 Hey there and welcome. We are so glad you're here spending some time with us at the nonprofit show. We're also thrilled Julie and I to have with us today. Gashana Palmer. She joins us as CEO of Management Inc. And this is a conversation that I cannot wait to sink our teeth into. What? You can do this. I'm doing the most. Thrive doing the least. So Gashana is going to drop some info bombs on us here and I can't wait. I can't wait to hear it. Before we pass the microphone to her, we want to remind all of you, our viewers and listeners across the globe, who we are if we have had the esteem pleasure to meet you yet. Julia Patrick is here. Of course, she is the CEO of the American nonprofit Academy. So grateful for this platform she created. And I get to serve as co-host. I'm Jarrett Ransom, nonprofit nerd and CEO of the Raven Group. I'm thrilled to have the ongoing support of these amazing partners. So shout out of gratitude, round of applause to Julie Morang, American nonprofit Academy, nonprofit thought leader, fundraising academy at National University, 180 management group, your part-time controller, staffing boutique, JMT Consulting, nonprofit nerd and nonprofit tech talk. These are the companies collectively have helped us to produce. Are you ready for this? Nearly 1,000 episodes. So every single weekday, we're here Monday through Friday. And you can still find any of those previous episodes if you haven't been with us every day on these platforms. So go ahead and scan that QR code if you have your phone next to you. And I think we all do. Scan that QR code. You can also find us on streaming broadcast and podcast platform. So wherever you binge watch, binge listen, you can find us. We're there. All right, Kishana thrilled to have you here. You know, I had the great pleasure of meeting you in person. I want to say, was that New Orleans? It was icon? Yes, 2019. Yes. So thrilled for that. Bloomerang had a dinner. I want to say we might have actually sat next to one another or sat next to someone from your team. But Kishana Palmer, CEO, Management Inc. thrilled to have you here. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here. Yeah. Kishana, I love your website. I love the things that you're going with and how you're leading these interesting conversations that have really changed quite dramatically since the onset of the pandemics. And I always say pandemics plural because we had a global health crisis with civil unrest. We had economic shifts, demographic shifts, a lot of things going on. And so I'm really interested to kind of learn if, and this is like maybe this is like the question that we all want to ask, you know, ask away. Is it possible to lead well and live well? Age old question. It's the age old question and I'm going to have to give a resounding yes. From my belly you see. Okay. And the reason I'm giving this resounding yes is because I deeply believe that when you take care of yourself and your home, that that energy goes with you when you are in the workplace. So if you've ever like, some of us are like the folks who like we love to de-clean that's the way we decompress. My mom's like that. Others of us like to call the person to come in to do that. Thank you. Bless you for your company. But when your house is clean, you'll ever have that feeling? Top or bottom or when you go get a nice facial or you do something for yourself, you have some time in the sense that you're flushed and you're feeling good with that outside air. That feeling is possible every day with your routines and your rituals. And I believe in everyday luxury and I think that if you treat yourself well and you put yourself first, big yes selfish, big yes and selfish, then I think that it is actually possible to lead well. I love that answer. I love you're like absolutely from the bottom of my belly. Yes. Julia, you've said something before and it's always resonated with me and it's that being busy is not productive, right? Like that doesn't equal productivity. So Keshana, talk to us about how like, how do we get away from our long list of to-dos? How do we get away from the slack? How do we get away from these deadlines to say, you know what? I need to go for a walk. I need to like break these chains from my desk, whatever they are, technology, cell phone, right? Like it's with us all the time. How do you do that? So one of the most profound things that I saw, I was preparing for a keynote last year and it's in every keynote I do now that busyness is a trauma response. And often is the thing that you focus on because if you slow down, you'd have to focus on yourself. You have to face that thing, right? You gotta face that thing. And so think about it. Like if I'm saying, if I posit that in order to lead well from your seat, whether you're leading positionally or you're leading by influence that you have got to live well, right? Then to me, if you're not able to slow down enough to take care of yourself, then everything, your team, your stakeholders, your partner is getting is short circuited. So one of the things that I did, tangible thing, I took email off of my phone for almost a year. Stop. Made it to just about a year and I forgot why I ended up having to put it back on, but it, it the first month y'all listen, my heart was happy. I woke up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat and I'm Perry men Apostle just for tell everybody in the land it's okay to say these things out loud but I wasn't there and I was just sweating. It was terrible. She soaked. But nothing happened every day when I woke up. Oh my gosh, actually no one was looking for me. And what I realized is that I put myself on this sort of like self importance. Oh, you know, I got to stay connected because I have to respond and things are going to be an emergency. I am not an emergency room doctor or a firefighter. Ain't nothing that I can really respond to that's going to change some stuff up, not really. So for folks who are looking to throttle down. I would say you got to throttle down in areas that don't have to do with that first, for example, a decision diet. So right now in the spring season, everything I wear is going to look something like this. So I have like a casual tunic, and I have on some light pants like you got to be cute even if you were from home. Yeah, like there are no other decisions I'm making. Why because if I have a lot of tabs open in my mind. I need to close the tabs that can just be routine so that I have the capacity to focus on other things and I think we don't think about that we go right to how do we close the slack how do we give the to do list know how do you put yourself first. Yeah. So how do you get your team on the same train right like how do you get your team, you know, in a place where it's like, okay, they are also in this space, you know, they're they're thriving as well and they're they're not the ones driving you down to say, Well, because Sean I sent you an email or however that might go down right. Yeah, your team members actually say things like, well I know you're busy but well I know you probably have a lot of your plate but my team doesn't to me all the time. And so one of the things that is important to do to get your team to thrive is you have to model behavior. So one of the things that is a core value of my company is fun. I don't know how challenging the project is the client is the assignment is if we are not laughing tickled. At some point during this work, we don't want it. Life's too short. Right. And so the flip side of that is anyone who interviews to work alongside us has to have an outside pursuit. Hyac, hike, knit, ballroom dance pole dance, whatever it is you want to do the throw pottery, right. You have to have a pursuit because I have learned the hard way that work is a comfort space and anyone who's who's watching or listening, who school was a comfort place when you were growing up. That's that's your, that's your gateway drug to be in a workaholic. And so in order to be able to help counter that. I put in place you can't work here. If you don't do nothing else outside of work. Because we need to be able to insert that balance and that to me in modeling that and then putting in place practices that's a practice not a policy that allow folks to be able to live fully outside of work that means they're going to bring their best to work because all folks want to see y'all is I see you. And I hear you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, this strikes me in my core kashana and I know you're past the season in life but I'm in the season of raising a teenager, and I would much rather be working than dealing with some teenage issues right now right and so I find myself going to my computer, going into a meeting closing my door to jump on zoom because that is so much easier for me right now. Oh, I understand I'm not that far out of it the queen is just went to college. Okay, so and I'm still dealing with foolishness over this over the winter break we had to have the conversation about being a team player, because she is on the mommy presidential scholarship. And so, if you know the presidential scholarship is room board tuition and hello. Yeah, and it comes with some things you've got to do to keep that money. So we had to have a conversation, my former straight A student about what it means to play on the team, and what it actually means to honor the investment that people have made in you and so when she was in high school. There I promise you I was locked in my office all the time. So much so that when she came home from break this is now college. I made a meal now I can cook my face off but I can't tell you the last time I actually put something on the stove. Because my mom cooks, since I started running my practice right. She, she was on the face of her friends y'all and she, she goes yo, my mother's cooking. These are her friends from high school and out in college who lived at my house right and they go, Miss kitchens cooking. And you would have thought the thunder was going to come down and things were going to roll. And so one of the things I realized was that she has seen me model. She has seen me like to be focused and to be all in and to tip right so when I had my first back episode this is the kid that had to call my dad to come get me. So she's seen all of it. So when she was a teenager there, I just tried to focus on the joy of actually do I actually like this human because a lot of people don't like their children. True. They get ugly for a little bit same with your teams. So let's talk about that because how can you model that behavior and have fun and still be high performance because I think there's an American. It's not strictly American. You see it a lot in Asia but you know if you go into a work environment is supposed to be quiet people are heads down and we we've said that for your keep your heads, keep your head down and, and like that's going to be the most productive. What do you say about that. I mean for me, you got to infuse your environment with the vibrancy you want to bring to your work. Yeah, even if you work in a place where everybody has on their headphones right. I'm the kind of manager that if I realize everybody has airpods or they have the max is on. I might as an incentive when we hit go for that quarter get everybody like custom, you know, covers for it or something like that. I need to reward their team members for bringing pieces of their personality and what gives them joy to work so I'm you're in my home office right now. And so you can tell if I step aside what brings me joy flowers books. Give me a good cup pictures of my kid I have children's books because again back to that fun and that joy. And so I think it's possible to be a high performer. If you have the things that allow you to have talents in your system. And what are we designed to do when we're in our work. It's, we're in a business of relationships. Yes, how to get creative. And you got to have a good time and I think you lose that because we're like goal in the quarter KPI. All those things will come if you understand that you're focusing on bringing people into the story of your organization, bringing people into the activity and the action. They want to be part of the Voltron right they want to vote Ron up with you. And if you're able to bring that kind of energy enjoy everybody's not like me everybody's not like having three cups of coffee I only drink one day I'll just you know, but can you bring that aliveness into your environment and model that the answer is no, if you don't live well. Here we go. Not possible to me. If you don't take care yourself if you're not eating the way you're supposed to eat. If your belly's hurting all the time because your gastro if your face breaking out hormones that you stress eating or whatever binge watching because you don't want to deal with life. Yeah. Well, it makes me think you know I feel like the tech world was really the the pilots on this like they added ping pong tables foos tables, you know foosball tables. Now so much kashana we're in this remote environment. How do you infuse creativity fun and play. When we might not even see each other. I RL Julia, in real life, we're we're always in this little Brady bunch. It's a great question Jared. It's a great question. I knew that I just did two days ago with a client. So it was a women's group of an organization I'm brought on together, minus the standard leadership to be able to have a conversation on connection. They didn't even really know each other because they all work out in their individual sites right. So there's two hours with me that's that's short amount of time to get folks to start to gel. I'm big on activities I'm an activities person and as the manager I've always had my team be remote so we just love activities. One of the favorites and they ended up picking this I didn't pick it. They decided to listen to a true crime podcast. And they're going to do two episodes a week, they have a prompt and a check in already and by the time I do their next session with them in a month. They would have gone through watching that and talking about it together and they decided to get on their slack their teams to be able to have a group to discuss it to start to build that personal connection and muscle around. Gosh, we do some things that are fun. We tried that didn't like it. The next thing they're going to do is a book club they already decided five activities then the next thing they're doing after that is a virtual lunch and learn. They're going to do a think pair share like I helped them to kind of figure that out so for managers who spend a lot of time in the box with their team members. So corny sells and marketing doesn't know. And so, doing things that you're like, oh my God, so corny, people love it. Right, right. What about, I think the three of us are probably extroverts, but not everyone is right and we all have a little bit of blend. And since the pandemic, I've become more and more introverted, I will 100% admit to that. And I really like spending time alone. So how does this fit into that extrovert introvert world to really create a cohesive experience and a level of comfort for everyone. Yeah, I want to add, I want to add, I want to add gender, because I think of the same thing. I was thinking the same thing, Jared, but I went to gender. The difference between females and males in that work in sharing like the book club and the so sorry to stop but I, I like, I like really where Jared's going with this. So I think a lot about gender and how people identify because 70% of my audience, my clients, whether they're organizational or company leaders, etc, are women, and folks who identify as women, women and queer folks. So my brain is like, hardwired to be there I have to actually switch gears and throttle differently to think about folks who identify as men right. So one of the things that I think for me in that is really understanding what people actually want now out of work, or want out of life, and what all of the blogging and the thought leadership that's coming out across sectors, two things. People want comfort, and people want escape. And so how do you, oh, and I don't know what I did, but so how do you bring that into how you design your team activities, how you talk to folks about their goals, how you get folks motivated, right, comfort and escape. Business owners who are soaking consultants who are serving organizations, if you understand that 80% of CEOs right now only are like their primary good keeps you up at night is keeping their job. So to your point about balancing that introvert extrovert I actually mean introvert I just love people and I'm nosy. And so, I'm always gonna be like, tell me more, you know, so maybe great as a fundraiser I just love people and I'm nosy. So today I'll be at the house. My house is nice. I just want y'all to know if y'all came here a little tour y'all be like oh girl, you want to design my house. So what I think people have to kind of get back to the basics on around introversion extroversion and being an ambivert is it's about how you get your energy. And I realized last week I went to go meet with the local commissioner here where I live because I told y'all I'm trying to build my business locally. It's a whole different ballgame when you got to go talk to the local folks right. And I realized in seeing her and I met the executive director for an organization that was at the community center. I got to get outside. Right. I've been admitting to myself that I'm going to do an activity that gets me out the house for me that's making sure I go to stretch lab and so as far as far from my house. I found a co-working space right down the street from it. So I know at least one day a week. I'm going to do something for myself hello live well. Right. And then I'm going to go leave well so I'm going to connect with folks I'm going to be in commune so I'm not going to write a paper. Just check emails all day and do you know what I mean do the busy work that you kind of need to do when there's a lot of stuff going around point being you have to decide to shift in the routines that you have just a little bit. Right. So that gives you back that little nitro that you need to kind of get back into yourself. Yeah. And I think that's important especially as we work remotely I'm finding myself more and more scheduling a coffee date it's not always easy but I feel like it's necessary right like dip my toe back in there. So Krishna, we don't have tons of time but I know we still have a few key talking points. Talk to us about what it means to actually not do all the things all the time, because again, like I'm staring at a desk full of to do lists. Right. And I think there's no way I can get out for a bike ride there's no way I can get to the gym. Like, yeah. Exactly right I think the thing for me is that I have to work from the perspective of I am my first or my last appointment. Period. Interesting. So a bike ride is not a to do a bike ride is an appointment. It's actually something that earns me money. Let me tell you why. Because if I get on my bike and move my body and sweat, and then I come home and take a hot shower. That means I'm going to have a good night sleep. I have a good night sleep I get up the next day with more energy. I have more energy. I'm going to do the business development I need to do because I got a good night sleep I see where I'm going with that. I might get I might even eat breakfast and have protein in it y'all. So when you decide not to do all the things which you decide is like what is actually urgent and important. Yeah. I think a lot of times we put everything in the urgent and important box and the reality is is not. So when I start to see my to do list build up, I do my quadrant. Important urgent not important important not urgent right like and I put my sticky notes with y'all. I put my sticky notes in those in those boxes so that I can flock in but what never comes out the box is the appointment that I have with myself. Because that's what makes me money. I love that's the first one I move because I think. Yeah, I'll do this later. Me too. Yeah, me too. Yeah. No, and I love that you frame that up and I think it's just super cool to be thinking in this way but we can't all organically think this way. So we need to find coaching or an advisor or somebody like you to come into our lives come into our organization. Maybe it says a group or maybe it's just for us. What does that look like in terms of investing in that and I'm not just talking about money but you know time like because we don't just change our behavior overnight. What does that journey look like. So for me, I think the hardest thing and the most important thing that you have to do if you want to work with a coach or an advisor or a consultant because they all do different functions friends is decide. Oh, it could be a good idea. Oh, I think that's not a decision. You got to decide right and that's actually a hard thing to do. So you decide to invest in yourself. And one of the things that I tell my clients all the time, particularly my folks who raise money or who raise capital, you've got to steward your career, the way you steward donors. You've got to put time and attention and specificity, and it has to be replicable. Right. And so, once you decide, and you decide you're going to bet on yourself. Then what would need to be true to live the life you want to have the career you want and to be healthy while you're doing it. And we don't answer those questions before we jump in we just see the big blinking lights of getting a coach etc. And we do this what we need. You're a much better advisor than a coach. People tend to come to me in crisis in crisis you don't want me doing that say to you. So what do you think about that. What does that make you feel pick up your shoe and throw it right at me. Okay. But I have team members who are phenomenal coaches and control that exact same thing out of you by asking the questions I'm not as good at it. So I advise typically and do group coaching yes absolutely transformative changing absolutely because if organizations can commit to the idea that you don't have to burn the people to get to the outcome. Then actually investing in coaching for your team members as a way to retain your talent and build your internal pipeline is actually a cost savings over time and not an expense. And so, in addition to deciding we got to get away from this is an expense I might waste my money. So this is an investment that is saving me money over time. That's what I got. So the math is the man. Yeah, you mentioned you know fundraising and that clearly is a huge audience of ours, the nonprofit community at large. But when we look at the turnover rate for the director of development or whatever that title is in development. What is the current Julia is it like 18 months 18 months. AFP. So I mean, yeah from from the Association of Fundrails and Professionals. What is that one thing right now for our viewers and listeners that say, Okay, we need to, we need to make a change like, where do we start. What I did as chief development officer was instead of fighting the tide, I went with the tide. So I designed every role to last for 18 months, which means you're ramp up onboarding project and settling stretch project and growth or grow out should have the arc of 18 months. Because the reality is, if that's true, then what my job really is, is to ensure that they move up in their careers, which looks very different so the organization gets the advantage of innovation, because I'm designing for folks to go. My mind is blown. I'm totally yeah I am like, I am. Yeah, Jerry, no one has ever and you know we've done almost 1000 shows no one has ever even approached a product that way, right. A problem. This is fascinating. Yeah, it's planned obsolescence. Yep. So some succession planning that actually allows you to be able to be that place that people want to work. Because when you come on my team, if I say my job is to make sure that you are kickass at what you do and that you get clear on your life path are you a generalist or are you a specialist, and to make sure that you have the resources and the runway to be able to get that done and to answer that question for yourself, because when you move on to the next place, my ego can't stand it if somebody don't do a good job somewhere else y'all y'all embarrassing me and what you're not going to do is embarrassed me as a leader. And so selfishly, I'm going to make sure that when folks know they used to work for me. They go, Oh, they're well, well, they know what they're doing. Oh, they, what they operate integrity like you, it comes with the social capital that I built. So I'm invested in doing that in the seat when they're there. Yeah. This has been just fantastic. I really, of course, love your energy, but I love your mindset on this and I really think as we look at our nonprofit community and really all sectors. We are struggling with so much, you know, our to do list or deadlines, the workload, our own mental health, right, like just everything and so really looking at how do we focus on leading well by living well and that to me is the medicine that we need to focus on. That's right. It's been a great, it's been fabulous, fabulous. Kishana Palmer, CEO of management, Inc. Check out manage meant MIT.co. And their websites fabulous when you when you go to the very first landing page. There's like this fabulous video that just pulls you in and gets it sets the, the, the tone for the experience on your site. So I just love it and it's been such a pleasure to have you here and, and you know, Jared and I get to meet a lot of different people, not only in the nonprofit show, but all over. And it's not often that the two of us both at the same time go. I think we're going to remember this day. I really, really do. Again, I'm Julia Patrick's CEO of the American nonprofit Academy been joined today by Jared Ransom, the nonprofit nerd herself CEO of the Raven group. Again, we have amazing partners and they include Blumerang, American nonprofit Academy, nonprofit thought leaders, staffing boutique, your part time controller, 180 management group, fund raising academy at National University, JMT consulting nonprofit nerd and nonprofit tech talk. These are the folks that join us day in and day out so that we can have these riveting conversations like we've had today with Kishana Palmer. Really, really cool. Hey, you know, every day we end with this and I always say it means different things. And today yet again, Jared, it means something different. And in our closing line today as it is every day is to stay well so you can do well. Ladies, thank you so much.