 Good afternoon everyone and welcome to this panel session on the future of migration. My name is Alexander Betts. I'm a professor at the University of Oxford and most of my research focuses on migration in its very diverse dimensions. We're privileged to have 45 minutes for a very exciting conversation today. We're joined by four terrific panellists, Melinda Bregu who's Secretary General of the Regional Cooperation Council and based in Sarajevo, Bettina Sharla, yw'r head of group public affairs at the ADECO group, based here in Switzerland. Nenna Stojkovic, who's Undersecretary General, focusing on global relations, diplomacy and digitisation at the International Federation of the Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies. Last but not least, Ben Wright, who's founder and CEO of Velocity Global based in Denver in the United States. I'll give a very brief introduction to the panel and then we'll launch straight into a conversation and there'll be time for all of you in the audience to contribute. So as we're discussing, think about your questions, think about your comments and we will come to you. The context for this panel is that we see growth in migration around the world and transformation in the patterns of migration. And that's the result in changes in the nature of global economic activity and of course underlying inequalities within the global economy. The numbers of migrants in the world are actually quite contested. If we go to UN figures, there are some 281 million migrants, while the World Bank suggests there are 184 million. And that difference, which is as stark as whether it's 2.3% of the world's population or 3% of the world's population, depends on whether we define and measure migrants as people who are foreign born or people living outside their country of citizenship. But what we're aware, whichever of those figures we take, is that migration is a genuinely global phenomenon. Some 40% of international migration takes place between developing countries and is to developing countries. While about 40% is to rich countries and around 20% in so-called middle income countries. So we really want to have a conversation that's global. We come from a European perspective but we want to see if we can diversify those perspectives. Now we're of course at a summit that focuses on growth in jobs. And one might say, well, what place does the future of migration have in that conversation? And I'd suggest to you that migration is a crucial part of the business toolbox. It's core to our global economy. But because migration has focused often in the public debate on irregular migration and asylum it's become very politicised. And we want to step back in this conversation and look very much at the economic dimensions while not neglecting the human side and the social side of those movements. We've often thought about aspects of the free movement of goods, services and finance as separate from the movement of labour across borders. And I think it's important when we think about the global economy to bring those back together to empower business and the public sector to work together to create better policies that bring better opportunities for all. How do we create those win-win opportunities for people on the move, for sending and receiving countries and also for business and the economy? In a recent Economist article it was recognised that we could soon face a global competition for talent. Far from competing to keep people out, states and businesses may soon face a challenge of how to attract the brightest and the best. But it's in that context that I hope will have a really rich, wide-ranging, but yet focused conversation around the future particularly of labour migration and people on the move with the aspiration to contribute to our economies and our societies. So if I might, I'll start with you, my linda. And if I could ask you how is it that you think we might shape migration in order to be beneficial for migrants, sending countries and receiving countries? How can we strive for those win-win outcomes, do you think? Well, thank you very much for giving me the floor first with the toughest question on earth when it comes to migration. And I think if you're going to like to ask all the leaders and politicians on that one, they will just start like speaking around or having some great words, but then the problem is how we face when we touch, is a problem whenever we are confronted with the reality. So I come from the western Balkans. So I am an Albanian and I work in Bosnia, Herzegovina now on all the western Balkans and southeast Europe. And we were looking at the figures as we usually do and not only for the purpose of this panel, but even for myself I was astonished to see that like two years ago the stock of migrants from the western Balkans, everywhere else globally exceeded 4.6 million. So people from the western Balkans are like the largest diaspora. It's almost the same number of Poles that left their country during the migration phases, but consider that Poland is like the double of the western Balkans, like 17.5. We are 17.5% million inhabitants in the region. So I come from a region that has exported migration and has as well been part of the joint forces, as it is part of the European common policy on migration, because you know that the foreign policy of the western Balkans is aligned with the EC policy. So for us we have like the two fold or two sides of the coin. And we do know that by exporting migrants then we lose a lot of talents. You lose like the intellectual capacity in the region and that is pretty hard to be like substituted in a near time. So we see that people from the western Balkans, especially those who have like worse skill, talented in like ICT, but even like doctors and nurses and even like the experts or the workers and lately even the low skilled workers are highly asked from the European countries like Germany for example. So from one side I say that this should be kept in mind as well. While every or any EU or a western country as well has a necessity for workers or migrants, the first thing is first to come to a discussion and open a clear and transparent discussion with the countries where they are coming from. And you might have heard about the discussion that the Albanian Prime Minister was having with the German Chancellor whenever it goes to the cost of one doctor or nurse out of the system. So it's almost like 150,000 euros per one doctor that the state is investing in educating the doctor. And then what happens? Immediately after we just go to Germany. So I think that transparency is there in need and I'm not speaking of those operational, let's say plans that the EU has been asked to every country in respecting the migration or trying to manage the migration flows like the control of border, like avoiding or limiting the number of smuggling migrants which brings again to another big problem like of human trafficking and so on. The second thing is like communication. We live in a time when this information and bad news is really ruining our lives. And I know as it usually said in the British or western media if it doesn't bleed it doesn't bleed. We are portraying migrants as creatures who are coming only to destroy your country image projecting and bringing problems as well. Kidnapping or being part of the organized crime or drug dealers and so on. And again this happened with Albanians in UK unfortunately during the last months even like from a minister of UK, the interior minister. This doesn't help the story of migrants and this doesn't help building a narrative that migrants are always like wanted but never welcomed. Or it helps building this narrative but it doesn't make them and their families feeling welcomed. On the other side of the coin from the Balkans I think there is a lot to be done. We should invest more and that was the focus of our discussions today supporting innovation, supporting the start-upers trying to invest more in research and education. In the region it's only 0.4% invested budgetary wise in the research innovation and education. This makes the people and especially the youngsters and when I speak of the region I speak of six countries of the western Balkans. The youngsters that are 34% unemployed to leave their countries and by leaving their countries they are voting on their feet. This brings to me another example and the bigger panorama of the democracy in our countries and then how we do treat migrants. Usually we are welcoming. Hospitality is high but whenever we need to keep focus on drafting aligning policies and having strategies to keep our people in the region it's not that we are really like doing great. I hope I gave a kind of an answer. It's a great answer. Three really important messages there that we need to have the sending countries in the conversation whether it's in the western Balkans or elsewhere. We need to challenge narratives of stigma and demonisation for instance of Albanians in parts of Europe including my own country and we also need to recognise that educational opportunities and the availability of opportunities for young people has a huge bearing. Bettina maybe we could come to you and think about the kind of regulatory framework in some of those receiving countries. What benefits do you think policies like temporary work visas but also mobility partnerships can offer in terms of creating these kinds of economic opportunities from which everyone can benefit? Well thank you for attributing the easiest question to me on this panel because I can confirm from the private sector perspective that any of these policy instruments is beneficial. Anything that will foster and allow for migration is welcome and I'm here wearing two hats as it is. One as a major employer around the world who of course is the first recipient himself of a very mobile workforce and therefore depends again on every possible legal way that governments and organisations find in making this migration and mobility happen and on the other side we are as the ADECO group one of the largest staffing companies that is there to facilitate the employment of workers of all skills levels and of all nationalities to the demand side and there of course we are the first ones who would be delighted to put migrants to work to provide that opportunity in a very again legal well coordinated way with contracts that are linked with benefits with training opportunities. In many countries where allowed we provide skilling and up skilling starting with language opportunities of course. So this per se is a policy instrument which unfortunately though I must say is not given in every country. Here I can and I have to mention the example of Germany right now where we know that integration of migrants like in so many other countries is highly political but for some reason there is a proposal on the table right now which would not allow private employment services companies again to provide that first entry job in Germany. So coming back to the broad question let's not be shy and throw everything we have in the policy instrument toolbox at ensuring that migrants can work where they are. And are there particular policies that you'd really like to see if there was one policy that you as the group would like to see introduced what would it be? I think here I would like to focus on the skills recognition piece because too often do we see that as a hindrance for migrants to then also take the step once all the legal elements are out of the way usually there is an element of skills recognition that then is another tumbling stone. So if we could focus on that one as well it's the growth summit, it's the jobs angle I think that would be a game changer. Ben I can see you nodding throughout in the agreement does it look similar from your perspective in the US? Completely I think I love that comment I love that point. I think you really have two issues as we get to the job point and we were talking earlier there's a whole gap before you even get to the point of jobs but when you get to the point of jobs there's real gaps in terms of really connecting these migrants with the work and it depends on under which circumstances that migrant happens and occurs and how you're moving but another is absolutely it's how you access those skills how do we know what skills these workers have so if you connect the companies and the jobs to the workers how can we be certain they actually have the jobs and the skills necessary to do that work so I think that's really important. So we've covered a little bit a perspective from sending countries we've thought a little bit about the perspective of regulation within receiving countries and how that affects the role that business has in creating mobility opportunities let's maybe perhaps touch Nana on the perspective of migrants themselves the people on the move you're now working with IFRC there's a big human and indeed humanitarian dimension to mobility could you perhaps tell us a little bit about what you think the needs are in terms of protection fair wages, flexibility opportunities to learn and flourish what would you like to accentuate from a migrants perspective? Thank you very much and thank you for the opportunity to take a humanitarian perspective into this my background is also in the World Bank and IFC and of course there we talked a lot about the jobs and skills and vocational training and how we can grow economies through the growth of jobs and inclusion right but now what we see in Red Cross being in 192 countries and covering practically all the points of origin all the countries where these people move through and the final destinations and this is not just country to country I also wanted to say that it happens within countries and maybe equally difficult to go from one community to another one and look for livelihood and for jobs we're talking about all this millions of people that we through our 192 national societies we see on a daily basis we see them at what we call humanitarian service points we see women and children we see issues that happen there we see difficulties of let's say moving to Darian Gap in Panama and all these people who move from Central America towards the US it's just heart breaking it's heart breaking and now we talk about what happens when they reach their final destination before they can even think about jobs they need a place to live they need some food, they need some medicine they need some help and access perhaps to health education, they need to put their kids to school and Bettina you mentioned the language barrier even before we start talking about integrating them into the economy they have all this kind of life issues that someone needs to take care of and this is where humanitarian organisations normally would come in they would provide shelter, food medicine, cash more increasingly to let them settle in a dignified way and I wanted to highlight this programme together with Turkish Red Crescent we support 1.8 million Syrian refugees on a monthly basis through funding by the European Union which is absolutely huge it's half of the Syrian refugees in Turkey so that they can have a dignified settling in and that was happening in the initial phases but now with the help of Turkish Red Crescent the vocational training volunteers working with with those migrants helping them understand the language how to write job applications very human touch person to person we have been able to see huge progress of integrating those migrants into the economy they became sought after in particular sectors in particular regions of Turkey and I could see that path actually as a path where we can collaborate together the humanitarians, the governments and all the policies that Bettina talked about the skilling, the jobs the private sector will create and then some development organisations also will probably have some role also to stimulate that so that's how I see the whole journey from beginning to them actually being properly included in the economy so throughout that journey the human side is important and the social protection piece is an important complement to everything else for somebody to be able to contribute they have to be able to flourish would anyone else like to come in on that perspective Melinda you've focused a little bit on the experience for instance of migrants from the western Balkans when they move for instance to western Europe and face particular challenges for millions are there measures that you think businesses and governments can take to better integrate migrants in order to enable them to flourish within labour markets again like I'm thinking two-folded the biggest problem whenever I see societies that are like or as we started like with the growth summit emerging markets developed countries or not fully developed ones the biggest problem is like how to make great use of your own resources and then definitely enhance everything with the help of others like be those foreign direct investments and so on and I see that whenever it comes especially to this region so I cannot speak globally because it's not that I'm writing my PhD thesis in here I'm working with the western Balkans and that's why I'm using that and it's still like last year western Balkans was the number one the major route for the flow of migrants to the other European countries and that's why it made as well EU filling a bit more actions and keeping the western Balkans immediately aligned and made all the ministers of interior signed those 20 operational tasks in order to have and follow migratory policy with the EU the problem and the idea of the migrants and especially today is not that they don't know that their countries are not as rich as another western country the problem is that they have been waiting so long and again I'm referring to this region I'm not speaking like to other continents Africa or so on another story can be in another judgment or analysis will be valid in there they have been waiting for too long for their countries to improve highly and to be functioning democracies with a functioning market where all the youngsters could find a job and not to be unemployed where the women can find a job in the labour market where conflicts between societies are not going to ruin their lives during the war after the war and then even afterwards and by not facing this kind of realities within their own countries then it comes a moment in life when children grew up they become parents and their hopes are like drying and fading out and they are thinking on their own children and that's what's happening with the western Balkans make it like or combine it with the demographic changes so we are not really like giving birth to babies as this was a trend like ten years ago so the societies are growing older people that are leaving are building up the diaspora the diaspora is keeping their families alive in the region or making them live like within the standard by bringing their remittances or money back and then you have the youngsters who are eager even like the societies changed social media gave to them a lot of more frustration they want to live a life that is happier life in colours their parents waited for 30 years they cannot think that they should wait for another 30 years as long as they will be either in a new member state for example or then they will be as good as in a new member state and then builds day by day the story of migrants so it's not even a flux they are not leaving like the Ukrainians from the war or like the Bosnians were leaving 30 years ago they don't think they deserve the reality they are leaving with leaving with and leaving too and this makes the story a bit more different this is a different type of migrants and I'm totally of scheme now you didn't tell me anyone told me that I was going to speak about this nevertheless so but there is a different typology of migrant in this perspective it's not the migrant who is leaving from Ukraine and they are joining somebody like a family member or somebody they know in Austria or somewhere else and they are just leaving their country because there is a war in there the migrants coming from regions that are within this kind of development like the western Balkans are the migrants that are protesting and this is like another message that the countries that are receiving these migrants should understand something is not going wrong only in terms of economic development in this country but it's going wrong in terms of offering the chances to the people to stay and build their life in their home lands so for me this is a different story of migrants and that's why you hear more on the smuggling and these smuggling cycles have been like stopped some years ago a really important reminder that migration takes place in the context of hope and aspiration but also I think what you've emphasised is that the opportunities for people to move have an effect on the opportunities for people back home that remittances, deasprous form and those transnational connections are very important for economic opportunity Nenna you wanted to come in You inspired me to just to think about prevention right, migration is a consequence in a way the numbers that you provided for 2021 more than 90% of migration happened because of the climate change issues right and I'm linking migration also to again at the origin side not that what happens when people actually move to what we can collectively do between development actors government to prevent people from migrating building better homes stronger more resilient communities so that they don't need to run away whenever the next flood or drought come right so I wouldn't like to lose the thought of prevention because we often talk about the consequence and then the second point that I wanted to mention and you said it as well it's highly political especially in European context but also American context to talk about migration and we as Red Cross even though that's one of the core areas of our activities this is where it's really heartbreaking to support people who move through this humanitarian service point there is no funding for this per se for the humanitarian angle so the only option for us is to pursue prevention at the origin right or to work with like the example in Turkey with the government and private sector to create opportunities for those people when they land in a certain place Athena I need to pick this up and this is highly politically incorrect and I'm the private sector so who am I to talk but it's highly political and that's exactly the point isn't it there are certain governments that are picking the topic up but too many are just going eyes shut at this now the notion of rights based labour migration agreements how can we today in 2023 still not have in place agreements between countries that recognize that this is a reality and what triggered me you mentioned the interior ministers now we're at the growth summit or the jobs summit how often do labour ministers also sit at that table as far as I know never now this is all an indication for me on how this topic is just not being given the attention that it should we talk about the future of labour migration it's the present of migration that we need to look at and just finally look ourselves in the mirror all government representatives I call on you this how much longer can we continue to let this happen as it is and the private sector is here to step in to step up to take on to give jobs we're only waiting right there is the talent shortage we need migrants and by the way I think we need to differentiate between refugees and migrants as well but as it is as you can see a very strong emotional call to make this the priority that it should be finally a really strong call for us to take this seriously as not only the business sector but also the public sector this brings me nicely to the final question I'd like to ask before we'll open up to all of you and the audience and Ben I want to come to you and it wouldn't be the World Economic Forum without me asking about what role public-private partnership and collaboration can play in this space at Velocity Global you sit at the forefront of the competition for talent what kind of role do you foresee for public-private partnership in this space you know so much of it was actually talked about in various forms here today what's clear is that the losers in this space are those who provide protectionism in their countries right if there's protectionism not allowing the visas, not allowing people to work making it difficult for people to work in those countries whether it's from a refugee perspective whether it's kind of a force migration or whether it's simply post-pandemic people wanting the ability to work from anywhere which is this whole distributed work thing has absolutely changed I mean look no further than the migration that has happened from Silicon Valley up to Vancouver and Toronto I mean so many incredibly talented workers have come to the US in the tech industry who in the last three four years have woken up and said you know I just don't this doesn't feel like the place for me anymore because of some of the policies so that great talent that we have brought to the US has since moved across the border into a place that is more welcoming and look no further too than there's certain governments who have actually really embraced this distributed work and provided one year working visas for anybody who wants to come work in the country and completely reducing and lasting some of the controls you still have to have a visa but come on, come work in our country for a year how much does that benefit the home country as well as that host country because maybe you stay potentially you're bringing good jobs to it you potentially may move back home but then have a network of great workers in that country that build up western jobs in that place and so that collaboration absolutely needs to take place and again we're talking kind of on both ends of the extreme whether it's that distributed worker two out of every three workers say they want to work somewhere different and if you go to the director and above level it's three out of four so it's up and down the organization people want the ability to work from somewhere else companies have to be able to provide it governments need to get on board to say we need to enable this to happen but on the other end of the spectrum when it's potentially not that employees or that individual's choice I have to flee this country I have to migrate for particular reason we have to work with local governments to make that connection the basic human needs have to be taken care of but you're right that next step is we have to connect the companies with the actual workers and there's a huge opportunity there with Red Cross with obviously with governments themselves to catalog to get those those skills documented in such a way where we can connect the two together Bettina here unfortunately I'm in the recruitment space but guys there's too many companies out there that are just criminals they're road providers we've worked together as an industry with the international organization of migration to put in place fair recruitment standards and of course what we need here is to enforce those and to police and be ruthless for all of those and you alluded to it you did as well all those illicit illegal terrible human trafficking like conditions again that is not acceptable so let's work in that case we are the legal compliant well regulated industry standing ready to make this happen let's do that and let's clamp down all the bad guys so business needs government in order to liberalize but also to regulate appropriately and government also needs business so there's scope to work together let's open up we've had a lot of food for thought hopefully it's whetted your appetite and you have questions and ideas you'd like to contribute so please raise your hand if you'd like to come in and if you could introduce yourself that would be great hello my name is Kim Smarter I'm the director general of the European Network Against Racism I thank the panel for the discussions and also for the nuances that you've brought to the debate and one of the questions I wanted to ask the panel is how do we challenge the narrative so we see particularly in western Europe that there are a number of countries a number of governments and we're saying it could be part of the solution but at the moment we're actually contributing to this environment of fear to the scape boating of migrants to this idea that migrants are costing social security and those types of things how do we actually count the narrative with the fact that actually migrants are necessary migrants are going to be the key to ensuring that social security systems across Europe actually are viable and yet somehow that conversation doesn't come through the conversation we hear is very much the illegal migration, the inability of migrants to contribute and to integrate so I wonder what can we do to actually count to that narrative so that we actually can deliver solutions which are factual based and evidence based how do we change the narrative in order to shift the politics that you've described another very straightforward easy question for you all yes so I'll take it as usual I love it and now of course the ADECO group is one of the founding members and my colleague Bruce Rock incredibly involved so very nice to see you I didn't know you were here so nice surprise how do we challenge the narrative guys you know these are all you know we know it all it's all out there right so do we need a big campaign do we just need do we need honesty do we need you know the good examples yes I mean we as a company do everything we can to bring the good examples usually I'm now pointing fingers to the media and the press they don't want to hear those they want to hear the bad stuff it's one of those policy areas where the system is broken and we're letting it happen so I'm one of those who finds it unacceptable as you can see it there's players out there who are willing to shift it to your to answer your question I would say it's a campaign it's a positive campaign right and honesty perhaps with humanitarian diplomacy at all levels obviously EU is obvious what we see is that governments are struggling to convince their domestic population that this makes sense and this is where every single individual in that particular country has a role to play to understand the benefits because that's where the governments get shy from supporting migrants and migration and I would say all the work that we are doing is right across you know and that as well I mean there's an inherent friction and conflict in that your voter base as these governments right are we're going to protect your jobs and it's such an easy easy talk track and it can be so bastardized as you take it to those nth degree levels and I think that's something honestly that we'll probably always fight against and so many of the regulations that we see pop up around the world are related to that right it's really kind of an easy too easy of a talk track pandering to that voter base and whatever country that happens to be in the good news is there is no more exciting time in the history of the world of democratizing work we today have the ability to actually employ people anywhere right there's new platforms in place there's accessibility you have the ability to hire people anywhere and I got the jobs report I looked at the jobs report this morning so I didn't have a chance to review the whole thing it's a 300 page document it's going to take me a little while but the first few pages that I read and I got through is are having a labor shortage but the more up and coming markets are still dealing with some real issues around unemployment and with migration that you can help some of these countries where they have a labor shortage you just have to be able to access that talent and it's like it's a completely different conversation but on a panel earlier today someone said you're not going to lose your job due to AI you're going to lose your job because someone is using AI in their job you have to embrace it if you're an employer you need to be able to go find access talent anywhere and if you're not accessing talent that may not be being accessed in that country because of racism because of bias because of those sort of things the local companies are going to miss out because there's incredible talent sitting right there at your fingertips and if you truly democratize it and make it global which is really starting to happen you can force people on that path Well, I'm starting to enjoy myself in this narrative now so I was thinking like we need leadership not small minded people not politicians that will make misuse of every migrant flow only for their daily politics and to cover up a bit whatever is going wrong within their national politics we need partnership definitely public and private partnership we need innovation we have to think on how to innovate first and open our minds as I said whenever it comes to the certain or different levels or typology of migrants and we need a great communication because bad news is always good news but by always emphasizing on bad news then we are not doing anything else but just losing the sense of the whole story there are countries that have been build up and societies that leave due to the contribution of migrants and this is not going to change in a near future not even in mid term there will always be people in need to migrate and that's the sense of mobility that's the sense of leaving borderless as well to move freely but in certain moments of time and of life we need to have strong minded people not small minded people and the partnership as well and communication as I said the main three things that we can all do together and as a researcher I'd be remiss if I didn't sort of also say that evidence has an important role to play in this that there's a big behavioural science piece underlying this about knowing what levers we can shift from the public and private sector to change public attitudes amongst the general population politics yes Cyndi Godwin head of social responsibility for the management consulting from Alex partners also on the board of global dignity and NGO founded at the world economic forum I appreciate all the different perspectives that we've heard today this is such a huge topic my question is for Bettina when you said for the private sector to step up if an organization a global organization has not been accustomed to integrating migrant workers into its pipeline and into its organizational culture where do you suggest that they start is it country by country or systemically from the top or somewhere else I suggest that they reach out to a private employment services company to support them in the process great way to start I would know one specifically and no the country by country aspect makes sense to me but this is where the notion of partnership comes in as well reach out to your community there will be centers that know that there are migrants in that area so it's not even country it's region or even city by city and actually make it a program obviously internally that fits your culture that is being communicated broadly so engage all your employees from early on and communicate on it the way that we've been talking about so go at it with a big bang I would say as well create the partnerships as local as possible because in all countries where you operate there will be slight differences which you have to take into consideration also when it comes to the labour laws to actually employ the migrants more actually a comment or at least sort of backing up with Bettina mentioned Catherine Brown and with visa used to be where the world I can inform in fact and this is a very dear topic to my heart but once I started at visa two years ago we wanted about it just that way when I brought the topic of migration to what we do I'm the head of inclusive impact and sustainability so I looked at it as we're a huge company at least with scale for financial empowerment in particular digital and financial skills for migration and I actually approached very much with hands in front of my eyes and my CEO ready to get smacked and say what are you thinking this is absolutely too political no visa's doors swung wide open so this is brilliant what can we do we'd love to help and actually where we're making progress is on talent much more so than actually is what we do as a business our core business because we are heavily regulated industry and there is so much that we need to fix visa v KYC know your consumer and migration so it's interesting because I actually thought a lot of the hesitation would be coming from the institution from the organization absolutely not it's still the regulatory environment around that just isn't designed to allow for looking at all communities so it's more of a comment than a question but to your point Bettina very much how we want about it Hi thank you very much for the lovely insights my name is Johanna Coutava I work on an NGO in Greece and we make sure to provide free medicines to non-profits including for migrants and refugees we work with unused medicine and one of the things that we've worked a lot on is obtaining real time data on the needs that exist on the demographics on the populations of beneficiaries we are serving and it has been a major challenge and we do this through technology and I was wondering you also mentioned behavioural sciences for studying how the public may react to policies that could be even very progressive and I was wondering from your experience what are the gaps you're observing in terms of knowing the situation of migration in our countries right now like knowing who are the people that have migrated what are their skills what are the situations and if there are such gaps such unknown factors what problems are those creating thank you it's a very big question to end on what do you not know that you would like to know all these things that you mentioned are important right where do they come from do they plan to stay do they plan just to transit the skills as you said the experience the languages and we were following that the humanitarian service points for all the people living in Ukraine it was mostly women and children into all I think 10 plus countries neighbouring countries so there is some data on it I would say in Ukrainian case certainly better than in some other cases but I'm not sure that we're also good at sharing for example and in your case in Greece I mean it would be good question to Greek Red Cross to understand whether they have the data on all the migrants into Greece this is a very big topic and one we could continue to speak about for a very long time in order to think about the future of migration we've also had to grapple very much with the present of migration and all the panellists there's been a very strong call that the regulatory framework as it is and the politics underlying it isn't fit to create the kind of liberal opportunities and freedom of movement that's needed by business and by the economy so one of the challenges I think all the panellists have laid down very clearly is how we cooperate better across the public and private sectors globally, nationally but also I've heard a very strong emphasis on the local in order to open up those opportunities for the benefits of migrants, receiving countries sending countries and business and the economy so the challenges for all of us to grapple with thank you very much Ben Nenna, Bettina, Mylinda and all of you for your great questions and engagement