 Hi, welcome to the All Things LGBTQ Interview Show where we interview LGBTQ guests who are making important contributions to our communities. All Things LGBTQ is taped at Orca Media in Montpelier, Vermont, which we recognize as being unceded indigenous land. Thanks for joining us and enjoy the show. Hey, everybody. My name is Susan Loin and I am a guest interviewer on All Things LGBTQ. All of them? All of those letters. Everything. Everything. And I'm here with Ashley Hall, who, full disclosure, I know. I think I can admit that I know you. It's true. I hope you're comfortable with that. Ashley, I would love to share their pronouns, but they don't know what they are. Yeah, you guessed it. Good as mine. That's a thing. And I love you for that. It is fun because you're non-committal, but it's, but go on. It's a fun puzzle in English to try to escape using pronouns. It's also, I heard you say earlier, really fun to watch the discomfort in other people. Sometimes. When they stumble. It's a delicious thing. It's just, I love, it's kind of a mixture of chadenfreude and like adoring the intention that's clearly being shown. I love that. I love that. I appreciate that because as someone that stumbles over pronouns. You give me that look. Yeah. You know, you're doing now. Anyway, everything's a little bit itchy. So do as you will. As long as you mean well. I'm fine. Yes. What's that song from Avenue Q? Everybody's a little racist, but everybody's a little whole. Oh, that one? Yeah, that. Okay. So I'm curious if you have many fine talents, I must say. Have anyone you from, I guess, but tonight we're here to talk about acting, if you'd like. And you also, so we could stray into other topics, but I'd like you to tell our audience a little bit about how you first became involved with acting, sort of your journey of acting. Yeah. The first show I was in was Late Snow at the Chandler as part of the Vermont Pride Theatres. Kind of, how many years were they? I think for 10 years or so. 10 years. Yeah, it was one of the last years, right? I think it was tonight. And fun fact, that's how we met. It is. Yeah. It was what, four? Five people in the show. Yeah, it was a pretty small. Five people in the show. And we shared the opening lines of the opening scene and the opening lines of my theater crew. And we go, oh, nice. And we carpooled. I think that was who did. That's what sealed the deal for me. That's when I knew, you know, you have that feeling like people are meant to be in your life. Okay. We're going over Roxbury Gap and we're carpooling and we're running lines, which I'm not remembering. It's trying to be this. Mm-hmm. And I think that's how we first connected. Yeah, we just have to address. So tell our folks a little bit about what bride theater in that experience means, like to people in the acting community, the importance of. Sure. Well, I think it's just really important to have, I mean, safe spaces kind of become a buzzword in the past couple of years, but this has become politicized. But it's nice to know from the outset that the thing that you enjoy is going to be a possibility for you in a space. And that you're going to be respected and, I don't know, be able to express yourself in a way that is not going to be held against you or withheld from you. Yeah, people got to share a bunch of their stories and the stories of clear playwrights and I mean, I kind of came in at the tail end, but the shows that I saw and the shows that I heard about, it was, it was, it was really neat. Yeah, it was a good thing. And yes, something about that, I mean, theaters around Vermont are, I think, getting better about being open and intentional about trying queer stories and, you know, kind of allowing community members into their midst. But it was nice to have it be so intentional and so set aside and at the forefront of kind of their mission. I love that. That's that was my experiences. It was carved out as a festival, you know, highlighting, attributing, you know, kind of gay playwrights and also gay actors who otherwise struggled sometimes to find roles, which is a good segue into you and I have had a lot of colleagues nations around how gendered and binary some directors are and how frustrating that can be as an actor who feels that they have a lot to offer, but but directors can can really have narrow ideas about who they want to cast. So tell us a little bit about it. Especially like on a community theater level. Not that we're necessarily behind the times, but it's just people are more apt to follow the the the character descriptions and and what's what's set out in in a script rather than feeling like they can branch out. Yeah, it's it's been tough. You read a script and you connect with a character and you you audition for that character and then to be met with either just a slammed door or a oh cute. It's cute that you want to get that you want to play a man. Are you sure you're gonna you want to audition. Yeah, that's disheartening and it's gotten less and less but yeah a lot of disappointment especially to have I mean I started acting in 2019 right before the world shut down and then to have had yeah roles like turned down for you right after that like it's just heartening to be so new to something and so passionate about it and I think I'll write at it and then you know think that you know you really dive into the character and make strong choices in an audition and then don't get the chance to actually explore or delve into that character and then to see who does get cast and it's it's sometimes there's genuine talent don't get me wrong but but a lot of times it's it's use someone with a voice that's low enough or a chest that's flat enough or someone who can you know just fit the the vanilla vision that is set forth in the character descriptions which is yes and I think you and I also had this conversation which I appreciate about you is I remember venting to you on this very topic and sharing with you my level of frustration and making this proclamation that I'm just going to start auditioning for male parts yeah like that's going to be my my gig and and I did get cast in several shows yeah in a male presenting type role and uh I was like really cool liberating for me so I'd love you to tell us a little bit about your experience on that are you finding though that in those roles you're you're cast outright or you're cast because there's not enough men in the in the auditioning oh that's a great question I mean I'd like to think I beat out a couple of men but but usually there are a lot more women in here so I can think of I don't want to name names because we're trying we're trying to but let me just say that in how to play I was in had 16 women auditioned for four female roles and two men auditioned for four male roles so we'll do the math there so when I said hey you know via via Facebook or chat or whatever it was like I'll play a guy yes they said sure so I'm trying to kind of reclaim the gender thing and get away from that whole binary thing but but I want to I'd love for you to tell us about your experience with our town because that to me was a coming together that was purely your talent this had nothing to do with gender so tell us more about that uh our sound was a production was it wasn't 22 it's two summers ago yeah some of them for last right sure uh still production filled with value players uh alumni yes that's our home theater for listeners uh in weightsfield vermont yes uh directed by michael howlin and uh I didn't know who I wanted to audition for but you know I did like the character of george gibbs and additions I don't know how many people auditioned or who auditioned stotas um just individual individual going in by yourself yeah it's really nerve wracking but uh nerve wracking yeah yeah I don't for whatever reason uh michael uh cast me in the world of george gibbs whatever you think you're amazing but it was it was it was really great and it was I don't know it it was a lot it was it was kind of it felt like an honor and then it was terrifying and there was all this grappling with like I'm not what Thornton Wilder had in mind for this role uh audiences aren't going to buy this like the cast is just humoring me um like how real is this performance type of a deal but something that uh michael really uh impressed upon us is that like your character especially in a show like our town where the characters are kind of like blank slates uh it's it's so important for the actors to bring who they are into the character that they're playing and that's kind of what's made the the show so timeless is that the actors who are portraying these these timeless roles uh are able to bring who they are and and and put it into the play and so I was terrified but I leaned into that and it was yeah it was a it was a good show it was a it was a great show it was an underattended show but it was really really really meaningful yeah and just uh I ended up joining the cast yeah kind of last night of at the last minute and I was so impressed I just you know had kind of a walk on part but the amount of effort that everybody put into yeah you know living those roles and one of the things that I was fascinated by is kind of a latecomer there was no there are no props there's not a see that so it's just you yeah you really have to interpret that character yeah and I remember you throwing like throwing a bait catching a baseball and throwing imaginary things or yeah I think stage direction is is uh George um careens have hazard lead on main street or something yes so you were doing this kind of yeah well tell me a little bit about how important it was to have michael as a director uh and what his sensibility was yeah uh michael howler and it's just it's so evident as as a queer actor uh when you have when you have a director who's part of the community like you can have staunch allies who who will do their best to well intended well they're well intended like not nothing anyone does in this state I think is malicious um it's ignorant definitely uh and misguided you know the extra mile in the wrong direction yeah uh but it's it just becomes so evident when you have a director who is part of the community who realizes and recognizes and identifies with the plight of queer actors in in the state um and then who loves the material that they're directing uh and yeah no I just felt very taken care of in that production yeah I mean we were talking a little bit um earlier about how different it is as a member of the queer community to have a director that's also a member of that community so you know you and I have both head roles of traditional binary clang that straight men in situations and when you as you said even when even well intended yeah straight allies politically correct lefties you know liberal thinking people think oh isn't it cute that you're doing this role they still don't have that sensibility yeah you know that that the rest of us do in the community and so when you stumble across a director that really understands our community and understands all those layers yeah now I'm you know now I'm going to become male presenting and I'm going to do these things but knowing your sensibility and and relating to that and knowing what it's like I think you were saying earlier to be an outsider like having that lens to direct a play and having you tap into those pieces of the character I think is amazing and I love Michael anyway shout out to Michael yeah so many shout out to Michael if you can work with him please Michael Halloran dot com or whatever right Michael he does vocal lessons he does vocal lessons he's amazing but just now operators are standing by just the trust the trust that he gives to his actors to he trusts that you have identified with the character and seen something in them and that you are going to be able to tap into something in yourself and be able to bring that to the forefront to portray this and just to experiment you know yeah you know he's just such a giving person to say like I don't know what do you think and then of course you know with me he did like he did at one point he's raining you back in like oh that that was too much he did at one point give me the point give me the the note that I needed to uh I needed to dial up my inner entitled white boy oh yeah okay was that hard for you? See that's that's acting yeah so I was thinking about this like you and I have both played male roles but you know to channel privilege when you know there are many areas of our life for me as children though I've been George Gibbs I've been Linus for help yeah help yeah yeah well so tell us about Charlie Brown that was I I was I loved that showing but you know you know you know who my Charlie Brown was you were channeling you know who much you know who my Charlie Brown was yes yeah it was it was Michael we should get Michael on here we should get Michael on here he is amazing anyway uh that was up in Fairfax uh and again uh Linus who I love I was Linus I I made full disclosure I shouldn't tell people I was a thumbsucker okay that's true uh so I loved Linus I loved the security blanket yeah love that yeah yeah it was fun uh it was I had I done music yeah I did Oliver prior to that but oh he was one of my first musicals um but yeah no he was just in production again uh my director uh a musical that I I you know it's got some nostalgia factor yeah and I really liked it yeah I'm finding that if if I care deeply about a show and I can find it directed somewhere even far afield uh directed by someone who's in in this community uh they'll at least give me the time of the day and hear me out and let me like you know give me a give me a chance in the audition room yeah uh yeah which is huge yeah and it's not always something that's extended it's huge um yeah I mean I think that's part of the reason why I think we continue to do theater is can we present these stories in a way that's a little different than yeah than the the normative gender normative blah blah blah bullshit stuff yeah um yeah so tell me about big question no yes continue tell me a little bit about when you think about this is all interrelated the state of theater here in Vermont for queer folk and and you know what if anything do you see changing in the next you know a couple years what has been your experience it's interesting I've been fairly I mean selective with the shows that I go out for you know I've got to care about it uh I've got to know that I've got a chance in the audition room um but I've been noticing in looking around to different theater companies um at least more of an attempt to to um or an awareness of gender neutral or indifferent casting uh to identities other than you know cis straight male cis straight female uh and an openness to you know maybe more progressive uh plays and pieces of media um audition forms have changed the way that they present their language and their their character descriptions and their casting calls which progress is progress uh some of it and some of it is is um and then the perhaps some lip service and to get people in the door um perhaps um they write it and it's even within one form it's because they have to because they have to probably yes uh and it's sometimes it's just very evident it's like oh I'm not meant to be here um there's some we're doing it very well um yeah we are talking about this I think uh the other day around you I think you were saying you could speak for yourself I will I'll let you do that but I remember you saying the other day that you'd rather have people be kind of straight up oh yeah tell me I don't have a chance to like not not so much homophobic yeah that's too much but you would rather have people be really clear at the outset that I will not cast oh yeah folks in different gendered roles that that they're not you know if they're not presenting or biologically or whatever the definitely politically correct word is you know that the people yeah clear is good versus well even if you can do anything you can be president oh except for the fact that we're going to describe audition for any role that you feel drawn to except you have to this and you have to this and you have to this it's just that's not that's that's it's two different things um yeah and also saying uh you know you and I have both that look I don't know you're like leaning you're freaking me out a little uh you and I both had the experience where the director will say to us uh is there anything else anybody wants to read and you sort of raise your hand and pick every role I put on my audition form that you didn't ask me to read for because you believe me to be female there's biologic whatever there's something freeing when people are aware of the biases that they have yes and are just outspoken with it I think that's a lot of money a dick just be a dick and get on with it and I'll find it uncertainty I've had in my entire life it's just not knowing where people stand with certain things not that they're necessarily like malicious people or like against anything it's just that they are not outspoken to the positive side of things to the point where you feel comfortable even bringing it up right yeah and we've had that experience and and you certainly have driven for parts that that appeal to you as have I yeah that if you can't find something again not mentioning names in a show it's your intrigue and we could and we could but we're not going to dish that's another that's episode two that's that's yes the rule of that is the rule of community theater don't burn those bridges um but let's just say we've both had the experience of being discriminated against in our passions towards theater because of people's perceptions of traditional gender roles yeah that's fair to say right yeah so now good good segue into tell me about your experience at the prom and let me first say lyric the prom rock star went to see you you were fabulous thanks uh and great tell us a little bit about the show itself and what your role was and and and I was in the tiniest unmiked corner of the adult ensemble but you rocked it even at backstage I knew you were there I was singing in the wings um but I was having a ball and a ball because prom maybe a disco ball um yeah the prom centers around this girl Emanolan who wants to take her girlfriend to prom and the homophobic pta in ed twitter indiana disagrees and some misguided but well-intentioned uh horrible Broadway stars come to try to help and just end up rocking everything up uh in a way and then they help yeah but uh the so the prom so many queer people in the cast it was fantastic such a great storyline though so gay affirming and yeah and so like pronouns were were uh accommodated and and asked for and respected uh and consent was at the forefront of everything uh just it was such an inclusive and diverse and welcoming uh cast nice uh and then most of us are playing homophobes on stage so sweet yeah we got to I got to be the homophobic parents from my you know perhaps hometown so that was probably a little close that was a little probably triggering for you a little close to the bone but having to pretend to be some of the people that maybe tormented you as a youth and tormented me they just didn't teach me anything yeah yeah the irony being that uh Caitlyn Kinnan who played the role on on Broadway of Emanolan was from from your school uh her school but yeah my area school district yeah yeah um but uh she was schooled and didn't have that issue and then I was public schooled in it yeah it was quite alarming in the audience to see it somebody aren't knowing you knowing and loving you as our friends do we were yeah I thought I was a shoe in for uh like queer teen or homophobic teen perhaps uh I kind of do the like middle school boy thing yeah I mean yeah I mean I could I totally expected you be cast as a high schooler but no but no homophobic no suddenly now you're adults like all these years where you've been trying to audition as an adult you look too young and now here you are saying I'm I'm I'm in I'm gonna be in I'm gonna be it's all right yeah I'm gonna be a football player yeah I'm gonna be a home yeah it was fun uh but yeah that was uh that was amazing yeah just existing in that space in the cast too much talent for the wrong good yeah I hope to be back on your shows gosh we actually uh you and I went to the musical karaoke up at the comedy club and that was so cool because the whole like half the cast was there yeah and of course as soon as the first person went up and sang I was like I'm out I'm gonna no I know no that's a hug and I sang and then was like you know I'm kind of hold my own no I have some video that I did find you were amazing all right but um yeah just a really they just seemed very warm and inclusive and I've been I've been asking you this yeah how were they really backstage like no but like really yeah yeah so I mean sometimes it's the pop everybody does with pronouns or with uh like certain things but the number and you've got a couple people who effusively come up and apologize but you it was just I don't know well you know you had people holding people accountable you had people uh in their defense actually yeah they're gonna get the pronouns wrong because you changed them I don't change anything I'm not all that I think you know good callback because people try to try to honor you we do we hold you in high regard I've never declared anything we ask you directly you don't answer we stumble and you laugh at us which I love about you and I'm just saying I love you um so what's next for you what do you what do you got on the docket for your next uh big production that we can all see we're all gonna come see lyrics doing newsies in the fall nice I'm gonna mention it because I don't want to jinx it but I'm really I'm hoping we're not that I'm hoping that their commitment to to what they did in in the the prom is going to hold hold true for future productions uh production teams change so like there's no guarantee yeah inclusivity uh that you're kind of indifferent casting just the respect the consent the everything uh I'm hoping that that holds yeah to my benefit and then and then you get some summer plans you're I know you're not going to be on stage but aren't you going to help yeah this will be my I mean hopefully I don't have a W9 yet but uh I need to talk to Marin uh Marinick and Dominic Dominick Spillane uh run uh created dirt road theater which is a youth uh well they don't just do youth things they do all do a lot of stuff they do improv and sketch comedy super talent in northfield yeah they've got their um they've got a fundraiser uh opening this weekend for their new space in northfield nice um and they're just super nice people yeah so hopefully be helping with their summer camp and uh some school productions and the light for people super talented and isn't there a summer show though oh yeah sorry you're really good at this I'm good at this I need to do this again just yeah uh I mean I'm not saying it's only to get me some dance training for my news these auditions but uh Valley players is doing uh spam a lot spam a lot which I'm excited for yeah we'll see we'll see that's the spirit it's been a week huh it's it has been a week thank you um and so the other thing we've got a couple more minutes uh if we could do a plug for both of us because that's how I roll sure as the narcissist that I am um I want to harken back to another another kind of seminal moment in our relationship here uh we wrote a little play together we did and it was right I think it was also like 2019 ish because it was right before the world ended wasn't it it was when um it was the beginning of COVID it was right it was because we were rehearsing for Alice we were rehearsing for Alice and Wonderland which you ended up being in and I ended up not being in uh because of though you were cast you it was cast the kids so it was when I was to be clear that I was cast as the white queen and then COVID and then nope and you look like a tampon tampon on a condom so good comfort but yeah anyway that's another story for another day but um you and I yes and you you were saying this earlier there was a bat in the valley players theater there was a bat we were sitting in the audience you want to chair myself on the floor tapping on your laptop waiting for the bat to like leave yeah all true uh and we and I think we had a moment together where we decided that we were going to write our own damn play because all of the things we've just talked about see we're coming full circle yeah the frustration of not having either gender neutral or non-binary roles and roles that we felt we could inhabit like truthfully you know like we can act straight I suppose or you know I can act like a woman if I have to but why would I want to and so we wrote this play kind of channeling ourselves kind of channeling ourselves and what I love about that but I think back on it is I remember writing this yeah I think he words out of my head on paper I was at the computer and I wrote you know all these things that I would say obnoxiously an extra my extra version and I and I like made up in my head I made up this whole character that was you know in my head was you and you're like I wouldn't say that you're like I wouldn't say that I wouldn't do that that's never that that ever happened Susan you got to change this and so we ended up sitting there together one night I remember like the the skirmish time I went off and yeah wearing my coat yeah it was cold it was cold it was it was so much fun so so tell people a little bit about what what was that play about and why was that special to us well it was called back to the line and it was imagine that there's a line of people getting coupled together like in relationships dating you get to the front of the line you're happy in love and off you go and Susan's character comes you know you always want to start the opening scene like in the middle right in the action so uh comes in just like barreling insults offstage at the people who are sending her to the back of the line being like you know I served my time like I deserve to be at the front like what what the heck uh and then we have this you know this heart to heart in the back of the line and you know things are discussed things happen yeah and uh it was kind of heartwarming yeah I love that for us a couple extra monologue sections but it's some significant monologues the gist of it was somebody literally said that to me one time that that I didn't deserve happiness because I hadn't I had a chance for happiness and I squattered I should interview them and that I needed to wait my turn to be happy again and I remember thinking like and I'm just in the back of the line just chilling out and I got nowhere and your character was great because it was very true to who you are yeah more chill and you know sort of hearing all the impact of this person who's over the top and uh you know we don't want to give away the ending because right you see the play because it's you know and it was just a little 10 minute play but I was you know I was really proud of us for making a statement about yeah what it's like to be that outsider and misunderstood you know well and if you have roles that you want to play or don't see yourself on stage like you know it's it's quite the talking point yeah you've got to go out and write the roles that you want to play but but to have actually done it it's like oh that is a thing we can do that yeah um and I hope that people in the community continue to do that yeah that's a great ending note do you have anything else you'd like to share with our audience not so much do it just do it go out and be you an act and audition for things that you want uh because those roles are out there yeah don't get disheartened if you're not uh asked for roles that you would like to be cast in uh ask questions reach out yeah yeah cool an audition for shows it's very fun it's super cathartic exactly and I want to thank you for being my guest you're welcome and now we must drink thank you everybody for listening have a great rest of your day bye as we continue to look at what are the lgbtq owned businesses and opportunities available to us I kind of stumbled across this a non-judgmental clothing optional campground yes here in Vermont in Greensboro Bend it is called the Vermont freedom campground and the people who run it are about to join us so please welcome Jeff and Craig to a first visit on all things lgbtq so welcome good morning good morning so what I'd like to start with is a little bit about who both of you are sort of some of your life experiences before starting to promote freedom campground and then we'll talk about the campground specifically life experience well I was the auto mechanic for 40 some years I um ended up in my career owning an auto repair shop um my so if I come to the campground I can get my car tuned up while I'm there I hated auto repair 45 years and I won't touch my own car anymore so um it was a purely a job that I did out of income not love very people would rather be anywhere besides the auto mechanic shop and so I I like it that I'm in a business now that people want to come to it what about you Craig I was previously in machine tool controls computer aided controls and then had a bed and breakfast and Racine I also had breakfast in Madison Wisconsin well there there are some of the people who watched this show who lived in that area what was the name of your bed and breakfast which one Madison or where Madison yes Madison Wisconsin was stony oak's bed and breakfast all right and Racine it was Lochnerian thank you okay so you had some experience with hospitality before you entered into running a campground which I appreciate is a whole different venue than a bed and breakfast so what made you decide a campground we were at a clothing optional campground in mat and maize of mani wisconsin called cedar hills and we started going there because my aunt sold us a camper at cheap because her husband wasn't physically able to use it we went to this campground and were put on a site and we never left that site for eight years um the first year we're there I told Craig that a day would come when I couldn't handle the crazy owner anymore and that we would have to leave and the day came and kind of coincided at the same time my employee walked in and said hey I want to buy your business and I couldn't refuse and so I started looking for campgrounds and I was googling campgrounds for sale and this place in Vermont came up and I am a person that leaps into things he's a person that's very cautious about going into things I had I had already in my mind bought it the day that I saw it on the internet uh he forced me to wait until the next spring when the snow was gone um my two experiences with Vermont my my how would I say it is uh the bob new heart yes um and I was mistaken that the slogan was Vermont is for lovers and it's actually Virginia is for lovers and I bought the place and the first mud season I said what the hell have I done and um it's gotten better every year I was gonna say there you know everyone associates Vermont with both fall and winter they totally don't know about mud season and stick season so we we have six seasons here in Vermont okay so you had really no relationship with Vermont until you purchased the campground no clue all right so the campground when it was being advertised and it's in Greensboro Bend which is you know a fairly remote area even by Vermont standards was it already a clothing optional campground was it merely a traditional campground you know what what was what was the real invitation to buying it it was a price that I could afford without ever having to have a customer on the property and it was a campground that was closed how long it had been closed before you bought it 15 years at least oh my goodness so Craig you were very good in giving the advice of we need to wait a little bit because you know maybe we'll we'll have a better opportunity here yes I we went out there and experienced it and we loved it right away well we went out December 3rd December 3rd in Vermont there's three and a half feet of snow we tried walking out on the property and couldn't get more than about 50 feet into it because we were exhausted and so at that time we thought it was in the middle of nowhere and then once we purchased it we found out we're on a shortcut to Lindenville and it's busier than I would have ever thought that road would be okay that there can be an advantage to that okay so let's talk a little bit about the campground itself how large is it and if I looked at your website correctly you have a swimming pool but most people associate Greensboro with Lake Caspian you're not on Lake Caspian five miles away okay so that's close so how many acres do you have for the campground the entire property is 21.6 acres but only eight of it is campground 13 is deer sanctuary we have to maintain that 13 acres as deer sanctuary as part of the act 250 plan okay now are and you have hiking trails well we're in the process of developing trails through it yes and and how many camp sites do you have I understand there's RV hookups and maybe cabins available as well yeah we have right now we have three cabins we have two campers we're getting two more cabins next summer and then as far as RV sites there's like 36 and then there's probably I mean 10 spaces there's probably 20 or 30 or so it just all you know tents can go anywhere basically correct I was gonna say that's that sounds like a lot of sites and the opportunity for having a fair amount of people there at any time well the big thing that thrilled me about the places it's got 1500 amp electrical service it's got a well that pumps into a cistern with 1500 gallon capacity and then a booster everything is top notch as far as the mechanicals the campground we came from in Wisconsin had been wired by a farmer using 14 gauge going 350 feet and so if you've ever tried to run an air conditioner at the end of 350 feet of 14 gauge wire it doesn't work very well I don't think it'll work at all but okay this place has got electric cables as thick as my fingers and it is all top notch mechanicals it's like a small city okay so yeah is there electrical and water for the tent sites as well as yeah okay for a Vermont campground that's impressive because there are a fair amount that advertise them themselves as being rustic which means you're coming with your tent and whatever you can carry in if it's not battery operated or a little propane tank you're out of luck but no there's outlets everywhere there so what has been the response to Vermont Freedom as being a clothing optional campground well the first year that we opened I had people stopping and asking me if we were opening the campground and everybody that stopped was absolutely elated they said we are so sick and tired of driving past this place and watching it die every day and you know some people had actually changed their route to work because they were so sad looking at the campground it just was dead and now I mean the difference between when we arrived and now you can tell that the place is alive and it gets just more beautiful every year so what what when it people were excited because the campground was coming back what was the response when they found out it was an over 18 clothing optional campground well I know that the one guy after I told him that we were open he said I handed out flyers brochures for this place when it opened in 2004 and he said I am just so excited to it to be open again and I said oh and by the way we're clothing optional and he went oh wow that's cool um our next door neighbors the ones that are gun happy um even they um I remember warn their kids were 10 or if two boys 10 and 12 and I remember him saying oh my boys will really like that they can they can see sneak through the woods and think they're getting a cheap peek at you know right um if you've read the articles um the very first article that we were written about one of the select board members um was asked about um and and he started listing off how this season has black flies and this season has this burden and this season has this and this I'm thinking oh my god I hope he doesn't work for the travel department of Vermont um you know there he's no one not a single negative response from anybody you know Vermont it's legal to be naked that's correct as as long as you were not as long as you do not deliberately disrobe in public or you're doing something to try and get attention you could walk nude and we have an annual tradition both in Burlington and Montpellier with a nude bike ride that at times has been a fundraiser for other events I want to circle around really quickly back to a comment that you had made or referencing the select board members references to our seasons our black flies and mosquitoes the problem at the campground because if I'm choosing to come and be clothing optional do I need to shower indeed before I get out of my tent well I will tell you that Wisconsin has way more biting flies than Vermont does okay as way more mosquitoes than Vermont does um the insects are really not a big issue I mean they can be at various times annoying but usually for a couple hours here or a couple hours there uh no we don't have to no one is bathing in deep and um no it's really not an issue okay I want to talk more about who comes to the campground because your website and your Facebook page both really promote if you're comfortable being around other people who have chosen to be clothing optional and you are respectful of those people if you're respectful of the other campers we want you to come spend time with us so who is it that is choosing to come to promote freedom campground well I mean it's everybody we have gay we have straight we have more lesbians attend in Vermont than attend in Wisconsin okay more younger lesbians in in Vermont than in Wisconsin um and here we never saw very rarely ever saw any lesbians especially young women and at the campground we have quite a few that attend the straight women are always a little leery and you know they think they're going to be the only woman on the property and you know I try and I you know people call up and ask who's there you know who and I don't get into that I mean if coming there specifically for that reason then stay home yeah if you're coming there to camp and have a good time and and maybe interact with somebody else then come on along but I'm not there to provide you a stable of whatever it is you're looking for um yeah I get into some really I hesitate a lot of conversations I don't I don't get into I was gonna say and I appreciate that that it's like wait a minute this is about your experience this is about camping I'm very forth forthcoming in what it is that we can provide you know don't don't ask me to provide a service so but do you do you host or sponsor events that I might want to be looking at and consider if I'm coming to spend time at Vermont Freedom we nor well on all the holidays we we usually have well we always have a dance we always have a potluck we um generally we'll do three drag shows per year um we um yes so we do we we do have events but a lot of campgrounds will do something every single weekend uh-huh I don't I will never do something every weekend if it's a holiday weekend you can guarantee that there's going to be um music uh a dance a potluck there possibly will be a drag show something like that but as far as every weekend there's a lot of weekends where I tell well I can't remember I had a great response a guy I have people come up and they expect me to have an event every weekend and I will respond with there's nothing but the trees that weekend or or something like that um we have nothing absolutely nothing and that's what you're going to experience when you get there's trees um you know the people there that kind of as I say so if I go on to the website there is a place where events would be listed so I could take that into consideration otherwise I should bring a good book with me and maybe some music yep well plus there's a lot of trails and lakes and things to go to country farms the whole experience of Vermont I mean Caspian Lake is five miles away you can go walk on any road around there it's very beautiful you know there's um yeah there's just so many I don't know I guess you know if you're coming for a party every weekend you're not going to find it you're coming for the solitude of a rural area in Vermont and a camping experience you know that that should be your expectation as a child we were not allowed to take a tv a radio a telephone anything and and that was our camping and you know so I guess kind of like I say I you know a holiday weekend you can expect there's going to be a party on Saturday but the rest of the weekend no you're gonna while you'll swim or sit in the hot tub or whatever oh there's a hot tub as well as the swimming pool yeah we have three of them they're um seven person hot tubs so there's three of those very good I was gonna say I think my experience growing up was the same as yours I grew up in a family with three brothers so what our parents did is they took us truly wilderness camping for most of my early years and then for month on our campground started putting up lean twos which for us was a luxury you mean I don't have to stand here and put the tent up and wonder if you know if it's canvas and I touch the sides you know the water's going to leak through if it rains but so other than the most recent incident the community response to you it sounds as though has been positive I every single person that I told that first year we were opening and told them that we were clothing optional had absolutely no problem with it and I also made the statement because there is a school bus that drives past our property twice a day and I said I will not have nudity up in the front there along the road when the school bus is going by and one of the parents stopped down and said thank you I appreciate that so going along that theme the campground itself is well-defined so that if I'm someone who is choosing to camp there and I'm choosing to be clothing optional I sort of know this is where this is where I have a degree of privacy or shared privacy and this is when sort of the public can see what's going on right if they what was kind of funny was that I had this gentleman that had never been at a clothing optional campground and he must have asked me 30 times where he could go where he couldn't go all that kind of stuff and I told him I said you could walk down the street if you want to and I the next year I heard from the guy who does the town roads he said that one of a gentleman was walking down the road naked and that Warren had talked with him and I said no way I said no way that guy had no way with it and sure enough he was walking down the road naked outside the campground and Warren the next door neighbor talked to him and you know and you know he had no problem with it and and Warren says you guys well in fact all of our neighbors around us is up for a couple say you guys are a delightful addition to the neighborhood because it gives us something to talk about thank you for being the source of you know community a community dialogue yeah so so with that thank you for spending this time with us good luck with the Vermont Freedom Campground going forward we'll make sure both the website and the facebook page is posted the one question I didn't ask you that as we're concluding if you could please clarify when does your season start and when does it end May 1st is the opening date every year the ending date is generally the last week of October okay here was the 23rd um I think next season it's like the 21st or so I don't know where I like to get or whatever but it's the last week of October all right and if you want to be alone October is the month to come because very few people except for the seasonals are there in October all right so thank you good luck going forward and I'm looking forward to bringing you back to get updates of so how's it going all right thank you come and visit yeah stop over thank you for joining us and until next time remember resist