 You're watching FJTN, the Federal Judicial Television Network. Even if I have determined that I'm going to change my life, and I'm going to do the right thing, I do not see my professionals or parole officers as an asset. I see them as a liability. From the FJTN studio in Washington, D.C., this is Professional Responsibility, Post-Sentence Supervision. Here's your host, Mark Sherman. Welcome to the program. Today we pick up where we left off in our last program in April 2003, analyzing officers' post-sentence supervision responsibilities in the context of the Charter for Excellence. To help us understand these responsibilities better, we use a real-world example. In 1993, Tiffany Logan pleaded guilty to conspiracy to distribute cocaine base at the Southern District of Ohio. She was sentenced to 23 months in prison, followed by three years of supervised release. At the time of her sentencing, Ms. Logan was 25 years old and a single mother of two small children. Ms. Logan began her supervision the following year, 1994, under the guidance of U.S. Probation Officer Tina Anchorham. Special conditions included participation in testing and, if necessary, treatment for drug and alcohol abuse, as well as a mental health assessment to determine the necessity of counseling. Ultimately, Officer Anchorham determined that Ms. Logan was not in need of substance abuse counseling but did require mental health treatment. She referred Ms. Logan to the district's treatment provider where she came under the care of counselor Catherine Tercer. Ms. Logan completed her treatment in May 1995. Things seemed to be going well, but Ms. Logan had a secret, something she had hidden from Officer Anchorham and from Ms. Tercer. It would be six long months before that secret was revealed. In November 1995, Ms. Logan telephoned Officer Anchorham and finally told her that since February 1995, she had been involved in a relationship with an individual who was also under federal supervision, a clear violation. However, that was only part of the problem. Ms. Logan described a troubled relationship that had turned dangerously violent. Officer Anchorham immediately instructed Ms. Logan to obtain medical treatment, to call the police if necessary, and to have no further contact with this individual. Unfortunately, Ms. Logan chose to continue the relationship and very soon, another violent episode occurred. This time, Ms. Logan was stabbed several times and ended up in the hospital. Her life was in a tragic downward spiral. On Officer Anchorham's recommendation, the court modified Ms. Logan's conditions to include a state or community corrections center. However, while at the center, Ms. Logan had a verbal altercation with a staff member and that ultimately led Officer Anchorham to recommend revocation. Instead, the court continued Ms. Logan on supervision, including two months of home confinement with electronic monitoring. It was at this point that Ms. Logan began to turn her life around. She re-entered counseling with Ms. Tercer. She ended her dysfunctional relationship. She went on to satisfy her electronic monitoring requirement and in November 1996, a year after revealing her violent relationship, Ms. Logan completed treatment. The next year, 1997, Ms. Logan finished her term of supervised release and since that time I'm pleased to report Tiffany Logan has remained on the right side of the law. Currently, she's employed full-time at the Ohio State Reformatory for Women, where she works as a registered candidate substance abuse counselor in the tapestry therapeutic community. She's also a personal trainer at various facilities for children and adults and I am very pleased to welcome to the program Tiffany Logan and Tina Anchorham. Welcome. Tiffany, was Tina an asset or a liability at the beginning of your supervision? She was neither. What she represented to me was the justice system that had recently let me down, so she was definitely not an asset. And when you think about the experience that you had had in prison and then coming off of that experience into the halfway house, what had you heard about provision officers and what was your experience before you had even entered supervision that may have influenced your attitude toward Officer Anchorham at the beginning of the supervision experience? Well, while in prison, you hear rumors or stories of more lenient probation officers or, you know, very by-the-book probation officers and since it was a federal prison, there wasn't a lot of people from Columbus. So specific names weren't mentioned. However, Tina had done my PSI so I had some interaction with her already. So you already had what to expect. And what was that impression? Very by-the-book, very stringent, very non-bending, just very, very strict. So was it fair to say... I was just going to say, is it fair to say you weren't looking forward to working with her? Not at all. Tina Anchorham, same question. Your impressions of Tiffany, particularly because you were able to do the PSI and then the supervision, which is unusual in a lot of districts and in fact is not even the way your district does it these days, what were your impressions of Tiffany both during the investigation and then at the beginning of supervision and what were some of your concerns? Actually, when I completed Tiffany's pre-settings report, I thought she had a lot of strengths. She was a high school graduate. She was very involved in school, good grades, a lot of extracurricular activities. And she had had an experience on pretrial supervision as well. And I gather that that was a fairly uneventful experience. It was. She also had the support of an extended family and minimal prior record. She had a no-ops and an open container violation. So I felt that when Tiffany began her term of supervision that it would be pretty uneventful that she would do well on supervision. Okay. Were there any concerns that you had had about potential pitfalls or problems that might come up? Well, this was Tiffany's first term of supervision. So it was all new to her. I knew that it would take time for her to adjust and, you know, possibly to understand what was expected of her. However, Tiffany did a term of a stay at the local halfway house. And she did very well there. So I thought that things would go smoothly. Now, Tiffany said that she was not looking forward to working with you and to this term of supervision. How would you characterize the beginning of the supervision relationship and talk a little bit about that? Wasn't so easy at first? No. I mean, at the beginning, Tiffany was not looking forward to it. It was obvious. She questioned a lot of the conditions and why I was requiring things. She did very well at the halfway house. She obtained a very well-paying job. She saved for an apartment. She had an apartment. She reunited with her two young children. She completed drug treatment while she was there and did very well. So when she started supervision, I think she viewed me as why was I being so tough on her because she did well. But with every case, I go over the conditions very thoroughly, my expectations and what she needs to do to succeed on supervision. But Tiffany questioned a lot of that. She thought I was being tough on her and she actually ended up contacting my supervisor to ask for a new supervision officer because she felt that it was personal and that I was asking more than I should. Is that a fair assessment? Very much so. I felt I was doing everything that she asked me to, satisfactory and she just would not leave me alone. I just didn't understand why she just focused on me so much. I felt like there was someone else that was not doing what she wanted and that she could have been focused on. So you did contact your supervisor to try to get another officer? I did. Didn't work. Didn't work. I wanted to talk to you about that, Tina. What was that like for you? It didn't surprise me because Tiffany was vocal during office visits, home visits. She didn't like what I was asking. The reason I asked the question is that because in this Charter for Excellence a part in that Charter that says treat everyone with dignity and respect, including the individual under supervision, she's just disrespected you by going over your head to try to find another officer. So what's it like to have to try to continue to treat that person with dignity and respect when she's just dissed you? Does it play into your attitude or should it play into your attitude and did it in this case? It didn't. It didn't surprise me. I understood where she was coming from. It was her first term of supervision. I could understand her feeling picked on because she was doing well. But it didn't impact our relationship. It's happened before. Others have asked for new officers. But that was okay. I understood how she was feeling. And my supervisor even told Tiffany, even if I transfer you to another officer, you're going to have to follow the same conditions. So it didn't impact how I interacted with her or my expectations. Let's talk about, now we know that a couple of the special conditions dealt with assessments and ultimately if necessary treatment, either with substance abuse or mental health or both. How did the notion, you had completed a substance abuse program while you were in the halfway house. How did, and you had gotten through that program and you had transitioned on to supervision effectively, how did it feel when Tina said to you, you got to go through the substance abuse assessment. You got to go through this mental health assessment. Did that sort of further impact your attitude toward the supervision at that point? I think that was the turning point where I was like, I think this is personal. I don't understand. And at that point I didn't understand how can you make an assessment. That's not your field. You're a probation officer. That's all you do. You want to put me back in prison. And because I was doing well, I thought at that time that she didn't like that. Apparently I didn't know if she had a ratio of, but I was doing well, maybe she didn't want me to do well. So now she wants to try this. So that just made it worse for you. Now in terms of what your job is and what your expertise is, Tiffany had completed this substance abuse treatment program at the halfway house. She had an assessment and potentially counseling special condition on her as part of her conditions. You had to resort to a, we talked in the charter about a multi-dimensional knowledge base and that officers, one of the things that makes officers unique in terms of as a profession is this multi-dimensional knowledge base. You had to make some determinations about whether Tiffany needed the, after the assessments, would need particular types of treatment and whether it would be both types of treatment or one or the other and the case that she had been convicted on was a drug case. She had been through substance abuse treatment at the halfway house. How did you make the determination ultimately that it wasn't really about a substance abuse thing, it was a mental health thing? Well, there were several areas of concern in Tiffany's case. As you mentioned, it was a drug conviction and prior to Tiffany committing this federal offense, she didn't have a significant drug history but she started down that path, was involved in using drugs and for a period of her life, things were not going well. So she needed a substance abuse assessment for those reasons. Also, what I identified more so was mental health treatment and basically that was more grief related. She had suffered several losses within a short period of time. Her fiance was murdered. She lost her grandmother. And all of this had been brought to light as part of the pre-sentence investigation. Sorry, Tiffany, you were the one who said that. But it was probably in a six month period. So this is very close together. Yes, and when I did her pre-sentence report, when I was asking her background questions slowly all of this information came out. When I interviewed her mother and family members I gathered more information about those issues. She also suffered a loss at her apartment where a fire engulfed her apartment and she lost most of her material possessions. Right, so clearly there were things happening in her life that were not necessarily substance abuse related directly and there were sort of parallel things happening and having gone through this assessment process you then as the officer were able to draw from your own experience and knowledge base to make certain determinations and point Tiffany in a particular direction. Yes, I mean there were significant losses in a short time. The other factor was that her career goal was to be a firefighter and she was turned down for that because of her hearing loss. So with all of that information together I thought that mental health counseling would be helpful to help her through all that grief that she suffered in a short amount of time and never had the time to address it. Alright, we have a rocky start to the beginning of the supervision relationship and we want to, over the rest of the program examine how that relationship developed and I think to do that might be a good time now to bring on Katherine Tercer. We're going to take a short break. What we're going to do now is take a short break so we can bring on Katherine Tercer who was the treatment provider in Tiffany's situation. In the meantime, faxes your comments, your questions and we'll take them up later in the program. Also, I wanted to remind you that there's a participant guide for this program that contains vignettes of professionally responsible behavior by officers and which can be used for discussion in your district. As you know, the Charter for Excellence was held at the 2000 and 2002 chief's conferences and at the 2002 conference we had an opportunity to interview some folks from the Office of Probation and Pre-Trial Services at the AO as well as some chiefs to get their reaction and impressions to what was just then an idea about the Charter and their hopes for it in their districts and in the system as a whole. So while we're away, take a look at that and we'll be back in a moment. The Charter for Excellence will go a long way towards articulating what our values are and who we want to be and we'll take us to the next level. To have a Charter to be able to bring back to the district that officers and other staff can see and work with whether they're in Arizona or Maine or Guam it's something that we can use to build a more national vision of who we are and what we're about. I was really struck by the commitment and the passion that the fellow chiefs have for this commitment, this Charter of Excellence and I like the principles that we put forward I want to take those back to my district and I want to be able to share that vision and get that commitment and that passion with my staff. It just really inspired me to really go back to my staff and talk about some of the things that happened here and to actually challenge them to have that integrity to be a big part of what's going on and have some invested interest. I really feel that our time is now. This is our opportunity. Welcome back. Katherine, welcome to the program. Thank you. You were the treatment provider for Tiffany. Talk about your impression of her when you first met her and the kinds of issues she presented and particularly interested, you and I had had a prior conversation for the program, particularly interested in your insights about the effect of prison on an individual's behavior and what that might do, how it might play out in a supervision relationship and a treatment situation that is part of a supervision and a supervision relationship. One of the things that happened when Tiffany started, of course it was an assessment process. That usually takes about four times of meeting for about an hour. I always really encourage clients, including Tiffany, just use that time to really talk about what's going on and to be really clear, there's a difference between therapy which is really about the quality of your life and the quality of how you're feeling what are the skills that you need to create for yourself, how you interact with other people and so it's really about that and it's not, you know, don't work for federal probation, it's a very kind of separate thing but also being really clear that we do share and that, you know, that Tina, of course, continues to be part of this and to be really clear about that for Tiffany, she came in at a time that she was very sad I think that's the best way that I can think to describe it that she had a lot of really difficult things happen in her life including the loss of a loved one recently a loss of a fiancé in a pretty violent way A lot of the things that Tina had talked about and, you know, a loss of a career opportunity that was, you know, really exciting the loss of a home, if you can imagine just the kinds of things that would trigger that and you mentioned also the experience of being in prison away from small children and just imagine being a single mother so all of these things stress if you can imagine just the incredible amount of stress and I also saw this incredibly strong woman the fact that you were able to keep a job and you were able to keep going with the conditions that Tina had established with you you know what, amazing and so very sad, lots of pain a lot of grief work is kind of the way that I would think to describe it and just kind of readjusting to choices in the community all that kind of stuff is going on Stop you there, Tiffany first let me get your reaction Is that an accurate assessment of where you were in your life at that time? Tell me about what the loss of that job opportunity the firefighter job opportunities that meant to you and I think that is worth just for a second elaborating on it basically tell me again what you told me about the break Well that was just following the death of my fiance and I had already taken the test and was virtually hired I think in top 3% of 200 men and women It was a career just a job and just because of something that I didn't have any control over I had a hearing loss and they couldn't hire me so that right behind everything else in a very short period of time it was just devastating Tina, reaction as you were listening to this in terms of where Tiffany was and how the treatment process got started Well I had identified those issues when I told Tiffany that I wanted her to go through the assessment she didn't want to be involved in that so although she knew that she suffered these losses she was like I can get through this I don't need your help I don't need treatment so she was adamant not to be involved I had it was a year later I don't want to open that stuff up I want to keep going forward that was my thought process What's your reaction to that My reaction was it can be healthy at the beginning to compartmentalize and to just say I'm not going to deal with that I need to keep going On the other hand that stuff is always back there and in my assessment we talked quite a bit about the things that had happened and I really encouraged Tiffany to continue the things that we needed to talk about She never even cried about for that whole year I cried a lot a lot And so stuff that she needed to work through and I was going to say Tina provided her with a choice a choice to say you've gone through the assessment process do you choose to keep doing this That was a big thing because at that time Tina and I had started to build a report whether it was love-hate relationship whatever you want to call it I think you had come some way from where you had begun She gave me an option She suggested that she thought it would be a good idea but she gave me an option to say I'll let you think about it regardless whether or not she was really going to let me think about it I'll let you think about it I have some control now I haven't had control over my life for so long That's a good feeling Why did you do that? This was a special condition of her release but you're presenting it as an option How does that work? The special condition was that she undergoes substance abuse and mental health assessment and treatment if necessary required Catherine completed the assessment It's not optional You will go through the assessment but we'll take it from there But Catherine recommended short-term counseling Catherine and I discussed this and then I sat down with Tiffany and discussed it What I had told Tiffany is it would be short-term counseling We would work around her schedule because we didn't talk about this earlier but she had a good paying job but it was an hour out of town We wanted to work with her We were going to do alternating weeks We were doing it so it would be convenient but also I didn't want Tiffany to view it as punitive I wanted her to view the counseling as beneficial So that is why I gave her an option because I didn't want her to look at this as mandatory I wanted her to benefit So when she was in my office I explained all this to her I told her I would give her a week to think about it It was optional for her I wanted her to grow from it That's something you would necessarily do with another individual It really depends on the facts of the specific individual's situation Definitely In this case it was grief-related issues I knew that I could give that option If it was somebody with a significant drug history recent usage on medication then it would be mandatory I would require that In this case I knew that I had some flexibility with her at that time But really before Tiffany left my office she was already beginning I could tell she was really considering this I gave her a week She probably called me back in two days and said I'll do this You feel like because it was presented in that way and because by this time I was trying to rank them a little bit better and it wasn't as rocky as it had been at the beginning that helped you I think before that gave you some power to make that determination and that may have actually persuaded you to go forward with it Probably 90% of just giving the option was the reason why I did it besides the assessment was four weeks long for an hour so I did have a chance to interact with Catherine which was very comforting I did like that hour so that had a lot to do with it but 90% was the fact that it was an option I had to say so Like you said, even before I left the office she knew that okay maybe I'll think about it which was more if she had said I'll go I'm not saying a word but it wasn't presented that way Among the many things that are interesting about this conversation that I think is particularly interesting in light of the charter is that the relationship not only that is developing the individual relationships that have been developing between the two of you and now the two of you but the working and professional relationship that you've established and you had established between Catherine and Catherine with Tina I mean it is something in the charter where there's something in the charter that says there's a goal of ensuring compliance through community-based partnerships I mean this seemed like the formation of a partnership and not only a partnership but sort of almost a triangular partnership but even though different things had to happen in individual relationships not an easy triangle to navigate I think I'll talk a little bit to that notion of working with Tina as a partner and what gets shared and what doesn't get shared and how that works with Tiffany so that she's in the loop and that kind of thing Well it's interesting because of course when we talked about she came for an assessment her initial reaction was I'm here and I'm not going to say anything and that can often happen with mandatory counseling where it basically says you're going to go and you're going to work on your personal issues most of us would have a reaction of okay I'm here fix me you're not going to necessarily go through a process where you own it and so one of the things that I always do is really clarify that this is really your time but I'm also really clear that Tina I have a working relationship which means that although the details of a story are not necessarily relevant the kinds of things that you're working on are and so that we need to really share that and be really clear that the client in this case Tiffany knew ahead of time that when she talked that I also had a relationship with Tina and at that point we talked a couple times a week I would say not just about Tiffany of course but about a bunch of different clients I think that that notion mentioned this notion of owning the process for the client to own the process but that requires some knowledge on your part about the process and about how treatment works it rings a bell with me because you and I had talked before about it's really important for the officers to understand how the therapy process works and how the treatment process works in order for there to be an effective partnership it was beneficial it was beneficial for me because I wouldn't tell Tina a thing even though we had come a little bit farther than we had in the beginning I didn't trust the system per se that's what she represented to me I began to trust this person here although I knew when she was very clear from the onset that information would be told to Tina how I manipulated in my own mind I don't care I'm not telling her you can tell her whatever you want to but I'm not telling her a thing so I knew it was going to Tina but it wasn't going to come from me but I trusted this person it's interesting because Catherine then you could make that determination about what gets shared not to say that you are going to be deceptive or something but you've got a trust relationship that's potential to the successful to the success of the supervision potentially and to helping the client turn her life around and make good choices but still you need to work in partnership with the officer and you as the officer need to have that understanding of the therapy process and that trust relationship and in fact that that trust may not yet exist and it may never exist between the two of you because of what you represent and I think that that's again what makes this partnership so important but also so difficult I think to achieve in terms of a successful partnership and working successfully with an individual any reactions to the importance of knowing that process or what kinds of information gets shared or partnering with a treatment provider Catherine and her agency we worked very well together probation and her agency Catherine's familiar with the criminal justice system she knew what was important to share with us and what I really didn't need to know but we talked regularly there was always honesty between us there was we wanted to be very clear about the expectations in Tiffany's case because on the other hand we don't want Tiffany manipulating one of us and we would share information free flowing back and forth so that if she didn't appear for a session I would know or if I found out something about Tiffany I would call Catherine and vice versa and you knew that this kind of communication was occurring well I did however the first time I was late Tina knew I didn't know she was going to know she was going to find out I didn't mean to I was just coming out late from work but she was like well I heard you were late and I'm like I've made an impression on you they talk more than about the case I guess they better not be late the next time it's interesting and helpful to know alright let's move on you completed the treatment with Catherine for the first time in May 1995 but it wasn't until November of 1995 that you told Tina about the relationship that you were having with this other person who was under federal supervision and that that relationship had become violent and that that relationship had actually been going on since February 1995 so why did you call Tina I mean this was somebody that you have said that you didn't trust but when you in this crisis you called Tina why did you do that well to understand that point I think maybe you have to understand a little bit about why the relationship even began Tina while I was incarcerated Tina I had spoke with her a couple of times and I told her that I was trying to or I would like to come out and do some kind of you know public speaking to children you know about what not to do to come to prison or what not so she provided me with a lot of information that she knew but it didn't work out they just weren't ready to do that with a felon so I figured you know since I was doing so well up to this point and had been for almost a year I think it was about a year I could help another person who had just came home who did not know how to get a job you know whatever so that's how that relationship began period just as a friendship and then it took a turn and the reason why I called Tina at that point was because I pretty much figured that I couldn't handle it anymore even though I thought I could and I thought I was doing a good thing however it didn't turn out that way but why not I mean you had a family that was very supportive but you called your probation officer the person that you said that at the very beginning of the relationship of the supervision I knew at that point that I needed not just understanding I needed I needed the tank I needed her to remove me from this my mom couldn't remove me apparently my actions or even me trying to get out of this relationship was not working I needed someone with some authority that would have my best interest in mind even though my feelings hadn't changed a whole bunch I knew that she would do that and that's what she did that was helpful she reacted just like Tina always reacts cool, calm that's what you were looking for I needed that that showed me that okay it's going to be handled I'm not really happy with you and that for me felt bad to disappoint her because we had been doing so well we had been doing so well it was a collaborative thing so I felt kind of bad but I mean I don't want to hear from anybody else that notion of disappointing her feeling like you didn't want to let her down I think is a really important observation because think about where you started and then what had developed over a period of several months you had gone through a lot already and you weren't now wanting to let her down or disappoint her how did you react to that what was your reaction when you found out about this surprise the day that she contacted me actually I was out doing home visits I was out my secretary called me I immediately called Tiffany and we were on the phone 45 minutes to an hour and she laid everything out I was very surprised because like I mentioned all the strengths in Tiffany's background did you feel that down did I I was disappointed with her choices I know that she wanted to help others I had given her several options nothing worked out but I certainly didn't want her to make the decisions that she made I mean she violated several conditions so I was disappointed about that but you know on the other hand I appreciated that she came to me she contacted me so that was a step in the right direction what was your reaction when you found out about this she didn't know at that point because she was no longer in council that's right she had completed in 95 in may of 95 what did you do well on the phone when I talked to Tiffany this violent episode ended just shortly before so I mean she immediately called so this was something that had immediately occurred right before you called I escaped and I went to the first bubble so this was something had to be done immediately and you took you gave that tell us what you did well I mean hearing everything that happened I told her to get medical treatment and then to contact the police and file charges and then to come in the following morning to meet with me and then sort of longer term what did you do well I clamped her on her in several ways she made some poor decisions I increased contact with her I don't know if I increased her office visits but I know that I was at I increased her office visits I then knew how lenient she was well in fact that's actually a good point I doubt how she could be even worse than I thought she was already I thought she was really on me she was really on me 8 in the morning at my house I mean just ridiculous things I'm like look but not so ridiculous in your book I increased her office visits I was at her house much more regularly I don't always go through the entire house every time I started more frequently saying let's walk through the house I stopped by her job pretty regularly and I also required her to get back into counseling to discuss some of the decisions that she made and this relationship and disengaging from it the relationship continued and how did that play into the continuing of the supervision you had stepped up a lot of what you were doing what happened the relationship continued I found out in several different ways I was always confronting Tiffany and you were doing a lot of field work at the time? I was I definitely was but she got re-involved in counseling and when she continued this relationship and wasn't following instructions I ended up well I talked to Tiffany and she explained that I was requesting a modification to go to the halfway house that making that I didn't know at the time I didn't I don't even know where my head was I was just like whatever why were you unable to disengage from your relationship do you think I think that I think that's where Catherine shed some light when I finally when I finally got back in tune with her it was the person it was my goal and what I was trying to do I don't know it was the goal that I had I was so focused on it wasn't the person it could have been any person attached to what I was trying to do I needed to do that I needed to show someone how I did it I don't know any reactions to that what do you think? I think that for many people before we take care of ourselves it was going to be focused for me for what it was and sadly this became really violent and became a situation that led to her not being with her children and was incredibly incredibly sad but it allowed Tiffany to really rethink okay well what do I need to do to take care of myself short term grief work is really important but that's the tip of the iceberg and so we spent a year looking at sometimes abandonment issues but very seriously looking at abandonment issues and grief issues parenting and getting deeply into you know deeply into just all the things that nobody wants to look at and that it's not really safe to look at when you're in prison I mean that's the other part of that is that you can't look at that in an effective way you need to but you can't look at that in an effective way so you're bothering her up so the consequences of all this led to taking a lot of time to really take good care of herself so you go back to the halfway house one thing leads to another and ultimately you end up recommending that the supervisor be revoked and there's a revocation hearing and after the hearing the judge recommends that Tiffany be continued on supervision but with electronic monitoring and foam confinement with electronic monitoring Tiffany first I'm wondering your probation officers basically recommending that you be sent back to prison what was your reaction to that do you remember are you happy about it no I felt like with this certain situation which was an altercation with me and a staff member I felt like I felt like they didn't betray me because I'm looking across the courtroom and she's over there why are you over there you don't believe me so again you're back to this adversarial thing after having developed a trust relationship exactly at the beginning you had not had a trust relationship so you had come a long way and then it was like back at almost square one quickly but the outcome was in my favor so that made me feel good and I kind of was like now stay over there with him you didn't believe me it was very emotional really for me to see her over over there I guess back over there Tina reactions to that and sort of how it affected your approach to supervision how you felt about your recommendation not being taken up by the court and your reaction to Tiffany's reaction and how she felt about you again well she was unsuccessfully terminated from the albus house and you know I had yes but my initial recommendation was a modification for the halfway house and I explained to Tiffany that she needed to do well comply with the conditions and get through this program and if she did we continue on with supervision if she did not she would be returned to court for revocation hearing so I always lay out my expectations very clearly so that everyone understands them within less than a week she was unsuccessfully terminated and like I told her if she didn't complete she would go back to court so in the violation report everything's laid out I explained to Tiffany and it took a while until the revocation hearing took place and you know she was still coming into the office and I was continuing to work with her like I do everyone else I had actually referred her to a couple different things that I knew she would be interested in continued to work with her did you feel her sort of this new sense of anger and her sense of resistance palpable or business as usual you know I felt like I mean you know there's a revocation hearing hanging out there but I felt that we got along I mean in speaking with her and speaking with her attorney I referred her like we had an employment open house I referred her to that I referred her to a couple of juvenile agencies that she could possibly do public speaking she would always get back with me and thank me or this was helpful I interviewed at the place she referred me to it was an hour long things went well I mean she seemed appreciative maybe she wasn't but but you know we went back to court and you know I laid everything out in the report we went back to court the court found that she was in violation of all the conditions that were outlined with the exception of the threat the judge wasn't convinced that she exhibited menacing behavior and that was fine with me I mean when she was terminated I had interviewed several of the staff members at the halfway house I wasn't quite sure where what actually transpired I was completely okay with the judge's okay but let's say for the sake of argument that it had not been that way and that there had even thinking about another case that there was a situation in which there was a clear problem but that for whatever reason the court did not think that revocation was appropriate even though you did does that affect what you do no it does does that affect your relationship with the offender does that affect your attitude toward the supervision I mean you're an experienced officer you know does it should it get you angry does it make you angry no I mean I've been doing the job for a long time so it didn't make me angry it would change supervision you know her conditions were modified to include electronic monitoring I made those appropriate changes after court I asked Tiffany to come up I sat down and I said you know what you received a gift from the court today the judge outlined the expectations you need to take advantage of this you need to do everything right because the judge made it very clear if you don't follow through you'll be back before the court so I emphasized to her that she needed to do what was expected Catherine moving ahead now I mean now we know that Tiffany's re-entered supervision by this time re-entered treatment by this time compare the second time through treatment with the first time and we've talked a bit about it already because you referred to the depth that you were able to go into the second time as opposed to the first time but maybe just sort of in terms of attitudinal differences or other observations and I'll say this tentatively Tiffany because of course you're going to know better than I do at any time I think that there's a difference between the first date and the 12th and if you think of it like that we were getting to know one another during the assessment process and permission to talk and creating a safe space and all the things that you need to do to start that process I would say it was a really good beginning I think that you addressed some pretty difficult stuff really difficult stuff but that the second time it was like man Catherine I messed up that's what I did now Tina's really pissed I was kind of like that I'm back but you also I think you saw it as an opportunity alright now I really have to get into this and then you could I mean I think if you can honestly believe that I really was not trying to mess up the first time that really was not my intention there's much stuff as Tina put me through and I felt like I did it I was really that was not my intent to begin with I really thought I was doing a good thing just at my thought process at the time was not focused did you observe differences the sort of second time through as opposed to the first time through as this part of the supervision in counseling Tiffany I don't think held back she opened up she shared honestly you dug in the dirt made a difference you think Tina? I do think it made a difference in a long way at the beginning of the program I mentioned that you were working at Ohio State women's reformatory in the therapeutic community but I wanted to give you an opportunity to talk about some of the other things that you're proud of that you've accomplished okay and let me I just wanted to add in a therapeutic community like Tina and Catherine were saying in a prison setting you don't have that opportunity to share and all you do is you have to put up this front and there's nowhere to share feelings but in a therapeutic community in tapestry that is exactly what's given an opportunity for the women to do that which is where I work which would have been so helpful for me it would have been such I wouldn't have had all that had I went through that program can I ask you now that you work in that kind of a program has it helped you sort of find out things about yourself and even how Tina must have been feeling because now I have clients and you know when they don't do well right how my view when they walk in but I know that because I've already walked that I've already walked that path so it's very good for me to work there and I think the women appreciate that talk about some of the other stuff that you've done since the end of the supervision the supervision ended in 97 that was a good year for me and that same year I also gained the national boxing championship belt heavyweight and then the next year the following year I was the IFBA heavyweight world champion first female boxer so that was really good that was a big highlight for me and my children as well I have to say Chelsea and Stevie they'll kill me I mean I'm just sort of struck by the way that the supervision what you had experienced before you even encountered the supervision what you encountered during the supervision and how you dealt with it and how these two people worked together and with you together in different ways in different roles to be able to get to where you're going but it also reminds me that you had said one time in a conversation it's important for officers to keep in mind that if the individual doesn't want to change you can do everything right and I wanted to briefly touch on this because the two of you had a great partnership yet still things began to spin out of control back when before the conditions got modified and there was the relationship and that kind of thing so you could even have the best working relationship professionally and things can still get by you know and ultimately it's up to the individual to make the changes necessary and to decide that they want a different was there a point but was there a point where you sort of had an aha moment or where you were like I need to change the way things are going you remember that? I was stabbed several times during that relationship it's not working I need to focus on Tiffany and get back to Tiffany because the foundation I strongly believe the foundation is laid in the home as a child I knew what the right thing was to do I just fell off path with all the grief in my life and I just had to remember what I knew was right to begin with and just get back on that which was the support system that Tina talked about earlier with my family my mom is very strong and supports it still to this day I talked to her yesterday and I just had to get back on track and with Tina's sternness and Catherine's kind of like the bad guy good guy type thing if I can say that that's pretty much how I felt and with both of those it was okay for me to feel over here and it wasn't okay for me to mess up over here because I knew better I knew what I was supposed to do anyway and I didn't have to call Tina she would have never found out that because it wasn't visible at that time but I felt at that time I felt like I could and that was a big thing for me because I didn't trust people a lot Any final thoughts about Tiffany's situation or the work in general? Um you know we had a lot of rough spots but it took a lot of work and effort on Tiffany's part and she finally I mean it really got to the point where she was back against the wall couldn't get her out of the relationship put her in a structure and safe environment but I really think she started to change and take advantage of everything at that point and she's come a long way a long way thoughts? Well I have to say I just think it's so exciting seeing you how beautiful you are Thank you Beautiful at the beginning but just how far you've gone the growth work I mean it's amazing I don't see it like that sometimes but they remind me That's cool I'm glad you had an opportunity to come and be here and put us on this Thank you all very much Tina Anchor and Tiffany Logan Katherine Tercer, thanks for joining us today Um You've really helped us understand officers responsibilities under the charter I think a lot better and given it some meaning Um Thank you for watching We'll see you next time