 What a crowd good to be here Christian. Thanks for having me. Yeah, how are you doing? Terrific. It's the first time slush. Okay. You tried to pull me here for four years now It's finally there and as what people say it's a Dark cold and very big and everybody's here. It's really exciting. Yeah, everybody's here. It's important thing. Yes Good, but you like it so far. Yeah, it's awesome. I mean, it's really good after COVID everybody's coming together the ecosystem investors Startups very exciting. Yeah, well great for coming. Thanks for coming here We should talk about trader public and I know a lot about the companies that have been, you know Part of your partner viewers for four years, but talk talk to talk to us a little bit about trader public What is it really sure so? Trader public basically is a savings platform Meaning we empower people across 17 European countries to invest in capital markets You can do self-directed investing or you can set up a savings plan meaning you subscribe to a monthly installment into a big basket of assets We do so because we believe that many people especially young people want to build up for their own pension Want to save and build wealth and we help them to do so we started in 2019 and are now present in all markets including Finland Fantastic, so it's a savings platform. You can trade you can save long-term ETFs And now you launched bonds as well having to yes So I mean on paper many people confuse it with Robinhood, right? It looks very similar. You can trade and invest stocks commission-free But what people don't understand is that the market in Europe is quite different because it was never hard for people in Europe to invest short-term capital markets to Do short-term trading what we do basically is we empower people to save Recurringly continuously and therefore create wealth and so we hope that over the next 30 years many people will have a sufficient pension with us Fantastic, so that's trade republic savings platform leading in Europe You're doing fantastic. How big are you really today? Well, so the company has grown very Very fast today. We're over 600 employees operating 17 markets And over the years we've grown to be the largest savings platform in Europe meaning There's millions of people across those 70 markets saving with us and what's important 65% of our customers are first-time investors meaning people who have never invested before in the lifetime And they starting this savings journey with us and then going back again a little bit before 2019 And when I met you you've been working on it for three or four years You had we're just about to come out of the blocks. You had funded the company quite roughly was 75% owned by A seed investor and you were trying to raise money. How come you spent four years? You know preparing yourself for launch and how come you were in that situation and what happened? So I think we're a quite unusual start-up story I myself studied philosophy so I've no freaking clue how I ended up here And we started the company 2015 with his vision of building a platform a bank which empowers people to save Now if you're 25 years of age and you run around Staying to investors. I can found a bank with 25 Everybody thinks you're crazy. So for four years. We had over 200 investor meetings We almost never saw the partner, right? We almost never see a term sheet So we would need to bootstrap the company and during that time we raised multiple angel rounds So we've been bankrupt almost every quarter and then doing another angel round an angel round an angel round To that point where we sold 65% of the company to an angel investor And then when we got the banking license and we started to operate all of a sudden the VCs They came along and said, okay, maybe now we can talk so Back then then you guys invested other investors invested and Today, yeah, we raised over 1.3 billion years in funding from that early days But basically we've seen a lot of the honest and early work of a small startup But you spent those four years so said those are really important for you to get the banking license How comes it takes four years and what's particular with that and what? How important were those four years for you for the rest of building the fintech success that you've had today? I mean, I need to be honest. I think back then We thought it would take a year to get a banking license maybe 18 month So if you would have told me it would take four years, I would never do it again, right? That was a horrible time was a very long time, but obviously in hindsight that was the foundation for success because by Getting the banking license. We developed a very firm and deep understanding about the regulatory environment About the business model about things you can and cannot do and at the same time We've been able to invest very very deeply into our infrastructure So we've built an entire core banking system in-house because we just had no money to buy something else and I think today that what makes trade public may be unique that we have an own license and own Banking structure infrastructure and so basically fully independent from any partner That means we can move very very fast in developing new features and through that platform You've been able to sort of launch in 17 euro countries basically as well exactly So we started in Germany for the first 18 month and then little by little would grow to France Italy Spain and all the remaining markets And then still you're now developing the local products. You want to be techs easy in those countries? It's a very long journey, but with a platform we're having in the licenses. It's something you can actually do And then raising 1.3 billion. It's not an easy feast. We I think we invested we're the eight million round in 2019 Tell us about that story. We got that done and then that was early 2019 and then Covid came and what happened then you could either go either way Yes, so I mean it's always important to emphasize. We saw the first four years where nobody would touch you So we had a kind of a good understanding that We need the right investors for long-term and then luckily we got creandum We got project a and the series a round then in 2019 even before covered the company was doing it very well and we were growing very fast and then in 2020 Covid hits and obviously many more people thought about investing and the company will grow even faster and then slightly before Covid really came and the the pandemic hit and lockdowns happened We've been able to raise a series B round led by excel and funds funds And that was I think basically the last business meeting I had before before the lockdowns And then during the next two years the company would again grow Quite quite healthy and quite fast so we could do a series C round led by sequoia And even last summer we did another extension by Ontario teachers pension plan one of the largest pension funds on earth To now really prepare ourselves for what next? And are we allowed to say that we you're profitable today? No, as you know, we don't share numbers broadly But we're very focused of running a healthy business and come from a very rural boring part of Western Germany And so I think since day one we've been Incredibly focused of building something which is long-term sustainable Yeah So covid hit and you skate. I don't know what how many customers you you got every day at that time I mean it's really catapulted the company for everybody was trading at home and wanted to launch savings accounts But how did you manage to manage that with remote work and and and getting so many customers on board? So I remember very vividly We've been growing very fast and then so we've been hundred thousand customers after the first year of operating and that was March 2020 and so as a company of 30 people you then do a small party You get a cake and we had these balloons you get like with the 100,000 big silver balloons And there wasn't a Friday and then over the weekend the German government would say there's a lockdown and then during the next I think four or five months the company would grow from hundred thousand customers to one million just in four months it was incredible fast growth and Yeah, those balloons the hundred thousand they basically stated the office and it looked a bit like you know It's Chernobyl. Yeah, I know like people just left the desk and went home And there's been always a reminder about how far we've come in those four four four months But obviously it is as an entrepreneur a pretty wartime situation because You're growing fast. You're hiring people people on lockdown and so you learn a lot about yourself and about the business But you did I think you what you did before a COVID shutdown you did a simulation I heard wasn't that something you did to to to make sure you could work under remote conditions So I'm blessed with a co-founder Thomas who is incredibly great engineer And he's always incredibly concerned about the geopolitical situation. So when COVID hit I remember he just came to the office with one of those big military great air masks And that's why I recognized. Oh my god. This might be something and then actually yes, we did a few simulations Back then just sending the company home for one day and seeing how it worked And that was very good in hindsight because it prepared us for what would come You're 600 people today and when we invested I think you were 20 or something like that and you scaled Marvellously, how can you as a founder what were some of the Insights and inflection points during growing the team from 20 to 600 scaling during COVID Regulatory environment success and you know millions of users on board it like what I were the changes in so maybe hiring or Style of management that you sort of went through during these years So we've been yes 2030 employees and then as a company would grow we would basically hire a lot of people So at some point I think we had 50 or 100 people joining a month that it was a very fast-growing period And during that time obviously you want to hire senior executives, right? People who have seen that kind of organization already and I remember a thing when we had like 40 or 50 People and we just did the excel and it found us fun round I think we thought to ourselves were pretty good already and then we hired the first Executive came from Netflix and I remember the first meeting and I was really blown away because it Completely resetted the benchmark for me what great looks like what good looks like right and so then over that time would bring in more and more executives In hindsight I would describe that time a bit like poverty as a leader I think you need to be real very vulnerable about the fact that if you're growing fast You do not know which kind of leader you are you do not know what's your management style And so as everybody likely knows from from themselves poverty is a very painful phase where you're trying out different things So I remember one time we would be Amazon and everybody would write memos The next time we would be Netflix and a lot of freedom responsibility Everybody would read that book and maybe someday I was wearing a turtleneck and I felt like Steve Jobs So we did like a lot of those phases and the truth is After three four years of that You kind of build your own style in your own character, right? You define what is trade Republic? What is our culture and then you manage to build an employee brand you manage to attract talent Which which up for that and then basically really the culture becomes very very strong, right? And today to a trader public is a very fast moving very intense culture in the city of Berlin And we're very very proud of the people who want to join such a company and then thrive in that Environment are you Steve Jobs now? I mean no luckily not no, but you're very product focused as a CEO Is is have you always been that way? well, so we believe What's important as an early company and still is today's built a product which is able to grow Virally right so the best marketing is a free marketing you get in the lunch table at the family at home, right? So when somebody comes as well, I'm using that product It's so exciting and so we've been on the very first day and clearly focused about creating those moments of happiness Moments of excitement people will talk about and still till this very day We get more than 50% of our customers through word-to-mouse, right? So people are really promoting our trader public. So yes, I'd say the entire company including myself is incredibly product focused But I don't believe that's it's when you found a fintech because I think the the reason the fintech exists And is different and is better is its ability to translate regulatory requirements Into a great product which feels nice and neat and at the same time has an Efficiency in operating and efficiency in doing technology so you can do it at scale, right? So I think fintech can only be understood if you have this triangle like a regulatory requirements a great loving product and operational efficiency and we try to balance these things throughout the years and What I've noticed from from the board's perspective at least I think it is and I I You should confirm it. You have an extreme performance culture. I think in your company people are really delivering and and Shipping product and and and improving the the experience from the consumer all the time Which is really important for fintech companies, right if we're consumer. How are you instilling that performance culture? so yeah, as I said, I think you try out different cultures, right and Many people preach like this lose management and that's flexibility and that I think works well for for many companies And they go incredibly successful with it We found this not succeeding at rate of public at least not at this very stage So we we created a culture where we Promise only one thing to our employees That you do will do the best work in your career at rate of public So it will not be maybe the happiest place or the most fulfilling place But it will be the place where you work with the smartest people on the hardest problems and over the years We really owned this culture now. So yes We run an intense organization where people can get things done quite quickly So we have 14 different elements product elements And we do weekly business reviews like every single team checks in including myself visiting the meeting Why I had a great product leader from Revolute Marcel who's basically bringing that culture promoting it throughout the organization And that gave us a lot of trust in the organization and the people and helps us to be really Nimble and fast in delivering your features It's to turn to the regulatory side again. It's like a necessary evil or how do you look upon on that? Boffin is one of the toughest FSA. I mean regulatory authorities in Europe. You you got the banking license early You continue to have good relations with them. What's what has been essential there and managing growth during this these times Well, I think in hindsight I say I'd say regulation and and and and boffin it's like a love-hate relationship So obviously as an entrepreneur you're incredibly impatient You want to get things done super super quick and then regulation always gets in the way and make things muddy and and slow And you you you kind of don't like it and you sleep very badly sometimes So that's the hate part. But at the same time, I think you need to recognize the fact that Being in the club of being a bank operating and and getting the money of people is an incredibly big Mode and entry barrier for everybody else. We've seen that many US companies Failed to really conquer Europe or go into Europe because they would not really accommodate European regulation our understanding of how banking business should be built and I believe if you own this and if you built a very very strong muscle and making a regulatory things Your entry barrier mode you can build a very very valuable company, which is incredibly hard to replicate and I think That's one of the reasons why we've been able to raise so much money because we could promise to investors a fast-growing product Yes, but at the same time true entry barrier something which is incredibly hard to replicate for others And that is then very enticing for growth investors using the regulatory environment as a mode and then building great product on top of that Well, I think some of our of our late-stage investors that there's one thing to me, which I keep hearing in my head It's basically you go from zero to a unicorn to one billion valuation With the permission of the customer so you need great product market fit a product consumers laugh But you go from one billion to ten billion with a permission of the politicians Right so basically in order to really become a big financial institution to be really relevant You need to have a great relationship with regulators built a lot of trust that requires a lot of time And if they then give you the permission and we see everywhere fintechs who literally do not get this permission It's really a big entry barrier Speaking about the regulatory environment your one of your revenue sources is payment for order flow Which the European Union has banned until 2026 where we'll see how how that pass out But what how big of your revenue is is payment order flow and how do you look upon that kind of revenue as yes? Yeah, maybe maybe maybe to explain so Payment for the flow is a business model in brokerage where you get a revenue share from the exchange So if you would do a trade we route it to an exchange and then the exchange basically gives us something of the money They earn back that's something which is in the industry for now 30 years And almost every bank the banks you likely use is using payment for the flow But because of the success of new business models like ours There's been a lot of lobbyism against it from incumbents and so the European Union is right now contemplating In in changing the rules and maybe banning it that might happen in 2026 I mean, I believe it's a really pity for you a pity for me a pity for the investors because payment for the flow shows That retail trades do have a value and this value had not been honored for the last 10 20 years Because you were still paying high fees at your brokerage company and a company trader public showed that with payment for the flow You can basically give it to the people by having commission free investing now Lobbyism is lobbyism and as I said from 1 to 10 billion you need to have permission right and now Politicians get in the way and have an opinion on that and that is fine It's only representing a third of the revenue of trader public anyway But at the same time I don't believe that this money will go away because this money stays in the system And I believe during due to that law There's going to be change in the power between the exchange the issue are like black rock the Broker and the consumer and the good news is we're on your side And we represent millions of people across Europe and so we have a lot of let's say negotiating power To get that money on the right side of it and we will see how this evolves, but obviously it's a Very interesting thing to now be a voice in that conversation I've been myself very very times in in Brussels last 12 18 month to really insert the voice of you have written investors Into that conversation to to get a great deal out of it. Yeah, you're doing a great job there So payment order one third of your revenues We'll see how it goes Where how big is the opportunity you're asking you're going for you? I mean you're I mean savings is a huge part of Consumer right and she's etc. So it's it's going more than GDP basically so going market Very sticky model if you have your savings with the company you're right never switch. How big is that opportunity? So coming back again to the first four years right it was not only hard to tell people that I want to found a bank But it was already hard to tell people. Hey, I'm a German company and I actually do believe people going to trade stocks It's always hard to believe when you come from the Nordics, but basically us Germans we hate trading stocks We hate risks right with a very very tense relationship to it. And so actually eight out of ten people do not invest money But you see that through companies like trader public many first-term investors have now a different tendency and relationship towards investing They actually start investing Now if you zoom out and I think that's always the first slide in every pitch deck we're using since seven years Europe has the second highest GDP per capita on the world yet the lowest investment quota Underdeveloped industrialized nations globally so the real how much do you say of your income in equities? so only eight eight out of ten people are not investing right and That's really a scary and frightening figure if you look into the pension system Right. I mean the Nordics people are blessed with the texts incentivize stated and incentivize the private pension planning The same as in the UK and in America, but then if you go to continental Europe Germany France Italy Spain There's no such things. There's no tax benefits. No wrappers. No nothing. So people are Actually screwed because if they're just relying on the government pension They are will not having sufficient pension when they retire and a company a trader public is helping them to self-save So to your question, I think it's a gigantic opportunity because you look into the GDP You look into the low investment quota and if that's going to be filled because people are actually trying to solve the pension gap I think the numbers tell us it's one of the largest and fastest growing markets globally and As you know many incumbents in Europe have a hard time adapting to the future So we actually believe with trade public over the next 30 years We can craft one of the most significant financial institutions There are in Europe and empower millions of people to really build a private pension and on your products That how are you thinking about that medium term like today trading of stocks derivatives ETFs? You can create your own portfolio savings plan bonds Deposits you are you have 4% deposit you're offering you're actually cutting nothing in between and you're giving everything away at ECB Is that working for you? Yeah, so I think the the the ultimate promise we give you as a consumer that you get the best deal for your money What does it mean? Like whenever you choose to invest whenever you choose to make more out of your money? Trader public gives you The easiest fastest and cheapest way to invest So basically when the interest rate environment was turning and ECB decided to increase rates We've been actually the one of the first banks in Europe to pass through 2% interest rates Consumers without any restriction so you can just hit a button and get 2% Renewed that promise in September by now passing 4% to people. It's actually the highest interest rate across Europe right now And that obviously is a great promise. It creates viral growth and brings you many consumers many assets Now if you zoom out, I think the betton brought up butter product of trade public is a savings plan So you go to trade a public you set up MSC a world the world economy and your deposit hundred maybe 200 years a month and you do it over and over time and We basically created the category here so that product was already live in Germany But in the last three years, we doubled the market we doubled the market today Trader public has more than 50% market share and savings plans meaning we have more ETF savings plans in Germany than all other incumbent banks combined, right? So that's a fast trajectory and we believe Especially when people start very early in their life to save That's one of the best relationships in the French industry, which you can have with a human We're very happy to help them to to to get more money So the 4% attracts assets under management and in a new launch of investment the savings products on top of that To monetize them. Yes. No, of course I mean I think people come because they see it's a great deal for the money So they come they bring the assets and then we help them to make more out of the assets To diversify to invest a couple of markets We see that people who come after the interest rates trade or invest as good as people who came before and it's really long-term journey And an important promise to make Fantastic, we're running out of time So we only a couple of seconds left, but I mean lot of talk about but I think the theme of slush is building to last I think that Put devices really about what traded public is about because without building something that lasts you're not gonna attract the Consumers money and savings at a high rate and being there for the long term. What's been essential for you to build that sort of lasting? Enterprise it was important for us to get a banking license because eventually I want to go to you the consumer and Say I'm the right companion. I'm the right partner for the next 30 years of your financial life So your money is safe and secure So really the essence of building to last is really one of the core ingredients and pitches We bring to the people and that hopefully hopefully Empowers us to build one of the most yeah significant savings platforms in Europe in this generation Fantastic question. Thanks a lot for coming. You're gonna be stay over the weekend, right? Yes, I'm gonna explore Helsinki Maybe some sauna. It's gonna be fun. I'm gonna do smoke sauna as well. Hopefully. Yes. Hopefully. I'll see you Maybe not see you because it's monkey. Thanks you guys for joining. I appreciate your time. Thank you