 Everybody that we're expecting government calls me to order is 702 Let the schedule be the town of Berlin development you board We have two applications before tonight application of Berlin mall and downstreet community development for a major sale plan review this is review for The restaurant in a drive-through and a 30-year that will be you will be family colleague And we also have the application by Berlin mall for a major subdivision What I'm gonna do is is Before I swear people in I don't want to see who could you tell me who all is here accomplish Nicola you want to introduce yourself? Yep, I'm Nicola Anderson and the director of real estate development for downstreet housing and community development So I'm here with Matt is part of the housing part of the project Welcome Nicola John Davidson. You want to say who you are? You're muted John Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe. Hi Joe Davidson. I'm an architect with in our elements architects for the architect for the Starbucks building Thank You Joe Jason Hi, Jason Azar the chief operating officer of Heidenberg properties here at the Berlin mall the applicant properties is the developer manager On behalf of Berlin mall. Thank you Jason. Can Simon? Yeah, I can Simon vice president of real estate Heidenberg properties and I'm with Jason Kevin's phone Yeah, Kevin warden engineering ventures civil engineer working with downstreet and ever north Michael rushman Yes, so I'm a consultant Lane strategies. I'm a consultant with them all Carla Dewey's oh yes Or be member Pauli McBurkery BRB member Christy Flynn recording secretary Sandra Silla ever Ever north employee listening into the conversation. I am not present Thank You Sandra. I think that's everybody who is everybody You can you introduce who's in the room? Yeah, we will I Have someone joining out Carl. Well, maybe Carl Marsha. So he's with our office Yeah, yeah, I'm Robert Wernick. I'm a chair of the board My right is to an elson who's a board member Tom bodowski town of Berlin David Roy, we in Lantia architects working with ever north and downstream not more ever north Chuck store. Oh attorney for a brilliant wall Paul a larry a larry bark civil associates the civil engineer for the Berlin mall folks Sean Cunningham a larry Burke civil associates Okay, thank you all well, let's start here by swearing in all those who tend to give testimony before this board tonight If you tend to give testimony, please raise your right hand You swear to tell the truth about the truth before this board tonight. I do. Thank you So Take the lead on this I will okay Okay, we don't have any extra parties. Oh, yeah, I'm up here to share I think everybody on this call is either with the applicant or with the town of Berlin is that correct? Okay, so folks Looking on the zoom meeting I have a board I'm going to use for presentation But Sean is going to have the same drawing up and he's currently sharing that on your screen So you should be able to see the same thing that we're presenting to the board here live All right, so thank you for the opportunity to come we're excited to Move this project along. I'm going to give a quick overview I think Matt might have a few words to say and then we'll get into a little bit more of the details Yep So we're basically here for two site plan approvals for a site plan approval for Fox Run Which is a 30 unit affordable housing building Fox Run also requires conditionally used approval from the board Because it's more than 16 units Growing regulations say anything more than 16 units multifamily requires conditionally use We're also here for a site plan approval for the proposed Starbucks Starbucks also requires a conditionally used approval from the board because it has a drive-in feature So although a restaurant's an allowed use when we add the drive-in it becomes a conditional use Intertwine with the two site plans is the approval of the street network that we're talking about we'll get into that a little bit more More detail so my intention tonight is to talk about the street network And the two site plan applications all at the same time I'm going to talk about how those three elements meet Your zoning requirements the district requirements section 210 Then we'll talk about how it meets the conditionally used criteria Then we'll talk about how it meets the site plan criteria After that we're going to let the two art architects do their thing David Roy is going to talk about the Fox Run building and then Joe Davidson is going to talk about the Starbucks building all right, so Matt you want to give a quick little intro go right ahead then I'll jump back great Yeah, so thanks everyone again Nicola Anderson with downstreet We're really excited to be here. We've been working on this project with ever north Really since 2018 I think people are probably a little bit familiar with the project as we've been coming up through Conversations with the new town center, but we're here presenting for 30 units of multi-family mixed you mixed affordability Housing in Berlin. We're really excited for this to be downstreet's first project in Berlin and Excited to be here today to answer any questions Just quickly at the overall plan. I'm sure everyone's fairly familiar. We have route 62 at the bottom We have fish road at the top central my medical center the existing mall centered around Walmart Coals building and shaded in brown out of two new buildings that we're proposing Starbucks is a smaller building and the Fox one building is the larger building right across from Deucevich's project Which is a nearing completions just not place. I believe is what Is what they call it the entrance way off of 62 is the same place where it is now The street network that we were proposing Matches very closely the street network that's shown on your account plan and we'll get into that A little bit more so Sean I'm on sheet four if you want to Bring the folks in the audience up to speed so sheet four is the overall grading and plan for the project that it shows in greater detail the two buildings The existing road comes in off route 62 and then swings on this plan to the right And then connects back in and runs to the mall. Obviously this plan anticipates building the new road for the town center plan On a portion of the school district property and then back onto the Berlin mall associates property So as we look at the plan Starbucks is here. It's about 2400 square feet. It has a drive-through element That will hold about 18 or 19 cars Fox Run building is a little over 10,000 square feet in footprints. The three-story building Has a 30 car parking lot behind it in 30 units total Sanitary sewer is being extended from the existing mall. You'll come up to the street. It's actually shown in red on this plan There's a sanitary line that comes up and serves Fox Run Serves the new Starbucks and it's being extended all the way over to the school district property To serve any future use that happens on that piece Similarly with the water line, there's an eight inch up the water line that's being extended from Berlin It'll serve Fox Run. It'll serve The new Starbucks and it's getting extended all the way out and stubbed out Again to serve future development as anticipated on the town plan Stormwater we have two stormwater features going in. They're both gravel wetlands We have a small stormwater feature that's just to the side of the Fox Run building This stormwater facility will treat the runoff from Fox Run's parking lot and from the Fox Run building So that'll be collected be treated by the gravel wetland Then we'll go back into a new storm drain line And we'll discharge back into the wetland with existing discharge for the chestnut place And for a portion of the wall wallmark building We have a new larger gravel wetland That's being constructed on A portion of the school district property and a portion of the Berlin mall property Now that storm on a pond will treat The Berlin mall access road as far as the high point which is roughly in here It will treat all of Starbucks parking lot drive-thru building It will serve the new through street. That's adjacent to the Fox Run housing It's also been sized to take Future impervious area from this center spot which currently is being developed and it's been sized To take impervious area from the future development on the school district property We looked at the town plan. We looked at what you know, your initial plan showed For impervious area features added up that acreage And size this detention pond Actually the tension ponds grab a wetland feature to accommodate that. So the idea is is when we come back For future development either on this parcel or on the school district parcel We'll have our storm water permit in place. We'll have water stubbed out. We'll have sewer stubbed out We should also have a power stubbed out. It's not shown on the plan. So we're kind of looking forward Thinking that this is just the first piece of the puzzle We got more buildings coming. I know there'll be folks interested in this parcel And we certainly expect that the school district parcel, whether it's a new town building or something else that Hopefully that will come along in the near future I'll just note that the two storm water features because of the size of the mall property and that we have more than 10 acres It's impervious area. It's actually sized for the 100-year storm So they're quite a bit bigger than what we would normally see But that has to do because of the the total impervious area when we look out then I have to get what it is It's 20 or 30 acres. Do you remember Sean? It's a big number anyway, so So we're you know, we're excited to see everything go. We think we've got most of the pieces of the puzzle When we talk about the road network The new town plan the zoning is specific about what the road has to look like they want on street parking along There's a 50 foot spacing on street lights There's sidewalk requirements. We think that we pretty much covered all those facets the the main Berlin mall road going in Has parallel parking on either side of beginning beginning here And going all the way down to the end along the chestnut place We only have parking on one side Because chestnut place has a sidewalk that they just put in a new curb And it has that large parking lot in front So it didn't seem practical to put On street parking on that side of the project similarly along the detention pond area because Because the elevation of the detention pond is actually retaining wall to make that Great difference from the road down to the detention pond. So we're currently not showing Any parking along that side now your zoning regulations do show Some streets that only have parking on one side and not on both As we go by The type b road that's by the starbucks. You'll see that along that road We have straight in or 90 degree parking And then on the road that's just to the side of the box run again. We go back to Parallel parking spots on both sides of the street Typically the peril spot the peril width is nine feet. You require a minimum of eight Your zoning regulations ask for typical traveling of 10 or 11 feet We've actually designed it for 12 It's it's our experience particularly with the straight end parking that You need that 24 feet if by any rest who drive a pickup truck or something big you You only got 20 feet it you just can't get out and clear the guy next to you without doing it in a couple moves. So We differ a little bit. We're a little wider than what your regulations call for We think it's a little bit better. We think Looking at the berlin mall road, that's the same. We have a 12 foot travel width instead of 11 feet. We We're a little more comfortable with the 12. Obviously if this board came back and said no, it's gotta be 11 We'd go with 11, but we would encourage you to Maybe think about that a little wider width and especially considering the amount of traffic and the type of traffic that might be coming in Along that road. So we have the street trees every 50 feet. We have the street lights Every 50 feet the 12 foot poles and led light. There's a lighting plan in your package that shows the type of picture in the spacing I'm going to put a plug in for the lighting and that Your regulations require the poles to be spaced 50 feet on center both sides of the road That's a lot of poles and if you look at the lighting plan, you'll see this seems to be light poles everywhere It takes 62 poles to do The berlin mall access road and the new road with your regulations, right? A pole with the base and with the conduit and the fixture Roughly about three thousand dollars per pole. So we're approaching two hundred thousand dollars and just lighting for this and 50 every 50 feet both sides of the road. Man, that is a lot Of lights that someone's got to maintain. Someone's got to pay the power bill on You know, etc, etc. So I'd encourage you if you drive around other towns to kind of look at that spacing and You know in my view, I'd like it a lot better I don't mind the 50 feet, but I'd like to stagger in other words go 100 feet Spacing on each side of the road and then go, you know, go a pole and 50 feet on this side and 50 and go back and forth I think Again, it's just my opinion, but at night with those 60 some poles all lit up Yeah, it's gonna be a bright spot in the sky. You know, I have any trouble, you know, seeing where it is So your regulations require the 50 so you'd have to Provide us with a waiver or provide us with a way to drop back, but I would uh I would urge you to consider that not only because of the cost of the developer But man, that's a lot of poles. We think about every 50 feet Both sides of the road. That's a lot of poles. All right, that's enough on my Lecture Before you get off the lecture Paul Is your experience 100 feet on centers and staggered? Is that what other you see in other municipalities or 50 feet on both sides is not unusual All right, I have seen it before the village of Essex Junction, for instance Has poles every 50 feet both sides and when you when you go down that night and you look, you know The first thing to me is like wow, I got way too many poles You know just a lot more light than what I think you need. I I think some of it depends you know if we were If we were lakeside and it was a board rock and we knew there's gonna be all sorts of people and a real lot of activity late at night Is that an appropriate spacing for poles? Probably yes, but For here, I know we're all hoping we'll get a lot of pedestrian activity, but It just seems like it's a little overkill Me for that number of lights on on this project now if we were talking about one of the The future streets down in front of the mall No argument whatsoever. That's the place we are going to see a lot of foot traffic different times at night and You know probably definitely worthwhile to have more light there So just for everybody's edification here The the planning commission is in the process of Reviewing their zoning regulations, particularly with the new pound center designation They they will They would welcome testimony to this end And I would I would suggest that you you provide testimony to the planning commission with respect to the to the lighting We can certainly do that. Yeah, and uh It's we hope to wrap this process up in about 45 days ish So So the the timing is right I could also mr. Chair if you still allow me to continue We have The planning commission has met with the regulators with respect to the parking And I believe we have an agreement that parking would be A require on-street park required only on that section of a road which would front of building So So that's not in stone yet, but that's Heading down this 45 day, you know So I think that can Significantly Not adversely but Help help this project. All right. I know that was was a concern And the final piece I would say mr. Chair is that Part of the discussion That was being had or currently being had is Some green storm water If if there's no parking, maybe you could do green storm water in that in that So i'm just putting that out as well that the the regulators are very keen on applications Having green storm water Assets Well, we're We're pretty happy to have a grab of wetlands actually. I mean, I know The plaintiffs might not consider that to be green, but but we we do on our end Much better what we should do mr. Chair Random fact of the day does anybody know what the streetlight spacing is and like main street in berry city or No, but we we could certainly find that out What it is sure Yeah, and to give you a comparison so today the staggering makes sort of the sense Yeah, I guess I guess the question I may have is what do you have for the average woman on the street now? Sean, I could read about a back park. Yes. Yeah I didn't see any average numbers. Oh, yeah, and I didn't provide the uh, we can get that for you calculations I can get it for you. Yes. I guess without knowing the number How do you feel about the intensity that you've got in terms of lumens right now? Uh, fairly low It's it's not going to be I mean at least it gets kind of an even spread It looks like it's single digits one two. Yeah, one to two is yeah, what that's I guess That's not super bright What that's not no, that's not super bright. Uh, if you if you went to a Largest spacing I'd say a side but stagger them You probably have to go with larger lights to get the same lumens. Yeah, we could easily do that Which it would be cheaper than having more poles, but oh, yeah Yeah, and it'd be a little I mean the LEDs don't use a lot of juice but but certainly even if we went to We changed the spacing to every other even if we had to go to our 15 percent brighter light We would still save quite a bit on on the total energy I didn't think your lumens from what I could see, you know On it's actually a drawing. I didn't see why you're Yeah, it looks like we're running on one and a half, you know, typically in the street and You know, normally what I think about like if you're in a parking lot You need you need if you drop your keys You need three or four tenths of a lumen In order to be able to see where you dropped them and pick them up You know to give you an idea of what that is. But for my as you know, it typically has very low lighting levels compared to most of the states So just a couple things before I move on to the regulations In terms of sidewalks So we are performing an eight foot wide sidewalk along the Berlin access road And it comes down and it runs All the way in to walmart Then on the opposite side of the street, which would be eventually the school district, you know, maybe the town Building side, we have another eight foot walk that comes down. It crosses the street here And we drop to a five foot wide walk along this side one is We don't have any development over there and we have the retaining wall We're a little we'll squeeze for space plus The new walk that just went in front of check nut chest nut place is also a five foot walk So we end up with a five foot walk all the way along this side until we get to the intersection And then we jump back up to eight The walks on the interior where we go by starbucks and fox run those are both five foot wide sidewalks On both sides of the street Why don't you go with an eight foot on the mall road? We went with an eight footer because the Our interpretation of the town plan was that they were looking for a multi-use path and The town plan shows that multi-use path You know kind of running along the back And along the back has a lot of wetland issues And and we've had some meetings with the wetland folks Because we have a little wetland impact on the corner We're going to need a conditionally used determination from the state right there on the corner and uh Let's just say the state was Way less than receptive To the idea of any path that ran along The wetlands in the back so so what? Instead of getting into a an argument back and forth through state We thought short term what we should do is think about Constructing that eight foot multi-use path along the road so at least Eight foot multi-use path isn't much more expensive for us than doing a five foot wide path at this point time And it at least gets that element in place In terms of you know, connection connectivity And all those good things that we look for uh in this town center plan So that's why we chose to go to an eight instead of a five now tom tom had a comment about potentially Continuing the the peril spaces all the way down to walmart. We looked at that and that's something we're certainly willing to do Particularly as we think there's some development potential for this plot down here at the corner So it'd be good to have that additional parking along it And the last topic before I talk about the regulations is You know the idea of having some sort of entrance feature, you know Something iconic a sign a statue a phone. I don't know. I'm not a creative guy And shouldn't be something that you tasked me but our thought is is that there's ample room You know, right where we come in on the starboard slot on this corner Obviously, there's ample room, you know on the other side when you come in You know, you've got to stay out of the town right away with it We're certainly willing to work with the town on maybe what that feature should look like But we don't know that we should be the one, you know to lead that I think we're looking for more input from the town Maybe from the planning commission. I mean what? It's your town center. It's your plan You know, what are you thinking about? Um, you know, we can provide power. We can provide an easement We can certainly participate and bringing that forward, but we're really looking for For some more impact for the town and the town to kind of take the lead on that And and we might have a little bit better feel to what that should look like once we we know a little bit more About what is going to be developed on the school district property and what's going to be developed on this lot And further on I mean our our thoughts on that might change in a few years depending on what comes so Very willing to work very willing to give you an easement On our property, obviously you wouldn't need an easement from us on your property But we think that's a discussion that the town should lead And tell us where they'd like to go on that portion of it Any questions before I jump into the rigs so your uh I can't recall your subdivision drawings. Did it did a reference an easement to that end? No, it does not But we would gladly show a potential easement there, you know, wherever we think is the uh, the best spot Well, let me stop here. Just Tom Germany for those No, I but I just again I want to reiterate these are brand new regulations for the town of Berlin everybody in this room It's brand new for us Uh, if if we See things that could be tweaked that improves the regulations Now's the time to bring that to the table, right? Just that's last. I want to leave it with you guys I'm going to ask the board members if they have any questions about the general nature of this project What's been discussed so far No, no I got that I heard from both polyad and Did you have anything else? Okay, I I I don't either this that's good. Um, okay I'll go ahead and go through the details here, you know, and it is a new center regulations You know, we've been trying to work our way through them too. Um, you know in general, we're pretty happy with what we have here, you know, we Besides my whining about the lights You know in the spacing, you know the the street network and everything else it lays out pretty good You know the sidewalks sidewalks work pretty good You know, we think that this could be a really great asset for the town Coming forward and we're pretty happy to be working with you It's come a long way through sketch plan to tilt today Yeah, and we got we you know, obviously we have the the issue with the school district and in some of those pieces And we know and that's not something that we're going to solve here tonight And so we're not even not even planning on talking about that today the truth So all right, I'm gonna I'm gonna quickly go through the regulations and just hit some of the major points on how we comply So when we look at the base zoning district, um, as you know, we're in the town center of the tc district multifamily dwelling for fox one is an allowed use in here as is a restaurant for the starbucks use and I should note again that That section says that if you have more than 16 Housing years you require to get a conditional use permit which we talked about and that if you have a use that has a drive in Which starbucks certainly does that also requires a conditional use There's no maximum residential residential density in the district So there's no calculations that we have to look at as to you know, whether we have enough land for the number of units We have etc etc. Obviously the The zoning district map has changed a little bit, you know the key about the number of streets But we are proposing both streets to be a type b streets There's the form-based standards as part of that section 210 So if I look at the b street portion of it so The first thing the regulations have is what's called a a btl or bill to line All right, so the bill to line is from the curve or the edge of the travel way back So for b type street the bill to line is 40 feet So that 40 foot line is shown It runs kind of through the middle of the starbucks building And it's just into the fox run building. So the fox run building Is set 39 feet back From the edge of the right away. So we're 40 feet back. So we're The bill to line is 40 feet back. The building is set 39 feet back So we're one foot inside the bill to line So we comply with the bill to line for the fox run building and the starbucks building Is back 28 and a half feet. So we comply with the 40 foot minimum btl or building setback So we look at the parking setback. It's uh, it's 10 feet from either the sidelines or the rear and uh We actually don't have any parking for starbucks. All the parking is in the public road It's all public spaces Fox one has a 30 space parking lot behind it and that meets the 10 foot minimum setback From the the side setback and the rear setback line a minimum lot width was 75 feet Both lots comply with that Then we have the primary street facade. So The building the building and or wall has to occupy a minimum Of 50 feet of that front for side. So with the starbucks 50 50 50 percent side 50 percent And so with the starbucks building we we meet that by Extending the building with the use of a decorative wall six foot tall wall on either end and that's allowable the way we need the rigs and so that puts The percentage along the front edge of the starbucks building at 51 percent And the existing box run building Along the front is 52 percent. Obviously we can we can adjust box run by adjusting where the property line is But we meet it as as shown Minimum lot size is 15,000 square feet The lot that starbucks is on is about 44,000 square feet The lot that box runner is on is 96,000 square feet. So when we look at your B street Standards we believe that we meet all of standards building height minimum building height of One and a half stories or 25 feet Starbucks does meet the 25 foot requirement fox one easily meets it David it's probably I would just what about 35 feet depending on where you measure it from just about 34 feet And you got to keep in mind too. We're elevated above the road On quite a distance as you come off the road it goes up an embankment To get to that first level, but just so you understand that. Yeah, so three-story building on uh four The starbucks finally meets it by basically having a facade that extends up. That's correct There's no building behind that facade. There's no building behind it Right when I required to have a second story, we just required to meet that 25 foot minimum building height Was there thought given to the second story or just No, I don't believe so So i'm going to skip, you know, we have h streets and p streets and i'm just going to talk a little bit about the section 2101 which is a e which is the street standards and So your standards require that we We have a right away For all the streets. So whether we're parallel on street parking or angled on street parking requires a Minimum of a 60 foot right away. So so we are showing a 60 foot right away that follows the new access road in All the way to the walmart property and then we have a 60 foot right away that follows the road that Serves starbucks and goes on alongside The fox fun housing now by definition Those right aways create lots all right, so part of this the second part is a subdivision approval and and The establishment of the right aways and the streets Create lots. So this right away creates a lot on the inside which i think we've called outlet Outlaw f Yep, and then we have another lot that's created here in the end between the walmart property and the fox fun housing And we call that outlaw G so we have a two new outlots that are created up Starbucks is on outlaw a fox one is on outlaw c The chestnut place was on outlaw b I think d is a small outlaw right across from the burlin mall and e i believe was coals If i if i can keep on my alphabet And then right and this is undevelopable lot. So we we think we have another good lot here We certainly have an excellent lot here f Then obviously we have the school district property which uh, Obviously has a lot of development potential on its own so The street standards talk about west of the street How wide your parking should be and uh, we believe that we comply with all of those street standards in section 20 2101 With the exception of the width that we're talking about a 12 foot lane Instead of our 11 foot lane question You said 60 foot right away. I think the drawing shows 65. Am I correct? It's 60 to 65 is what so in some places I think along here because of the width of the sidewalk and that multi-use path and to get the five foot green belt You're looking at I think we did 65 Well, you show 65 on the interior roads for instance. That's all 65. That could well be yes You know, we're just kind of working from the middle out by the time we get everything. So yes Just just you said 60. Oh, you're looking at the plat. So if it says 65 on the plat then it is 65 I think it's a minimum of 60 in your in your regulations Thank you for correcting me on that. So, uh, the last section Of 210 is about architectural standards. I'll let the architects talk about that. I'm gonna before kick it to them though I'm gonna just quickly talk about a little bit more of the standards to conditional use standards All right, so we're talking about both box run and starbucks require conditional use approval. So if I look at chapter 330 conditional use standards The first section talks about capacity. Would you address the site plan standards first? Sure so site plan standards Chapter 320 So the first thing we get to in the site plan standards are parking and loading areas All right now parking is a little A little squirrely looking at your site plan standards with the town plan because of the amount of on-street parking You know that we have so so typically your your site plan standards look like okay I'm going to put a restaurant in and I gotta have this many spaces and that's how big the parking lot has to be in this case In some cases we have a parking lot and in some cases we're using the on street. So Just looking if we look at fox run your minimum parking for fox one is one parking space per dwelling unit So we have 30 dwelling units And we have 30 parking spaces a dedicated 30 parking space lot, but If you look at the parallel parking spaces along the road to the side and in the front And there's some other spaces here You have roughly another 28 or 30 spaces That are available for those folks to build. So we meet the minimum Kind of hard to count just just how many we actually have it depends on how you want to look at it If we look at starbucks If you look at a restaurant use your regulations require one space for 300 square feet Starbucks is roughly 24 little under 2,400 square feet. So that would call for eight spaces All right, if we looked at that now Because we have on street parking in front of starbucks. We don't have You know a particular parking lot. We have a total of 18 spaces Along this street in front of starbucks. So There's street spaces your minimum apartment is eight. We have 18 Typically you allow a maximum of two times the minimum But we really can't reduce because I don't think you want us to reduce on street parking. So that's why I'm saying it's a little It's a little weird, but I think we're pretty good I think we have plenty of parking and I think in general when you meld the two regulations together, we meet the intent Our loading areas, we don't really have much for loading Most of all starbucks deliver your small trucks, you know ups, you know, we don't have tractor trailers coming to supply You know starbucks. So so Basically that they could either You know use the drive-through lanes that just pull in they could actually park and run stuff in so this You know, we don't need a dedicated You know loading. We don't have you know a big food service truck, you know Pulling up there a couple times a week and unloading We haven't done any shared or off-site parking calculations Again, all those street spaces are essentially, you know shared spaces Paul, would you start to say Any members of the board have questions as we proceeding here because there's a lot going by here Just just, you know interrupt and raise your hand or Give to give our attention and and we certainly understand that we're coming back at least one more time, you know so our goal today is just Show you what we have get some feedback from you who get specific questions that'd be great And hopefully when we come back that next time is we need to drill down a little deeper on individual items We can do that. Oh, you have a question. Yeah, I have a question about the built-in line for starbucks So which road are you coming off of? So it would be the the road that's directly in front of it where the where the parking spaces are So are you coming? Are you calculating it from the road itself or from the edge of the parking or what? It's the edge of curb In so 40 feet off of the edge of the curb So the edge of the parking edge of the parking. That's correct. Yes. Okay And that would be the same with the fox one building. It's from the edge of the parking. That's where the 40 feet is made it from Paul did you Detail out what the curving is going to be here concrete curving And all the streets all the streets are curved. Yes thank you All right, dimensional stands on parking pretty much dictated by section 210 You know 18 foot wide typical parking spaces a parallel spaces a minimum of 8 feet and we're at 9 So that matches pretty well with what your site plan standards asked for. So I think we're in coordinates there Layout, you know, again, we have a mix of parallel spaces and and I need great perpendicular spaces Which again meets your both site plan and the section 210 requirements Erosion control and drainage We have a full set of erosion control plans. We will apply an erosion tool permit from the state of amont along with storm water permit and Pretty much whatever permits are out there. We're going to need to move this thing forward Snow storage, we don't have specific spaces for snow storage like you know, if we need to The truck some temporarily we will and either store it on the mall site or take it off site. We really Urban areas now we really don't design for specific snow storage area. It just uses up too much valuable space And you know, it's just better to figure if we need to move it, we move it So whether you're a downtown lot failure or any other place that's typically how we handle it now Yes, sir. Mr. Church. Yeah So I guess back to the parking So you're looking to have two handicapped spots on the first for starbucks on the New B street. Yes. Yeah. Okay, and then these two new B streets. Are these going to be town roads or Private roads. All right. They're being built to town standards. They've been built within a right away we We are hopeful that the select board will Take over these roads and own them at some point time in the future I'm that that's really not a discussion for this board. I don't believe but that's our intention is we're building it per year standard It's your new town center We're building the roads how you're asking us to build them and we're certainly hopeful that you will own that Okay Width of the handicapped parking spots are those going to be the same width or I know you've got the Van accessible Striping there, you know between the two spots. Yes spaces and the striping area are both 90 And certainly we're We're certainly flexible to Add more spaces or adjust them as as need be so a little detail like that. We're glad to work out with Wherever I might wish to comment on it. Okay Hold my grinch hat back. I'm more Grumpy about that nowadays Well, it's a big joke in in our office that you know as I get older my my filter doesn't seem to work nearly as well That's what it used to it More inclined to tell you exactly what I think instead of, you know, tap the answer on that issue So, uh, that's why Sean's here in case I got out of control They'll sit me down so Markings and edging, uh, obviously all the spaces will be marked. It's a paved road. We have concrete curbs so they'll be very well Marked as we go through. We're not proposing at this point in time any electrical vehicle charging We don't have well, we have a previously developed site if you want to consider the road But obviously we're rebuilding, you know that that whole road so we really really don't have anything that's previously developed That would count we talked about the parking Access and circulation You know fairly obvious the circulation that we have we have the new berlin mall access road We have the new street that goes by starbucks and by boxwood housing We talked about before we got sidewalks on both sides of the street almost everywhere. So there's lots of pedestrian connectivity One side of the street has the eight foot wide multi-use path that the other street has a five foot wide A concrete sidewalk obviously at all the intersections. We'll have the you know required handicap ramps, you know, etc Etc could you run through? The circulation for these drive-through Yes So as you come in to the Berlin mall road, you take a right onto the D street You come in and then the drive-through is this lane in the back. It's actually split here So that we can get cars will actually double stack here and then merge as they come up to the window So we have enough space to have about 19 cars. So we want We worked quite a bit on this to make this work We wanted to make sure that we didn't have any cars that would back up, you know into the through street So we don't want to have a block of through street So we're back and forth with starbucks. Obviously starbucks has a boat loader experience as to what they need, you know in terms of of stacking distances and They were the ones who actually suggested that we split it and double stack it so that we could be a little more compact in our space So that's the idea that you come through There's actually a couple of kiosks here that you pull up, you know, that has the menu board there You know, you tell it what you want And then you pull up to the window There's actually a few parking spaces here. So for some reason You i'm not a starbucks guy But if you ordered something really exotic and it was going to take a while to get it You know, you could actually pull pull ahead and park in one of the spaces and someone might Might write it off to you Is there has starbucks done any research? I know, you know, like I said, they've got plenty of experience on Especially peak time stacking and everything but with things changing under cove it have they done any New research on that is is that still an appropriate number? The reason I'm bringing this up is is, you know, looking at mcdonald's on very much period road Now they almost back up onto the very much period road. I know kfc does back up into the very much period road at times Dunkin Donuts does back up onto the very much period road at times and That's an excellent question. I think they have looked at it because the stacking requirements increased a little bit During this process, but we'll we can certainly ask starbucks. Who knows how that's gonna Yep, we can ask starbucks and see if they've had changes in what their requirements are since the advent of cove Because you're exactly right. You know, there's a lot more takeout business Yeah, than what they used to be So we'll ask that question and see what they have for a fun answer I was actually struck by the fact there was a large number of spaces you were providing the stacking Yeah But but you you make a good point. We're seeing it now Yes, you are seeing it now It's kind of like with banks, you know for years, you know, the bank wouldn't want to come in and want to have four drive-thru lanes and And you'd go by there and there was never anybody there and you know, like a why do you need four? Well now that covid hit, you know, you go buy some of the banks and and they're full And on there's two or three cars back up there. So there certainly has been a change Especially when it's not a lobby The stacking is a unique solution to this. So it is unique. Yeah, it was actually starbucks was the one who ordered the information They said she didn't have a number, but double-tacks. So Okay, I've seen that in other locations. It worked pretty well All right, so um, uh, we front the state highway, but we're using just existing access there So there's really any issues there Again, we just have the one curb cut the alignment is is based on the town center plan Spacing isn't an issue. We don't we don't have shared access Emergency vehicle access obviously Did you talk to the state about a? Review of that intersection To get their approval of this this development typically You know it Towns are required that if you have a development off of a state highway, are you referring to traffic study? No, I'm just saying just this I mean, there's an existing permit on on that road at 62 and berlin mall road But now you are adding this additional development, which has has traffic impacts and stuff like that Typically the state of Vermont wants another bite of the apple of that of that Route 62. Yes, so have you spoken to v trans at all? We have not spoken to v trans We will require a permit from v trans a 1111 permit because we will be rebuilding You know the Berlin mall road within that right away. Um, obviously there'll be a statutory part of active 50 They will be provided the traffic study, which I'll mention a little bit later But you know we we're We're pretty much the same as what's out there now on an entry road So we don't really think that uh that we're going to have much A comment or you really like to talk about them about is maybe some sort of pedestrian facilities along route 62 So we had something to connect to but that's a that's a that's a long haul for None of us have a limited access. Yeah Limited access for a reason. All right. I see a lot of people walking on that section of 62 nowadays So you envision that v trans permit After the fact of this of if the town of berlin what issue a permit when it looks like we're We have this fairly well nailed down and we're moving forward and then we'll start our state permit And we'll start we'll start that process with the with v trans once we have no Starting to storm water yet either. No, we have it. It's all it's fully designed. However We've got all the numbers we're ready to go But once again once we get this then we're gonna, you know, we'll be applying to get those storm water permits so Obviously, we need to know what's happening with the school district property because You know, some of those features are on their property and either either they've got to be a co-applicant or They need to transfer ownership to the town. You know all about that But obviously that's that holds us up a little bit before we go forward All right, continuing with the uh the site plan standards We were talking about that So all this is obviously contingent upon that working out. Yes, um one way or the other with an easement or whatever Did you have a plan b? Yes, we have a plan b and uh Okay, I don't even know what it is. We're working on this plan now We do have a plan b if that doesn't work out We'll be back with the same two buildings very similar to what they look like, but obviously the roads got to change All right, so we we can't build on someone else's property. So So so you can pretty much envision what plan b is going to come back. All right, so bike bicycle access That's that's an item that we have not addressed All right, so when we come back the next time we need to provide you more specifics about bike access in terms of You know, how many how many bike racks we're going to have where they're going to be It's going to be in the interior places, you know This box where I'm going to have places to put, you know, restore bikes And so we haven't provided you with any of that information We will when we come back. So we haven't addressed that portion of the site plan criteria to date And you're you're aware of our Multi-use path you've you've discussed that earlier on and So I hope you include Those assets that are you've been that mean been talking to Folks from from otter creek who are spearheading that Maybe we need to just have a conversation. Yes, you guys and otter creek. Yes, it would be good to talk to otter creek and see what they say So us through an access we've talked about that a little bit, you know, we have the eight foot multi-use path We have the fiber sidewalks inside. We have what we think is excellent pedestrian access throughout this new proposed town center We really don't have the internal walkways You know, obviously there's a walkway from the parking lot in the fox run and there's a small little walkway You know into the starbucks buildings, but you know, we don't have any cross country or any special internal Of walkways. Well, I think there was a note And maybe you could play out what was to going to the school Yeah, there's a note here, you know long-term plan is to have some sort of pedestrian access that goes across the school property So, you know, we we've shown You know a potential spot max done some work to try to determine maybe where the best place might be and that's where we're showing Right now, you know, we talked to the state about maybe a more direct path And and that was a very short conversation Talking about crossing that class too well That was like one of those are you kidding me? Okay, so uh landscaping and screening we have landscaping plans that are part of the sets You know starbucks require the fairly extensive landscaping along their property as uh, does fox run Fox one has a community garden area out front. Um, and we have the Weckwith at 50 foot spacing on street trees All along both roadways all the way in screening You know talked about screening it obviously as you drive there now, this is a very thick wooded area And uh, you know, we certainly won't be touching any of the space within the state highway Right away. So there's going to be you know an existing thick band of trees That's going to protect it, you know screening from route 62 The same thing along the back, you know again thick tree, you know, we're not going to be doing anything We don't see that There's any other place that we need to screen from we don't think there's any You know high sections are going to look down on this thing that You know We'd be glad to address it if someone Tells me otherwise, but we think the existing vegetation is going to provide more than adequate screening from uh route 62 in the adjacent streets Will you be doing any Clearing at all and within the buffer? With within this section, yeah, what little buffer zone? No The only place that we're going to impact the buffer is is here on the corner But along the back of starbucks, uh, this dash line is the 50 foot setback And we should be outside that we shouldn't have to clear or go into the buffer On whatsoever the only wetland impact again It is the corner. Yeah All right, same thing with the tension pond. We're right up tight to the 50 foot buffer And then but we're not going to go back to your point about the screening screening gets kind of Skippy as you get to the Far corner of the property Which a fox run will be on And you're cleared all the way back to the to the wetlands You'd be basically looking at the highway Well, you understand the buffer Yes, yeah, so so this is our clear two line here. Okay, you know So obviously you still have a big chunk of this unbuildable section and then you have You know all that tree there that's within the route 62. Well, it's not tree there But I don't think they're back all the way to there I have to look to see just I do It's it's it's tree, but it's it's still fairly thick in there. I actually picked up the wetlands Yeah Usually the guys are anxious to go out serving when they came down here to pick up these wetlands They weren't very anxious to go back a second day. It was pretty thick stuff All right, so we think you know in terms of parking lots utilities Most of the building utilities are gonna be either rooftop mounted. We'll have a few Power transformers that will have to provide a little screening form as we go forward, but we don't anticipate That will be a big issue. We have a Two dumpster areas that are both screening the one for starbucks is right here on the corner and the one for pox One is right off the edge of the parking lot again. It'll be a four-sided screening closure Outdoor lighting we talked about a little bit more in detail, you know our current plan You know complies With the requirements of the new town plan We'll be a class two lighting there a 12 foot tall pole. We will be an led 100 cutoff fixture Detail of it located in the in the seats in the sheets You do have a couple 20 foot poles too. Yeah, we have a couple of 24 poles for the parking lot I think there's two that do the parking lot The idea the advantage of the 20 foot pole with a new led in the sharp cutoff Is that that 20 foot pole will reach all the way across that sixth foot lot So you don't need poles on both sides and do it with one Used to be with the old leds With the old metal halide lights The bulb had to sit up inside the fixture quite a ways to be 100 cutoff So they wouldn't reach us for are they only reach about 40 or 45 feet Now with the leds because it's such a flat plane Dan you're on you're not on mute Oh, sorry Sorry, so now with the new leds They tend to be a little bit flusher and it's easier to direct them So it's easy to get them to shoot all the way across the 64 parking lot and not have You know that loss up into the up into the sky. So another nice feature of the leds Not not proposing any Any special use lighting, you know, we're not Kind of light up the side of the building or anything like that No really security lighting other than you know the parking lot lighting and they'll be, you know, obviously lights by the entrance doors Would you provide us with the usual statistical data on your lighting? Average yes, we certainly will. Yeah, and make sure we're dealing with usable areas Just just the average Just the average Average and uh, I forget what the other numbers involved Sometimes we'll give an average we'll give you a maximum maximum And a uniformity Standard calculations. Yep So the second place um that we're lacking tonight is Looking at your signs We do show on the starbucks plans where the Where the ordering boards are going to be where some of the directions are but we really haven't talked And provided any information any information on what fox one might have for a sign on their property directing you to their building Or again, we haven't shown any starbucks sign that might be out along the roadway So we will get that information to you Your attention to request a sign approval at this time or will you defer that and come back in a second time? I don't know that I'll have to really talk to the Berlin mall folks and see Just how they'd like to treat that at this point in time. It's a discussion we haven't had so I don't I'm not going to volunteer either way. Which way we're going to go We'd likely defer You'd likely defer. We would likely defer and get it later. That's typically what we do The uh, the issue with deferring, um You can only defer so long when we go to act two fifty after fifty if you're going to have a sign You've got to do it for act two fifty because they are not happy campers if you come back to amend your act two Because you failed to give them sign details the first time around I think signs here in in town only require the approval of zoning administrator Is that correct mr. Zoning administrator? That's correct So I'm going to skip the sign. You don't need a hearing. Okay. There's a lot of stuff on signs, directory signs, pages Yeah, yeah, that's the first thing I wrote down here. Where are they? What is it? So no detail provided on signs at this time. No, okay. No, we will provide that All right And then you decide what you want to buy this board. You want to simply provide for the zoning administrator All right, so I'm jumping all the way to outdoor use areas. Um, obviously we have an outdoor patio area on our Starbucks that we'll be using that you know, there's some outdoor use areas of fox run, but community garden You know, there's some lawn if not don't think it really meets the intent of your regulations We're certainly the space outside of Starbucks is going to be tables. You're going to be able to sit out there You know, enjoy your coffee or a sandwich or whatever. So that's What we do show that they're shown in detail on the Starbucks plan. So we believe that That we comply with that. We're not asking for any outdoor storage So we don't need to address that section of the regulations And then there's the performance standards, right? Um, noise Certainly don't expect to be a large producer of noise. You know, we have a residential building and uh, and the drive-thru We don't expect to produce any glare All our pictures are going to be led 100 cutoff Odors Maybe if you really despise the smell of coffee, you might be set back a little bit But other than that, we don't think there's any Unpleasant odors that will come from either and the same with vibration. We don't we're not producing anything. We don't have any equipment that's going to produce any excessive vibration We don't expect to produce any electrical radio interference waste storage. We have a we have enclosures for both uses that will take both waste materials and recycling We don't we're not producing a particular amount of airborne solids And not producing any flammable toxic or hazardous substances Jumping to erosion control. We have a full set of erosion control plans We will require an erosion control from the state of mont You go into a fair amount of detail with erosion control practices, which are generally out of the state erosion requirements Stormwater management we talked about that a little bit before and then we had two Stormwater areas Gravel wetlands one for the fox lawn building in the parking lot and a larger one that takes the remainder of the site and Is size to take the future development areas And that's still drainage is part of this design now, right? That's correct. I didn't go through it in detail But so you've already got your collection system. Yes And and to the rest of my knowledge. We are not asking for any waivers so last Yes I have a question So i'm assuming the timing of this precluded any collaboration with the current stormwater Study that's happening Is this independent of that? Actually, no, it's not because we are doing a stormwater study Oh, okay our firm so so we're uh So this is just a piece of looking at the the whole parcel Yes, the three-acre three-acre rule the three-acre rule So we're looking at the all of the berlin ball property along with the car dealers along the The access road on the on the fisher road. Okay. You're involved with them, too. Yes, we are Two boys and king is doing the cdmc. Yeah you Moving on to condition you stand and so before you move on if you don't mind Looks like your water and sewer assets are like Right in the middle of the streets So if you're having to do any repairs or tearing up the roads it if you give an eight thought though to Getting them out on the edges somewhere so they're not so much disruption of traffic if something happens or or or More more importantly the cost of replacement of the asphalt and stuff Looks like both of them are going right down the middle of the of the road and Those are costly ventures to do if you have to do a repair Uh, we haven't looked at that Sewer typically runs down the middle of the street. Um water we can we can certainly relocate the water outside of the future street Sewer we can look at too. I mean we we've had projects where we've located The issue the issue in that 60 foot right away is that you know, we're gonna have power on one side that we've got to kind of deal with um You know, we kind of run out of space, you know, so the middle of the street is nice because the sewer being a brand new sewer You know, you know, we would hope that would have a you know a 50 or 70 or 80 year You know life cycle before we had to do anything with it. So yeah city mom pillar thought that too But yeah, so we can look we can look and see if we can't move certainly Certainly the water we can look to move that out of the way wherever we can Particularly gait valves hydrants obviously hydrants aren't going to be in the road but trying to move The problem areas so that you get access to Thank you. So, um Traffic calming features. Have you added anything to hear that the calm traffic pedestrian bump valves or any of that kind of stuff here We have not. All right. Um, really wasn't anything shown in your town plan about that. It's There's some traffic calming features that are built into it. I mean the fact that you have on street parking Definitely slows people up. I mean And you have very sharp corners like like this corner You know, that that's a sharp corner. You know, in fact, it's We've been we've been tweaking it to make sure that our 18 wheeler is going to be able to get through there And it's close, you know for them right now, but you know the sharp corner And why does he knows when you come in you We're back I can hear you and see you now. Yeah You're left So we have it we haven't specifically looked at any additional traffic calming it Are there any pedestrian crossing Yes, I mean that's pedestrian crossing here You know crossing here crossing here. So, you know, you're familiar with bump valves, right? So it may be at the crossings that we do a raised crossing bed, you know Trying to slow down traffic. The area I'm most concerned about is in front of Chestnut place, you know people come out of here And they get on it, you know, it's that you know, you got a 400 foot straight away The four stop signs are up now. So yeah, yeah, that's good. And so Yeah, but potentially we can we can look at maybe doing at least At least design something and if it turns out it's a problem so we could come back and implement it So then you at the at the turn, right? Okay, the yeah right there up up up. Yeah, right there So the access to the future goes to the left here, right that that t-intersection What do you envision there as as traffic control stop sign light? Is there a light that goes in there? No, I think it'll just be a stop. I don't I don't think this t-section is going to happen You don't think you'll too much impact on the wetland. I and that's why we kind of redesign this with a t here We think that this is going to be your access Okay, uh to this part and we would envision that this would be a four-way stop once Once this happened it'd be just a stop sign here initially Through movement, but once you had development here, it would it would become a four-way stop You don't that's relatively close to 62. Yeah, but you don't think it's gonna back traffic No, okay, you've got 300 feet I mean, you know, I just I can't envision having that much traffic We've got to think that through because it may not be a four-way maybe just stop signs on the two side streets But that's that's something that's easy to adjust and you just have to you know Kind of get a feel for you know the reason to make it a four-way stop is because you're getting too much speed along here That's what I'm trying to What can clone traffic down here because it is a it's a it's a highway now The biggest problems with four-way stops in an area like this is that You know people don't obey them and You know people on the main road tend to blow through them and that's when you know the potential for You know pedestrian collision or a car collision, you know happened, so So I missed it. I don't know if you brought it up. I don't think you did but but Sewer water allocations, I think I Sean sent you proposed sewer and water allocations Hmm today Of no So I don't think we've had them and I don't think Typically this board Doesn't grant permits until those allocations are are done and and they're With respect to what you're different board. Yes with respect to wastewater. There's a there's a fee associated with it but as we did with with The senior housing project there Plus work board says if your project doesn't come to fruition, you'll get get the monies back, right? Yes So do you have those numbers? Yes, and we'll send them to you again tomorrow, but okay for for starbucks we're anticipating that We have a total of 55 seats including the outdoor seating and typically eight employees. So we're expecting a design flow of 304 gallons per day And then for the fox run building. I don't think they've settled 100 on their mix But assuming this 15 one bedroom units and 15 two bedroom units They will fire 5,250 gallons per day So a total is 7554 Gallons per day. We certainly don't expect any water pressure issues or anything like that. We have a tremendous water pressure out there The public board board meets this coming monday if you wanted to get applications in by then Or the then the next meeting would be the Second monday in january. We'll probably go for the second monday in january because obviously we won't be back and they're going to do that Yep. Yep. Yep Do you anticipate any issues there tom? Of having an allocation? Yep. Nope. Great. You know, I've had lots of allocations. Oh, let me see That's all I have All right conditional use standards. We'll wrap it up and then we'll jump to the architects. Yeah All right chapter 3 30 conditional use standards the capacity of community facilities and utilities We have not talked to a local school. We're not aware that there's any issue with uh, with the school age trolling I believe a Fire commented on access. We haven't seen a comment from police Does the police commented on your sketch plan and he said nothing has changed since since then so So It was a it was a fairly lengthy comment from the police chief on that sketch plan So water supply sewage disposal of storm water we talked about. We don't think that there's uh, we think that you do have At a capacity for us there In terms of traffic, um Roger Dickinson prepared a traffic impact study that we submitted to you Um, roger's the same one who did it for chestnut place and ducevich the same one who did it for the car deal expansion that came in looked at the root 62 burlin mall access intersection looked at the uh, fisher road Burlin mall access intersection then it looked at the signalized intersections Fisher road and root 62 The 30 unit multifamily housing building is a very low traffic impact producer roger estimated to only produce 11 a.m peak trips and 21 p.m peak trips The starbucks is a large reducer well said the large producer in the a.m produces a total of 215 a.m peak trips and uh as expected the p.m. Number drops considerably down to 97 p.m peak trips The the trips for starbucks are Are downgraded a little bit because it's the traffic consultant uses what they consider to be bypass trips in other words It's not expected that people are going to drive from my pillar just to go to starbucks that most of the traffic Get out of starbucks the people who currently use root 62 or go to the mall or Work out at planet fitness or whatever so The the data suggests that Up to 80 or 90 percent of the trips might be bypass For purposes of the study roger assumes 50 percent So he only used half half of it bypass the other half for new trips, but when you look down through the data You know basically hardly makes any difference in the level of service all all the intersections Have good existing level of services typically in the you know b and c range and they They have a slight increase in delay, but they basically remain On the same level roger had a couple recommendations He noted that there's no speed limit signs currently along the berlin access road and suggested that we add a number of those And also suggested that in places along the current road some of the vegetation was blocking some of the site distances and just to look at that and depending on how You know this new road ends up being configured that we just keep an eye on the vegetation and make sure we don't We don't impact site distances around some of the corners So gladly would entertain any of the questions on the impact study, but It's fairly straightforward. So roger assumed that 50 of the traffic going to starbucks would probably be at the mall anyway Yes, at the mall are going to and from the interstate ramp as you can think you know in the morning someone's jumping on the interstate to go to work Swings in the starbucks and then pulls back out. So that's you know fairly reasonable. I think It doesn't make the intersection though. The uh, no Actually improves the level of service in one direction. There's so many trips that come off and go back So it's kind of odd when you when you look at the numbers and say, yeah, how'd that one get better? And then when you look into a little bit deeper, you can see why it is that one movement actually got better All right character of the area, obviously Are you supposed to be trans? Oh, we have not but they will certainly be doing it. Yep Character of the area so obviously we're within the town center. Um, these are allowed uses within the town center So we certainly don't expect that it's gonna That it is going to be compatible with the area and it's not going to impair or diminish the value of any surrounding properties natural resource protection We don't have any steep slopes. We don't have primate soils We're not aware that there's any necessary wildlife habitat after consulting some of the state maps We are having some impacts on the wetland as we talked about right here in the corner We have a couple hundred feet of wetland that we're going to impact Actually how a wall that we've designed they're a small six foot tall retaining wall to kind of minimize that impact because we know That's what folks are going to come back and tell us and do everything we can To minimize the impact. So we just said hey, let's just do the wall You know be done with it and show good for them. How high is the wall? Six feet Are you using any tie backs for that wall? Not expected to know it'd be a gravity block wall Gravity block wall? Yeah I finally got around six feet and you've got a load On it Obviously, you're just you're designing you're not just swinging it. But yes, it does need to look hard. I think it Some retaining. Yeah, let me take a look. We you know, typically we think about when we hit eight feet and higher We you know, we do there were some sort of retaining whether it's greater tie backs Six feet. We're usually fairly happy with the gravity wall, but we'd be glad to look at It doesn't cost much to put in a grid. No, it does not. Grid is cheap Energy conservation maybe just replace the wall myself. Yeah Energy conservation We don't expect that we're going to reduce solar access to any adjacent properties. Obviously We're very pedestrian friendly, you know, we're going to promote, you know, that people ride bikes or not use their cars here Certainly the public trans mass transit currently services them all we expect that they're going to continue to service this property and You know, if anything, we think that will likely Last one is conformance with these regulations. Um, you know, we believe that that we are Conforming fully with the zoning application with the zoning requirements for this district and And I'll gladly entertain any questions or if you want to think about it We'll give a, you know David and Joe a chance to talk about the building architecture a little bit and I'll Sit down and take a break. Um, that'll be good Thank you You want some of the boards? Well, I was wondering, Sean, do you have our elevations? We do I can't work off of this But I think if you put the elevations on this on the screen, it would work too. Yeah Want this one first and do you care? Yeah, I'm gonna actually speak on this first Okay, yeah, that's fine. I'll I'll edge it Okay, thank you guys So Paul's done a great job. He's kind of Oh, I'm sorry, my name's David Roy with wean and lamp here architects on behalf of ever north and down street And and the designer for the fox run building Um, Paul, I'm not going to repeat a lot of what Paul and even nicola Started to say earlier. I want to start me for a minute. I know we've seen some semblance of these before but these were not submitted with our package So We did not have an opportunity to review these drawings at all. Okay Uh, just so you just tell you up front because you're sorry you're catching us blind I think you got starbucks, but you didn't get these that's starbucks. We did not get these so My apologies. I thought you had a had already been submitted So we really you you need to go slowly here And and frankly you need the first of copies Yes, okay, we'll take we'll take care of that. Yeah When we got him it was kind of too late to send the whole package back So tom and I already sent all his packets out. So That was my mistake on the timing for our drawings So not a big deal. We know We do you put me back. So we'll go through it slowly. We'll make sure you You're understanding Yep, there will be no intelligent questions And we will have questions. Okay, very good. Um, so you've spoken about, um This road here. I just want to reiterate that, uh, we're actually coming up this road There's a five percent grade incline from this Mall road mall property road up as we move south So this this parking area is quite elevated above this level here And that's also indicated by the grades in front of this building on the north side of this buildings As you come off the road, there's going to be quite a slope to get up to the main level of that building So I just want you to be all aware of that Thank you That was actually a good drawing. It's okay Again, they've they've spoken ultimately about the 30 person parking lot We have 30 units in the building 15 just to do the allocation. There's 15 two bedroom, uh units One three bedroom units and 14 one bedroom units And I can restate that next for you Um We have 30 parking spots as he's alluded to, uh on the south side of the building And there's going to be a community gardens area here And a play area here for children And there's the main entrance to the building comes from the parking lot Into the south side of the building there There's kind of an outdoor covered canopy area We'll have all the all the lighting will be recessed up into that canopy And there's a bike rack location under that canopy as well We have sidewalks which connects to another door an exit door here an exit way That comes along the parking lot and connects in with the Sidewalk parking that paul was referring to along both sides of the Drive the roads And again this we'll have a We'll have a west side entry exit component here That gets us access onto this road from inside the building And we have an entry point also on the north side of the building Which we are trying like a dickens to try and get it to line up in some way to uh Um to what did you call acorn? Chestnut Chestnut please Chestnut place You get one of that right? So we're we're trying to work through some more detailing around getting that alignment of those The sidewalks To just reinforce that connection Possibly we could look at some road calming if we're able to do that as well along that intersection The bike path here, we connect back into there from a sidewalk into the multi-modal path. Really like that element, I think it's really going to reinforce connection to any development which takes place here and here. So I think that's a really positive attribute as opposed to one on the back of the property. Our stormwater retention is off to the east side of the building, just north of the wetlands buffer as delineated by that dotted line. The building is a three story, 30 unit as I indicated before, approximately 34 feet in total with a flat roof on top and we'll be utilizing heat pump technology so everything's electrically based heating and cooling with the mechanical units on the roof. Is that heating going to rely entirely on heat pumps? It does. We're talking about what avenues we have for backup. We can actually provide a small amount of electric resistance for backup. I'm not sure if that's the direction we'll go or not, but we are evaluating options for that. Best of my knowledge, heat pumps still are making it when it gets to 30 below. Yeah, when we get to design temperatures that are 13 below, whatever, if there's a prolonged period of time, it obviously impacts the ability of that heat pump to maintain pressure. So you will need some sort of backup. I'm not sure what it's going to be at this time. And we haven't hired our full design team. Yeah, that's correct. The selection process is underway for the engineers. So the building itself, we've got an element that connects like a horizontal element on the first floor, a band that connects the entry on the north side of the building here to the entry on the east side of the building there. It kind of wraps around and anchors that corner to the street intersection. And obviously the main entrance is independent and just a free, open, clear, open to the south side of the, so this is the element, as I said, this is raised quite high above the main mall road, mall property road. And then that first floor element will, there's an entry component there and an entry component on the west side. We're kind of wrapping around and connecting that. The materials are. This is the north side, the street that besides it's looking at the street. The mall property road. This is the road that's going from mall property road up to our parking. And we'll have an entry element on that side as well with egress stairs and we'll have our secondary means of access egress will be on that western side as well. We have, we've revised the elevation of the windows a little bit. We have bigger windows in the living rooms, a little bit smaller in the bedrooms. So there's a different fenestration pattern that's evolving I guess we'll say. But in general, we'll get that updated to you and so you understand. But it's a mix of composite materials, both clad board and vertical siding to create a mix look and probably some slightly different colors. More in the earth tones and gray ranges. Like a hardy plank or what? Well, there's a product called WKKWP. It's a mineral board, a little bit different newer product. It's not a cementitious board like a hardy plank. Something that we're using, it's got a good warranty. It's pre-finished, but it's actually got wood as its base material, but it's a resinous composite. So in our regulations, we talk about building materials. Does that meet what we have in our zoning regulation? I believe it does. It's very similar in the look and feel to a cementitious or clad board type product. We can share that a little bit further, but that's our recent, yeah. I just request, review that. And if this is new technology and we should be adding that type of product to this regulation, we should be doing that. Happy to do that, yeah. It's not a supporting documentation about effects. So this is, again, the Berlin Mall roadside. Before you leave there. So what's, they're like bump outs, is that, I mean, help me. So these are recessed in just a little bit to provide a little bit of undulation. How much recess do you think that is? I think it was about a foot almost, yeah. And then we also like the roof line will be interrupted just a little bit. These have just flat canopy roofs that stick out over the entry at all the entry points of downcast lighting within the recessed ceiling of it. Very simple, straightforward. If you've seen, Nikola manages the down street property and very probably similar in nature in terms of scale, materiality, those types of attributes. Nikola, that's a darker building than this building, isn't it? That's like a green, yeah. Yeah, it's a great green. So you're familiar with what's being built across the street, right? At the senior housing project. Oh, do you suggest this part? Yeah, yeah. So how do these two look compared to each other? Well, we looked very closely at the elevation. We didn't look so much at the detailing of the trims and finishes. Very early on, we were looking at the relative scale of the buildings to be concerned that one wouldn't overpower the other because we're uphill from it. So our focus was really on balancing the height as you drive through the street to manage the height. Of course, they have a different roof line as well. From a material quality, I don't think we were trying to emulate them in any way. We kind of wanted our own character and look. Feel free to give anything to add. But yeah, we were worried more about the massing, the relationship of the road. We really did want to bring it close to the road. Paul alluded to being 39 feet to the build-to line. That's really limited by this incline from the road. It's hard to manage that and still get it right. Do you see people using this front entrance much? This side? Yeah. I think if you're going to Walmart, you'll drop right down that front entrance and down sidewalk. It'll be an eight foot wide multimodal path along that edge. I think that'll encourage its use and activity. We have to manage that stairway pretty well and integrate it in. If we can align it with the Chestnut Hill property, I think we can encourage that connection and reinforce that connectivity. The jewels have an eastern west access too, right? We do. Yeah. So this is on the west side coming out onto that street as well. And more than half, maybe 50% of our entries to have handicap accessibility. So we're going to have a ramp access off that, come over to the high point close to the parking, and then come down the road. So we're almost going to have two parallel sidewalks for a bit. There's no access on the east though. There's no access on the east. It's a stormwater retention area right out on the eastern side here. And there's units that front right on that as well. Paul, I think, referred to some of the site elements that we have. We have the dumpster location at the end of this turnaround. We have like a smoking zone outside of the building because smoking is not committed within. We have community gardens along this front entry area. It's on the south side, so good access to sun and light. And then we have play space and 30 parking spots. Dave, I was thinking about the height question. And maybe it would be helpful to explain a little bit why the building needs to have that first floor elevation there. And we can't just sink the building down to be right at grade with the road because of the wetlands and drainage and so forth. That might be helpful. Just understand that we're limited by the site constraints and where our first floor is at. And then also the other piece is meeting the accessibility requirements really on the side and from behind. We spent a lot of time on moving our building and saying what happens if we go up? What happens if we go down? And we were into a few feet of where our first floor could be. What was the meaning of the first floor elevation? I mean, you could have been at the street level, no? That's what I'm saying. Why not? Yeah, I mean, if we were to be down at street level, we wouldn't be able to have any units front on this side. We'd be engaged into the hillside. Just the first floor, right? Just the first floor, yeah. But when are you trying to maximize the net usable space and community space? And stormwater. And stormwater. I know, Kevin, if you want to chime in here at all on some of those sites and strengths. Yeah, I think you covered them. I mean, the other component is groundwater, right? We're, as you know, not too far from that wetland and the wetland buffer. And so digging down 10, 12 feet into the existing grade is going to have some groundwater issues. Yeah, yeah. It was made by the interstate in the first place. True. Any questions? You were... Yeah, let me just stop you a second. Christy or, not Christy, Carla and Polly, do you have any questions? No, I don't think so. I've been looking forward to seeing the revised drawings. Yeah. Yeah, my apologies. I thought everything was in your packages and on time and that's our fault. We'll make sure you have that. I'm good. The height of the steps, do you know what those are going to be? Six inch steps or... Yeah. The rise? The rise, yes. On this, I think it's nine or 10 feet. Maybe even more. He's looking for the trend height. Seven inch height and 11 inch tread. Yeah, that's the maximum allowable. Do you think it should be less? I'm thinking it should be less. Yeah, I mean you can do that. Sometimes in ski area settings we'll do a shorter riser and a wider tread. And that's okay, we can look at that. You're talking about the outside steps, right? Yeah. It should be wider than seven inches, I think. Yeah, the tread will be 11 inches deep and then seven inches in height. Oh, the riser, okay. Okay, yeah. The stairs are eight inches in a residential setting. And outside steps are usually like six, so. Yeah. I'm not opposed to doing that, that's fine. Since you like to keep that ratio correct. Unless it's covered, steps. Yeah, these are not tread. The tread of 11 inches doesn't give you a lot to work with. One inch times, you don't really need to snow. Okay. I don't know whether you got the room for that. It's tight, I won't make it work. Yeah, I think we're kind of taking a hard look at that corner now that we have our building set where it needs to be in terms of relationship to the road and the parking and the sidewalks. The front corner and that front entry is challenging. And I think we're going to look at it maybe engaging landscape designer to try to soften that and see what we can do there. Yeah. I think we're going to look at that front door and those steps down to the multi-use path. I would call that a work in progress. And we wanted to present something that says, we know we need to have a front door. And we know we need to get down to the sidewalk. It would be popular, I mean it would be used. Right, so you'll see an evolution of that. You need to have more of the minimum height rise and minimum tread. Yeah. I agree. I didn't think that way. And Kevin, I think you and I can work through that. Absolutely. I guess it's one other question if I may. I think you mentioned earlier that you're not looking at EV charging stations at all. Even for the parking at Fox Run or... Paul alluded to that. We haven't mentioned incorporating EV charging stations in this. We will presuming that we have to go through Act 250. Yeah. And we haven't crossed that threshold yet. We would most likely be required to meet the stretch code and have the EV stations. Yeah. But we're fully prepared to do that. That's not a requirement for the town per se. And so that's something that we're going to incorporate in our own site plan as we would move through Act 250. That said, what I've actually heard from some of our partners around the state and other affordable housing developments is that actually there has been an increase in the use and ownership of electric vehicles by our residents. So we're attuned to that. And we're certainly open to doing more into doing that. So it's not something we're going to resist. No pun intended. So will that be added to the Berlin plan or not? Yeah. I mean, I think it makes sense because it is the trend. And you don't want this to be outdated in a few years. And Act 250 is going to require it. I don't know the exact number. And it's no longer a stretch code. It's part of the requirement now. Yeah. So I guess we didn't look at it for this application, but we will as part of Act 250. And we can incorporate it into it. We should incorporate it. It's definitely missing. Yeah. Got it. Heard you. Yeah, we got it. Do you have anything further you wanted to share with us? I think that covers what I had to say. I'm happy to let their architect weigh in. And then if anybody has any questions, I can come back. Before I let you sit down. The question by the boards. No. No. Tom. And so this is not the final drawing. You said the windows are changing. Yeah, we've even changed it since then. So yeah, we're just trying to refine it a little bit for a cost estimate that we're preparing. Yeah. When do you think we'll have something closer to the final? We submitted it to Sandra today. So I would, we can get it to you this week. Yeah. Well, we haven't said it. We haven't said a future hearing date. But you know, we obviously want an opportunity to review it before the meeting. Yeah. No, I will definitely have it before the next meeting. For sure. And this elevation is, is a very accurate indication that we're headed in terms of the overall, you know, massing and the different materials. And fenestration. Yeah. In the general pattern of segmenting the building into three sections. We're pretty settled on that design. We really like that. And again, as Dave said, it's the sizing of the windows that we're going to tune into now. So what, I wouldn't expect to see anything terribly different when we, when we come back based on what I've heard so far in terms of the elevation. So obviously now is the time to hear that. So. Well, again, we need an opportunity to digest your drawings and prepare with our own bylaws, which we are still learning. That's fair. You're right. That is definitely fair. And Matt, you said you were going to gusty up this north elevation with landscaping. I said that we are talking to a landscape designer and we are looking at different ways to solve that design challenge of the steps. How do we really engage that? It's going to be a very notable feature in the whole, in the whole scheme of things. So we don't want to. Will that be part of the next middle? We do. The landscaping plan is in progress and we'll have that for you. That would be good. I'm going to try to wrap this up by nine o'clock tonight. So what I'd like to do is we've got, we know we're going to have further discussion on this and we'd be able to review this, but more specifically revised drawings. Perhaps we could hear from the other architectural. Yes. Thank you. Personally, I think the building looks nice. So we can go back to the Starbucks. Yeah. Hi guys. Just kidding. I'm going to share my screen if that's okay. Hopefully you got it off yourself. Either way. This is fine. This is fine. I could just go through this. Just want to kind of talk about the Starbucks. Joe, reintroduce yourself. Yes. I am Joe Davidson. Partner at Ignori Lumbus Architects. We are the architect for the Starbucks building and we're working for Heinenberg properties. So we're the Starbucks building itself. We kind of took a look at some of the Starbucks materials and designs that were in Vermont, particularly Essex Junction. Also reviewed Starbucks design standards. They have certain requirements for the inside of their store and certain finishes and branding that they want. And I know I'm not going to really talk too much about the site and drive through window because I think that was kind of addressed already. But that is a standard that that Starbucks has kind of determined based off of their operations for stores. So the stacking bed, the number of car stacking and all that is kind of their requirement based off their history of, I think it's their peak time, which is usually in the morning for the drive through. We did take a look at the architectural standards. And I guess what I'd like to do is kind of give a little overview of the building and then kind of highlight how we believe we are meeting these standards. And then obviously we are open to hear any comments and your opinions on the building. So there are a number of materials in the Starbucks elevation and you can see that in this rendering. This here is a wood siding. It is a varied texture, a ton of wood siding. It has depth to it. And the boards themselves are not on a regular pattern. They are various widths and sizes that rain from four inches to eight inches. We also have some darker brick here, storefront and glass. That is the best majority of the front of the building. The parts that do not have any windows on are part of the back of house or restroom areas. So you won't be seeing the glass there. And then one element of the standards was the non-primary use of epists. We do have some epists on this building. We believe that there are a variety of different materials here. And textures that this is not necessarily primary material because we have brick, the wood and the epists all going together. There is an outdoor seating area with a covered sunscreen canopy. There is also a solid canopy that runs around two sides of the building. And on the back side if I can go to the next rendering. Thank you. Hey Joe, I'm going to just show my ignorance. What is epist? Epist is called an exterior insulation and finish system. What it is is that it is basically a foam insulation which we have to provide some continuous insulation on the exterior building anyway for insulation and energy efficiency for the code. And then this has basically a textured finish. I would say stucco but it is not necessarily a stucco thing. It is like a textured finish stucco on top of that foam. And you are saying our regulations discourage that? The regulations, I'm just pulling them up right now, it is number four in the materials. It just says synthetic stucco epist. It cannot be used as a primary exterior cladding material. It does not prohibit it. It just does not allow it to be the primary material. So what percentage of this building is epist? I don't know exactly offhand but just a rough estimate I would say probably around 30%. I would say we have probably 50, or less than 50% of it brick and maybe 20 to 25 of it. And if you look at, I believe we have all four elevations. That might be a better picture. You can see on the back of the building, it is a little bit more of the epist use. And then the wood used to define the drive-up window, the pick-up window. On the front of the building, I would say that that material is probably the epist material is less than 20% of the facade. On the patio elevation there is no epist material on there also all the pedestrian facing sides of the material really are of the building use this material very sparingly where it does get a little more use is on the rear elevation which is the smaller side here and then the drive-through lane elevation which is a little bit more. But in no instance is it over 50% of the facade. So can I ask you whatever the final design is that you give us a statement from you indicating the percentages of the materials used in that? Yes, we can add that to the plan on the next submission. I understand that we will probably be back here so I will add the percentages of material on the facade. Thank you. I have a little trouble with orientation. Main entrance elevation, that's facing the B Street, correct? Correct, yes. And that has a street parking along this front. Right. Beside that main street elevation. Why wouldn't the rear be the backside of that? I think it's just mislabeled. It should be the rear. It should be the drive lane elevation. Okay. So which side is the patio side? So if we're looking at the main entrance elevation side, the patio side. It's towards the housing. Yes, towards the housing. It's the left side and yet you're correct. That is towards the housing. Okay. And I know Kevin had mentioned this screen wall or this wall here to help extend the length of the building. It also actually serves a purpose of screening the vehicles from the pedestrian street that are going to be in that drive aisle as well. So we think that's a nice feature to have. So I know we're trying to get out of here. So I'm just going to go through the, each little section of the standards that you have. I'm not going to shut it down at nine o'clock, but I'm just saying that my goal was not to go much past nine o'clock. Yeah. But I'm not going to go over that already. I'm going to bring it back. So we thought we'd like to cover as much as we could. Yeah. And I think, you know, I'll kind of give you our, you know, um, Plans to, we, we talked about orientation. The building is oriented to the street and main entrance is, is facing the, um, the street parking. Um, we do have the entrance sign element here with an keys over the, uh, the window elements. Um, of meet the entry element feature here. Although it's not as pronounced as maybe it could be in terms of your standards. Part two is the articulation. Now, in your standards, it says that the building needs to be broken up into sections. They can't be any more than 80 feet. The entire building length on the longest side is only 71 feet. And with that, we have broken up that building with a variety of different materials in terms of the wood, the ethus, the brick, and the glazing. So on each side of the building, and even the drive-through lane, materials are broken up into much smaller lengths than the 80 foot length in your standards. But Joe, it still looks like a box to me, right? Okay. I don't know if people told you the history of what this area is going into. Berlin doesn't have a traditional downtown, and so they've been working 25 years to get a state approval to, in effect, create a downtown. And so this building is like the first building you come to in our new town center. And I just don't see a lot of wild to it. I, you know, it's a pretty corporate-looking building. I don't know what the rest of the troops think, but that's my thought, that it's, I think it needs to be gussied up, but I'm only one. Okay, we can certainly take a look at it. I know one, you know, we did look at these standards, and I know that this comment had come up before in one of the meetings, and certainly we'd be willing to look at it. I would ask if there would be some relief to the 25 foot high building, and maybe we can kind of break up some of these roof lines a little bit more. The, at 22 feet, we are covering all the rooftop equipment that Starbucks will have. So anything above 22 feet is really just some additional screening, but it's not gonna hide anything that's on this roof any better once it exceeds 22 feet. So I don't know where the standard came of what that 25 foot height requirement is, which is a story and a half, but we would certainly look at kind of breaking this up a little bit because I think the building is getting a little bit top-heavy in terms of the design. We can certainly look at some other ways to kind of make it less boxy, less corporate-looking, but with the understanding that obviously Starbucks has some requirements that we'd have to meet as well, but they are somewhat flexible. But in terms of the footprint of the building, there really are a limited number of footprint options that plan options that we have where their building would work inside. So really what we're talking about is making some changes to the exterior portions of these buildings. And some of that maybe just some steps and some articulations. But again, this building is only 71 feet long. So I definitely would like to have some more discussions and let us take a look at that with our client. But we certainly appreciate the comment and we'll work to make it more acceptable. Yeah, I agree that a little more articulation would be nice. Okay. And I always thought, Joe, that wall that, and I sort of like the wall concept, but if there was a way for the town of Berlin to have like notices on it, I don't know if that could be done. I've sent this to a couple of people and I always look at me kind of cross-eyed like I'm full of it. You know, you see what I'm looking at this? This is gonna be in our downtown. And if we could have, we would have a section saying school board meeting tonight or whatever, you know that. You've done thousands of these and I've done zero of these. And I was wondering if you can get creative and help us out here, maybe. Yeah. I'd rather try to see you go with your public art but you're here not the notice board. Fair enough, yeah, something, yeah. Are you and probably both, but I was thinking the same thing about some type of public art thing. You're talking about on the six foot wall, screen wall up here. Yeah, I know you can't see my cursor, but yeah, okay. I do think the roof line needs to be broken somehow. Yeah. That's where the boxness comes from. We figure out a way to break that roof line either by receding it or something and it will be in and around. Or does it have to be the whole length have to be 25 feet? No, I don't think the whole length has to be 25 feet. That's, but I have to re-read my own bylaws. Because Subaru was in the whole 25. Right, right, right. So I think there's an opportunity to get a little creative with that roof line and make it look less like a box. Okay. We can certainly look at that for sure. We're thinking out loud here when that's not ruling. No, and I know that this is kind of what we're looking for because these, you know, we all know what the standards are, but they're, you know, there's a lot of flexibility in these standards. So we want to make sure that we're meeting them. I like your courtyard. I think the courtyard is nice. I like that a lot. Yeah, and I think that'll be a nice place to sit outside. Like I said, it's not a fully covered patio, but it's a sunscreen courtyard patio. Is there anything besides a trellis? I mean, or just a trellis, not yet. Well, you have this screen wall. I don't know if you can, if you go back to the elevation, the main entrance, there's a four foot high brick screen wall here as well to help screen this area. I'm thinking of a roof line. There's nothing to prevent precipitation. There is nothing to present precipitation right now, but that is certainly something we can look at. I just wondered. Typically, you know, in these outdoor areas in inclement weather, they don't really get used. It doesn't look like the regulations say the entire building has to be 25 feet. It's silent on that. It says a 25 foot height. It doesn't say 100% or 50%. That's what we came to in our last application. Okay, so since we have some flexibility there, we can certainly play with these roof lines to break up this building a little more. And then, you know, in terms of windows, I mean, obviously, I think we kind of meet the requirements there. This is the back side of the building and the backside of the plan that we pick up. There's not a lot of windows up in that pickup window, but if that's the whole back of house, that's their kitchen, their serving area, their coffee making area. So that really doesn't lend itself to having the windows on the side. And, Joe, I've heard just another application that I'm, again, I have no experience in it, but the second floor, if it was faux, that if you put structures up there that gave the impression that there was a second floor there, but it's not, there's a second floor, isn't there? How does that look in something like this? If this one might be a little bit tougher to do just because I think we might want to, you know, with the way Starbucks is being, we'll say the corner, right? Which is kind of like the kind of, we'll call it the iconic element here, right? With the wood. I think windows and that might look a little bit forced instead of like natural, right, should be. So I'm not sure that that would work in this situation. In terms of putting these, we'll call it not faux windows, but secondary windows and make it look like a two-story building. But we certainly can look at these options and suggestions and then when we, you know, come back, hopefully we can give you a couple ideas that we think will make it more palatable. What you guys are trying to do with this down, down. In another, I don't know, silly stupid idea, something on the roof, iconic, you know, that sits above, you know, some sort of structure. I don't know what that would be, but. You're a clock tower, mind you. No, I'm not a clock tower. No, I'm thinking like, let's get the one from the bank. I'm thinking, you know, we saw some, there's so much stuff on the internet, don't worry. But I don't know if you've done anything like that, that would, you know, point it up in the air and make people wanna travel to this Starbucks and say, holy hell, that looks pretty cool. Right. Okay, yeah, I mean, we've done a different, you know, we've done a lot of different designs for Starbucks. So, and other, you know, smaller buildings like this. So there's certainly things we can look at to kind of give you a little bit more, we'll call it a beacon, I guess. Yeah, yep. For the building. Yeah, that's a great idea, the name beacon. Do you hear anything else, Kevin? I mean, Joe. Unless you have any further questions, I think, you know, we kind of have the general idea of what some of the comments are. I'm just kind of open here to listening to the board and we'll certainly take those comments and see what we can do. Yeah, anything for the tour? Nothing? Polly, anything further? No. Polly? So I lost you in the camera here. Tom, do you have anything for the comments? I think we need to talk about a date. Yeah, I was gonna say, let's talk about schedule. Let's talk about dates. We need to buy information from you. There's a number of things we brought up today that we'll be looking forward to. Obviously, our schedule. Yeah. It works. I mean, we meet every twice a month. So if we try to stay with our regular schedules, it's always the first Tuesday and third Tuesday of the month. Which would be January 4th and or the 18th. It's definitely not the 4th. That's a little too quick. Oh, it's too bad. We're open out there. Yeah, the 18th would be a possibility. But I can talk to all the parties and get back to, we can talk to Matt, see how that works with some of the things that you need to do. I mean, being the holidays too, where it's hard to really think about us doing anything until after the first, to get a team together. Because there's always someone who's out on vacation or gone to visit their grandmother or whatever. So the 18th might be possible. I'll tell you what, why don't we do the 18th? We have to set a date. We have to set a date, so otherwise we have to re-warn it. And then you have to have two weeks notice and all that other stuff. Yeah. So let's, let's. 18th. It's February to be safe. 1st, February 1st. Yeah, we could go February 1st. Sure. I won't be here. I'll be out in Colorado with a car, I don't know. Well, let's try for the 18th then, we'll try to get at least as many of the elements done and hopefully if we can't get it all done, we can get it down to just one or two items to remain. If we have to come back, you know, get it for a while. If the 18th doesn't work, just get back promptly and we'll, we'll have a meeting on that date and we'll just simply adjourn to another date. We have had special meetings as well. Yeah, I'm not trying to encourage that. I understand that. So Tom, when would the submission be in for the 18th of January? There's no regulatory requirement. This board likes to have stuff about a week before meetings. Okay, that's the problem. We need a week to have an opportunity to review it. Given our other schedules and emails. So, recess to the 18th. I'll make that motion that we resuscitate the 18th. Second? Second. And discussion of that motion. All in favor of that motion, please say bye-bye by saying aye. Aye. So we'll resuscitate that date. That date does not work out in terms of submittals and getting things done. Please be in touch with Tom and we can work around that. Yep, we'll talk to Berlin Mall folks. We'll talk to Matt and we'll, shortly we'll determine whether or not we can meet that date. Now I can always participate remotely but it's just not really functional. I get to see my grandchildren out there once a year, you know, so. Yep. This would not be a high priority. Well, thank you very much. Well, thank you all. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you. Thank you for coming out. I think it's a very good presentation. I think we got some things to work on here. I just, I commend the team for what you've done. Thank you. Thanks, gentlemen. Thank you very much. Thanks, everyone. Good job. Thank you. All right, thank you. Bye. Carl, okay. Mr. Starle, how are you doing? He went off to her. How are you? Good. Good. That's how I miss your poker face. We got a couple of things here we want to do before we call it quits tonight. We have minutes. Mm. Those are the minutes of our meeting of. Yeah, I'm. November 2nd, I believe? No. November 2nd? I should write it down on this thing here. 16th, November 16th, yes. And there were a number of comments on that. I think Christie's already cleaned up these comments of mine. What's the statement, Christie? Yeah, I think he did. I'm pretty sure I did. Yeah. That's good. That's good. That's good. Most notable is that the tour did not make some of these motions that he's claiming people have made. Not from the ICU that night, so. The tour wasn't here, but you did think, yes, you did make those changes. I think he changed it. Yes, he did. Yeah. So I'm looking for a motion to approve the minutes as amended. I move to approve the minutes of, when is it? November 2nd? November 16th. 16th, November 16th. As amended. As amended. Because all our suggestions prior to this meeting today are simply suggestions given to the recording secretary. You really have to make changes at the meeting to be taken to be correct. Yeah. We need a second, Mr. Chairman. We have a second. I can't. Oh. Yep. Okay. All those in front of that motion, please stand by and say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. And we approve the minutes as amended. Does one want to have a deliberate session tonight? No. No. Oh. It's pretty clear to me. Too late enough for you? It's almost a majority, isn't it? Clearly a vocal majority. Yeah. I think we need to, do we? No. I think there are thoughts or questions that we'd like to share with the applicants team. We might want to think about sharing them amongst ourselves and deciding how to proceed with that. So. So. And what I do is suggest that it's a form of deliberation that we, any comes, that we have not conversed, discussed tonight with regard to the drawings that's on top of our list of things to do, we just let's share with each other and see if we need to pass it on. I think that's acceptable practice. So I'll just share it with you, but it should work. Okay. In that case, I want to take the motion to adjourn. So moved. Second. Most of them go in the second to adjourn. Second. Yeah. I got you, Polly. All those in favor of that motion, please say whatever you say. Hi. Hi. All right. And we adjourned and we thank you very much. Thank you everyone. Happy holiday. Thank you. Happy holidays.