 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. We have with us Dr. Usha Ramnathan and we are going to discuss what is being called the cashless economy, the less cash economy and so on. Usha, you are the first one to actually flag this for us that this might not be just what the government is saying, but the intention could be the demonetization of the notes could really be a move towards making it a quote-unquote entirely digital economy. How did you see this? I think part of the reason that it became, it was clear to me even before demonetization happened that something was going, that something was certainly going to happen in relation to a cashless economy is because I have been following the UID project quite closely. And between about 2014 and 2015 there was a hiatus and except for pushing everyone on to getting onto the UID system, it wasn't clear where it was headed. But I think in the past 7-8 months especially it's been perfectly clear that they were headed towards digitizing and bringing in things like FinTech companies and disrupting the banking system so that the Digitech companies would be able to take this over as an opportunity. The essential part of it is this cashless, present-less, et cetera, et cetera. This is basically, Codity was really a precursor to trying to move the entire economy to digital platforms and therefore also make it a part of formal economy. Actually it's interesting, both the UID project and this cashless project which is built on the UID project as of now, both these have certain common themes that we've been unraveling. And one of those is that it's built on the shoulders of the poor. We were told in the UID project that the poor don't have an identity and therefore they need to have it to give the poor an identity. But very soon we found that it wasn't the identity that was being spoken about at all, but an identity platform that had been created on which many apps could be developed. So the whole thing was about creating opportunities for business. And that's what we find here too. In the cashless, when they talked about cashless, it was about technology companies creating new businesses for themselves. The second common feature that we found was that in the UID too, it started off as talking about it being voluntary and very quickly it became a coercive thing. When we look at the cashless, paperless, present-less and we look at what the UID system did, we find a repeat of certain of these patterns. So we knew that coercion would come someday in putting us onto the cashless system. So do you see that essentially this is in fact is going to help the big industries, the organized sector as against the informal sector which they have been there in competition? I understand that the informal sector means a certain something when we speak about it, which is really the informal sector. I'm not sure that it's a binary between the informal sector and large industry. The technology world is very happy with the idea of startups and outsourcing. That's how they work. And you see that the UID whole, UID project was like that. They started up and then they outsourced. Never mind what crap you get in that process but you build up a database on that and then you worry about it later. What they are trying to replace it with is a large number of startups which are technology oriented and which will be done to create monopolies. So I'm not sure that it's only going to be the large guys. The large guys are being told you better start functioning like the startups do because that's where we meet. And there are different kinds of convergences that I see happening. For instance between mobile companies and banking companies, between payment gateways and banks. There are various kinds of arrangements that are emerging. The GSTN for instance being handed over to... You say what GSTN is. GSTN of course is the goods and services tax network. There's a lot of discussion that's happened in public about the goods and services tax. And whether in the federal structure, how do you locate it, how much taxation should be there. Very few people have talked about what the back office is. So the Tag Up Committee report, the technology advisory group on unique projects which was... The report came out in 2011 January with Mr. Nilakani as the chairperson had said how governmental data would be made into the data of private companies. How it would be handed over and that they would then become naturally monopolies. And so the power of the state to gather data of various kinds would be used and then it would be handed over to these private companies set up for that purpose and then they would make profit out of it. One part of it is the new digital monopolies that could emerge as a direct beneficiary of getting into either the UID kind of infrastructure, the GSTN or in this case the cashless infrastructure. That's one part of it. But this is the other part of it that there is a whole informal sector which runs on cash. Now that sector, if everything is to be made digital, quote unquote, what happens to those people who are really running today a cash economy. And they are not black money, they are small people. There are two kinds of people who get completely not talked about at all when they are talking cashless. And it's also interesting that those two are informal workers and the whole informal structure system and farmers. Actually farmers, the agriculture is not even mentioned by these people. It's only said GDP according to the economists, so therefore the government doesn't seem to matter. And the one that is recognized and being thrown out in this process is manufacturing. They are actually saying that manufacturing is unimportant. There might be a little manufacturing here and there but it's irrelevant. It's only services. Now this is not the imagination of a government. This is the imagination of a certain set of industries, of persons, a certain set of businesses. So that business interest is what is pushing this imagination. Completely with you when you say, well, all this is happening. This is disrupting the existing payment gateways, the banks, et cetera, et cetera. And this whole infrastructure is being created for intake companies. No issues on that. But when you talk of demonetization, it's not the small group around Mr. Nilekade who can demonetize the economy. It's really something else has moved the quote unquote government imagination if you will. And that is really to do away with cash for x, y, z reasons or to move the informal economy and really move it to quote into formal channels. Let me just make a distinction between demonetization and cashless. Demonetization has provided an opportunity for cashless. I'm not sure demonetization was done only for cashless. Mr. Modi's imagination has been what why make the connection is not that the UIDAI team has asked for demonetization, but that they have been building up there. I'll just mention those. They are beneficiaries of demonetization, probably the bigger beneficiary. I'm not even sure of that. And I'll tell you why in a minute. But just to mention a third institution, it's called the iceberg. And this is a round table of software professionals, professional industry people. And there, you know, they've been hosting those who are creating the India stack. They call themselves volunteers who are just creating this and evangelizing it back to government. So what we do know is that over a period of time, there has been the cash, the idea of cashless, paperless, presenseless has been taken into the government. And there is a like the target proposes as a partnership between the government and business. So they were moving towards this. But if you hear what the UIDAI people were saying before, you find that they were expecting this to happen between three and five years by adoption of many of these systems. So that you move towards definitely a less cash and a much less cash economy. But with the clear intention that it should be done in such a way that we leave digital footprints everywhere and that they can convert our data into cash. I agree. Mr. Modi's agenda in bringing in demonetization was different from his introduction of cashless. But because this preparation had been done, I think I don't think he got his timing right on cashless. You know, I'm reminded of the emergency as you would also remember that at that time it was Nassbanti. And there are a lot of people who were people who would say family planning should be done, who are happy that it was being done forcibly. I find that those who are evangelizing family planning on those days and went along with Nassbanti very similar to the people you're talking about who think, okay, this may not be the best thing, but it's still an opportunity. And even if there are costs, how does it matter? We should still get something going. So I do really see Nodbanti and Nassbanti in some sense close parallels. There's definite parallel, but there's one additional thing here, which is this thing of the panopticon beyond the prison. See, what this digital does, and which is why I think Mr. Modi is so happy to adopt it, is that it's not only businesses who get access to all this information about it. I mean, just think about it. People keep saying privacy is no great shakes, but let's not forget that it is in the context of these kinds of projects that the government has gone to the court and said people of this country don't have a right to privacy. Forget about fundamental right. They've said we don't have a right to privacy. And what are they asking us to do now? They are saying make everything that you do, make it leave a footprint. We should be able to track what you're doing because if you don't let us do it, it means there is something criminal about you. And we're coming at midway term now. So demonetization, I think one of the major reasons that they did it, or that Mr. Modi did it anyway, was to try and paralyze all his other political opponents, many of whom I've been having, many of whom I'm sure had cash and which they could not have disposed of in that time. So it will take a long time for them to recoup. That's the expectation. And I certainly think that that was one of the political reasons why it was done. But I think there is also this need at this point to collect as much data as he can about individuals across individuals, businesses, across the country by the time the next election comes in. And so I think he did it opportunistically now. But I also think that I don't think he understands enough for him to know what a big mistake he's made. Demonetization is not the only mistake. This is a far bigger mistake and he's going to have to pay a really heavy price for this one. Well, the final point here is that we have lost our right to our own money. That's what really has been done at the moment. But if I can just make it a little more dire, I think this is the first time we've had policies. Because of the need for biometrics, large numbers of people are getting excluded from basic, even things like rations and their pensions. Rajasthan has provided so many examples of the kind and people are dying. We are not noticing it because they are dying far away from us, but those of us who have gone in and seen, we know that they are dying. Now in demonetization, you've actually seen them die. It shocks me and I don't know I'm old enough not to be shocked by these things, but obviously I'm not. It shocks me that even death doesn't stop people from being glib about policies like this. What is ultimately going to matter? Freedom doesn't matter. Liberty doesn't matter. Your privacy doesn't matter. Civil liberties are all useless. Life doesn't matter today. That's the point we've reached and that's a scary place to reach. Forget democracy, for any society. Thank you very much, Usha. We'll come back to you on discussions on the UID, Rajasthan and biometrics another time. I think that's an issue we need to discuss as well. Sure. This is all the time we have today in NewsClick. Do watch other episodes of NewsClick. Come to our website and also see our Facebook page.