 What's happening with human rights around the world? And we're reporting live today from the Oslo Freedom Forum in Oslo, Norway. And we're so very fortunate to have Eric Kohn with us, who made an amazing film, looking at the life of Jimmy Lau, but more importantly, showing how all of us are really interconnected in this quest for freedom of the press and freedom of expression, and really pointing out how we all live together. Eric, thank you so much for joining us. And can you share with us a bit about your film as we're here on the... It was one of the best events I attended at the opening night of the Oslo Freedom Forum. Well, thank you so much and thanks for having me. We started making this film in January of 2021. So the reason we wanted to make this is Jimmy Lai is a longtime friend of the Acton Institute's co-founders. I'm the Director of Marketing Communications at the Acton Institute for the Study of Religion and Liberty. Our co-founders, Reverend Robert Cerrico and Chris Maurin, have known Jimmy for a long time. And Jimmy's story is really a remarkable one. He left China when he was 12 years old in the bottom of a fishing boat. He touched down in Hong Kong and when you touch down in Hong Kong, you're naturalized, you become a citizen. And as he details it in our film, it was the first time that he knew he had a future. So he goes to work in a factory. It's the first time that he experiences that kind of work and the dignity that comes from that kind of work, becomes an entrepreneur. He starts a textile factory. He starts a clothing brand and eventually finds his way into the media business with Next Digital, Next Magazine and the newspaper Apple Daily, which was the foremost pro-democracy newspaper in Hong Kong. The reason that we felt the story was incredibly important to tell is that Jimmy, we think, represents the story of Hong Kongers in a very important way. And especially with what has transpired in Hong Kong and to Hong Kongers over the last couple of years as the Chinese Communist Party has cracked down on the city, has started to roll back a lot of freedoms that they have enjoyed for decades and has resulted in Jimmy Lai's newspaper, Apple Daily being shut down, with Jimmy being imprisoned, with numerous other people who are freedom fighters in Hong Kong, being arrested most recently, Cardinal Joseph Zen, the Roman Catholic Cardinal, who was a longtime friend of Jimmy's as well. And we think that they truly represent the spirit of the Hong Kong people who are, as I have found them through making this film, irrepressible, even though the Chinese government is doing their best to repress them, the spirit that they have is truly inspiring and is, I think, well exemplified by Jimmy's story of his mansabillionaire. He could have left at any point in time. He could have gone to the UK, could have come to the United States and he chose to stay because he truly believes in what he stands for and wanted to stay and fight for those values and the freedom of Hong Kongers. No, I have to admit, it was one of the best opening evenings of the Oslo Freedom Ever, Oslo Freedom Forum's 14th anniversary. And I so enjoyed being there that evening. It brought back the experience I had of being in Hong Kong on June 4th. It brought back also that, what you're describing that, that sense of purpose, that sense of meaning. And he had already survived. I love the story, the way you shared it, where he turned around and he had a bite of chocolate and he said, oh my gosh, where are you from? I'll never forget that moment in the film. And he said, because where you're from, he said, Hong Kong, it must be heaven because I'm tasting chocolate for the first time. And really the amazing part is Jimmy coming there but then also appreciating the power of human rights, the power of freedom of the press, the power of people standing up in solidarity for each other for these civil and political rights that define the meaning of what matters most in life. And it really comes through in your film where here's this individual, exactly as you said, could have left at any time, but stays there. And when I think also of COVID, most people talk about the COVID fog, but he could have left, but he stayed there. He went there on June 4th. He made sure that the world never forgot Tiananmen Square and for that he was punished for it using that new security law, but he stood for what he always believed it. And that was the beauty of, I'll never forget as well being in Hawaii and seeing him being arrested that day and seeing the hundreds of police going forward to try to intimidate him, but he stood for one thing, those four freedoms of Roosevelt, freedom of speech, freedom of press, freedom of movement, freedom of what matters most. And he understood it more than anyone else from someone who came as you shared from rags to riches, but understood that human rights was at the core of our being of who we all are. He really is a remarkable story of self-determination as well. I mean, as from Hawaii, I'm from the Midwest, this American understanding of the pursuit of happiness, that it is not something that is predestined is part of our right to determine our own future. And I think Jimmy certainly embodies that in that way, the way that the American founders talked about these rights being endowed by God, they're not Americans' rights because they're Americans. They are universal human rights and deserve to be recognized as universal human rights. And Jimmy clearly exemplifies that. You mentioned Tiananmen Square and it is an incredibly important moment in the story. It is really a transitional moment in Jimmy's life. And for the people's understanding of Tiananmen Square, and we really tried to reveal this in the film that when we think of Tiananmen, what do we all think of, right? We think of the tank man. We think of the man standing in front of the column of tanks. And that is a very important part of the story, but we should also know it was not just something that was happening in Beijing, it was happening all over China. And it really was a mass movement. And it really caught the Chinese Communist Party off guard and it was a breaking point. And it is really truly in that sense, one of the unfortunate moments of the 20th century. It could have been the moment that China tipped in the other direction, that we're talking about a more politically free China, not just an economically free China, like we have been experiencing over the last several decades. And for Jimmy, this really was an important moment in his life where he understood that he is Chinese and that people need to stand up and people need to make a stand if China is ever going to end up that way. And I think about this when we think about China, the state of China today, the state of as we've discussed here at the Oslo Freedom Forum, many authoritarian governments. We think that we always have this, I think belief that they're just never going to end that it's gonna continue in perpetuity. And I always think of the line from Hemingway's, the sun also rises where a man's asked how he went bankrupt. And his answer is very slowly and then all of a sudden, we don't often see these things coming. And there is, for me, no reason to believe that just because the trajectory of China has been what it has been for, particularly since Xi Jinping took over, that it is going to continue in a straight line. One of the greatest sins of political and world prognostication is straight line projections. And we think things will just continue the same way that they are forever. And we should, I think, think a little bit more creatively, have a little bit more of a moral imagination about what the world could possibly be. And again, I think Jimmy Story exemplifies that the spirit, and the same way that the city of Hong Kong exemplifies exactly what the Chinese spirit the most, right? It is a representation of Western values, these ideas that we've been talking about, these human freedoms and human rights that we've been talking about in Chinese form. It can exist that way. And there's nothing written in the stars that says China has to be this kind of state forever. I agree. And when I watched the film on the opening night, so the Also Freedom or Forum is amazing, it's the 14th annual year, but I thought your film really embodied the spirit because it said, Also Freedom Forum, we are all Hong Kongers. And it was really this annual global gathering for liberty. And when you look at Jimmy Lau's life, there's really no one that exemplifies it even more no matter where you look around the world. With COVID happening, people really didn't focus enough on the global, but you really saw how China used it to its advantage. But then as Jimmy went out, just to do the usual June 4th event, wearing the mask, doing everything to make sure that he didn't perpetuate any health challenges, use that as a tool then to limit his ability for freedom of speech. And I'll never forget the videos because I remember it's watching him in Hawaii. And I thought to myself, wow, really the greatest casualty of the COVID crisis is Apple daily closing and people not organizing due to COVID to be able to stand up for really this symbol of freedom of press. And I thought you did an amazing job in the film to show, you know, they took him away in handcuffs, closed down his business, but everyone at the Apple daily still remembered freedom of the press is so important. It's a fourth branch of government. And I thought your film was beyond powerful in exemplifying one individual's quest to make sure that these freedoms are actually never forgotten. And more importantly, that we stand up together to make sure that they exist for all people. Joshua, I don't know if you've ever seen the film, The Untouchables, the story of how Elliot Ness and his gang of Untouchables brought down Al Capone's crime syndicate in Chicago. And there's a line in there, Kevin Costner, Sean Connery, and there's a great line in there from Sean Connery who's been gunned down and as he's dying, he asks, you know, he knows now that Kevin Costner understands what it is going to take to stop Al Capone. And he asks him, what are you prepared to do? And that to me is really the question that was in, that is raised by this film that I want other people to think about from this film. There's a line in the trailer for the film too that always affected me, which is a news presenter talking about the protests that took place in Hong Kong as the Chinese Communist Party is working to strip away these freedoms you mentioned, the limitations, the revocation of permits and the not giving out of permits that they did for the Tiananmen Memorial that would take place in Victoria Park. As I see these things being stripped away, these protests that have been going on over different legislative or different legal attempts to restrict the freedom of Hong Kongers. There's a line in the trailer that Mr. Lai insisted on marching in front so the authorities could see him. What are we prepared to do? What are you prepared to do in defense of these freedoms? And it's something to think about for me, particularly as an American, where the cost for exercising my freedoms is not incredibly high. Did Jimmy Lai, it was? There's another line in the film from, I believe it is from Lord Patton, who was a former governor, the last colonial governor of Hong Kong, who says that Jimmy was incredibly brave and he hopes that he would have been as brave. And that's just to me such an incredible, touching and vulnerable moment from somebody of such honor. A British Lord who was the last colonial governor of the city who wonders to himself if he would have been that brave and the bravery of millions of Hong Kongers who marched to protests of people like Jimmy Lai, of Martin Lee, of Cardinal Zen, who stood up in the face of this kind of a totalitarian power and said, you're not going to do this. And it would be easy to look at the situation right now and to just think, but they lost. Jimmy is in prison, Cardinal Zen was just arrested, other people have fled. But as I said before, these things aren't predetermined. How many people would have predicted the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War and the fall of the Berlin Wall up until right when it happened? We need that kind of moral imagination. And one of the things I think we can do as people around the world, people here at the Oslo Freedom Forum, people in different countries around the world is to have that sense of solidarity with Hong Kongers who are fighting for freedoms that many of us enjoy. And I think too often take for granted. I think that's the message of your film and it's so powerful. I remember being at the Oslo Freedom Forum in 2019 and meeting Denise Ho, who was a musician but also very much an activist. And the point that you bring up that's so strong is he could have left at any time. He had every aspect of privilege from decades of dedication to the cause of human rights, to the cause of freedom of press. But he didn't, it's a type of leadership we don't appreciate enough. He led from the front. He put his body on the line and he said, I think the quote of your film that I love the most was he said, I made the trouble, I'm not gonna leave. And he said- Yeah, he's happy to have it. Yeah. And so- It is a remarkable spirit. Really, it's why that line from Lord Patton in the film, just every time I've heard, when you're on a circuit where you're screening the film, I mean, I've seen it so many times now. And to me, it's one of those things that I know how it, when it's touching me and it always continues to affect me each time I see it. To me, that tells me, I hope other people feel the same way, that it's a very powerful moment in the film that should make us ask that question, what would be, what are we prepared to do? Would we be prepared to do the same kind of thing that Jimmy has done? And that the answer for a lot of us very well may be no. I, you know, I've racked my own brain thinking about that. You know, what would I have done if I were in Jimmy's position? You know, this is why I appreciate the humility in that line from Lord Patton, because he, it's very easy to give the answer of, you know, of course. The professor at Princeton, Robbie George, does him tell his story, how when he teaches history and when he would teach about the Jim Crow South and he would ask his students to raise their hands and say, how many of you, if you were living in the South, you know, in the early 1900s into the mid 1900s, would have opposed the Jim Crow system? And he says, it's always the same story. All the hands in the room go up and it's so easy to do that in retrospect, but the reality would have been a lot of people would have gone on to get along. I think for that reason, there's a reason that we venerate people like Nelson Mandela. There's a reason we venerate people like Alexander Soltzenitz and then there's a reason I think we should venerate people like Jimmy Lai for having the courage to stand up for not just his own freedom and his own interests, but the interests of all the people of Hong Kong and truly all the people of China. I mean, his point always was Tiananmen really brought around and Jimmy was an understanding of he as a Hong Konger, these Chinese as well. And it is and should be true that the Chinese people are as free as the Hong Kongers used to be and that the Hong Kongers should continue to enjoy the freedom, the human rights that they did for so many decades. It's so true. I mean, that's why also freedom form is so powerful because it says we are all Hong Kongers. It really does unite people from the movements in China, in Russia, in dictatorial authoritarian regimes around the world to say we are all one. And that's the exciting part. The Oslo Freedom Forum features coming together of campaigns in countries for common universal values of peace, justice, human rights, rule of law, equality for all. And what your film shows though is it's about what will you do when the time comes for you to put your life not only really above all else, above meaning and purpose. And that's the part where I agree with you. Like Patton said, in my good day, I would hope I would. Yeah. But he also openly admits, I don't know if I would because Jimmy has homes in other places. He's done media work. He's done a whole lifetime of service in the name of freedom of press. But that quote where he said, I made the mess, I'll stay here. Really talks about, well, what will we all do as we decide what steps we'll take as we go forward? And that's what the Oslo Freedom Forum's all about. It's really saying, what do you believe in? What do you stand for? And what will you do for your beliefs? And Joshua, your point there about, we are all Hong Kongers. We're seeing this as well with what is happening in Ukraine. This point of solidarity, right? So as the saying goes, the opposite of love isn't hate. It's apathy. And the worst thing in the world would be for people to have an indifference to what is going on in other places where the Ukrainians are under siege from the Russians, where Hong Kongers are under the boot of the Chinese Communist Party. This sense of solidarity is incredibly important. It is, and I said this in the question and answer after the film, where again, from the perspective of an American, I continue to think that if, not for the fact that we have spent a good amount of the last, oh, I don't know, five or six years as Americans, very inward looking, very focused on what is going on in our own country, very focused on ourselves, that we would be paying attention to what is going on in Hong Kong, what has been going on in Hong Kong now for several years, and the way that we were attuned to what was happening in Eastern Europe in the 1980s. I think we were really at a breaking point for all of that. I think COVID certainly changed a lot of things. I think the, you know, whether we wanna consider the invasion of Ukraine by Russia at the end of that post, fall of the Berlin Wall, end of the Cold War, global liberal order, or at least the greatest threat to it that we have seen since the time that the Soviet Union was still together and still a superpower of sorts. I think we are at a real tipping point and a real moment where we need people who are in countries where you do not have to put yourself physically, your own freedom, your own safety, your own life on the line for these freedoms that we believe in. I think we're at a tipping point where people are going to pay more attention to what is going on in places like Ukraine, like Hong Kong, as well as Venezuela, as well as Saudi Arabia, Iran, numerous countries that we can all name where people who because of their inherent humanity should be free to determine their own paths in this life are not. I am very hopeful. Father Seriko kindly disabused me of using the term optimistic because optimistic obviates a sense of agency in all of this. I am hopeful that we are on the precipice of kind of reestablishing the sense that I think we had during the Cold War, which admittedly was not a fun time, but it was an understanding of the world, I think as it was, and an understanding of there are forces of good and there are forces of evil in this world. And again, what are you prepared to do? What are you going to stand up for? Yeah, and I think Gary Kasparov, who's with the Human Rights Foundation said it as well. He said, the Ukrainians are giving the ultimate sacrifice, but what are we all ready to do? And maybe you could give a little bit because I think during COVID, many people had the COVID brain fog. They didn't see the laws that were passed in Hong Kong. They didn't see it happening and then taking action because you didn't know what you could do under COVID, but there were a couple laws that were being passed that Jimmy knew there was a price to pay, but he still stood up for those fundamental universal values of freedom of the press. Could you share with us a bit of what laws were passed regarding national security and other aspects and then how he definitely chose the past that probably most of us wish, as you said, would have chosen, but might have gone another route to fight another debt. Yeah, the Chinese, really as soon as the handover took place, started to roll back the freedoms of Hong Kongers. I wanna focus very briefly on two of those laws, one of them which did not become law and really set the stage for the one that did. There was an extradition law that would have been able to send people who were Hong Kong citizens and even people, theoretically, who were not, who were just in Hong Kong, into mainland China, if there were any kind of legal disputes. Mark Simon, who is an executive at Next Digital, said that the people at a cigar club, these pro-Beijing businessmen, were just deeply opposed to this law because they don't wanna get in a business dispute and they get hauled up to Beijing over that. That never did become law. It set the stage, however, for this national security law, which, again, for people who live in systems that have a functioning sense of the rule of law, it really is mind-blowing what this law does, which, essentially, I am guilty of violating the national security law here right now in talking to you and being critical of what has transpired in Hong Kong. Benedict Rogers, who's in the United Kingdom, runs Hong Kong Watch, says in the film that he's violating it right now. Mark Cunningham, the former ambassador to Hong Kong from the United States, is guilty of violating it. If any of us steps foot in Hong Kong, we could be arrested for the violations of this law. It also applies retroactively. So anything that you may have done before the law was put into place, you could also be punished for all of that. It is so broadly written that there's almost nothing that couldn't fall under it if the Chinese Communist Party didn't want to make it fall under it. These really were, that really was the tipping point in all of this, and it really is what set the stage for what we have seen over the last couple of years and the real rollback of the freedom of Hong Kongers. No, it's so true. And that's the point, right? When you look at, it was that initial law that created the umbrella revolution where everyday people who really weren't radical but were just saying, this is who we are as a people. This is what we've evolved. Two million people, two million people in the streets of a city of 7.5 million, two million people in the streets. Right, so they showed up during this timeframe and said, this law is morally wrong. It is something we must stand up against. And then during COVID, the new law focusing on looking at the issue that they then made everything like you just shared before, after and post illegal, it is something that anyone who just looked out for themself would have moved on. But Jimmy Lai said, no, no, this is my struggle. And the best part about your film is it shows his whole life story. It shows us someone who, if he only cared for himself would have left early, would have been weighing geodono clothes in New York and still fighting the fight from a distance. But I think that's what really comes out in your film is he put his life on the line and didn't leave. And that's a new kind of leadership we all need to respect when we look at global leadership and how people are taking actions today. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I know we're short on time here, so I wanna share two really important things. One, I want people to go to the Hong Konger movie.com. That's where you can see the trailer for the film. You can find out where the film is having screenings. You could also, there's a form there if you would like to host a screening of the film, please submit that form will be in touch with you about how you can screen the film, even if it's just in your house, even if it's just with friends. We want people to see this story. And the other thing that I want to really drive home to people is there are things that you can do. We can feel so helpless that you think it's far away. There's nothing we can do to affect it. We know that there's nothing more the Chinese government would like than for people like Jimmy, Simon Lee, Cardinal Zen to be forgotten. Speak his name, talk about it on social media with your friends everywhere. It does help, it does make a difference. No, and if you look at the also freedom form, it's such a broad agenda. And today they just commemorated the three months of the Ukrainian invasion, but more important the resistance of the people. But I really feel your film on opening evening captured what matters most. It really did tell the story of liberty through the eyes of one person and why it's so crucial as a call of conscience for the immediate release of Jimmy Lai and the return of rule of law. And that's I think something that we need to remember is that there's an individual who's sitting in prison because he stood up for what we all believe in. And the way everybody spoke about Ukraine where everybody thought the West was ready to give up but the Ukrainians said no, not today. This is our homeland. I appreciate so much you giving the attention to this film on your program. And I encourage people to visit the Hong KongerMovie.com find out more there, watch the trailer, get in touch with us. We really appreciate the exposure you're giving to this. No, and to me, that's the thing about also freedom form. Is it allows you to look at North Korea? It allows you to look at Venezuela? It allows you to look, but really the case of Hong Kong through COVID, too many people forgot. And maybe you could share with us briefly because we have a little bit of time. What was that national security law? And then how did they go after attacking him? I think it was around Tiananmen Square in June 4th. But the good point is he never forgot and he remembered Tankman in the streets. And he said, we really have to not forget everyday Chinese people. So he's Chinese, he loves China. He's not anti in any way. He's not some person who cares only about some other vision of the world. He's like, I'm China, but we also have universal values that must be upheld for all people. Yes, no, absolutely. And I think it's well represented by the story of using COVID to try to cancel the commemoration of the Tiananmen Square massacre, which is always an eyesore for the Chinese. And the resistance that Jimmy and a lot of those people showed by showing up in Victoria Park anyway, continuing the tradition of the candlelight vigil, keep doing what they've been doing in the same way that we should be keeping faith with those people going forward. Yeah, and I think when he joined and he showed up there, when I saw the film, he didn't say anything. He wasn't spreading COVID in any way. He just was lighting the candle and speaking truth to power to saying, we must never forget June 4th. And he made the connections between June 4th and all the dates of Hong Kong, of the umbrella revolution. I loved your footage showing him there in the umbrella revolution, wet, cold, not taking any aspect of privilege, but being there every step of the way with the people to say these are all of our rights and it's time for all of us to stand up for them and exercise them so that future generation of Hong Kongers can have them. Absolutely. Very, very powerful film. And we will do our best to make sure we show the film in Hawaii. Looking at our final moments, I think what was also important is, what can we do regarding Jimmy Lai? Where is he at today? What can we do in Congress? I think you're showing the film in Congress. How can we get in touch with our elected officials to say, none of us are forgetting and our domestic and foreign policy are all interconnected around freedom of the press? So the update on Jimmy, Jimmy is in prison, but from what we are told, he is in high spirits. He is making good use of his time. He had asked for books that he would be able to read from the people who are still able to visit with him. So yes, very good. As good as it could possibly be for somebody who is under the kind of pressure and oppression that he is under. What people can do, yes. Again, as I said, reach out to us about screening the film, talk, say Jimmy's name, tweet with the hashtags, communicate with the hashtags, free Jimmy Lai, free Hong Kong. And yes, of course, reach out to your members in Congress. At minimum, they should speak with moral clarity on this issue, these violations of basic human rights, freedom of speech, freedom of the press. It should just be, it should be a no-brainer that American representatives should be morally clear on this entire story. Yes, we're screening it at the Capitol for members of Congress on June 7th. Anyone's in DC and would like to attend. Again, please reach out to us. But yes, please get in touch with your congressman, speak Jimmy Lai's name and please visit the Hong Kong or movie.com to find out more. Well, thank you so much for making time and obviously a busy time here in Oslo. I agree the call of conscience for the immediate release of Jimmy Lai and the return of rule law at the core of the film and a new campaign resonating around the world. I think Jimmy Lai is all of us and we must work together to make sure that China doesn't think it can ignore its international human rights obligations, but more importantly, cannot really disrespect an amazing individual who was really born of Hong Kong. And I think that's the point that your film brought up is we are all Hong Kongers and we can all do more together. And thank you so much for the bravery of your movie and thank you so much. It was the best opening of an Oslo Freedom Forum I could ever imagine and still inspired going into the third and final night. Thank you so much, we appreciate it. Thank you so much and look forward to seeing it in DC and also showing it in Hawaii. And hopefully we can do more in Hawaii as we know Hong Kong is our neighbor and we can look at what's possible going forward. Thank you, God bless. All right, Aloha, thank you. I know it's the end of our show. Thank you all for tuning in. Mahalo and thank you so much for making time. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.