 As the 2023 elections edge closer, political parties remain indecisive on the zoning of presidential tickets and former Governor of the United States, Shagorni, joins the Social Democratic Party, SDP, to contest in the upcoming governorship elections. Well, this is PlusPolitics, I am Mary Anacorn. One of the most controversial issues in Nigeria today is that of the zoning of the presidency ticket. Now, political stakeholders seem to be divided over this issue, as some want the political parties to zone the presidential ticket to the south, and others say otherwise. For instance, recently, former Vice President Attiku Abubakar faulted the call of the People's Democratic Party to zone its presidential ticket to a particular region of the country, saying that the constitution of the Federal Republic of Nigeria does not recognize it. On contrary, presidential aspirants of the party Sam Ohabouma stated that Nigeria is not yet ripe to jettison the zoning system. What's running us to discuss this is Ahmad Buhari, his former presidential candidate of the Sustainable National Party, and is also a United Nations Ambassador. Thank you so much for joining us. Hi, thank you. Good evening. It's good to be here. Great. Of course, the continued conversation about zoning seems to be on the lips of every single person. But then I'd like to start by asking you, what's your stand on the issue of zoning? As many have shut it down, saying that this time around we're looking more at the personalities and what they bring to the table as opposed to the sentiments of zoning. Good evening viewers. It's good to be here on Plus TV. This is what I think and I'm always very straightforward. I think we are still young democracy, and we are also a very complex space. And the problem is that many times when we look at all of these situations, we are quick to just a scatter fact that we are in a multi-ethnic, multi-religious setup, which means that most of the decisions that we make are always tied to those indices that define us as a people, as a country, you know, trying to see a democracy or a democratic space that would work for all of us. No doubt in my mind that we have got a set of political zones, and this has been created in such a way that everybody will feel some level of inclusivity, judging from the fact that we have this complexity in our structure. I keep telling everybody, I didn't choose to be in Nigeria, and Nigeria chose me. And so I would have to do whatever I can in my capacity to ensure that we create a space that is going to be habitable, acceptable, and conducive for all of us. It is 2023, and just 10 years ago, we all sat down here and we criticized former President Jonathan and said to him that we had an 80-year tenure that we had to complete as a northern bloc, and we fought hard, and we installed a president who has been there for about seven years about to complete his 80-year. We've had a Southwestern representative, President of the former President, Ulysses Gorbatsangio, who ran the affairs of the country from 1999 to 2007. With our President Jonathan from the South-South, we've had President Bahari from the Northwest. I think it's about time we look at it, if not, the probably the largest, third-largest ethnic group in the country, which are the evils. I think for equity, fairness, and justice, regardless of where I'm from, I would like to see a Southeastern President emerge. I believe it's going to create a lot of calm, it's going to give a lot of people the belief that we are running an entity called Nigeria that every single bloc matters, and the affairs and the concerns of every single bloc matters. The agitations that we see across the country, especially in the Southwest, it's nothing but the fact that they feel like they're not part of Nigeria. That is why every single day people talk about leaving this country or trying to succeed from this country, even though there's no clear plan on how they're going to do it. In my opinion, one of the best ways that we can resolve these kinds of agitations is to allow everybody have an essay on the table. And though we know that there's a minority situation with a number of people from the Southeast, however, they are significant, and I think we must all work together to see that there's an emergence of an equal president, only so that he can be an equal president for the entire Nigeria. So you're not even saying, let's throw it open to the whole of the South. You're specifically saying that you want, or you're supporting, or you are of the opinion that we need a president from the Igbo extraction talking about the Southeast. So you're saying that every other part of the South should stand down for now. Is that what you're saying? You know, at some point in 1999, for some of those who remember the history very well, we had a build-up of agitation from the Southwest. Nadeko was there, there was agitation, there was rejection because Abiola was denied the mandate in 1993, after the 1993 election. And the only way we could quell that problem was to see that we presented a Southwestern man to run the affairs of the country, and President Obasanjo was picked at the time. And if you remember very well, that election had two major candidates. President Olusiek Obasanjo on one side and Professor Lufa Laie on the other side. They were both European men and were allowed it to happen like that because we just wanted somebody to emerge from that region. And what that did was it created some level of calm in the Southwest. Now, I am saying if we have had a Northern and we've had a Southwestern and we've had a South-Southern man, what stops us from supporting a South-Eastern man to do, to emerge? But I've also, every opportunity I've had, I've also talked to every South-Easterner that I meet. I said, look, if you really want the power to come back to the Southeast, if you want the Southeast to produce a President, then the Southeast must unite itself and present to the Nigerian people its best representatives. And then it will be left for the Nigerian people to build or to accept. And so instead of us to just sit down as people groups here and there saying no or saying yes or saying most or saying we will, it must happen. I think it's about time we start going around conversing the length of breadth of this country as equal people to say, this is what we want. Please let us work together to see that it happens. It is politics. There is nothing wrong with negotiating with people. There's nothing wrong with consulting with people. There's nothing wrong with working with people to see how you can build your trust in your mandate so that they can be there for you when you need that. Interestingly, I have had this conversation with members of the Ohanez-Inbibu worldwide. And I remember asking how strong the voices of the people in the Southeast are in terms of what they want and what they're pushing for. And they said, well, that they are consulting across boards. But I want to take you now to political parties, the two major political parties and their position on the issue of zoning. A few days ago, I spoke with the PDP national, Deputy National Publicity Secretary on this program. And he did have a few thoughts on the matter. I'm going to ask that we play that video. So you tell me what you make of it. I was asking about PDP's position on the issue of zoning. And he said that they had not arrived at some sort of conclusion. And that's almost the same thing for the APC. But I'd like for you to take a listen to what he said, and then we'll come back. As opposed to doing that gentleman agreement, we are working hard to ensure that we produce for Nigerians competence, character, capacity, and the ability to salvage them from this despair and hopelessness in the land. So this is why PDP is taking caution and applying a lot of restraint in concluding on the issue of zoning. We have come so far with the zoning formula. Having attained this height and democracy today, our democracy is not nascent, relatively. It has come over 20 years. And we are beginning to appreciate that it is time that we allow the best to come out of the system. What exactly do you think that Mr. Abdullah, he meant there by allowing the best? And of course, he said they were taking caution. Well, I'm glad that he represented the People's Democratic Party. I'm also glad that I'm sure he must have read the constitution. Section 7, part 3 of the PDP constitution, clearly says that there's going to be zoning rotational presidency from the north to the south. It is very clear. Section 7, part 3 of the PDP constitution. So if he's coming today to say what he's saying, obviously, he's just saying it because he's probably having a candidate in mind that is from the north. And because he's from the north and Buhari has just finished about eight years, they're trying to make a justification while another northern answer that there, in my opinion, I strongly believe that we must ensure that we keep the unity of this country paramount in our hearts when we make all of these decisions. Because at the end of the day, our inability to make sure that every part of this country is happy with the unity that exists or the existence that has brought us together by nature of our geopolitical arrangement, then it's important for us to realize that we must learn not to be selfish, we must learn not to be greedy, but most importantly, ensure that every single facet of this entity called Nigeria is put into proper perspective and respected. I still strongly believe that many individuals in the PDP would shy away from that part of the constitution that was written years ago, about 25 years ago, only so that they can actually start seeing how their chosen choice or preferred choice of candidates selfishly will be the passing of choice and it's unfortunate. A lot of people would wonder why you are so interested in pushing for the southeast mostly, or for a southeast ticket or any more presidents when you obviously are not from that extraction. What actually got you so interested in this idea? Is the Niger blood in me? It's absolutely the Niger blood in me. If anybody would ask me, I would easily tell you that I'm in Nigeria before anything else and I believe that even though I am a house by identification as a Nigerian and a house, I think what is most important here is that we are running a multicultural space and the only reason why a family can be united and stay strong together is when there is equity, fairness and justice. Even in your homes, the moment your parents choose one of the children or the other sibling, prefer the other sibling to the other one, you will see some animosity among the children. There will be some jealousy, there will be some rejection, hatred and reluctance and this is exactly what is happening on the bigger picture with the country called Nigeria and it is because a few of us are refusing to stand by truth and stand firmly by it to say, let the right hand be done and the right hand should be done so that we can have a peaceful space. That's the only way we can progress. Okay, we just talked about the PDP. Let's talk about the APC. As at yesterday, the APC is still yet to make up its mind as to where to zone its internal offices. I'm talking about the National Convention. The dates have also been pushed. We were expecting that that convention will happen I think on the 26th of this month but then there's some uncertainty hovering over the APC on that matter but then the most interesting part, the part I wanna look at is the fact that youth in the APC are asking that whoever is going to succeed President Bahari would be aged between 40 and 50 meaning that they're asking for a younger president but in this instance, is age really what we're going for this time being that we have experienced the highs and the lows of the different politicians that have occupied that office. Should that be a major concern in any way? So in 2016, I made a declaration to run for the highest office of the land. I ran for office of the President of the Federal Republic of Nigeria and one of the things I kept telling people and reminding people even though I was in my late 30s at the time I said to everybody that age is not a function of good leadership. That you are young doesn't necessarily mean you can give good leadership. Similarly, if you're old, it doesn't mean that you can give good leadership. What we're looking for is competence. What we're looking for is track record. What we're looking for is experience. Those are the things that we are putting on the forefront to say, do the people in the Southeast have individuals, have sons and daughters with this credibility? And the answer is yes. And I know that a few of the Southeasterns have put their hearts in the ring to say, I am going to be just there for the office of the President of the Federal Republic of Nigeria. I would expect that at this time, the Southeasterns would have been excited and rallying around these dear sons to make sure that the entire country sees that these sons of theirs have the capacity and have the capability. I know we have people like audience or Kalu who has declared. I know we have people like Rocha Sepuracha who has declared. There is a serving minister, Chupu Emeka and White. Even though he has not declared, but he has also showed interest. But I think of all of these people, the one person that I think has got through track record in terms of his ability to understand the Nigerian situation is former Senate President, Senator Ayim Hirez Ayim. Now Ayim Hirez Ayim was not just the Senate President who was controlling a whole arm of government which of course is the National Assembly. I think he controlled it very well. I think it was a successful era. It was peaceful. But he's then also served as the Secretary to the Government of the Federation. Now the Secretary of the Government of the Federation doesn't just control the entire civil service. He also tells the affairs of another arm of government which is the Executive. And to top it all off, he's a lawyer. So in my opinion, I think all of these things are things that we should critically look at and respect the fact that he is an Igbo man. He does have the credibility that is required to run the affairs of our country. You sound more like you're trying to push for the office of the chief campaigner for the former Senate President. If he were to give you the opportunity, would you take it? Well, I would support any South Eastern that has the credibility at this stage. And I have said it very clearly. I have met with a few of them. I have sampled them. And I think I have also listened to most of them give their presentations on TV, on other media platforms to say, this is why it should be me. I think I'm more drawn to his presentations. I think he understands the issues. I think he has, he's though he's an Igbo man, he has lived in the North for a long time and has also lived in the Southwest. We understand the yearnings of the people. And this is not me making the case for former Senate President and former Secretary to the government of the Federation, Senate of Pires and Impires. But I am also saying very critically that before we do not quickly reduce our options to a very few, we may be confused and we're not able to make a proper decision when the time comes. So this is me saying, because South from the South is, who are truly national, national in nature, who understand the situation, who have mingled with the people from the length and breadth of this country. And I think we should keep them in hearing and listening here and support them as we walk towards ensuring that they present to us in Nigeria that would work, not just for the Igbos, but for the entire country. Let's move away from this and talk quickly about young people like you. Interestingly, you told us that you had, you know, run for the office of the president, interesting. But let's talk about youth participation. We're very good at, you know, talking about these things. I told you what? You did tell us, you just told us that you ran for the office of the president and I'm saying that that's an interesting thing. You did not know? Well, we know, I'm just, I'm just retracing what you said. But then I want to talk about youth participation. As much as, you know, we talked about and pushed for the not too young to run bill, which became a law. Let's look at youth participation. A lot of young people are great behind their key parts. But then when it comes to participation, looking at 1999 till now, 2023 is just around the corner, how much have we grown in terms of participation? And I'm not just talking about being parts or members of political parties. I'm talking about, you know, walking the talk, showing up on election days, owning, you know, a voter's card and making sure that we show up and vote. I mean, I always like to use the elections in Lagos state, the recent local government elections. We hardly saw people show up for the elections in the first instance. And then now I'm talking about the elections, general elections proper. Have Nigerian young people showed any interest better than what we had seen in years past? So this is what I think. I think a lot of young people have a match. I think a lot of young people exist in the National Assembly. But in 2019 election after the bill was passed for the North, young to run, a lot of young people threw their hat into the ring and some of them played the politics properly, especially those who played the politics on the big platforms. Now the truth is, with the way the Nigerian system is structured, for now it's still a two-party state. And so for many people who went to the smaller parties, even though they put in a lot of efforts, they didn't have the required structure that would deliver them the offices that they were looking for. So I've been trying to advocate for the participation of young people in the existence, political parties that are strong, talking about the PDP and the APC. And I'm telling them that, look, forget about whether it's dirty politics, forget about whether they're going to squeeze you. If we go there in our numbers, we can have a say on the table, understand the constitution, understand the gimmicks and you play smarter than these people. If you look at all of these older people, everybody on the table working with them to ensure that they succeed are all young people. So in my opinion, if you look at, if you also look at the existing political class, most of them got into politics when in their early 30s, Senator Pires Aimee, for example, became a senator at the age of 37. By 39, he was a Senate president. So you can see that he was quite a young man. And this is exactly how I want us to think as young people, believing that yes, if we go into that space, we would actually defeat those people. Arrangements really produce a good leader because, you know, you seem to be of the opinion that we cannot jettison the zoning arrangement for now. And that means that you're in support of what Senator Ohabunwa had said earlier on about the fact that we haven't come of age to just throw it in the wind and say, well, let's just pick any leader as opposed to what's happening in other parts of the world. But can it bring anything? Go ahead. Yes, can I just chip in something there? There is politics, yeah, and it's across the world. Different democracies for different countries, for different people and how they understand it. And people are quick to use the models that are working in different countries to use as a comparison with what is happening in Nigeria. This is Nigeria, we are complex. In my opinion, there is no country in the world that is like ours. And this is exactly the mindset that we must have when we're trying to execute political practices because we must look at our complexities and ensure that the decisions we are making would encompass the generality of the people, not for a selected few. We do know also that even if we're going to get to the zoning arrangement, we can get to seeing it after every zone possibly present its own candidate. And maybe at that time, the Nigerian people would now say, oh, it doesn't even matter. After all, when a house man was there, I didn't see the kind of development that I wanted. When Yoruba man was there, I say Yoruba man, I didn't feel it. When an Yoruba man got there, I actually didn't feel it as a people man. And then at that point, you would say, whoever has the best presentation, whoever has the best track record, the best experience, we are going to cue behind him. And that is exactly what I want us to do, not changing the goal post in the middle of the game. We can't change the goal post in the middle of the game and say we are being fair, it's being unfair. Let's talk about the electorate, which is very important. Have we learned anything, whether it be from 2015 to now, or whether it be beyond 2015, do you think the average Nigerian voter has learned? Have we, are we tired enough so much that we will not make the right choices or be more deliberate in who we choose or who we cast our votes for? Can you say that we have learned? I mean, you might not necessarily know how every Nigerian feels, but you have been in the field. Do you think that we have learned or we have even grown and come of age? Yes, we have learned. Yes, we know. We know the problems. We know that when these politicians come to us and they give us money, we know that when they get to the office, they're not going to deliver because they believe they're giving us what they need to give us to get to office. We know these things. But because that one indicator is still there, which is hunger, hunger is still a factor. A lot of people do not know how to eat square meals. A lot of people cannot buy things on their own. A lot of people do not have regular income. When these politicians visit on election day and they are ready to give them 5,000 era, 10,000 era, or even less, or even a bar of soap in some local government, or even a little, very, very cheap wrapper from the market, they are willing to sell their conscience because they need to fill their bellies first. For most of those people, if you ask them to choose between their heads and their belly, they are going to choose their belly. Out of my head, let me keep my belly first. So does that mean that there's not going to be any surprise come 2023? It's just going to be the same thing. We're just going to take the monies and let it be business as usual because I'm not understanding the fact that we're hungry. I know that the situation of things is really bad. I mean, I'm sure that you also have been dealing with the field queues there in Abuja and everywhere else. But should we have not learned that that money that we're given cannot sustain us in the age of six years or how long the person stays in office? So again, should we continue in this regard and say, well, times are hard, let's take these monies and just, because these people will do whatever they want to do. Do you think that we've had enough vocer education out there? And I'm not just talking about INEC or the NOA, which is almost half-past debt. What about us, the ones in the middle class who should know better? How much information are we putting out there? Okay, so one thing that you said that really struck a chord. One thing you said that really struck a chord is the fact that as a people, we know those things. As a people, we understand the repercautionary effects that these decisions that we make have on us at the end of the day. But these people are actually part of the problem. And that is why, when I get an opportunity to speak, I tell people that, yes, we have a leadership problem, but we also do have a followership problem. And what we get as a people is an exact reflection of the decisions that we have made as a people. The kind of leaders that we get are the kind of leaders that we have by gainful. So we are going to continue with this voters awareness, where civic responsibility, we're going to keep talking to the people. It is a responsibility that we have bestowed upon ourselves to ensure that we do what we must do to make sure that the voters understand the plight that they are in. And that the decisions that they make at every point in time determines the future they're going to have for themselves, their children, and their unborn children. Finally, let's talk about the divisions and the ethnic sentiments that are flying around. I mean, the reason why we have these non-state actors and secessionists, as you made mentioned earlier on in the conversation, do you think that politicians are still going to take advantage of these divisions because they know that these things exist and the lines are yet to be blurred? That that would also be a cat that they'll pull come to the next week. Yes, they want to take advantage of it. We're going to fall for it again. Our religious leaders are going to help support it. Unfortunately, our traditional leaders are going to help support it. Unfortunately, some of them are going to be out of ignorance. Others are going to be because of what they're going to get in their pockets. This situation is worrisome, is disappointing. You know, it calls for a true urgency for the elite class to wake up for stats and start realizing that regardless of all of our differences, whether it be ethnicity, religious, political party, ideological affiliation, gender, hate bracket, that at the end of the day, when those road accidents happen on the road, they do not choose whether you are Igbo or Yoruba or Hausa. Whenever there's corruption and we find out who is responsible for the corruption, we realize that every single person was part of it regardless of their ethnicity or their religious affiliation. So Nigerians must wake up and realize that most of the predicament that we find ourselves, we are actually the architects of those things. We must change our ways. And all of the candidates who've thrown their hats into the ring or those who we're still presuming might be interested because from what you're saying, we need a bridge builder, we need a unifier, someone who would be able to convince every single person that when Nigerians first before we are Igbo, Hausa or Yoruba or wherever. And who could that unifier be? Please don't say if it's a Pair Sayin. Are you asking me who that unifier should be? Yes. Well, I think it's important for us to listen to all of them. It's still a build up towards the campaign season. Most of them are going to produce their manifesto. They're going to tell us their plans. And very clearly, I have listened to some of them. I've listened to a few of them. And the Enterprise I am still takes the box for me for now. I knew you would say it. Sorry, I was not supposed to say that. Well, Ahmed Buhari is former presidential candidate of the Sustainable National Party, SNP, and is also United Nations Ambassador. Thank you so much for speaking with us. We appreciate it. Well, thank you. Well, thank you all for staying with us. We'll take a short break. And when we return, we go to a kitty politics where the state elections and, of course, movements within the PTP had ended up having Governor Shagumoni in the SDP stay with us.