 Now we're back. We're live. It's energy 808 the cutting edge about energy here in Hawaii more specifically in Molokai today And that's what we're going to talk about Molokai Machinations we're gonna see what that means in the context of Molokai and co-op We have co-op already in Molokai. We talk about that too Ali Andrews and Todd Yamashita. Thank you for joining us today you guys. Oh Yeah, our pleasure my pleasure Ali could you introduce Todd and then Todd could you introduce Ali see what we get out of that? Absolutely, I'll go first Todd Yamashita is the president of Hoahu energy cooperative Molokai Which is a grassroots effort started about a year and a half ago formally But many years in the making I would say in terms of energy advocacy on the island and The co-op is spearheading the first community owned community-based renewable energy project this year Okay, fair enough. That is how much of that would you agree with Todd? Ah, so sounds pretty accurate. All right. Now. It's your turn. So can you introduce Ali Andrews? Sure. So Ali's a good friend of mine. She's from Shake Energy Collaborative, which is a women owned It's a their energy Ali might do a better job She didn't agree or disagree, right? Yeah There are women owned, you know benefit corporation and they've actually really been instrumental in helping Molokai kind of Find our way in energy and defining Molokai's energy future and and I just really grateful to Ali for, you know, spending literally years Meeting with our community and helping us forward Okay Ali, you want to take a rebuttal on that? Absolutely not. No, I feel like that intro was overflattering. All right So Ali, let's go to you first, you know, why Molokai? Why Molokai? I mean, there's lots of other islands Is Molokai special in some way? Oh, Molokai is special in many ways, absolutely. I would say why Molokai from my company's perspective is that we are trying to enable community-designed and community-owned energy and The group that we have been working with on Molokai is sort of primed and ready to design and own their own energy They've been working on Energy literacy as a group. There's the non-profit sustainable Molokai has been working for many years to sort of increase awareness about different energy options and what the community likes and doesn't like so they're really ready to engage in this Conversation of what do we want our energy future to look like? How do we own it? Let's get down to the details of literally what solar panels and what battery technology do we want to propose? I think they're in a very exciting place from that perspective You know one point of distinction that I that I carry and I could be wrong Is that Molokai has a what do you want to call it constituency that really wants to be involved? They don't want somebody coming in and telling them what to do with energy They want to be involved in developing energy Shaping managing energy am I right perhaps more than other islands and that's probably because Molokai is different And it's small am I right about all of that? You know definitely Molokai is really really different. I think it's old school in a lot of ways more Hawaiian Really, you know through to our heart and and with that I mean we're always we have a attention on our resources You know all our resources are very limited the island is small And even though we have about 7,000 people here. It's still really critical You know that we kind of keep track of things and energy happens to be Kind of at the forefront of things right now. It's you know, it's always been about water I would say a Molokai and now that this new energy space is opening up We're seeing like an opportunity, you know to get some community benefit. Hopefully in this area So what's the difference between a collaborative you know of this question? what's the difference between a collaborative and a co-op and And Can get a collaborative can the farmers and ranchers be friends can elaborate it get a collaborative and a co-op live together on Molokai? I would say so So far so good You know, I you know, let's take take a look at this from a big big picture I think energy traditionally has has been somewhat, you know, it's been somewhat extractive and so we're trying to look at How to do energy and energy projects in a kind of a different sort of way You know, how can we Form something that works well for the community And so we've had a really in-depth conversation What we found was that for us it looks like the cooperative model is going to work really well And what do you think Ali it can work with a A collaborative model. I mean what what's the difference a cooperative sounds to me I'm not really familiar with what's happening in Molokai, but Sounds to me like It's a it's a legal structure Sort of like the hawaii island energy co-op or kiu c So can you have a co-op just for Molokai? and How much You know of the geography does that does that deal with everything some things? And and if there is a relationship between the collaborative and the co-op what what is that you guys say your friends, but Are you also competitors? Maybe i'll answer the collaborative versus cooperative, uh, and then town I'm going to punt it to you in terms of what the co-op Means So my company, uh, is called shake energy collaborative because we want to take a collaborative approach to develop projects designing with not for communities And I would say overall that Idea of how we are working together has been working really well that we are we are partners in The cooperative they are the decision makers They are the ultimate owners and tenants and stewards Of the project and our company along with our partner development company monopacific we bring the options we bring Some of the format of like how we make decisions We help host community workshops But ultimately I think the the symbiosis of how do we do it they make the decisions and and we help implement Has been working very well So is your expertise in engineering is it in You know grid development. Is it in? renewables What what are you what are you offering? What are we is your special sauce? Special sauce I would say overall is um the community design element of an energy project I think that's how we differentiate ourselves from other energy developers is that we put a special emphasis on making sure that the project Designed is designed by the community and not For the community or in a vacuum not in including the community at all Yes, that's our secret sauce. Okay, and are you working or do you contemplate working on specific projects on molokaya? What are they? Oh, yes, uh, we the the co-op is focusing on a community-based renewable energy project Also known as cbre or shared solar across the state, which is 2.75 megawatt total across two sites solar plus battery storage project um, and yeah I you know, I remember visiting the molokaya, uh, you know, I guess it's the mali um the mali the molokai branch of the mali electric company And there's a couple of things there one is is a Substantial diesel facility and the other is a kind of short-term battery. This was as a about a year or two ago And I'm wondering is that the same site that you're talking about Ali or is it a different site? Uh, Todd you want to answer that one? Sure. Yeah, so so right now The cbre that we're looking at is proposed to be at halal, which is where the where the power station is um, but in a nutshell, it's just to kind of give you a more A bigger idea of what it is. Um, like Ali said 2.75 megawatts So this accounts for about 20 percent of molokai's energy needs And for us the community-based renewable energy aspect Allows us to do virtual solar for people who can't like uh people who rent their homes and whatnot They can't put solar on the roofs. So for us We'll go out we'll put your solar panels in our field and we'll give you The benefit and the cost benefit that will reflect on your utility bill For us, it's a little different between kiu c of kawai and our plans Co-op here on molokai and how we intend to operate for us. This is just our foot in the door We're not taking over the grid We want a chance that they con this 20 percent of molokai's renewable energy Do a really great job with it. Make sure that the people who don't have access to energy or have little access to energy Make sure these guys are benefited first and after that, um, you know, we do have a lot more planned But we are all in on the cvre because we have to be successful Yeah, let's talk about it cvre. Um, that's a relatively new model Um, and I guess to have a cvre you have to get permission Um, so tell us the you know the status of your efforts, uh, where are you on the continuum That takes you to completion and integration and so forth Uh, it's not you tell you talk. Sure. So, um, the cvre, uh, You know the the draft cvre the rfp was was released and so that's a repressed for proposal Our community that's one of the things that really galvanized our community It said, you know, we we came to get we were already talking about energy. We came together and we said look at this project This is a great reason to create a co-op and and and to bring Value back to our people using our own resources like the sun and whatnot Um, we got deeper into it and saw that the rfp had a lot of problems. So we went to the puc and um, You know, we realized that the puc It really is an advocate that there is a lot of advocacy there for us and Um, basically in a nutshell what's happened is it's created a broader discussion, right? How can the puc help the community? To be further forward in the process to be upfront in the process so that when a lot of these large You know grid scale projects roll out That they're not at odds. They're not creating friction. Um, you know You have community consent. You have the community involved up front and so where we're at with the process right now is the puc is uh, we recently had a status conference and it it allows us a seat uh at the front of of the of the class and at the table And it looks like it's going to allow us to work directly hopefully with the utility with the puc And craft a better project Um, I keep reminding myself that this project, you know, we can get all into the details and whatnot But what it's really about is the people on the looker. We have the electricity prices that takes my uh, yes, of course, so it takes my attention to ollie You're you're the people person primarily aren't you you're out there designing relations with the community and I I wanted to ask you but the status of your Work with the community what kind of feedback? Have you gotten what kind of commitment? Have you gotten? And I guess there's two levels of that because my recollection is a co-op involves members You have to get members from the community and and two is like in any Place in the islands you you want to get community buy into the projects individually So that people are on the same page and if they're not on the same page that has created You know significant problems and energy development in the past and in some places right now so tell us about the status of your reference and reaching out and the status of the What do we call public acceptance public support of the co-op? and Any projects that are you know happening within the co-op? Hmm well, I think Todd will be a great reference to to see if my temperature check is correct, but I think that So far we We have a lot of buy-in from a small group of Very dedicated community members on the order of two to three dozen who show up pretty regularly to our weekly and bi-weekly community workshops And then we've been slowly growing outwards from there. So I think Todd, I think we have 180 or so community members on our email list that we invite to our saturday workshops And we don't get 180. We usually get two dozen maybe three dozen on a particularly Spicy topic That peaks people's interests that want to show up over zoom The wild thing is that a lot of this has happened Over zoom and and we haven't been able to host any in-person community workshops Which has been a challenge, but that that's an ongoing Effort, I would say shared by my company and the co-op They recognize that in order for us to be successful We need to have broader even more broad community support than what we have right now If we build the cbr e project we could have upwards of a thousand homes sign up for The project which is There are what is it? I think a little over 3,000 Residential customers on the island. So we need to convince the third Of the island that they want to sign up for a project I don't think it's going to be a hard sell so far Everybody really is behind the values of the co-op and the mission of the co-op and the fact that it's locally owned and The profits stay on the island is super important to a lot of people But that's not to say that there aren't issues where where we have strong Words strong like I think we should do this No, I'm really concerned about that and I think the fact that we're able to have those conversations over zoom is amazing And and we'll continue those Well, you know last time I worked at Molokai there were people on Molokai who were Kind of in the community organization department there There were people in Molokai who Wanted a piece of the eruption You know you alluded to that a moment ago. He said the profits should stay on Molokai and all that So do people have people on Molokai have an expectation that they will own the project or maybe this goes to the You know co-op aspect of things But what are their expectations when you do meet with them talk with them get feedback from them? What do they expect that you and Todd will be doing for them and what they will be getting out of it? Um, oh, yeah, go for it Todd go that's a really good question and and I think the number one thing is transparency They want to know that we're everything that we're learning is going to be shared That they have a seat at the table that our community meetings are accessible Um, you know, they're they're they want to know everything from hey, where is the battery coming from? Uh, is it how is it manufactured? Is it kind to the earth? How how is the labor practices with the manufacturing? All of those tiny little details we're drilling down on on a regular basis those things matter to us Um things affect our small community and we want to make sure that the projects that we're doing are You know is is not going to negatively impact another small community someone You know, okay, um gee So if the answer to the question about whether the battery Is is environmentally kind? Um aren't satisfactory. What happens then? You know, I again at some point you have to compromise You know, you have this is our foot in our door and and I'm not saying that we are going to make compromises I am saying that we're going to go out and we're going to with our community With our energy experts informing us We are going to take as much information as we can and and make the best possible decision we can Given mainstream technology given what given the parameters of the project the parameters The project has specific parameters such as solar bus storage And you know, we have to be able to deliver on on that Oh solar plus storage We had a show on that a few days ago And that sounds pretty attractive because you get some money For the plus part of solar plus Um And will these projects benefit by solar plus storage? I mean that brought that that particular uh program Um, I can I'll I'll start with this one and Todd you add anything after um, so Yes, absolutely. Um, uh the project I believe the reason that the utility requested that all projects all CBRU projects on moloka You have solar plus storage is that they already have a good amount of solar on folks rooftops on the island And and they've sort of reached a capacity that they can deal with Without batteries and so We are asked we are required by the utility to put Batteries on there and that will definitely benefit the full grid As a whole because they can charge and discharge on a daily basis and sort of even out what they need to Call on their diesel power plant to produce and that will lower The cost of operating that diesel plant if they're allowed to operate it at a little more of an even Um aspect and so therefore we can when we bid in when we charge a price to the utility For our project we that value will be reflected in our bid price. So absolutely we're taking advantage of solar storage The other thing is um, you know, you guys are uh, is it is it fair to say that you're both kind of like startups Oh, yeah, absolutely. We are um, we are startups. We're scrappy. We are, uh, figuring it out. Um, But I would say yeah, absolutely. Todd would you do you think we're scrappy? Yeah, we're still defining who we are. We're you know, who are we? We're not a developer Uh, I I I don't work for any money. I'm completely volunteer. Everybody I work with is volunteer Uh, we're working tons of hours on this, you know And so and and we're trying to involve as many people as we can so that we can truly say we're a community home or community run and um, yeah, what that what that's going to look like, um, legally or structurally, but we're still defining that Okay, so, um Why why Todd are you doing this? Uh, is it is it for the big box? Uh, is it are you on the way to becoming a another Jeff Bezos or what? No, definitely not. Um, you know, my my grandfather was the president of Molokai Electric And that was when I was still privately owned and I remember those days and my father followed in his footsteps and You know back then the utility was an integral part of our community There was no separating Molokai Electric and Molokai. It was just, you know Everyone knew that everyone here was employed by the company Uh, a lot of the give back went directly to the community And you know, it is it's just it just makes sense It makes sense that in this day and age if we can farm the sun and turn that into energy And that sun is shining on everyone We should be able to technically do this You know, you used the term a few minutes ago, uh referring to, um The environmental, uh The environmental motivations on a project like this Uh, and I I forget the exact term but it was just something about um, you You what we do these days Is we extract I think that's the term you use we extract And we do not, um, you know give back Through the environment we don't we don't do things that make the environment sustainable Uh, and I said to myself, huh Well, it's an environmentalist only an environmentalist would put it that way Am I right? I you know, I I am in conservation. I'm a Hokulea worldwide voyager You know, I have two two boys eight and ten years old And you know, they're going to be inheriting the mess that we leave behind and and so yes I'm a little bit of an environmentalist absolutely But you know, I I I'm in this because the bigger picture Is kindness we need to be kind towards each other and if there is haves and have-nots in our communities We need to look out for each other. We need to look out for the planet We have to be kind to the planet. We all know where this is headed So there's no excuses like let's let's get let's get working on stuff like this, you know Let's make these things work and happen um You're going to make any money really And you're going to have any money left over to to Provide to your membership in the co-op. I mean they're going to get a check What is it? How does it pencil out for you? Uh, you know, we're we're we're right now that is one of the reasons why we're we're working so hard at crafting this rfp We want it to benefit the community Uh, are we going to make money? I If you mean the community, yes, I hope so. I hope we save on our electricity bills We we use the least amount of electricity. We have the highest You know rates and and it just doesn't make sense to us. It's not fair for us So and ali, I'll let you I'll let you answer as well. Oh good. You can tell us what you tell the people Um, absolutely. Um, I I would say I mean the the model of the cooperative is not Itself its entity to profit it's to save money for its members and uh, ultimately I Todd can speak to this but the members are broadly represented in the community. So We want this project to pencil and we will only do this project if it saves people money we will not pursue the project if it doesn't save anybody money because That's not what it's meant for And I yeah, I would say, uh, we're still working on that There are a lot of uncertainties in terms of what is the interconnection cost going to be How much is it going to cost to ship, you know, 7 000 solar panels to moloka ii in two years We're but we're doing our due diligence We're we're getting as many estimates as we can for all of those various factors And building that into our model and the the cooperative is is very closely involved in Those understandings and and our research and we'll be very involved in our ultimate proposal So can you give me a sort of a differential between the way things are on moloka ii energy-wise right now And the way things will be when you achieve This and other projects How will things change for the people at moloka ii with your, you know projects and Input and what have you and by the way, I do remember that there have been various projects planned For moloka ii that never actually happened So you guys are following in the footsteps of Entrepreneurs, maybe that's not the right word for a co-op You're following in the footsteps of entrepreneurs that were unable to finish their plans Um, I mean, why don't you answer it first and then Todd can chime it? Yeah, yeah, I think this is probably a better a Todd question than for me But I I hope that through our work together. We will create Capacity for this project say this project is successful. It's online. It's producing the electricity We wanted to it's producing the the grid services that the battery storage capabilities that we wanted to it's saving co-op members and the subscribers Money and also it has built the capacity for the co-op to pursue its next two dozen projects This is not its last project on it's on its list And I think definitely not the last project that moloka ii needs and I think it makes All the sense in the world for the co-op to be spearheading All of the future various very creative energy projects So that's what I hope is that we've built the capacity for the co-op To pursue what it wants in the future Todd, what do you think? Todd, you know, what is the status of energy now? Um, you know, I know that at least some of it is diesel. Although maybe rooftop solar Is there any on and and what do you hope to achieve in terms of the net effect the net result With the co-op and some of these community-based projects Great great questions. Um, so the current status is that we have zero grid scale renewable energy projects We are years and years and years behind The pressure is on all parties To stop burning diesel To stabilize prices for our molokai people And and to hopefully You know have a meaningful reduction on their bill going forward Yes, absolutely. We want this to be our foot in the door We want this to lead to bigger and better things right now There are a number of people that live off of the grid completely projects like this Won't you know, even really help these people So we want this project to empower us. We want to go forward in this and shine We want to attract attention and partners through this so that we can continue to reach out and and and to bring energy Access to to everyone on molokai and and not just in terms of you know, what you plug your refrigerator into We want to look at transportation. We want to look at cars. We want to look at You know, how can we bring our carbon footprint down across the board and do it in a way which is equitable? And that has energy justice at its core Wow Wow, no wonder the puc likes you So, um, let me let me ask you this. I mean, it's you know, it's one of the points in the title of our show, which is Molokai Mac machinations a co-op in the cards But we have two co-ops that are, you know, that are established. So one of the big island is still Coming about under Marco Mangelsdorf and so but What are your thoughts about taking this this whole System this This thing you're designing To other islands It's this is what you are looking at now Would you try to figure out now something that could be Useful on other islands or if not islands then maybe neighborhoods new parts of islands in the future Is this is or is this or you or you're limited to Right now to Molokai And if you're looking at other areas How how would you do that? How would you take it to other places and how would you? You know do the transition so to speak Thank you for that question really So so as far as our footprint here on Molokai This this is our kuleana here on our island and we're going to take care of ourselves as best we can that being said We have a homegrown energy justice group that includes people From Waianae from Kahuku and from throughout Hawaii that has been Inspired by some of the work that we've been doing in the past year. And so in terms of Taking this statewide Yeah, we we have every intention to influence In impact and hopefully change Some of the way that the rules around renewable energy the inclusiveness of the community Um community consent getting the community up front in the process Those are the ways that we want to further develop renewable energy throughout Hawaii Yeah, and uh, what about you Ali do you see an expansion of uh, what is it the shape Beyond Molokai Do you do you see it the you know doing the same sort of community outreach? um You know activities on the big island or kawai or even oahu on Maui Yeah, absolutely. Uh, I definitely think so and I think that the the message And the story uh that hoahu shares Has really inspired folks like like tan was mentioning We've been starting to talk to folks on oahu that have been I think in in similar situations of systematic oppression of of seeing projects that come to their space that they do not appreciate and do not value and have felt powerless over the implementation of I think those communities Are just now thinking about you know, what does it look like for us to build from the ground up? And I think that looks I'm learning that that looks very different Um, uh, depending on what community you're going into So I'm learning a lot about you know, what was I doing a year and a half ago with the molokai community? to start the conversation and What how can I modify that to fit? This new group that I'm talking to um, I think it's to be determined But definitely yes very very shareable, but in in new ways in each place Yeah, you know one of the problems in oahu Is that there's not all that much land? We talk about that all the time and and you have neighborhoods that they may have bought into say wind turbines not too far from their bounds and almost and so on and so forth, but then they have They have other thoughts about it as the wind turbines get built and before you know what you have a a nimby effect where they They have agreed Or it appeared they have agreed Who were given project and then they like unagree And it just turns out to be nimby. We don't want to close to us and we really don't you know We don't care about what other sites you might be able to find but you can't do it here Um, and a problem with that is you know, wahu there's not that much land that's available for these things um, and so You know, I wonder how how you deal with that because if you say Tell us if you want this or you don't want this um, you know a lot of constituent homeowners and All that will they'll say no, we don't want it Put it in somebody else's backyard How do you deal with that because you could easily be you know, just sort of opposing Anything that a nimby person would oppose I I know it's a hard question. No, this is this is great. I this is what we came here to talk about Let's talk about this. Um, you know, as you know, the the the whole landscape is changing really quickly We're we're starting to talk about You know instead of grid following Uh technologies grid building technologies, you know, we're if you're talking about space and looking at all these different spaces You have all these homes that have all these solar and and now you're having solar plus storage on all these homes If you start working with grid building technologies now, you're talking about virtual utility Now, you're not having to bulldoze, you know, 100 acres Uh of ag land you've already got the infrastructure. You've already got the developed infrastructure right at home You know, the question is now at this point. So you get that far, right? How do you create equity between the haves and the have-nots? Sure big big question huge big question How do you do that? Yeah Um, how do you do that Ali because some people will never be able to afford Solar on their rooftop period no matter what kind of financing arrangement you give them they will not be able to afford it So what do you do for them? Yeah, I I think that uh That may be true. Um, although I think uh every problem is potentially solvable by grants or subsidies or or You know, the government creating a loan program that does not That is not contingent upon your credit score But it's a contingent upon your ability to repay your utility bills, etc Like there are different metrics that definitely other states and this state is also exploring Through the gems fund, which I think is very awesome Um, I also wanted to touch back on the idea of nimbyism and the idea of creating equity through community consent I think that the the paradox of It's either a yes or a no you like renewable energy or you don't in your neighborhood I think I think that is maybe the way that Development has been considered in the past and is probably why We run into these issues is like this is my project say yes or say no to it, but please say yes um I think what we are doing on molokai, which I think I feel really inspired by is the like What should we do? We all are on the same page that we we want renewable energy and we want to know what it looks like Okay, is it wind? Is it solar what immediately we shifted to solar because wind has a historic Opposition we thought it would be easier to go solar But I think we also heard from the community that maybe wind could be a yes in certain circumstances If it weren't forced upon us in the one way that the developer said it was going to look like So I think on Olafu when you're talking to community members Who have opposed renewable energy in a certain format in a certain place? It's not that they do not support renewable energy and I don't mean to speak for them They also have shared their own opinions about it, but I think Creating a blank slate and saying what do you want in your in your backyard? What what does renewable energy look like? I think a lot of it does look like using developed space using parking lots using rooftop square we can And then getting creative about dual land uses in other areas where agriculture and solar are viable And maybe in some areas that's not viable and people are willing to make that assessment of land use So I think it's a co-creation Not a do you want it or do you not want it in my opinion? Yeah, I totally agree. I I think that's really important creativity can solve so many problems Even problems that seem to be insoluble Well, let me ask you one last question. This is we got a close pretty soon. So let me ask you one last question you know, there there are There are people in communities in Hawaii that see each island as a separate community I think that's so on Molokai and it may be so on other islands too There's a separate community where you know, it's it's miles away in a plane ride I wish it was a ferry ride too, but a plane ride to other islands and And they see themselves as separate communities and separate personalities separate personas And so when you get for a variety of reasons When the issue of an undersea cable was raised a few years ago Big pushback. Nobody wanted that. A lot of people didn't want that But in the future it seems to me that the technology would allow for that And that you could take a place for example like the big island which has you know, huge amount of space Which could generate an extraordinary amounts of energy far beyond its island needs They could share that same thing in In Maui, I think But you know, there's still a kind of it's radioactive the issue is radioactive But I wanted to know what you guys think about the possibility of islands Sharing energy However, it's generated with other islands or is that foreclosed by our history our culture our radioactive recollections of what happened With the undersea cable issue 10 years ago on Yeah, thanks. I I I think it again, um, it comes down to um You know, literally how much do you need? Right? Um, I if I put solar on my house on my rooftop I need about a third of my rooftop for solar. So how big do you need to go? You know, how how big do you need right and and so If if the footprint is really only that big then we don't need to go to every other island You know to borrow or trade or whatever, um, you know, let's let's solve what we got in our own backyard and Go from there Ali um, I think that's totally right and one thing that I would add is that I I think creative solutions like that Could be really amazing As long as we're not recreating The harms of our past where we use, you know, putting generation Over here because no one's going to bother us to support load over here because you know the hotels or The fancy neighborhood needs it. I think there's a long history of systematic racism in putting our energy generation in locations where people of color where low income communities Feel like they have less voice to push that out and there's sort of the dumping grounds for fossil fuel generation in the past and even renewable energy generation currently Um, I think that's that's still happening today And we need to work hard to make sure that we don't continue to perpetuate that and as long as you know Island to island generation Doesn't perpetuate that I think that would be a cool thing to explore Wow, you guys are so thoughtful, you know, you are um The voice of the future And I I predict that you will be successful I wish you would be successful And I wish you would teach us all some lessons about how to do this statewide Adya Masheeda Ali Andrews. Thank you so much for joining us on this discussion All right