 Welcome back, it's still the breakfast and plus TV Africa. We'll be taking our first conversation for the day and Kaduna is, you know, as taken from Bonner in the past few days. Now terrorists have attacked Gidam train station along the Abuja-Kaduna rail track. Sources say the terrorists may have planted IEDs on the tracks, forcing the train heading to Abuja from Kaduna to Astab. Now this is a second attack within 24 hours along the same axis. At least seven persons have yet killed when terrorists attacked that train on Monday at Duttsi village. Now the Monday incident happened around 7.45 p.m. at Duttsi village in Chikun, local government area. Just a few kilometers from the Rigasa train station which is the last transit point of the train. Meanwhile, President Mohammed Buhari has met with service chiefs and heads of security agencies following the terror attack on the Abuja-Kaduna train that left many dead and several injured. Now following the briefs, Buhari directed the immediate conclusion of all the processes for the implementation of the integrated security surveillance and monitoring solution. Joining us now to discuss the situation in Kaduna state is a security expert. He is Ambassador Roy O'Amyen Ohideva. Many thanks for joining us on the breakfast on PLOS TV Africa. Thank you very much for the opportunity. Yes, it is indeed our pleasure. Roy, let me just start it by asking really, in our pre-chat we're talking about how Kaduna state is a state that has a whole lot of military presence. We have, you know, we have the school here in Jaji. We have a lot of military installation in Kaduna state. But all of a sudden it seemed to be like a hotbed for a lot of attacks in recent days, or not just recent days last year. We are aware of the train incident that happened. One would have thought that with all of this consent with the attack that happened over the weekend, another one on Monday. Surprisingly we saw yet another attack just yesterday. Roy, where are we really headed? What are these bandits? What are these terrorists trying to say to the government and the people of Nigeria? Well, I think the whole country is mourning right now because if you actually look at the quality of life that we're lost, going by the broadcast that we have been seeing, the doctors, the lawyers, you know, these are prime Nigerians in their prime, productive and professional. Well trained, well groomed to support the economy and the professional sector. You know, so it's painful. I grew, I grew up, I can say I grew up in Kaduna because when I joined the army, I, Kaduna was my first posting. I served in one Mechanising Funtry Division for nine years from 1990 to 1999. And in that nine years, we were so blessed to have all those military installations. You know, so when there was no GSM phone, you know, so when something is happening, people start running, everybody just starts running. But the way the military formations are positioned, you can lock down the state. You know, from Zalia, you can shut down the road that leads out from Sabun Tacha, you can shut down with the artillery barracks there. You know, so many military solutions in the one Mechanising Funtry Division was built at Kao, Kao leads to Mandu, Mandu leads to the airport, leads to outside of Kaduna. So also that strategic positioning of military structures, you know. And when you look at the state itself, Kaduna is divided into mainly Christian zone, Muslim zone, because of all the prevalent riots, religious trackers, crisis, conflict. You know, so the Christians are suppressing, the Muslims are suppressing, then there is the Banawa area where everybody, so many people can stay together. So one would be surprised if we have not come to reasoning that Kaduna would be a hotbed, a hotbed in the sense that any religious conflict in the country, Kaduna usually is one of the bloodbaths. It's usually one of the place that people are killed. So the government over the years, I'm talking about 30 years now, must have been blind, must have been comatose, not to have been built in resilience and initiating prison in all those areas we now freely call on police areas. You know, there are so many bush parts, there are so many forest areas, there are so many places where civilization has not gone into. So people cluster in areas where there is a barrack, where there is a police formation, people gather around there and start to build civilization. We refuse to see all of it. Then when we started to know that, okay, it is possible for people to hide in such places. Some of us traveled out of this country, I did some drone training in San Jose in California and USA. We came back to Nigeria, we went to Canada again, we did some training with our money as a military, as a veteran, you know, and so many other people, security professionals, gave proposals to the government. And like some of us, we will refer you to the consultant, to the manufacturer of the product, to beat all the embargoes of government and process the procurement procedure. Because the timeline has time bars. So once something is time barred, that means the insecurity dynamic has overtaken the opportunity of that gadget, that strategy, that structure to be able to mitigate the insecurity. So you need to advance. So Kaduna itself is a base for military, police and even the government. So many of our leaders in Nigeria today, they have their houses in Kaduna. So many of those in the National Assembly and big places. So why have we restricted assets from providing the solution? So I mean, it brings us back to that question because once upon a time, I remember when Chewusani raised the consent in the house about, you know, the Kaduna Abuja Road. And then he was counted by his colleague, a senator from, you know, Katsina, if I'm not mistaken, Ahmed Kayita, who said he was misleading the public. Now, 4.27 trillionaire in the past seven years spent on defense. Some people would make some argument saying, oh, spending budget and defense is not necessary. It doesn't cater for, you know, every other security architecture. Some people have also argued that, you know, the world that you have this terrorist fighting, it's not a conventional war, it's a guerrilla war. So where does the problem lie? Is it in the fact that we don't have the resources? We don't have the manpower, we're willing to fight this? Or is the fact that we don't even understand what's going on? What exactly is going on? Why haven't we? Because it feels like you have this terrorist coming in bikes. I mean, for the incident, unfortunate incident that has happened in Kaduna in the past few days, and the reports that we're getting is that most of you find out that they are on bikes and then they have the AK-47. So looking at the full military, you know, architecture and having the pleas and everything intact, having this group of peasants who you would think would have less or no equipment overwhelming the entire country? Well, it's funny, you know, like you have narrated right now, you know. So you didn't listen to the minister of transport, I don't know if you have that case, maybe you played some time today. I listened. He mentioned that he has requested $3 billion or thereabouts to procure surveillance equipment for the rail line. And it has not been approved. You see, sometimes in Nigeria, we just take human life and throw it away. And the people that do that walk freely, talk carelessly on social media, on television and walk away. And you see, it was like it was laughing or something. Look, you requested for surveillance equipment to secure a rail technology that you, you and so many others are thronging and was able to secure government approval. So to present and manufacture and bring in China and so many other people. Who gave you the approval to start running the rail line when the security procurement has not been approved? Who gave you the approval to run the rail line if I'm processing a procurement for my country as a minister and work beyond $3 billion and it has not been approved? That means it is something by able to secure the risk parameters that are envisioned. Then every day we hear that the rail line, the train have been compromised. We hear, I use the train also. Then you are still not stopped the train from moving and still the government secured with the security projection that you have on the deck. Then who are those that have delayed it? So both the minister and those that have delayed it. What next? You see, during abaccaritas I asked, how many IGs did you start on that when you was going on air? Who is comfortable? How many IGs will be comfortable? Now we are looking at ministers and ministries and government officials that have refused to proceed and destroy a security surveillance system that will secure lives of Nigerians, innocent Nigerians. Now who is going to be comfortable? That is aside. Now come down to this other area where you mentioned about the amounts of money that have been released for security over the years. Let me ask a simple question. We heard that some soldiers stole money from their organ, that stole money from his organ which is the government, the military. And those soldiers ran away with the money and the officer was brought before the government and he was doing as if he's dead. Up till this moment, I don't know if that officer, if he is comfortable, who else wears the supporting lines in his culpability? Then you go back to MDGC because we are talking about Kazuna today. All the Niger Delta area had no roads, no rails, no airports, no facilities. All the money into MDGC was the fund through the MDGC and the dividends and the benefit did not reach the people. Now, who is responsible? Your eyes and your mind will now move to the ASPC, the ICTC. All of those agencies are caught up in struggles of superiority. Is this the thing that is the head of the agency who is going down, who is coming up? Which politician are we supporting? Who are we bringing down? People, the president, made a speech recently. Dr. Rai, oh, he didn't... He didn't have anything. I want us to look at it in this light because these are consents that we have raised. I mean, Nigerians have actually raised. We have created the fact that... Yes, we have created the fact that is it that we don't have the resources? That's on the one hand. Is it that we don't, you know, it's an issue of having the will power, the political, let's not say political, but just the will power, you know, to tackle these bandits, terrorists, whatever our name we have tagged them. And on the other hand, is it that we don't understand the situation that we're faced with? And so we're not employing the right tactics or, you know, the knowledge. We don't understand because if we look at it, we would understand that, you know, it's not a conventional war that we're faced with at the time. It's a guerrilla war. And so you have the sabotage, you know, the ambush and what have you. So what exactly is the problem? Well, you see, the problem we have in Nigeria is that those that held the country together, there are people positioned to control the oil environment. Those are people that have personal oil blocks. There are people positioned to control the financial system. Those are people that have businesses that control the finance of the country. There are people that are positioned to deliberate and negotiate on international relationship. Those are people that are positioned in our embassy. Now, all of these types of people are giving you a rough blanket. I don't want to mention names. They are negotiating for comfort. So many of them need to cover up backlogs of cases of a malfunction government that they run. These are people that are using the unfortunate Nigerians that are poor, poor education, poorly positioned to instigate violence. We started with tribal cases. You will hear that the Shakiris and the Jura are fighting. You will hear that the Jukun and the Tils, they are fighting. You know, we went to religious matters. You will hear the Christians and Muslims. All these are issues created to destabilize the government and get a people that benefit from all of it. And we didn't know that gradually, the enemies that we are building will begin to have their own things done. They will begin to reason in their own direction. They will begin to cover up from the control of the Godfather regime system. And right now, the Muslims, the hooligans, the bandits that we call the terrorists, they had a team day to have people to recruit from the destabilized Nigerians to swell violence. So where do we go from there? The police that we are supposed to use, they are praying for better things. They are threatening to go on strike. The military that we are supposed to use, you know, the military look at the veterans. If I'm going outside of the military, what comfort do I have? Now, these veterans are crying every day. We are coming out for another protest very soon in this April because all the agreements we have shared. Now, if you look at the other agencies, the DSS, the ESPC, they are all controlled by cases that could hurt them for promotion or where we're going. Remember that I said this, that it was a wrong example to make those chiefs of staff. Immediately become ambassadors. Now you make them ambassadors, they are still not answerable for all these millions and trillions of money that we have voted for security. Now the next set of heads of security, they are looking for comfort. So whoever is in power that can give them comfort, they will be playing for the music of that setting, of that group. So we are in trouble. And I'm sure the God that we serve in Nigeria is the one to rescue. All right, we need God to rescue us, but then it is the responsibility of government to ensure the safety of life and property. Merci indeed, that's the question as per body language, the financial, where we're going to do all of that. I don't think those are really the issues because we know what to really do because for the president to have called the service chiefs and directed immediate conclusion of all processes for the implementation of the integrated, I'm just quoting him, security, surveillance and monitoring solution for Diabuja to Kadunari and by extension to the Lagos, Ibadan Expressway. So over time they were supposed to have done all this and they knew they needed to do all this thing. And now the Senate is asking Buhari to declare full scale war against bandits who wants military to bombard them, terrorists that enclave. My question right now is what next? Because it's as though these terrorists that these bandits have become so emboldened, the roads are not secure. The Kadunabuja Highway is not secure. Over the weekend it was an incident at the airport. Now the train, so the average resident, what are we trying to tell them? How did they move about? What should they be saying to them? How do we all lay their fears because right now it's as though they're just asking them to just sit in their homes, just to stay back because they cannot walk free, they cannot move free either on the roads or the rail tracks or even by air. So where do we go from here Roy? I am happy just seeing you are a veteran in the industry and then we have been speaking together for the past 15 years if I'm not mistaken. Now let's take that 15 years out of the trunk of like 40 years that we have started this dilapidation. Now for the past 15 years we have been giving advice to free, no circumstances, nothing. Now a responsible government would have sat down and put papers, sent to paper and picked out reasonable timelines and strategies. Now where we need to go now as I speak to you is everybody needs to get their freedom. That's number one, number two, everybody needs to believe in Nigeria. You see it's not only the agency, the policemen, the bribe collectors is given by Nigeria. You know, the military, the destruction they cause, they are given money by civilians, by Nigerians. You know, Nigerians need to speak up. We need to obey as we need to as traffic lights move. We need to go back to all the necessary triangles that we give us, peaceful cohesion, peaceful coexistence. Then the agencies of government, they need to also work part two, then the institutions of government. You know, it is a blanket situation that we need right now. You can't walk on the police without the people themselves believing that they need a good police. You can't walk on the people without the police believing that they must deploy excellent policy. You know, you can't walk on the government if you don't vote in necessary diplomatic people to handle the diplomacy that we need now. Let me ask a question in your question. Where is the national orientation agent? Where are the people that work in the national orientation agent? In our DRC bus last time, we don't even have emergency numbers written. A girl was chatting with friends and family to secure her life. You know, in the train, there are no emergency numbers written. People were going to tweet that I have been shot. I am, I may not survive. You know, we are the orientation. We are the primary school, the secondary school, the boys' house. All these governors that are going to sit down somewhere and sit and hang out at a junction because of 2023. Can't they go to a primary school now and start a robot boys' house and girls' guide? Can't they go to a secondary school and start an anti-course group and fund it with enough facilitators, resources, to be coming to the secondary school to talk to them? Can't they go to a university and look for students that are excellent to talk to them from 200 levels and help them to get scholarship abroad? These are things that you begin to touch the people to make them believe that the government is for the people and by the people. But where we are now, it's difficult to put the politicians' foreview on the people. Their foreview is on the words that they will generate, so they are trained in lascivious things. So it's unfortunate where we are, we need to look at the people. Everybody in government, I'm happy for Anambra's state right now. I pray that they don't derail because if they start, it will become a movement. So the people of Nigeria have ideas. They have products. Who is investing in it? Where is that young man that did the drone that we are watching on TV? Where is the young man that did the transformer that we are watching? I have the video. Where is the young man that did the helicopter, a car, a young man who sponsored them? We are the politicians now campaigning, going to the markets to eat Akara with Akara sellers. Why can't you look for productive Nigerians and begin to support them? We must support productive Nigerians. We must support Nigerian dignity. We must support Nigerian manufacture. We must support the Nigerian dream. We must believe in Nigeria. Every Nigerian must become patriotic and we must stand together against bad governance. We must come together against the pollution of ideas. We must support the dream, the goal, the aspirations and the passions of Nigeria so that tomorrow we will look back and be happy. If not, all day we will be troubled. Okay, so just as we close this conversation down now and tackling the security concerns in Kaduna state and in Nigeria, we need to understand. First, we know that, I mean, you have questioned and queried some of the concerns that was raised by the Minister for Transportation, Rotimi Amici, talking about the surveillance cameras. Brilliant as that sounds. Another question would be how does that solve the problem? We have seen situations where you have the international organization, some international organization pointing out, including the US. I mean, pointing out and mentioning names of those who are sponsors of terror in Nigeria. Even the government in itself, the federal government says, we know these people. And you also have state governments saying, oh, yes, they know that this terrorist and this bandits, whatever tag we have given them, are collecting taxes in some state. We have acknowledged all of these things but what are we doing with the information? So one will begin to query how having a surveillance camera, we see that all the time with the CCTV camera. It's okay to have it there, but you have anyone mining it. It's okay to have it and understand what do you do with the video if it records everything. So, but that's on the one hand. On the other hand, the question is, do we even know these people? Who are these people? What are they fighting for? What are their costs? Who are they? It's another thing, yes, we know there's been a lot of back and forth. We say they are bandits and then there's an order to prescribe them as terrorists. And so we're announcing the terrorists, but do we really know these people? Hello, Dr. Roy, can you hear us? I can hear you, but you are just cracking a little. I can hear you. Okay, so the question here is, who are these people? If we know these people. Yes. If we know these people, if we... Know the agenda. Yeah. There were names that were mentioned in Dubai before even Malami came on board. And you see, this is our attorney general. It's just a strategic disappointment to Nigeria because the judiciary is one of the greatest weapons of any country. Look at America. Why do you think Donald Trump would not do the defense in one place or two? Because the judges will bring one thing up tomorrow, bring something else and he's fighting with them. You know, the judiciary is something that would hold even the agencies because it keeps the constitution in the core view of everyone. Now, if you put somebody like Malami as our attorney general in the country, what do you think are his pedigrees? What are the things he has achieved so far? He's even begging that comments he made over Abagyari were not so. If you didn't make those comments and you find them in public space, who is comfortable? So you cannot even deal with media that you said misquoted you. How can you deal with people that they mentioned that are terrorists? Because whatever the ESPC is doing, ICPC, all of them we go through that Ministry of Justice that you see before they will begin to maybe get us over. Then you will not be hearing things about what party, who is that party. That is the Nigerian context. So I think that Malami as an attorney general is a strategic loss to Nigeria. If we have a good justice system and there is an effect controller in that seat and you cannot see clearly. So quickly educate and expressly inform penalties on cases. Because now these people that we mentioned that are terrorists, what do you think they will be doing now? Because even their businesses have not been closed, their accounts have not been closed. So are we not encouraging others to say because they will go to them and say how are you compromising the government? And you will know who is compromising the government. And the second thing about Nigeria is that when this strategic loss of an attorney general leaves the seat today, you will now see that nothing will be done. Nobody will ask reasonable questions. Nobody will ask for accountability. And there will be no penalties for malfunctioning that office. So every other office in Nigeria, they just run on their own pro bono. So we are in trouble if we can't put our justice system in place. These people mentioned as terrorists cannot begin to be seen in handcuffs, cannot begin to be seen facing court cases on television. Even the advertisements, all the pictures that you see on TV, you will see them sitting down on the chair and on the media. Nigeria is compromised. We are compromised institutionally. We are compromised in our agencies. We are compromising our people focus. So we have a big problem. And we must act. Anywhere that we need to start, we must act. All right, Ambassador Orhidyev. Don't you think we need to still question the manner and approach that we have been going about this issue of insurgency or anti-banditry or anti-terrorism in Nigeria or in Kaduna state? Because over time, you know, when we hear talks of negotiating with these bandits, the terrorists, giving them amnesty, don't you think that these are maybe in a way emboldened, these killers, these criminals, these marauders who kill innocent Nigerians just anyhow without even the slightest thought or second thought. Don't you think we need to question the way we have gone about it? Don't we need to revisit in our approach to this counter-terrorism in Nigeria? You know, thank you very much for bringing us into that life because it's one of the problems we also have because some of these sacred terrorists, with sacred bandits, they become jobless outside your lagas period of trying to change their ideology. You kick them out. So when you kick them out, they get a bite and they go back into the bush, you know? So we have advised, we said, number one, when, because of human rights, international human rights laws, international human rights law, Nigeria is constrained not to maybe get into a place that's bombing it or people submit themselves to say we have come to present ourselves. We have renaissance on banditry, terrorism. Nigeria is constrained, so just not shoot at them like that. You know, so you need to take them in. But we advise, when you take such people in, why do you give them better living conditions than the IDP with the display? You see IDP comes. You hear stories every day of the struggle for food, for medical, for life, you know? And you look at the people that display the Nigeria to become an internally displayed person. You will see them, they will tell you they are re-structuring their ideology, they are inciting refugees, they are eating balance diet, you know, playing games at will, you know? So something is wrong there. You know, that's number one. Number two, we have mentioned, let me just say it on air, we have proposed that the government can actually put in modes within those that have submitted themselves and begin to get information from them, actually enable intelligence, even while they are seated and use those intelligence to go for the buses, to go for their supply routes. So many of them are arrested, they say they are the ones that supply fuel, they are the ones that supply arms and ammunition. What information did they give to you? Did you action on them to protect Nigeria by blocking those supply routes, financial supply routes? These are the people they said are supplying finances. So what did you do by putting listening devices within those places so that as they communicate, you begin to extract information and well and destabilize the ones in the bush, in the forest area? What did you do when they were coming out? So say we are going to empower you, we give you phones, we give you everything, we give you which we may track because I know they are not doing it so I can say it here and see how you can use that to follow them because you already have their number, the NCC, the communication line, everything is for the government. So we can track them, know where they went to, follow up. Nobody follows up. After your tenure in the radicalization camp, you just be released. Some of them come and apply, I want to be a police officer, I want to be a military officer and you say they are Nigerians, they are represented and you put them back. They are the most that are bringing down the agency today because once between twice time, they are into it, they are into it once and for all. They have this internal sympathy for terrorism, for bad deeds. So we are making a big mistake keeping those people to live better than IDK. We are making a big mistake. All right, thank you Ambassador Roy. We don't track, we don't follow, we don't monitor where they are. Thank you so much Ambassador Roy. This issue of security is actually a very passionate one. We can just go on about it for the next couple of hours but for time constraints, we must end this conversation at this. We must say a very big thank you to you joining us today to bring some solutions to all of these concerns in Kaduna State. We do appreciate your time. Thank you sir. All right. I will just take a very quick break in a moment. I will come back and talk about what went on in Abuja yesterday, the fallout of the Nigerian Ghana clash. In a moment, we'll be right back. Just stay with us.