 happening with human rights around our world on Think Tech Live, broadcasting from our downtown studio in Honolulu, Hawaii, and Moana, New York. Today we're looking at freedom of compassionate conscience and religion, Article 18, transformative thought and beliefs for a better world. Today we're looking at the important issue that has been included since for Inkling Delano Roosevelt's Four Freedom Speech, that notion of freedom of worship. And we're joined today by Beth Plissman. Beth, thank you for joining today and allowing us to explore this important article. Certainly, Joshua. It's great to be with you. I have the pleasure of serving as the United Nations representative for the US-based Loretto community, a community of progressive Catholic women, religious, and people of all faiths, who are active mostly in the United States. And we also have sisters in Pakistan. So deeply grateful to be with you today for this important conversation. Thank you. You know, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights provides the power of ideas to initiate change in the world, and the UDHR outlines opportunities for a new direction rooted in inherent dignity and amenable rights for dynamic sustainable development in social democracy. It's been great to partner with you at the UN on these important issues. Can you share with me why this issue is so important in international human rights law and how it's central and core to the global arena? Certainly. I'll start by saying I'm not a lawyer. By any stretch of the imagination, I'm trained actually as an ecological ethicist. But as a person of faith, it's very important to me that not only are my own faith traditions and beliefs respected, but also those of other world religions, faith traditions, and philosophical traditions as well. I think one of the areas where we're seeing this important right being pushed right now is actually what's happening in Dubai City in the United Arab Emirates right now. The climate talks are going on this next week. And what we're not seeing is as much presence of Indigenous peoples as I would like to see. And that's one area where really I think many of the world's religions could be pushing ourselves even further in terms of respect for an appreciation of others' rights. And this has huge legal ramifications because much of the world's property law is based in the tradition I come from, which is the Catholic tradition. Much of it goes back at its root to what was called the doctrine of discovery, which was this series of pronouncements by the Pope called the papal bulls that happened in the Middle Ages that laid the groundwork for Christian domination of Indigenous peoples and other philosophical and religious beliefs that are beginning to fall apart right now. And this will have huge effects and changes on our legal systems moving forward. So I think this article of the 30th of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, this article is really key because we need to re-examine and re-look at how we define religion and belief. Well, that's an excellent point. We know that really when you look at what happened at that time that you're describing really the 15th century looking at the papal bulls, the doctrine of discovery, even the case that was brought to Valladolid, Spain, where they're looking at do Indigenous peoples have a soul. And the sad part of course is Las Casas understood, of course they do in that we shouldn't measure people by a Catholic yardstick but more the values and beliefs of the Indigenous people. But then you also had Sepulveda argue on the other side more of an Aristotle notion. So it is great to get with doctrine of discovery to look even at some of how that was brought up in other countries such as Australia, on Terinolius with the Mabo case. And it's great that you're an environmental ethicist because it really boils down to ethics. And I think that's one thing we can look at when we look at religion and spirituality. It really should come to that aspect of how we treat one another and how we interact with each other. And that's that whole concept of Malama Honua here in Hawaii of to take care of each other and our earth and understanding all of that together. Yes, and it's incredibly important as well. At least it's been my experience at the United Nations that we all work together across perspectives, across the world religions, across philosophical perspectives. At least in New York City at UN headquarters, we find that any statement that we would like to make as a faith based organization, it's not only stronger when we collaborate with other faith based organizations or FBOs as we're called that are based in Catholicism, that's a good thing. But it's taken much more seriously by the United Nations when we work in collaboration with other faith groups across different religious or faith perspectives. Right now I happen to be one of the co-chairs of what's called the Committee of Religious NGOs. Yes, the acronym is CRINGO and yes, it does rhyme with bingo. Perhaps not the world's best acronym, but a fabulous group. And we have a very active climate working group. And whenever we make statements at the United Nations, it does have more impact because it's many of the world traditions and several philosophical perspectives as well, speaking as one on whatever the current topic is. Most recently, we were involved with a statement to the second meeting of the state's parties for the treaty for the prohibition of nuclear weapons. For example, we didn't enter faith statement for that event, which happened last week. So deeply appreciate the opportunity to work together across belief systems and perspectives and world religions. And when we started, you really brought up an important issue. We know that the UN Framework Commission on Climate Change Conference of Parties, 28th edition is just beginning in Dubai. And for the first time, there's a faith pavilion. You said many of your colleagues there maybe could share a bit why going to the climate summit is so important and how it relates to the perspective of faith and how we live with one another on our fragile planet. Oh, wow. Great question, Josh. Thank you. We just had a meeting about this this morning where we were checking in with one of our colleagues from the World Council of Church's Reverend Heinrich Grape who is on the ground in Dubai. It's incredibly important to be there and faith groups have been there since the beginning, having one thing that they do every year that is much appreciated by many is a Talanoa dialogue based on the model from Fiji of talking about where the challenges of where we are and how we got here and where we want to go across different faith traditions. And so there was a Talanoa dialogue last Thursday as COP 28 was kicking off. But this is the first year there's been a faith pavilion and it's a contested space and a contested opportunity, I think we could say, because the price tag was huge and most of it was paid for by the Muslim Council of Elders to which we are deeply grateful. But they are also working very, very closely with the UAE government. So some people were hoping that that would not in any way suppress what might be able to happen at the faith pavilion. So far, so good on that. But you know, COP has just gotten off the ground and part of our role as faith based organizations at the United Nations is basically be the world's conscience, right to let diplomats and governments know and especially huge multinational corporations know that we're watching and we're watching with the greater good in mind with concepts of the common good in mind. Yes, so so far, having a faith pavilion seems like a wonderful idea. The other danger that was just raised in our meeting today is just like there's greenwashing from a corporate perspective. And some people have now talked about youth washing or bringing out youth as token participants. Someone raised the concept that we hope doesn't happen of faith washing of groups at COP 28 being able to say, Oh, yes, we have all the world's religions on board. There is a faith pavilion and making it sound like we're in full support of all that's happening there, which we certainly are not in full support of things that do not immediately stop fossil fuel production. Those are the statements that at least two of the statements that we've signed on to talk about the need to talk about fossil ending fossil fuel production, not doing a few tweaks and fixes here and there and then continuing with business as usual. That's not what we need for the survival of our beautiful planet, the human species, and all the other species of life with with with whom we share this beautiful planet. And it's good that there is still peace at the new faith pavilion. I know the Pope was supposed to open it and share his message from his encyclicals, but was not feeling well, but it is good that we see that space open that really the people are being courageous to contest that space to make sure it remains. Article 18 focuses the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion, and to manifest one's religion and beliefs in teaching, practice, worship and observance. And article 18 is centered really around that freedom to worship that President Roosevelt talked about. Can you share what first inspired you to care about the issue and the first campaigns you were involved with? Yes, thank you so much. That's a great question, Joshua. I deeply appreciate it. For me personally, I grew up in the Catholic tradition in the Catholic faith. I am what could be called a cradle Catholic. And despite not ever seeing my gender reflected, not seeing women on the altar or on the altar or much involved with that particular religion, I grew up with a solid grounding and a love of the smells and the bells and all that wonderful ritual within Catholicism. But then as I went throughout my life and came to a realization of myself as a lesbian woman, always using that as an adjective rather than a noun because it's only one aspect of who I am in this world. But as I came to that realization of myself as a lesbian woman, while working as a Catholic campus minister, no doubt, after my college years, I prepared to leave the Catholic Church. I realized from the moment I came out, I would always lay more claim to the Catholic Church than it ever would to me. So I was, I actually had chosen to leave the Catholic Church and then as fate would have it, or perhaps some would say divine intervention, I was doing a paper on the Women's Church movement for a sociology of religion class and interviewed the sister of Loretto, Mary Peter Bruce, who was on the national board of the Women's Church movement at the time. This was, I think in early 1993. So, oh my gosh, 30 years ago, crazy. Anyway, Mary Peter started inviting me to things and told me all I wanted to know about the Women's Church movement and more and about how the Loretto community didn't just have sisters, but also had lay members. And she just gave me all kinds of interesting information and started inviting me to things. And that summer, I saw the Loretto sisters marching in the gay pride parade. And I thought, you know, maybe I need to rethink my tradition of origin. And so that was a hopeful moment for me when I realized the power of religion positively when taking a stand for human rights. And so for me, that helped me hang on to my religious tradition of origin. And I joined the Loretto community as a co-member in 1995. And if you would have told me 28 years ago, I'd still be not only a Loretto co-member, but representing them at the United Nations, I would have been very surprised. But so for me, LGBTQ rights were the pathway into the conversation about human rights and the freedom of religion and belief. But really over time, it's become much more about respecting Indigenous perspectives and learning and educating. We're a community of educators primarily, educating myself and others about different world religions and the wonderful different pathways that people have to understanding the world around us. It reminds me of our time together around the UN Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues that takes place every spring. But also you mentioned earlier about fossil fuels. And that reminds me of the Fossil Fuel Nonproliferation Treaty that we've been working together around the UN High-Level Political Forum every July with various voluntary national reviews and voluntary local reviews, but also most recently the UN General Assembly, we were at the Town Hall and multiple events looking at this Fossil Fuel Nonproliferation Treaty and its importance as we look at how we can protect our planet going forward. Yes, in retrospect, I should have worn my bright orange Fossil Fuel Nonproliferation Treaty t-shirt that I picked up at that event because we're also in the middle of 16 days of action between November 25th, the International Day to Eliminate Violence Against Women and Girls, and December 10th, the 75th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and orange is the color of that particular campaign. So orange, my orange t-shirt would have been perfect, but alas, I'm in green, but that's okay. But yes, that was a fabulous gathering that that Town Hall gathering in Brooklyn this past summer. My only disappointment is I went live on Facebook Live and I caught your great little five-minute intervention, and it was up on our Facebook page for a long time, but then it disappeared. And so my lack of technological knowledge, I did not seize it quickly enough for which I apologize, but I truly think the Fossil Fuel Nonproliferation Treaty is our best hope as a species for getting off our addiction to fossil fuels because it would be fast, it would be fair, it would be forever. And I know right now it's just a concept. It's not a treaty yet. It's an idea for the Fossil Fuel Nonproliferation Treaty put forward by the wonderful Canadian environmentalist, Zapora Berman, who I've heard through the grapevine is rocking COP28 right now. She's on fire. She is there doing programs right and left talking to diplomats. I've heard tell, this isn't official yet, but I've heard there's very positive energy from the Vatican that it might well sign on to the Fossil Fuel Nonproliferation Treaty idea in the near future. As Hawaii has done and California, they took the idea from the lead of Hawaii. So thanks to those of you there in Hawaii for taking the lead for the US on the Fossil Fuel Nonproliferation Treaty. But really, I think it's a great model, modeled on the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, and it would be something where I think the countries of the world could actually work together and agree to get ourselves off of fossil fuels. No, and it brings up so many exciting points. And we know more and more countries are adding on this week that Tuvalu and Vanuatu were the initial ones. But as they pointed out, 100 cities have logged in and they're calling this the COP of cities. So it's exciting to see the movement of municipal multilateralism and people coming together to really organize at the local level to have an impact at all the global levels. Maybe you can share with us, how do you actualize Article 18 and other actions you're involved with are the highlights that you've been involved with the Sisters of Loretta, but also the many other religious organizations, as you call them, they're at the UN doing this exciting work. And how do we take the voice of the people on the ground to that global level to make sure everyone's heard? A great series of questions. I would say within the Loretta community, we certainly cosine or sign on to statements around human rights. Very often, we've been very active in disarmament over the decades. We've been very vocal recently against gun violence here in the United States. We also do some work about gender equity, our Loretta feminist network. And personally, I'm involved with GERI, the Gender Equity Reconciliation International Organization, because we want to make things better for everyone, not just women and girls, but men and boys and people who don't want to choose a gender and who suffer discrimination. Because of that, Loretta has been very, very good at speaking out in those arenas as have many of the different world religions and faith organizations we work with through the Committee of Religious NGOs. In terms of who is doing Article 18 really, really well, I totally want to lift up the folks at the Bahá'í international community. I got to meet the Bahá'í folks back in the 1990s and have to admit that I've been consistently impressed over the decades with the work that they do around freedom of religion and belief. I know that many of the Catholic organizations we work with are experiencing a lot of persecution in India and some in Pakistan and other countries. So we do our best stand in solidarity with those, not only our Catholic brothers and sisters, but all of those who are experiencing faith-based persecution anywhere in the world, whether it be the situation at the Rohingya or religious minorities on other continents. Certainly, historically Loretta has also been very active in Ireland in the situations in Northern Ireland. So there are a multitude of different pathways, but in terms of practical action, the suggestions I would simply have for those watching the program is take some time and go to spiritual gatherings or worship ceremonies of different world religions or different faith traditions. Make sure that you have friends of different faith traditions and maybe common topics would be talking about COP28 or food, one of my other favorite topics. I think food is a great way to bring people together across cultures, across belief systems, across time zones, now that we can share meals virtually, although that's not the same as being there. And I would also lift up for folks in the US to learn more about Native Hawaiian culture. I had the pleasure of my first trip to Oahu this past year, thanks to one of our co-members, Rosemary Casey. I should say Dr. Rosemary Casey. I feel like I got another college degree by hanging out with Rosie for just about 10 days, but it was so wonderful to me to hear things I had learned a little bit about, but really didn't know much about it all. So mahalo and thanks to those of you in Hawaii who are enacting and sharing about the wonderful place-based Native Hawaiian values that lift up an ecologically sustainable pathway for all the rest of us to learn from. It's a true bio-regional model. It is amazing to be able to be here, home in Hawaii, in the most isolated landmass, but really in that culturally rooted consensus of collectiveness, of knowing that we're all one and we really have that kuleana, that responsibility to one another. And that really echoes the UDHR, which calls for this coalition of conscience centered on trust and transformation while honoring values, voice and vision, as you said, of the Kanaka Mali people. And on the 75th anniversary, it's important to reflect on the role of human rights in our daily lives and world affairs, as you so eloquently talked about, either over the dinner table in our democracy or in global diplomacy, such as at the COP. You also talked about Bahai, and that of course inspires me to think about the work they've been doing really around the UN summit of the future and trying to get people to have that forward approach, which of course builds on the Haudenosaunee or the Iroquois Confederacy, the six nations that came together bearing all their weapons under the Tree of Peace, but really that notion of seven generations, to think about what we do today and how it impacts generations down the line, which of course is core to indigenous culture. Maybe you can share a bit how you see the future of the right and maybe this summit of the future as important steps forward. Certainly the upcoming Summit of the Future in September 2024 will be an important stepping stone for the United Nations as we look at how to do things better, how to rethink the effectiveness of the UN itself and certainly how we build the collective will and ambition that we need to achieve the sustainable development goals. I think it's a very important moment and we need to lift it up in any and every way we can, both in the preparation for the event and the event itself. And I would encourage all your listeners to learn more about it and I have the feeling that you'll probably put some great links into the connection to this video where folks can go to learn more about the Summit of the Future. Yes, we look at the Summit of the Future. It's really important because it really looks at the origins, thinking about why the UN was created to end this gorge of war, but also a renewed spirit of San Francisco around the UN Charter, but that multilateralism where we understand that all nations have got to cooperate greater if we're going to save our globe and understand that we are living in a time of greater unity than anyone would ever imagine. And if we don't adopt this more wonderful notion of we instead of me, we can really see a crisis getting out of hand. And you did bring up the sustainable development goals and we had the UN SDG Summit and we've passed a halfway point. It's an exciting time coming up for what we can do because we have the tools, we have the resources. It just depends if we have the political will and the tenacity to make sure that we make sure we have a world for future generations. And my last word would be in that vein from that perspective, let's use social media to unite rather than divide. That's one tool in our country at least where I see lots of division, but I would encourage people to use it to educate others, use it to educate yourself, and use it to build unity, not for division. That's an excellent point, especially when we see how the world is. We have points out and illustrates how the interconnectedness of all these rights are, the freedom of thought, freedom of speech, freedom to communicate, freedom to share. Those are also valuable based on our values of what really defines who we are as human beings and that's the way that we can go forward. So thank you very much for sharing and describing especially as we're entering this season that many faiths celebrate and we can see a way forward and hopefully we'll have a conclusion at COP already building on the agreement of the loss and damage and the first start of the contributions even though we know it isn't as strong as it must be, but we're looking at how all of this human rights based approach can impact climate change and create justice for all. Mahalo Ben. Thank you very much, Josh. Great to be with you.