 People are always looking for like a reason to put you into a box and put limitations on you because of that. And many people who have any type of thing that makes them diverse in any type of way, we learn to almost put up a barrier or armor or try to hide it or whatever it is so that we don't get things taken away from us before we get the chance. And it's a survival strategy. When did Dream Nation, like in 2013, the creation, how did you manage the 20 people you haven't even got to that yet? Yeah, I want to ask to get there. So Dream Nation, the first person that actually the two people that came on board first to Dream Nation, one is a lady called Iris. She actually did her placement year with us. So yeah, she was like, I've seen what she was doing a lot for us. She was like, I saw what you did with Starlight Imagery, Crate of Circle, etc. Like, I want to just jump into entrepreneurship. So do you mind if I do my placement year? That was a hell of a scary decision. Yeah, and I was scared to do it. But I was just like, you know what, let's do this. Like, let's see if it works. Like, if you believe in me that much, then... But somebody's doing a placement with you. That is surreal. But I think this kind of goes back to, I think, maybe a lesson that I hadn't actually touched on yet, and actually a reputation. So, remember, she's a student at Loughborough. So she had seen, like, the transformation that I did of the ACS. She saw the legacy of the ACS. She saw all the awards that we were winning. Like, because we were, we had become like one of the universities, like, post a child for entrepreneurship at this point. We'd got investment from them. We'd got this, we was in, like, marketing campaigns. So we were, like, really up there. And just a few other things that I was doing and involved in. So she saw, essentially, my character and my potential. And I think that's what she bet on, rather than betting on actually what I was doing at the time. Hopefully, it was a good choice for her. But I'll let her talk to herself on that. So she came on board and then there was another lady who had attended my first event that I organised. Toby Rachel Ekambane. Okay, yeah, that's her name. Yeah, that is. So she then came on to be our editor-in-chief, even though we didn't have any type of content at the time. But I thought, okay, cool, let's do this. And as you guys probably know, Toby's now, like, one of my closest friends. Like, I literally think of her as family. In fact, we refer to each other as cousins. Yeah, that really threw me off initially. You were like, oh, my cousin. The reason we had to do that is because, apart from the fact that we basically are family now, but it's also because we were so close, people we always think we're dating. I've got you. So it's like, okay, if he thinks he's my cousin, then that solves all the issues. Although Toby and Iris had joined the team, I still was doing the vast majority of work. And that wasn't because of the lack of their willingness or ability. That was because I just had this whole founder thing of like, oh, it's faster for me to do it myself or easier. So I was just going through, going through, going through. And then we got to, me, organising this got along. I was out of my depth. I've never done anything like that before. People saw dream nation as being this amazing, massive thing as well. So then there were all these high expectations. And at the time, I then also had two really big, personal things that happened. Both of my grandmothers died within a team-up period of each other. And that was within the same periods that the gala was taking place as well. So then that massively threw me off. My relationship with my grandmothers were really close. They both basically raised me in their own ways. And I'd say a lot of who I am is because of what they put in me, essentially. So it was definitely a big loss. And I just, between the stress of organising the gala, between the stress of one of them passing away suddenly and the other one slowly deteriorating over that time period because of cancer, unfortunately, it was just so, so, so stressful. And then you didn't throw in the financial difficulty of organising the gala. It was just like, yeah, by the time I got to, by the time I got to the day of it, I was a mess. I remember I was having panic attacks in the nights beforehand. Like, I was like, tea, steak, it's not selling. I haven't sorted out this yet, I haven't sorted out that, except ever, I would say the first gala we organised, in my opinion, was a mess. People enjoyed it. I believe I was there as well. I don't think it was a mess. The first one, the first one. Wait, was it in North London type of, North East type? It just was the location I'm forgetting now, but it's not the one that was, it's not the one that, because there's one that was like, no, you know what, you didn't come to the first one. I didn't come to the first one. No, you didn't come to the first one. I know for sure, actually. You would know. It was, in my opinion, it was a mess. The only saving grace is, what actually became a dream nation tradition, was like, I said to myself, there's so many things I haven't delivered on, but if I give people free rum punch the whole night, then that will at least cover a lot of problems, and it did. So that's the reason why whenever we do, there's like garlands and a lot of things like the Dream Nation, there's normally free rum punch throughout the whole night, like that's, this is tradition from there. And I remember like, I remember after the event, I was so down, because actually my grandmother ended up passing away, literally the very next day, so it went up to Birmingham. Like the garland was done, we all went home, I got dressed, it would drive up to Birmingham, and then the next day, literally I watched my grandmother pass away. So like, during that time period over Christmas as well, I was just like, yeah, I'm just done. This was too hard. I didn't get the support that I needed. Like people didn't buy tickets the way that they said they were going to. And I felt like really embarrassed. That's like, I was like, this reputation I spent all these years building up, I felt like I ruined it in that moment with what to me felt like a terrible event. But then something a bit mad happened, which is there was a picture from that gala that went ridiculously viral. Like ridiculously viral. What happened, what was in the picture? So it was, I think maybe about seven or eight of the girls that attended. They took that this really cool picture, like of them being kind of silly, but looking outstanding, could have all like in there. I think I remember this picture. A lot of people don't actually know that's where it came from, but yeah, like, so they were all looking great, could have all in there like, garland clothes, et cetera, but they were like pulling like gang signs and faces, et cetera. And the caption was something like, like two doctors, one dentist, like two, et cetera, something like that, like just naming all the things they're doing. And I think it was just like a moment that showed people that you can be excellent and you can also still have personality and enjoy yourself. And also, I think at the time, there wasn't that many examples because they were all the people in the picture were black. There weren't many examples of like positive things that nature also is like, you can be successful, you can be black and you can still enjoy yourself. I think that you're right. I didn't come to the first gala. I saw that picture and it made me wanna go. That's exactly what happened to everybody. It made me wanna go, yeah, yeah. So that was when Dream Nation like multiplied in its popularity and awareness. Cause yeah, we had people from America email me like, yo, when you come and bring this out here, like that, yeah, it was, it was crazy. But at this point, I'd already given up. I was like, I'm not coming back to, I'm not doing this Dream Nation thing anymore. Like let me go back to doing my media stuff. It was safe. It was like not distressed for et cetera. And then, yeah, this picture went viral and I just saw just how much of an impact it had on people. Like it just felt like it's uplifted people so much. And I was like, all right, you know what? Let me re-delicate myself to making this work. Hey guys, I just wanted to let you know that on November the 24th, 2023, we will be hosting our first workshop of the year. It's gonna be focused on helping you to become a board member. For more information, visit the Dream Nation website at dreamnation.co. That's dreamnation.co. And I realized the first mistake I had done was I tried to carry it all on my back by myself. So I called a meeting with Iris and Toby. I remember we met in the basement of some pub, the Star of Kings actually, just in Kings Cross. And we just sat there for hours just kind of discussing and I think letting go of that control and having that humility really changed the dynamic of I guess how involved they felt with the mission and the next thing we did was that if we wanna bring this thing to a level that can hopefully impact the world, we're gonna need a team. So at that point we laid out all the different roles that we needed and we started to think about who do we know in different networks that can do all these positions. We just went out and recruited and then we got to about 10 people I think at first. We used that team of 10 to do the next Dream Nation conference and that was just amazing. In fact, this was now, I think, yeah, this is now 2015 or 2016. Yeah, because you had a conference and then you had Agala, right? Yes. And I think I remember seeing the conference and it was like, I remember seeing it on your website and it was all sold out. Yeah. And I was so annoyed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I kept missing, I kept missing, like yeah, because you had a few dates. Yeah, I liked it a bit. But solid. Yeah, so 2015, now that I had a set of people that I'd let actually just commit themselves to this vision, really get involved, et cetera. Yeah, blew up. Everything was a million times better than what I was doing when I was doing it by myself. Like the quality was up there, the impact was up there, the growth, the hype, et cetera. And I think from that, it just kept on attracting more and more people that said, that's when I first started paying people to then be part of my team. They joined full-time at the time. Wow. They were not on full-time salaries. Yeah, believe it. Yeah, like they were that committed to the division. And because they had me start the commitment, I actually went on to make them co-founders as well in that regard. You have to also think about the time, like how old you were at the time and people were more willing to do things and to take a risk. They didn't have that much financial responsibility as well, so. Yes and no. So we didn't have anywhere in there as much as we have now. So it doesn't know a way that people back in their late 20s and 30s can be doing what we was doing then, no chance. But that doesn't mean it was easy. It was everybody that had come on board to do that, they were turning away significant money because they were very talented people, very talented, they could have got much better jobs elsewhere without any doubt. The thing that kept them there, I guess, was one, the vision, like they believed in it themselves, but then also two, if I'm being involved, my leadership. So those two things together then attract people. Well, it's like I said earlier, I was like, if you don't own it, and then it's like people can't latch on to it. So because I owned it, I gave people something to anchor into as well. And then just kept slowly growing from there to there until we finally got to 20, but the 20. 20 is a lot. It is a lot, it was too much because I had, I guess, because there was so much going on, I had kind of forgotten some of the lessons I learned earlier and I was just accepting a lot of people on to the team and then not really also paying attention to how much they were committed to what it was I was doing. So... Because everyone's excited, it's dream nation. To be a part of the team is like, oh my God! So they might, but they're not actually all pulling their weight, but it's the recognition. 100%. Recognition opportunities. Opportunities that will open up for them. Definitely almost everybody that was part of the team went on to get something better. There was a consequence of being there. I also have really good references as well. So yeah, but yeah, it was definitely a mistake in terms of the way that I handled leadership at that time. And it's the reason why I ultimately had to have a hard reset, stop everything and go back down to one. So yeah, like I went back down to just myself. I really had to go back to basics and think about what is it that I'm really trying to accomplish? But also at this time, how do I build a sustainable business? Like not on this type, not just on energy, but something that's gonna make a real impact and be able to last. So that was, I guess, the story of how we went from that to 20, but never back down to one again. And now you have three. Now I've got three. Including me, I'm rhyming a lot. But yeah, that sounds really good. I think being a leader as a founder, there is a real sense of responsibility and this level of pressure. You are the person that they turn to you. And even though, yeah, it's great to get ideas from the team, ultimately, you're the decision maker. So you have to have that confidence in what you're saying because they look to you to set the mission, set the vision. So that I found hard sometimes because also I'm a very sociable, build up my batteries from being around other people and I've never been good with my own company. I just love hearing other people's opinions and working on things together and very much a team player. It's not even unlearning that, but trying to step away from that a little bit and make my own decisions as a leader has been something to adjust to and get comfortable with. Okay, so you are quite open to talk about the fact that you're dyslexic and how that impacts your way of working and the adjustments that you've made in your life to be able to still be, to work to the best possible capability you can. I'm sure there are plenty of other people who have, we all have something. How did you, first of all, how did you like acknowledge that there was a level of limitation in certain way that you may have to turn that around into a positive, I don't wanna say positive, but you know what I mean, working to your advantage. I'm gonna say for me, I was very blessed and very lucky when it came to dyslexia because I was diagnosed very young. I think I was, I was definitely in primary school. So we're talking maybe like six to seven, so very young when I found out. It helps because, yeah, it meant that it put everything into context. So a lot of people when they get the diagnosis at a later age in life, whether it's dyslexia or ADHD or whatever, they're like, oh, that explains the last however many years of my life, whereas for me, I always went into every situation, understanding this is the way that my brain is wired. It's different to everybody else. So if you want to succeed, take a different pathway. And I've just lived with that reality, so it's always been fine for me. And I think with that, without a doubt, I do say it in terms of like, oh yeah, it's like the super power, et cetera. Like it does come with advantages. It means my brain is wired differently. I think differently. I'm naturally more innovative. It's that simple. However, my brain is wired differently. I think differently. So therefore, things that are standard to most people are not standard to me. It's a double edged sword in that regard. And because of, I guess, my practical mentality and the confidence that's been instilled in me, I'm more focused on, all right, if I can't do it the way that everyone else does, then let's find a way that works for me. So one of the most important hires in my life, in fact, like you said, when I went back down to one, the first person I hired was an admin. So my PA, Shanna, she is literally like, I cannot. She's amazing. Yeah, she's amazing. But I promise you, there would be no Claude Williams if there was no Shanna. Wow. You would not know who I am. Because part of the reason stuff like Jim Nation failed apart the first time was because I was not handling my admin correctly. It's that simple. I was missing out on stuff. I remember we had like steeped fines from the HMRC for just not submitting our accounting stuff. It's just like, why, like it's not needed. And I say steeped, I mean, we're talking thousands. And we didn't, I don't think you even owed the money. You were just getting fines just before you did it. Late, late submissions. We've been there. And yeah, so I've now really just embraced what am I good at? What am I bad at? And now just get people to feel my weaknesses. It's that simple. Like even to ever see you as my producer, you already know, like I leave almost all admin to you. I leave obviously a lot of the creative side, but also I leave the administrative of actually booking guests, like getting stuff organized, handling emails and stuff, cause like, I know I'm bad at it. And I'll get in your way in doing so. So I'll let you be great at that. And I'll be great at the things that I have to handle, simple as. And I think embracing your strengths and your weaknesses and really leaning into them is one of the best things you can do. Without a doubt, you can't always run away from your weaknesses. I've also become much better at admin and organization and stuff like that, just within myself. Because if I want to get to a certain level of greatness, that's required. But I also know that there is a limit to that. So I'll get to my potential, that limit, and I'll then let other people carry it to another level from there. And that within leadership, how have you approached even the people that you're working with? I think, brutal honesty. So I accept my strengths, I accept my weaknesses, I embrace them and I don't hide them. So you probably one of the first conversations you would have had with me is I am dyslexic, I am not good at this, or X or Y or Z. In fact, even before we even had a conversation, if I emailed you first, you would see it in the email. So because I'm so open about it, A, it's never a weapon that can be used against me, first and foremost. But B, it then just means that we can have just honest conversations. Why do you think people are afraid to share, especially in business as like an entrepreneur as a leader? I think the reality is that there's so much stigma, not just around dyslexia, but just around anything. People are so quick to judge people, we're so quick to find people's weaknesses, to judge people, to make assumptions around people. That can be like your new diversity, it could be a disability, it could be your race, it could be your gender, your sexuality, whatever. People are always looking for, like it's like a reason to put you into a box and put limitations on you because of that. And many people who have any type of thing that makes them diverse in any type of way, we learn to almost put up a barrier or armor or try to hide it or whatever it is so that we don't get things taken away from us before we get the chance. And it's a survival strategy, like I'm not gonna sit here and tell you that like everybody is accepting of all these things, like they're not. I still have plenty of people that will still complain about stuff when they see a typo and when I write something on social online. And I'm sure there's many, many more people who will never say it to me or who will never say it publicly, but like they've made assumptions about my intelligence because of the frequency of my typos. I'm very sure that's a thing. I'm even sure, not even sure, like I've experienced, I remember when like one time I went to a job interview and like they gave me like a written task to do or something like that. So those that know me know that I don't handle paper, I refuse, I will type it up. And that's a dyslexic thing for me. Like that's one way that typing helps me to solve most of my dyslexia issues, but they forced me to do this written like type of thing. And then they judged me then on like the speed of my, the speed of my writing and the typos and grammar mistakes. And I'm just like, this is irrelevant to the job that you're hiring me to. But like, and then I realized I'm not even, I know that's probably even breaking the law if I'm honest with you. Like I could probably see them, but it's not that deep. But in my head, I was just like, just they still live in a world where they're judging people by things that don't matter. And as a result, they lost, they literally just pushed out one of the potential best hires they could have made because of their backwards thinking. But so much of the world still operates in that way where they'll see your weaknesses, they'll see the things you're bad at or they'll see your limitations. And then they'll ignore all of the massive range of strengths that you bring to the table. So yeah, like there's a valid reason for people to often time to keep it to themselves. And like as a, like you've mentioned that company, but as a leader yourself when you're hiring people and you're looking at people, how do you make that decision that outside of all these other things that it's like blatantly could become, you know, could cause some type of delay or stuff like that. This person is still the right person for the team or I'm gonna take a chance on them. Like how do you make that decision? I think it's natural to me because like I have the empathy for it because I've been there, I've lived it and I'm still living it. Like I said, I'm still will be judgeable opportunities right now based on a number of factors out of my control. So like the way I see it is like, can you do the job that I need you to do and can you do it well? That's it. I literally do not care about any other thing you've got going on. Like if you can do this well and you're not gonna be disruptive to stuff like the culture that I'm trying to create and stuff like that, like your heart and character's in the right place, then yeah, no, I'll work with that. It's cool. Like if you need to, if you happen to do all of your work at 3 a.m. in the morning then the job get done, right, cool. It's not a problem. Like do you have five full-time jobs? Did you do the work I need you to do? Screaming. Like I literally don't care. As long as you do the work, that's really it. Okay, now I hear that. I hear that. Yeah, you've made me think about something because a lot of people say that I, the way I speak is very clear and very simple words, but it's because that's how I can struggle sometimes to formulate things in my head. And it just, it's easier for me to just like use the most simple words. And so I've looked at that as like a negative thing. But then like later on in life, people are like, oh, you speak so clearly. I can understand everything you say. And it's like, oh, okay. So it actually is a, like some people will see that as a positive thing. It's not, yeah. So you just made me think about that. It's like, yeah. I didn't even notice it. Yeah, seriously. No, I've never noticed it. Wow. Do you know what I notice? What do you notice? That you're a living amazing producer. Oh, thank you. You see, yeah. That's, I literally, that's all I care about. Like, do you do that well? Are you happy? Do you have the right culture? Yeah. And yeah, that's, if you do, then how much do you cost? And then that's the only other question I need to know. Yeah. No, I hear that. That's cool. But yeah, this has been really lovely. And it's, I'm excited to, for us to do this every so often, based on the type of guests and the themes that we keep seeing popping up, just to get to know you more. Yeah. Because you're a great listener. And you give, you give the guests, I think as an interviewer, you have to give the guests the space to talk. But you as an entity, by yourself, you need the space to talk. And for us to learn more about you. So yeah, it's been lovely. Hopefully I will follow the advice or your instructions and I'll, over time, I will become a better interviewer or host. And with that, begin to input more in the conversations. Like, I'm aware that when you guys do what's the current interviews that I'm very silent. You're not silent because you're engaged. But it's, I mean, we have a lot of, we're picking people who got stories to tell, you know? So it is what it is, but, you know, yeah, we'll definitely get there. We'll get there. I'll become a better host over time. That's the goal. Yeah, we have to continuously excel, so that's it. But yeah, this has been lovely. I've really enjoyed this. Have you enjoyed it? 100%. Yeah, looking forward to this one. Is there anything you wanted to say about leadership that we haven't actually said? We have like a few, like two minutes? Well, it's been an hour or no. Oh, and an hour on the, on the... Wow, okay. I think let's just leave it there. Yeah, okay, cool. All right then. All right, I mean, see you on the other side. Cool. Cool, all right. Cool. How are you feeling? Good. Good, I'm glad. Get you ready, because we've got another recording in a few hours. Thank you for tuning in to today's episode. We release a new episode every Sunday, so make sure that you subscribe and follow us so that you never miss out. If you'd like some more inspiration while you wait for the next new episode, then check out the recommendation above. Don't forget to follow us on social media and you can send us a question or dilemma that you'd like us to answer on the podcast. This is Club Williams. You've been watching Behind the Dreams and we look forward to seeing you at the next Dream Nation event.