this is. I think that as painful as it can be to face that what's on the other side of it is this idea, well, we're here right now and that's incredibly lucky and beautiful and we ought to make the most of it. And cherishing those moments. Exactly. And I'm assuming that's where the ritual starts to come in. Yes. You discussed in the book. As luck would have it, yes. Yeah, I think that, you know, there is, my mother always says there's no refuge from change in the cosmos, right? And the way that I think the reason we have created so many rituals around the world was such, you know, diversity of concepts and, and ways of doing them is because we have to process change and whether that's the changing of the seasons or the phases of the moon or it's the permanent changes of birth, coming of age, death, those one way streets. I think we if we didn't have celebrations, funerals, rituals, little daily things, things that we do, you know, a billion people do once a year, we would really struggle even more than we already do with this, this nature of constant change. And I think that ignoring it, you know, and I think sometimes when people have lost, if they grew up with faith and they lost their faith, it's very tempting and, you know, far be it for me to judge, but the urge to throw the baby out with the bathwater and like say, OK, well, we're not doing any of that. And even though that but the infrastructure has historically been religious to process these changes, but it doesn't intrinsically have to be. And I think, you know, now, especially like you still you see people still get married. They just the way they do it has changed recently, you know, and more and more I feel like everyone I know is getting, you know, online certificate to marry their friends, you know, and it's like, I think that the idea that we still have these special moments, but maybe we're just not going through the motions to please our grandmothers. Well, it's certainly important that everyone gets to a point, well, at least most people where they're trying to figure out what is the best way to go through this. Since I am here and now I'm starting to realize that there is an end to this. And it's certainly coming, no one gets out of here alive. Right. How am I going to go about this? And then you start to come back to, well, what made things connected? What made things warm and give you something to look forward to? And it was certainly togetherness and for most of that, as you were saying, it was faith that was what had brought us together. And it's finding now for secular people who have drifted so far apart, families have gotten smaller, have become separated. And and and but it was religion, faith, these sort of things that kept us all together. And it's like, well, how do we come back to this? And then having something special for myself as an individual. Right. But then also and now how do I open up these ideas for other people to come in as well? Right. Well, that's a good question. I think when I was researching the various, you know, religions and rituals and celebrations in my book, what I couldn't get over was not all of them, but so many have a kernel, they're built atop the mythology, the theology, the culture, the ritual are built atop a real event, right? A scientific event like the equinoxes and the solstices or, you know, I mean, birth, coming of age, death, these are biological events, you know, and from the outside, all these, let's say, coming of age rituals around the world feel really different, look really different. But if you think, oh, my goodness, this is someone is going through the secondary sex characteristics, you know, getting like facial hair or starting to get their period or, you know, changing in this way that's totally concrete. And I think that when we sort of peel back the specifics of time and place, the things that we're all celebrating and the most traditional things, right? What every religion is very new, you know, on the scale of human history. And so when we sort of peel this all back, what we're, what we're really marking is, is, is much more ancient and in a way much more traditional. And so even if we're doing it in different ways, we can sort of feel connected to one another even with, you know, with our own sort of, you know, cultural group and or someone who lives on the other side of the planet who speaks a totally different language. And in terms of the insignificance question, I also think it's that togetherness that you spoke of, it's like, well, here's all this vastness and grandeur and we're so tiny, but we're on this little lifeboat together. And that's really meaningful and beautiful and reassuring. Well, it certainly helps that it seems that the more you know, the smaller you get. And it's, but you're large in other people's eyes. And you'll always be important to those people. And it's those connections that allow you to feel like, Hey, I'm actually here. And I'm, there is some meaning here. I mean a lot to these people. Yeah, exactly. And it's like just to share a moment and a place with someone you adore or somebody, you know, that's amazing. That's so, that's so worthy of celebration. Absolutely. And I feel this insignificance question one moment in many of our lives where we feel it the most is the loss of a loved one and going experiencing death for the first time. In your experience, how was that explained? Because as someone who grew up in a religious household, there's all this meaning tied to it. Right. Right. So I lost my dad when I was 14. And because my parents had been so open about their views that this is not forever. I sort of, you know, was very curious about death from an early age. And then my dad got sick. And when he passed away, you know, it was one of those things where if you're religious, you know what to say, right? And you people come to your house or, you know, whoever it is in your community, there's a script, you know what to say, you know how to talk about it, you feel better. If you're secular, it's much more awkward because people don't know what to say. And it's really hard. And this is something that I experienced and it's something that I'm really interested in is like, well, what do you say when someone has died and you don't believe that you're going to see each other again? And one thing that a friend, a family friend of mine told me that I think about a lot is a colleague of hers after her father died. She was a grown up person. He said, you know, I'm sorry to hear about your dad, tell me about him. And she was like, oh, well, and she proceeded to describe what he was like. And I thought, well, that's so simple and such a beautiful way of keeping someone alive, you know, metaphorically. And I thought, you know, there's a lot of things that maybe we can find a way to carve out for ourselves that don't require a religious belief. I mean, even there's a Jewish expression that's like, may their memory be a blessing, which blessing certainly has religious connotation. But if you kind of take that away, it's almost secular. This idea of like, well, they lived and they gave what they had to their loved ones. And now that they're not here anymore, they carry on in this other way. Well, now, and this is something I just discovered the other day, but of course we all have social media and people are passing away and their social media still stands. And I just saw this thing on Facebook that you can assign somebody your memorial page, which your page becomes memorialized afterwards, and then you assign it to somebody who gets notified that they are in charge of your page when you pass away. Wow. And so now, I mean, upon your name being mentioned, there's also going to be work that you've done, ideas that you've had, right, innocuous thoughts that were to pass away. Photos, right. That's so interesting. That is really fascinating. I didn't know that I've I've never had a Facebook account. So maybe that's why. But yeah, yeah, yeah. So when I go, I'll really be gone. No, but that is a really interesting. I mean, it's like a shrine. It's where we are. Yeah, exactly. But it's so I mean, obviously social media and technology is like this huge double-edged source, but there are these ways in which I feel like social media is making our lives in certain ways almost more traditional than they were or during the time between like the Industrial Revolution and right now, like what you were saying about how families got smaller, well, like I grew up with my same best girlfriends and like for most of history, we would have lived our whole life in the village together and raised our kids together and then post Industrial Revolution, you know, if we left, we would say goodbye and maybe we get letters, but we wouldn't be together. And now we live all over the country, but we, you know, air quotes, see each other every day in some way and see each other's kids. And I think there's something about that that is kind of traditional. And it's because of science and technology that we get to be, you know, back in the little village together. I feel for a lot of us, the ritual is a way to deal with pain and trauma as well. So obviously looking at life events and milestones, there are positive ones and there are also traumatic ones. And in your research for the book where there are rituals that stood out to you as really just being remarkable in that way for helping people deal with pain in their lives. Yeah, I mean, I think have especially, especially around a death and I mean a birth, which is, you know, which is sort of different, traumatic in a different way, depending on what role you have for us. Not too much. Well, I don't know. Maybe you're right. Exactly. But, you know, I think that that's very true. I'm like, and in, you know, in an emergency, whatever that emergency is, having a pre-existing plan is so helpful. And like all the all the funerary stuff that you see around the world, I mean, what's so moving to me about it is the idea of like, OK, something bad's really happening, but we know what to do. It's not going to fix the problem, but we have a system and we come together and this is how we're going to deal with it. And like the the rituals of all kinds that really were meaningful from the I found really meaningful were the ones that were almost kind of like these little poems about what was going on. And I don't know. I read about like an ancient Egypt during a particular period, like when someone had died and when a man, when a man had died in the family of the women and the family would go through the streets pounding their bare breasts. And it just felt like it was like the like shock and like fury of like this terrible thing happened and being like, we're just going to go like make a huge scene, you know, instead of bottling it up. I was like, that's such an interesting kind of really brilliant, healthy approach, maybe, you know, and like, I love like what a Jewish tradition that I love is like so when you have, when you sit Shiva, when you have essentially the wake, you cover the mirrors with fabric. And the idea is just don't you're not going to worry about how you look right now because you're going to be a mess and just no one's going to think about it and we're just don't even worry about your eye makeup, you know. And like there's very small things and very large things. But this idea, you know, there's a million ways in terms of what we do with the body of someone there. And it's just all about this this idea of like, okay, well, this has happened and we can't do nothing. And if we get into the rhythm of what our grandparents and our parents taught us to do, we might be able to get through at least the next day, at least the next hour. And I feel for a lot of us, ritual also creates space to actually be present in the moment. Yes. And we talk a lot about this on the show, technology, social media pulling us away from presence. And so many people now are turning to mindfulness and meditation because of this exact thing missing in our lives. And for me, when I look back at all of the rituals being raised Catholic and look back in my life, like those were the moments where you were absolutely present because devices were out of the equation. Right. And you had to be there together in those moments. And I feel like part of our missing of presence now or yearning for this presence has to do with us not having these rituals. And what I loved about the book was, well, let's create our own. It doesn't have to be necessarily tied to your religious experience. You can create new rituals and you had some great examples in the book outside of the one with your mom where now you have some rituals with your husband and. Yeah. And you're so right. And it's funny because it's like meditation and yoga like come from a religious tradition and they've taken on the secular or, you know, less religious context. And it is because we need that. We crave that. So one ritual. OK, so small backstory. My husband and I are in a taxi in Washington, D.C. And we get in we're having like a serious conversation about like, should he change jobs or not? And the driver is like, how long have you been married? And this is years ago. And we're like six weeks. And he's like, oh, and like, let's out this sound like, OK, here comes a whole bunch of unsolicited advice. I'm a really tall boy. And but instead he breaks into songs. And we're like, are we tripping right now? And it's like a Janice Joplin medley. And we're like, what is happening? And he's like, do you sing? And of course not. I mean, I don't know. No, we don't. And he starts singing the Alphabet song and coaxes us to join him like around like G. And we are like, sorry, can I swear? Yeah, and we like really get into it. And we're driving with this gentleman through through the nation's capital, just really belting out the Alphabet song. And he's like, you have to sing every week. It's really important. And then you'll you'll stay together and like be united. And and we were like, OK, that sounds good. And we have sung the Alphabet song every weekend for six and a half years. And now we have a toddler. So it's a lot less weird for just two people in their 30s singing the Alphabet song. But it was like, there's something about that moment of like, and we do it like when we're in a rush or when we're apart, we do it over the phone or like you're grouchy, whatever it is. This idea that for 30 seconds or however long it takes, you're going to put everything else outside and do the sacred thing, even if it doesn't have a theistic connotation, but to say, I love you. We are on the same page. We're going to do this silly thing that pulls down your defenses because you're vulnerable. You're being ridiculous. And I think that's a big part of it, too, is that vulnerability that comes in meditation and prayer and all these other things that sort of require you to go inwards and not have just this exterior show. You know, it's interesting that you said that. And there's a lot of people who are pointing in lots of different directions of the divorce rate and where it is. I think it's because people aren't singing the Alphabet. I agree. It's exactly why. No, I'm kidding. But point being, and this has brought me back to my mom's side is Italian. My dad's side is Slavic. And on the Italian side, I mean Christmas, Easter, every time we went to their grandparents, we knew a fight was going to happen. Oh, God. Oh, my God. That's what I thought you were going to say. And everyone's going to get drunk first. Then there's going to be the fight. But then everyone's going to make up. And that was part of this process. I guess it's this idea of Festivus, right? Yeah. Ereance, eras of grievances. But because you're going to come together, tensions are going to build. But that also acts as this release valve and an opportunity. Well, listen, now that you're here, let me tell you why I'm upset with you and now that I've had a few. But which, once again, forcing each other through these holidays to get together or to sing the Alphabet song is this opportunity to say, whatever else is going on, I'm here and I'm here because I love everyone here. And we are family. So yeah, let's go ahead and have it out for a bit. And then we're going to do some shots. Especially if the goal of the argument is to resolve a disagreement or a misunderstanding, that's so different than if the goal is to just be like, you were wrong and I'm so mad. Well, but when we've secularized our culture so much, then those holidays are now far and few between. They're not as important. No one bothers them. And people live so much further away as you can't always fly. You can't always go everywhere. So it's certainly making things difficult, but I never really thought of that having at least a part of the dual force rate is where it is as well. I mean, those cultures and those moments of unity certainly give everyone an opportunity to hash things out. Well, and the release valve, I think culturally you see that, too, in holidays and rituals. I mean, I think that is a lot of what Halloween is about, is there's all these social morays and behavioral rules that we're all following all the time. And then once a year, it's just run through the streets naked, yelling, covered in sparkles or whatever you want. And it's like, OK, then you can got that on my system. I can go another 11 months and 30 days or whatever. And I think you see that throughout history at times where the rules have to break once in a while and so that they don't walk. So everything doesn't come crashing down. Yeah. And what in your mind is the difference between routines and rituals? Because I feel like those words are used interchangeably and they're not really the same. Totally. It's such a good question. I think it really has to do with if the action has meaning for you. If it is a little portal between one way things are and another, if it's, let's say, your drive home. If it's just your routine to go one way because it's the most efficient, fastest way with the least traffic, that's your routine. But if it's like, OK, when I go by these, over this little bridge, I'm like, I'm going to leave my problems from the office behind me and I'm starting my evening and I'm going to think about what I'm going to make for dinner. Whatever it is, if there is a threshold that you are going through from one world to another, even if it's very small or it has meaning to you, where there's a reconnection like the alphabet song and say, OK, well, we have to be somewhere and we're late and everything's stressful. But OK, we're going to do this and then we're going to center ourselves into what's really important. You know that kind of thing, if it has that power for the people involved, I think it's a ritual. If it's just the way you always do things because it's the most convenient, then I think it's a routine. One of the things certainly that goes with ritual is symbolism and picking out things that remind you or bring decision making or ideas to a conscious level so you can have control over where you're at, what you're thinking in that moment. And I certainly love that. I think there's one of the things that we certainly with ritual to bring back, but also the symbolism that reminds us, oh, this is where I take time to be present, to sing the song with you, to have this moment. That's why it's wonderful. Right, yeah, I think that's so true. Yeah, there's something about that that's like setting the space too that's really easy to forget to do. And if you don't think that God's gonna be mad at you, if you don't do it, then it becomes, okay, I'm doing this almost like a little play, a little performance for yourself or for your family or your community. And that sort of has a negative connotation like it's not real, but it's profound and beautiful and it's an art form, you know? Well, certainly in Christianity and any religion, we can all think about the symbols that go along with those religions. And certainly if you, there's this statue that always sticks out in my mind and it's in Budapest and it's a priest over the hill, a bishop, and he's holding the crossover. And when you're looking from the city and you see that statue up on the hill, think like for myself, all these different meanings that come from that. Like if you were traveling around and you see the statue, it tells you where you are, how you're going to behave, what is thought of you as an outsider of what you should be thinking about and social norms that are going to do well for you here or not do well for you here if you don't adapt. And certainly it's like, well, how are we supposed to make these changes or come together if we don't figure out our own symbolism that certainly means much to us. Right, and I think that we do, but we have this idea of like this symbol. I mean, everybody has in their lives the things that hold profound meaning for them. I mean, anybody who has like tattoos, like you see like there's these little private often poems and sometimes they're public and there are things that we all, you know, I mean, from a mile away. Like, I mean, it's not as grand an example, but like branding. You know, we all have these associations with these things. And so I think it's a part of our lives and it's sort of we've, of course, because of the traditions around the world and how sacred and holy, you know, religious symbolism is. It's also, but it's also historic. And the way that we see religions that still have many believers versus the way that we see the symbolism of religions that are ancient, that no longer have a lot of followers, to me, we separate them unnecessarily. And I think that there is profound beauty and art in both. Absolutely. I just think that we sort of, we don't want to, of course, you don't want to hurt people's feelings or fun. And we have this idea that the way we talk about beliefs that still people hold dear is different than the way we would say, well, like the ancient Greeks, you know, the Mount Olympus meant this for them. You know what I mean? But I think it's all really part of the same long, beautiful story that we've been telling as species. And for me, I know the rituals growing up in my youth, the religious rituals were those moments of connection with the family. And, you know, we talked, I talked to a lot of parents who are struggling with devices and getting their kids present and allowing for those moments to happen anymore. And I feel like technology has inserted itself and this attention economy. And it's created this gap for a lot of parents and their kids. And some of these rituals, like for me, going to Sunday meant sitting there with my thoughts while the priest was explaining how life worked to me. And what I thought was beautiful is how you've now started incorporating rituals with your family. And obviously in the relationship you have with your husband, that's an important moment. We want to cherish that bond. But getting children involved in these rituals and allowing them to take part, I think is so key. Yes, I agree. And I think it's the way that you, it's the way you teach, well, it's one of the ways you teach them what you value as a family and what's important. And I think that even if the rituals are one generation old or something, I mean, there's so many things that people do that they don't necessarily think of as rituals. But when my closest friends, like she and her husband and her daughter go to the farmer's market every Sunday and they think of it as, I mean, it's not the same as like hearing a sermon, but they think of it as this sacred natural thing, you know, of like getting the fruits and vegetables from the earth and collecting. I mean, it's very, it's very traditional. It's like, you know, gathering. And I think that those kinds of moments where you say, were you doing this because it's really important and we're going to do this every week or we do this whatever this time of year, every year, it's a message that you're sending about what you value. And it's also, I think the enthusiasm of the parents is totally, you know, crucial to the operation, right? And it's like, if you're excited to go to the farmer's market, it will translate. Whereas you're like, oh, we gotta get a whole bunch of kale. Like, you know, it's just not the same. And I think that that sort of, I mean, even like going to the aquarium or something like that, where if you can tap into your own awe and wonder about something that's maybe, you know, part of nature on earth, I think that that communicates something and looking at something like that, like an octopus, let's say, and really letting yourself be mesmerized by its movements, you know, there's something in that that also lets you go inside yourself and have a deep connection and a think, you know? Yeah, that sense of awe. Yeah, exactly. That is lacking at times with these devices, just dialing up whatever we want immediately. Totally, and the idea that like the impatience of like, I mean, it's right, it's like those times where you don't have something to look at, you don't have something to watch, it's like you have to create something in yourself to think about, to entertain yourself. And I think that- It'd be scary. Yeah, exactly, totally, right. Well, that's the thing, it's so often like, we've, you know, that fear of being alone with your thoughts, but I think it goes back to, I mean, maybe not for small children, but for adults, it goes back to the fear of the existential crisis and the fear of facing the like, shortness of everything and mortality. And it's like, just dive into it. I mean, it's not like, you know, just, it might be really like a dark place and it might be scary, but like ignoring it's not gonna help. It's not gonna make it any better. So just go there and, you know, do your best, I guess. I certainly, in my 20s, I think for a lot of people, they spend a lot of their time slashing every sacred cow they can find and I don't need any of this. But after you're fully grown and you start the long, slow ride down the hill, you're trying to find meaning in anything or just anything to make what is going on and impactful and beautiful and something to give you to will to keep going and with service to others and everything else that comes with that. And it's, I think a lot of people are struggling with that and I think our society is certainly demonstrating that as well. I mean, people are certainly getting sucked into a lot of things. I feel they're just hurting them even more. Specifically, we always go get into it with the sort of thing the news is portraying with fear mongering and all the insanity to keep you glued to them. But if we were able to find some meaning in other areas of our life, we wouldn't be so addicted to all that stimuli. Right, and I think the other element of it is it's like, I mean, the reason we have all these rituals, the reason we have religion, the reason we have the news is because we have this nagging, like what's gonna happen? What's gonna happen? Is something bad gonna happen? I need to be prepared, you know? And it's like that we cannot predict the future. I mean, I'm all for being well informed and I'm not saying don't watch the news, but we have this deep, deep terror of because the future tortures us with our inability to predict it. And I think that there's something about that that's really hard, but I think on some level, we're gonna have to just face the idea that we don't know what will happen next. But in terms of this idea of like having, you know, like slashing all the sacred cows, I think it's, I think when belief or meaning is forced on someone, then of course the pendulum has to swing in the other direction. And you can't, it doesn't work like that. You cannot make somebody believe through force, you know? And or not believe, you know? And I think that the people I have known in my life who are true believers and I have people in my life and have had people in my life who are devoutly religious, they are totally unthreatened by my non-belief or other, you know what I mean? And I think that when we are made to feel that we have to have faith or on the other extreme that we cannot, you know? I think that then all the beautiful parts of a tradition get thrown out with the bathwater. And I think that there's something really, you know, and I think there's a lot of gray area where people will say, okay, this part really speaks to me. This doesn't make any sense. And I think navigating that in your own way is something that everyone has to do when they plan a wedding. Everyone has to do when they are raising a child with someone else, even if they grew up in the same exact tradition, it's not gonna line up perfectly and they have to make these decisions about, well, what are you willing to actually go to the mat for and what are you gonna let fall away? Well, I love this idea of remixing traditions to make them your own rituals, to make them your own. And I feel like now, especially with the fact that we're in a place now in history where we are meeting different cultures, we're marrying into different cultures and traditions, which for many, many generations was just unacceptable behavior. And now we're- Now you just couldn't meet anyone who wasn't from your village, yeah. So the likelihood of that even happening was slim to none. And for me and my relationship with my fiance, I remixed the Easter Bunny. So she didn't have any religion growing up. I had the Easter Bunny, of course. So I created the Easter Turtle. And basically he's a little slow so he gets the Easter Bunny's candy on half off a couple of days after Easter. That's really good. So we turn this into this little thing and we're gonna pass it on to our kids. And I think it's important for you to make these your own, not just throw them all out with the bathwater, so to speak, but take what you like about those traditions you had and give them a little spin. Make them your own. Absolutely, and you know, everybody knows the stuff that they love and everybody knows the stuff that they feel this heavy obligation, like that fear of like, I don't wanna be the first person to not do it. You know what I mean? Like I don't wanna be the one to break the chain going back however many generations. It's a lot of pressure. It's a lot of pressure, but everything we're doing as said or late, like everything we're doing is new on the grand scheme of things. And even if you are like truly, truly like orthodox and whatever tradition you are, like a few thousand years ago, everything was being done totally differently. Like they're as traditional as you feel you can be, it's still new. And so, and it still evolves over time and mutates to borrow some scientific language. And it has to in order to survive. So how can we go about creating our own rituals and remixing them? Do you have some guidelines for the audience? I think trial and error. I mean, sometimes you're just like, especially if you're doing something with like a group of people, like you just, you know, you gotta read the room. I love it. Sometimes, you know, this is the thing. It's really hard to start something completely from scratch because it can feel contrived. But if you're sort of doing a play on something that already exists, it's familiar, but you're like the part that I don't like or the part that doesn't ring true or the part that's just been disproven can or is really discriminatory or is really hostile or whatever it is can fall away and there's a kernel of something else here that's really meaningful and it's gonna change into something else because everything, every civilization, every culture, every religion is built atop the shambles of the people who came before them and going back, you know, beyond the horizon of time. So if you're just doing a new twist on something that you grew up with, that is not so wild and that's not so unusual. So I would say, find the part you really like about it. Learn the history of it, how it started, where it came from, who was doing it before your group was doing it. And you know, I think there's something to be said for letting it change not just over the generations but over your years and days, you know, and it doesn't have to be, you don't have to be rigid about it. And I think that is something that can be really hard when it's like, there's one person who's like, well, you have to do it exactly like this. And everyone's like, dad, stop, you know? But like, let whatever element of it that's working, like, follow that thread, yeah. Well, and also to go along with that, since everyone is going to be trying to figure out what works for them and their family and what they can all get everyone to commit and buy into, but also what comes with that is being accepting of what other people are doing. Absolutely. And that's where I think we're getting a little bit in trouble because if you're trying, if you want to put some much meaning here, well then how do you deal with this over here? Right. I think that the idea that, you know, all the like specifics of what we're doing are totally arbitrary. You know, they are meaningful to us because they're special and they, you know, we have connections to our families and to our place, you know, and to our ancestors, but it's not intrinsically like better or worse than anything else. It's just meaningful to us. And I think that the idea that, you know, the real root of the holiday, the real changes that are happening, that's the thing that you can, you can test, you can understand, you can hold up and everything else is like a performance art piece. And it's a reflection of what you need in that moment to deal with winter or to deal with a death or to celebrate spring. And just the way that like it's not like, you know, with art, it's not like, I love this painting and we're not having any other paintings. I don't even want to look at another painting. This is the only painting you can say. This is my favorite painting. I love it. Look at this vast museum. Look at this vast world of different forms of art. Isn't it wonderful that they're not all the same? And in your research for the book, were there any rituals that were just mind blowing or completely new discoveries for you that fascinated you? There was one, one of my very favorites. I don't think I was totally unaware of it, but just reading about it more and like just watching the footage. So in Vanuatu, which is like in the South Pacific, the coming of age ritual, it's something that adult men do periodically, but the coming of age ritual. So, you know, say it like, Burmetsville, Keynesonura, you know, anything that you've ever been to anywhere in the world. Guys climb up like to a platform in the trees and they have, you know, they're greet their community and everyone cheers. And then like a pliable vine is tied to their ankles and they jump off like a bungee cord. And then they reach the ground safely and everyone around them celebrates and this is like you are now an adult. And there's something about that, the idea of it's like conquering a fear, facing something that's terrifying and doing something that's tangibly real that represents what it's like to become an adult really moved me and stayed with me as like the perfect crystallization of something that everyone's, you know, doing in different ways. Now are you bringing this ritual to your family? I'll be jumping off a high tower with no, I think that would be cultural appropriation. But I think that that's like, that's the kind of thing that's like a perfect example of like, okay, I'm not gonna start doing that. But I think it's like, I can still just from knowing about it, reading about it, seeing photographs of it, I can glean a deeper understanding of my own experience, of everybody I know's experience of coming into adulthood. And that's sort of what's so marvelous about all these rituals. That's beautiful. They're reminds me of one that I had saw in Porto in Portugal where the young men, they all line up on this bridge and they yell out to all the female tourists. I love you, you're beautiful. And just to get their attention and they leap off into the water. And they were telling me that this is a summer thing for all the young boys and they can't wait for this moment. It's their opportunity to chat up all the ladies and the tours. Yeah, well, and it's like, that's the kind of thing that like, you know, we human beings, we love to think that we're so different than all the other species on the planet and we're so special. But that is just the kind of thing that like in a nature, you know, maybe I used to be like, planet Earth, maybe I used to be like, oh, they're trying to win the fans. Yeah. Females and like, they look at their plumage and you know, it's like so, like the stuff that we do, I mean, that's one of the things that I think is so important too is, and like you were saying about like, how we judge other groups, it's like, take a moment to see, look at what you yourself doing from the outside as though you were an extraterrestrial or you were from the other side of the planet or you were a newborn baby. And it looks, it seems so elaborate and specific and ridiculous and maybe beautiful, but it's so arbitrary. And that's fine. That's great. But it's, you know, far be it for us to judge everybody else. As long as it's like, someone asked me like, well, what about all these rituals that were, you know, someone gets hurt or there's something really cruel happening? I'm like, that is in a totally different category. Like I'm not, I'm not going to defend to any of that. Right, exactly. I'm like, that's totally different. But if this is something that people are doing with their own volition and there's, you know, moderate danger, you know, which I mean, we do stuff that's totally, you know, dangerous too. But, and it's, then it's like, how can you not, you know, sort of find some beauty and joy in that? I know a lot of men and women in our audience are starting to have families and raising kids of their own and one of the things that comes up time and time again for us is how to spark that curiosity in your children. Yeah. And I'd be curious, obviously raised in a scientific method family, how you are imparting that curiosity in your family. I think my job as a mom is just to like buttress her and, you know, she has this curiosity and enthusiasm. And like, I just think we, I just have to keep ping-ponging it back and forth with her. And like, you know, when she discovers something new or like, you know, an airplane, you know, the kinds of things that kids are really into or like, you know, like a bulldozer and like to just mirror her level of enthusiasm and maybe even, you know, get a little amped up a little bit. And like that just keeps going and it's like, I don't want to be like, Oh, well, I'm really like, you know, I'm really into dinosaurs of don't helicopters are not that interesting or whatever, you know, I just whatever she is curious about. And, you know, like the moon, as I mentioned earlier, she's obsessed with it. And we just, my husband and I, we just make a really big deal when we see it and she gets really excited. And then, you know, we learn about it and we talk about the phases and isn't it amazing that it changes. And I think just letting the kid lead the way and then just help them understand everything they can about it as though it is like the most special astonishing thing even if it's like the most ordinary part of daily life. I really think no harm can come from that and a lot of good can. And it's beautiful. For me, it was definitely, well, that's just the way it is. Yeah. Like, okay. Sorry, never mind. And the flip side of that, I feel like we talk a lot about conversations and building relationships with others and a lot of people who are struggling in this area of their life with their social skills and they come to us, they are really struggling to find that curiosity. It's dulled in their adulthood and... Beaten out of them in a lot of cases. Yeah. And because of it, you know, they struggle to relate to people in conversation. They struggle to build deeper relationships. How can we cultivate that curiosity as an adult outside of having kids? Yeah. I just have like 12 kids. There you go. They're singing to the moon. But it'll be all set, yeah. No, I think asking people questions and like, you know, sort of like, you know, if you don't know what to say or you feel a little uncomfortable, just asking people questions and then asking them follow-up questions and you will get to something interesting. You know, where are you from? Like, whatever it is, ordinary things leading that, following that and everyone you meet will have something interesting to share that will spark some curiosity. And like, you know, sometimes like, if you meet someone new and you sort of have this game of like, well, I'm just gonna pretend like I'm interviewing them and if you don't wanna share or you feel shy or whatever it is, I think there's something really valuable about just asking someone questions and really listening to what they're saying. And it's almost like by pretending to be curious, you will become more curious and you will find something in everyone you meet that you didn't know. And I think a big part that we've talked a lot about on the show is not going into it, having done the research online and tried to find all this information about the person but actually being present and allowing that to happen naturally. Oh, totally. Yeah, oh, do people do that like before they meet someone? Well, yeah, whether it's online dating or if they're meeting people out and immediately it's like, oh, let me look up your social media. Let me paint the picture myself without asking the questions to learn. And also because it's no one, they never line up perfectly, you know? You have no context for any of this stuff that you're seeing. And so the picture you put together is usually completely absurd. And then you go into it with an agenda or a scripted date that you're trying to force on the person rather than being in the moment and enjoying yourself and they can feel that. Yeah, and then it's like, you're not surprised and the person can talk. Like if you say like, oh, and I, whatever, you know, jumped out of an airplane a month ago, you know? And the person already saw the picture, you know? They're not gonna get the reaction and the person who jumped out of the airplane would be like, I guess you didn't think that was so cool. Yeah, I jumped out of the airplane, you know, whatever it is. I think, yeah, absolutely. And just like, you know, I think we're also, I mean, this is kind of another element of it, but like remembering what someone says to you and the next time you cross paths with them, you know, let's it percolate if something you didn't know or something you didn't understand or something you came back to later and the next time you meet them say, you know, I thought a lot about this, I have some work, you know, I have another thought or I have another question. I think that that, you know, cause sometimes in the moment you don't have the perfect reaction or response, but it stays with you. And I think there's something really lovely when someone says, oh yeah, last time we met, you said this, I was wondering X, Y, and Z. So there was one other ritual in the book that I share as well around coffee and mornings. And we talk a lot about morning routines and building habits. And this ritual that you have around coffee I'd love for you to share. And are there any other rituals that go into your morning routine? Oh, that's such a good question. Well, it's sometimes a little chaotic now because, you know, we have a toddler, but my husband is more of a morning person and he gets up first and he makes coffee and he brings me a cup. And it's like so, you know, regular, but it's so magical to me in a couple of ways. One, I find it really romantic and it's so like just to like have that be the first part of my day is just warms my heart and makes me feel really loved. But also this idea, like again, like if you're a child and someone is explaining to you from the first time, this idea like, okay, this plant grows in the earth and we have figured out how to roast it and harvest it and make it into this magical potion that you drink and then you can go do stuff really is like with a lot of energy and zest. And like, I think that like, there's so many elements of daily life that when we take a step back, right? When we're, something's explained to us in childhood, it's often explained by somebody who has known that information for a long time and the novelty has worn off. But if you can sort of get back to the place where you heard this for the first time and you were like, what? This is wild. I think that there's a lot of beauty in that kind of stuff and it's everywhere. I think for a lot of people, when they think about folks who are secular or who are slashing the sacred cows that we were talking about earlier, that they tend to think that those lives of us are devoid of a lot of wonder and excitement. And obviously, I mean, we're just talking to you. It's going to come through of all the excitement and zest that you have for life. And certainly for AJ and I, we try to do that on the show. And for myself, I think for, and probably AJ as well, for a lot of the science-minded folks that I look up to, they all have that wonder made. Your dad certainly had it. Absolutely. And I think that one of the things that's so valuable is this idea of separating skepticism from cynicism. You know? There you go. The idea of questioning things and understanding things, studying things deeply is a way of honoring them. And I think we have this totally screwed up idea that when we understand something, the beauty and awe and wonder goes away. And I think for me, and I think for a lot of secular people, the more deeply you understand something, the more awe you have. And it's like, you know, a scientific, deep scientific understanding about something is a, like that's like falling in love with someone. And you're like, I want to know everything about you. Like, what was your childhood pet's name? Like, what's your aunt Bertha? Like, you know, whatever it is. And it's like that kind of, and you know what you see it a lot. What I often think about is you see it a lot with meteorologists when there's a big storm coming. Oh yeah. And they are pumped and they are co-cited and they wanted to have like all the pressure systems and everything. And it's like, this is, that's like love and they understand perfectly what's going on and it's no less sacred and awe-inspiring or terrifying but you know, astonishing because they understand how it works. Yeah, it does not have to remove the magic. Yeah, and I think it provides more magic. I agree. But the problem is when skepticism is involved, there's this judgment that is placed sometimes by the skeptic and sometimes by the people who are not skeptic are feeling it. And I think that's really where we get led astray. And I think we need to be more open and tolerant of people, whether they are very conservative in their values and their traditions or they're secular and they're looking to create new ones. Absolutely. And I think it's like anything it's like, you know, when you start asking someone questions and you actually listen to what they're saying, you got a different perspective. And that goes in both directions and I also think that like, you know, we want to, everyone wants to preserve themselves that what's really hard is being wrong, you know? But what I, my parents really taught me to value so much about the scientific method is this idea of like and the history of science, of course it's not perfect and people are jerks in all, you know, there are jerks in every element of human life but this idea that like the goal is sometimes to tear down the like the sacred cows and sometimes the most widely held beliefs if you see that there's something that doesn't hold up and you just prove it, that's heroic rather than you are now excommunicated, you know? And if the goal is deeper understanding, you know, we're not totally there yet. Certainly there are things we believe right now that to future generations will seem hilarious or really fucked up, but this idea that we're on the path to testing to see how we can be better and how we can understand more deeply. And that sense of discovery is always there. Yeah, and that's how we got this far and like think of all the things that we used to believe that really were problematic and now we've let them go. Hopefully we've let them go, yeah. Well, a lot of, sometimes they come back, you know, but, you know, on the scale of human history, there's a lot of stuff we've moving in the right direction over the millennia, maybe not in the shorter term. So where can our audience find out more about the book and what you're working on? Oh, well, the book is called for small creatures such as we and it's, you know, available in places that you buy books and I'm, you know, I know we've said a lot of bad stuff about social media but I'm on Instagram and Twitter at Sasha Sagan and I have a website too, my name also. And are you working on a new book? I'm working on some stuff that it's kind of early still, but yeah, I'm still, I got some stuff going more soon. And so does your mom as well, right? So everyone needs to check out the Cosmos? Yes, Cosmos March 9th, it comes out on National Geographic and it's beautiful and my mom writes and produces and directs it and it is just so hopeful and beautiful and I play my own grandmother in two scenes. So there's that. Is this an acting debut for you? I mean, it's barely acting, I don't have a line. It's, yeah, no, I wouldn't call it acting. It's a standing in front of a camera with a lot of makeup on, Damien, maybe. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you both.