 Hey everybody, good afternoon. I am so excited today to have my guest president of ICI Dr. Lauren Tessier How do you say your last name Lauren? I'm sorry. I should have asked that before of it. That's fine I really don't care. Either way, I grew up in Massachusetts. So I'm used to hearing it with the A H or IE are I answer to everything. Yeah Well, of course our colleagues know you again as a president of ICI but you've been in this field for quite a while I will formally introduce you in just a minute. Let's do the real quick housekeeping You guys have heard the spiel But if you want to find any information blogs other things you can go to my website jillcarnaghan.com All of the free content for the past 12 years is there for your perusal And then of course, please subscribe to the youtube channel. It's been so fun to provide even more free content I think we have like 65 hours of interviews there with experts like Lauren here and so we can go there and look at past interviews and enjoy those all that content is free And please subscribe so you get updates there if we mention products, which I do if it's appropriate We can find those at dr. Jill health calm today my guest dr. Lauren Tessier Naturopathic doctor in Vermont her practice life after mold is in Waterbury, Vermont And the East Coast only formally certified Sears literate naturopathic physician. She is an expert I always always enjoy talking to her and learning things and you know guys There's a secret one of the best things about doing these interviews is that I'm always learning things as I'm interviewing my colleagues So it's kind of fun because I know we always get little tips from each other and it'll be no different today I'm sure so you're in for a treat and I just tell it was telling her before we started she's just got this wonderful demeanor and presence and Such a she's a great leader now with ICI and so I know you'll enjoy her enjoy the content and if you do like it Please share back to her intro Life after mold services patients suffering from multi symptom multi system illness complicated by comorbid conditions such as Multiple chemical sensitivity MCAS, which is many of you know Mass cell activation syndrome chronic infections including Lyman co-infections Epstein bar CMB, etc Dr. Tessier also provides clinical and corporate consoles to physicians and corporations looking to improve their Respective clinical and productivity outcomes. She has served as ICI. It's international society for environmentally acquired illness We'll be talking a little bit about that today because she's a president I'm on the board and it's a nonprofit organization that gets great information out a lot of patients asked me Hey, Dr. Jill, how do I find a physician like you who knows how to treat mold? That's a place to go. That's a resource and it's ICI dot org. That's IS EA I dot org You will find that wherever you're watching this video in the links and again We'll be talking a little bit about the upcoming conference and other things that are happening She has served as the president or actually roles of secretary vice president and now president And she also has a free e-book called mold prevention 101 And you can download that we'll be sure and give links to her website and All her social media platforms at the end of the show. So welcome It's so glad to have you here. Dr. Lauren It's such an honor. Thank you so much You are welcome. I always love to start with stories So tell us a little bit about how did you get into naturopathic medicine? And then also how did you get into mold and chronic because often I don't know about you But these things don't necessarily choose us. We kind of get drawn into them. So tell us more about your story Yeah, so then it can be very long and very short Yeah, so I was always driven to the service field In my undergraduate, I actually got a dual degree in health psychology and pre-med And then the time came where I was applying for med schools and there was a little bit of an itch So I was then like, I'm going to go nd nd and actually I found out about nd and it was like Yes, it hit all the marks especially where I was coming from a pharmacy school Massachusetts College of Pharmacy and There's a time and place for everything But there was definitely that resonant energy of I think I had one Urge some Nutri-Civics class with this amazing professor, Lana DeBork, and I believe she's still out there somewhere And that was one of the things that really flipped the switch for me. So I applied to naturopathic school and I decided on Basteria University out in Seattle I went through all the groups there graduated and returned back to New England and hung my shingle in my own private independent practice and originally I you know was set up as primary care accepting insurance and What really moved me towards that mold space was my town also known as waterbury, right buried by water Wow They had a flood in 2011 with Hurricane Irene And I was you know showing up a year and a half or so later and still seeing clients that were having really bad brain fog And fatigue and then we've come to find out that none of the naturopathic stuff was working right And found out that they had their offices and their basements and then one thing led to another and kind of just mold opened up in front of me um at the time, you know, I Come to find out was also living in a space that had mold issues and so the brain fog, fatigue, hormone disruption Autoimmunity, all those things you name it, I've been through it firsthand And so that was really I think what solidified it for me and is really able to Keep me in check when I'm interacting with clients because you know like having that first hand experience is like It's amazing what it does to being able to connect with people and also being able to stand by people And hold their hands through the process and be there for them. So, you know I it's like trial by fire And then one of the other reasons why I think Hey, I fell in love with mold, but then b I had a family member that when I was much younger I lost them to a very rare unimmune disease called Wegener's granulomatosis Yes And at the time it took them about 16 weeks in a boston regional hospital to diagnose them correctly and I remember going into their home with my mom and helping them clean up their space and getting them set to see them back in the hospital and It just always stuck in the back of my mind that there was mold in the apartment and it always a dialogue But you know my family and I about it. So I I think that there's a little bit of a emotional component too of having suffered a loss and who knows if The autoimmune condition was in fact due to mold or worsened by but for me There was always been in that thing and if I can help people get better and get beyond their living situation into a better, you know Health situation and that's that's really what I'm here for. So, you know, that's that's kind of how I got here and why I keep doing what I do Wow, so so many interesting things I want to comment on first of all It's so funny because I always resonate so well with my naturopathic friends And I have such respect because I feel like I've learned so much from you all That we didn't get trained in you know, whether it's colonics or castor oil packs or herbals or like it just so much richness Has come into my practice from what you you have learned and all my colleagues in naturopathic medicine have learned So I really respect that so greatly. Um, and I always say I had the heart of a naturopath because I do the same. I like I'm like Yeah Medical school and then acupuncture and then naturopathic and I actually applied to all those I could have easily gone and I you know, but the little trick was I was like, I'm gonna infiltrate the conventional system What I got I heard my story, but it was funny because I'm like, I'm the secret infiltrator because my heart is really Not all that bought in with the whole paradigm. There's some good pieces But so I always love and resonate with that training that you had and have such great respect for it The other thing is the um interesting like when you had your experience and kind of and of course the town Like you said when we've lived it It's like no textbook no lecture No class could really teach you on that level and I'm sure you've noticed this But when I hear the stories I start to just pick up these little clues that are very subtle And I'm like, oh, yeah, I either remember that and I remember in the beginning I would try to be really careful because I didn't want to take any of my experience and like Filter my patients experience or assume that there was like anything like mine But I'm sure you noticed too like I was shocking where there was auto immunity multiple sclerosis Gut disorders like inflammatory bowel and all of a sudden they present like a normal case that we'd see and you'd be like Oh, my gosh mold is underlying this kind of like your family member who had Wegners And again, you don't know for sure, but there is a high likelihood it was related And don't you even find like new stories or these incidents or like certain uh government institutions or prisons or schools You start to hear these stories about all of a sudden a lot of mood disorders or learning disorders or behavioral disorders And I now that we know what we know about mold I wonder how much this is affecting so many areas and when you have that filter like you and I do Don't you just see things that you have this like thought in your mind? They're like Yep mold is involved in that right right and you know, and it sounds like you you know Watching the filter that you're looking for I always tell people like Yeah, I have a hammer. I promise everything's not a nail. However, you know, I'm gonna try my best and I always let people know If I don't think you're going to be a mold I do more than mold Yeah, I'm actually trying not to but you know, if I don't feel like I Am equipped or it's a problem outside of my scope. I always tell people I'm gonna get you to where you need to be You know, like I'm okay with being a step absolutely on the path, you know, so Yeah, um, well, let's talk a little bit about auto muni. This is absolutely huge It's the fourth leading cause of mortality if we take so right now it's very siloed So we have rheumatology sees rheumatoid arthritis and we have neurology sees multiple sclerosis And we have gastroenterology see Crohn's and colitis So we have these silos and this brokenness of auto immunity into its silo depending on organ system However, the mechanisms are the same and I would say mold maybe the number one if not one of the most Common drivers. Let's talk just a little bit about that like, um, how does this First of all, how does mold affect the immune system and then how does that drive auto immunity? And then what do we do about it? Let's have this discussion a little bit for those of you who are listening and have auto immunity or know someone who does Right and so, um, maybe forgive me if people already already know these things. So maybe like a 20 000 foot Oh, yeah, let's start there because that way anyone listening can relate. Yes Yeah, so auto immunity is when um, your body loses track of what is truly yourself And what is truly something that should exist on the outside of the body And your body has a few checkpoints that it goes through To make sure that when you're training your immune system cells that they go, oh, no, that's my kidney I'm going to leave that alone xyz. So, um, we have a few different points checkpoints We call them and so what ends up happening with auto immunity is Some of these cells kind of slip through the cracks and they beat the checkpoints and then they get into the systemic periphery and instead of Knowing to leave these parts of our body alone. They actually will go and attack them and some of the thoughts about auto immunity Is that it's partly genetic partly environmental and partly Um, infectious and when you step back and you look at The fact that mold and fungi can be two out of those three You know, uh, it can be a environmental toxin That can also be an effective agent. You're kind of looking at like well, you know This this is potentially bigger than just heavy metals alone where it's just one factor So you almost have this auto immunity double whammy. So, um, you know Mycotoxins from my perspective seem to be Probably one of the bigger initiators of auto immunity I think of mold maybe a little bit differently than some of my other SARS train counterparts, which I believe you are you are also a SARS train So I actually think of them as two separate entities But with some overlapping and I think that there's some immune system confusion That can happen from kind of the SARS global inflammation around and then we actually see some direct auto immunity Causing issues with mycotoxins themselves Aside from SARS like we see in the animal literature that certain mycotoxins can flip on the genes in the animals in animal studies can flip on the genes that correspond with type One diabetes and also how she goes that would guide us So first thing that in the st. The animals that where we study and develop our drugs and all these things You know, we we have to try to a little bit more cautiously before we throw the baby out with the bathwater When it comes to molding on immunity, but I know I'm preaching to the choir I'm saying that No, that's a great explanation and so good to kind of get the framework and This is something I don't I talk a lot about my history and what I've been through But there's something I have I've mentioned, but not a lot is right after my mold exposure in 2015 I was diagnosed with type one diabetes Um, and again, I don't know if you even knew that but it's so interesting You mentioned that literature because there is no doubt my mind first of all I had a very strong family history of diabetes But it was more type two and it was family history and I had lived a really clean lifestyle as far as eating and low glycemic and exercise So that way I should not have any risk But what happened is again that I there's no doubt in my mind that mold triggered that I had positive GAD auto antibodies. I went to an endocrinologist. He said, yeah, this is type one My a1c was rising But here's the thing the really neat thing because once again, just like my Crohn's disease That's considered, you know incurable and I think it was just enough at the beginning Now had my pancreas had that attack for years It probably would have been permanent But I am no longer like technically diabetic and that's like another miracle because What happened is that detox from mold and then really working for a while? I had to go completely low carb low sugar I never had to do insulin and I did a few peptides and things that but I literally feel like I reversed the type one But back to your original point. I wonder how many people who are genetically predisposed Whether they're children or for my mind was considered the adult onset like latent onset type one because it was an auto immune in nature But it wasn't until I was in my early 40s where it manifested But very relevant because number one we consider that incurable number two There's no doubt. My mind mind was absolutely triggered by the mold exposure So, um, yeah, thanks for sharing that and I want to just give hope if you are a new onset latent adult type You know check for mold as a trigger because um, I'm a poster child for it being reversible Right, right. So let's talk more about auto immunity. So obviously these mechanisms. I love how you divide the mycotoxins from colonization Infections like even fungal infections and also mold itself because I think you gave a lecture that was talking about that as well Because we got the spores. We got the fragments. We get that Do you want to talk just a little bit about? How the mycotoxins affect the immune system and you mentioned that briefly but Where that lies in the auto immune spectrum? Yeah, so that's that's another thing and again, I Really crossed my teeth and my eyes when it comes to Any claims that I make and I like being very clear with people a lot of the information that we have is coming from the animal literature And both in the kind of biomedical field but also in our agriculture and veterinarian fields But again, these are the animals that we're testing our drugs on going through these joint developments and things like that. So We really need to consider the animal literature rather than proofing the animal literature and so When you dive into the animal literature about the interactions with mold and Excuse her mycotoxins and auto immunity. You start to see these patterns where mycotoxin exposure in animals are correlated with bumps increases in il 6 Which can be a precursor for another cytokine called il 17 And these two cytokines are a core component of auto immunity more specifically kind of The il 17 being the big picture one with the il 6 kind of like moving and rolling the stone down the hill to get things going and so not only do we see that Il 17 will go up with mycotoxin exposure But we also see a drop in something called our t rents and our drop and it's increased in something called th 17 So all of this alphabet soup if you guys can kind of put it aside for a second In our immune system We have different white cells that are responsible for different actions. And this is a very very super distilled Uh description of what they are but we have um th when i see th they're t helper cells. So that's what it's yours for there's th ones Which kind of walked the line of auto immunity There's th 2 Which are kind of the allergy picture and then there's th 17s Originally, we thought that if someone had more th 7 th ones and they tend to mean a little bit more auto immune But as some of the research has developed We've actually seen that a bigger predominance of th 17 cells seems to be much more correlated with auto immunity And our th 17 cells are not only involved in our infection defense process, but they're also involved in the development An exacerbation of auto immunity and what do they produce but that cytokine i l 17 that i mentioned before So we have seen that microtoxins will drive up that i l 17 leading to more auto immune issues Uh drive up th 17 those to help ourselves and make that stuff And then what they do on the flip side is they will actually suppress your t regulatory cells And your t regulatory cells are like the referee Of the immune system They will go in and kind of keep everything in balance make sure all the t helper cells are behaving themselves so We also see in conjunction with this t 17 and the i l 17 we see the t regs Kind of drop off or stop being as efficacious and We also see some of that in both Human cell studies and also the living animal studies too. So those findings definitely Have a hand in both worlds, which is interesting to see Yeah, thank you for breaking that down because again guys this may sound like a really complex immune lecture But there's some real simple ideas here that really are important And if you understand and of course with covet in the pandemic that we had last year A lot of people have heard about cytokines and they understand some of this more than they ever used to We can actually have a conversation that includes i l 6 and people like i've heard of that At least i've heard of it You mentioned this like control of t regs cells and i always like to talk about i'm like the bouncers at the bar They're like hey great great calm down You know, so i love that and so if you're thinking about this you got kind of the police You know or the bouncers are the people that are keeping the order and those diminishing molds too And and the infection or inflammation drives that t h 17 that dr. Tessier talked about And then it's kind of this out of control brawl at the bar and again It's good because it's like trying to fight infection, but it overdoes it and then accidentally attacks yourself. So I think that makes perfect sense even if you don't have an immunology degree You probably understood what we've been saying really important though because this is this is the driver of autoimmunity And if you keep the the bar metaphor going Ultimately that fight is going to pull in innocent bystanders. Yes, you know So those t reg cells are really just there to make sure that the fight doesn't happen and everyone kind of stays out of trouble So say someone comes in you and I both see this they come in with ms or they come in with Crohn's or colitis Or you name any autoimmune disease? Hashimoto's type 1 diabetes How would you do a workout to check if mold would be involved and then how would you do you treat? Let's talk a little bit about someone who might have autoimmunity and what you would do for kind of a workout. Sure. Um Let me take a step back and collect my thoughts about that So a lot of my clients end up coming to me as I'm sure they have you Dr. Cognan where They've seen many many doctors. They've been to the neurologists. They've gone through their pcp I mean heck some of them have even had the psych work up for impression on these things Um, my practice is called life after mold. So it does very much self select for mold issues So I kind of have that setup which is a saving grace a little bit in the dialogue with some of my clients So mold is really never too much of a question in our dialogue, but When people come in Because of their extensive health back history, they've usually already seen their neurologists. They've gone to a pulmonologist They have these things so all the important rule outs are typically have been done Or if they haven't yet I will send someone to make sure they go back and dialogue their pcp about getting appropriate referrals for when they need to go so With that being said always for me ruling out the worst-case scenario as with any responsible physician like yourself so, um after that we then do a really thorough history about current and past mold exposure and Again a lot of times it's people have had a historical issue And that's when we start to think of by humiliation in Any of the fatty tissues in the body or they might have a current one that they know of that they're working on getting out of so Um, when I do my mold workups a lot of it really starts with just doing a simple mycotoxin evaluation and If any of you are familiar with mold on here, which I'm sure many of you are Um, I'm sure you've heard that mycotoxin Testing isn't perfect yet and it's true. It's not but how I use it with people Is also understanding that Their environment is a core component already. So rather than using it from a diagnostic perspective i'm using it from For the screening perspective and also for a tracking perspective so I usually do a good amount of prep work before I even get people to take that urine mycotoxin test because that initial prep work Is required for people who are really sensitive to glutathione Which we use or at least I use for provoking people for that first initial test So sometimes testing for me doesn't happen for you know, maybe even one or two months out For a lot of books and if you're chemically sensitive it might even be upwards of three months to be free Oh couldn't agree more So I love that and this is a great time to talk briefly about the ICI So as clinicians there's three main labs out there that do urinary mycotoxin testing I'm sure like you you've used every one of them Maybe you can talk about just briefly who they are and then also What ICI is doing to help us just you know discern what might be our best method of testing because we've all been like Well, which one's best and You're just a little bit about the study that Sure So there's there's three major urine mycotoxin tests each have their own separate methodology or how they run the test Which also means that they have a slightly different ability to define what is in the urine So there's one company a real-time labs that uses an ELISA methodology for all the science nerds out there There's another one called great planes laboratory that uses liquid chromatography and then the third one is vibrant, which uses the microchip assay Because of my clinical setting and how I've seen it correlate with my clients how I really know it as a tool for my practice I tend to lean more towards the real-time labs, but they can all offer for us something If you come up positive, then there's something to work on there. It's really helpful. So That tends to be the major urinary once there is I believe my myco lap, which does a IgG IgM serology so looking at the antibodies to these mycotoxins and I've seen that come through the office a few times I have not yet quite implemented it in my practice just because I really Feel comfortable with the real-time labs and my clinical assessment. So The nice part about ICI actually it's more than a nice part a huge blessing that occurred for ICI back in November During giving Tuesday right after Thanksgiving was we did a fundraiser to raise research money to Check on the validity of these tests. So ICI will be doing one of the first split urine samples split urine sample testing research study with these different companies. So we will even get to see If the results are reliable within one specific specimen. So we're very excited about that and you know, unfortunately testing like this and research like this takes time and it takes a lot more money than I think people realize so We're excited to at least start there. We know that so many people have other bigger clinical questions with the results with regards to the application of these testing And we will get there. We will get there. So this is kind of the first step So we can say hey look we're on the path guys, but this is what we found out So it'll be an integral part. I think for a lot of excited again us president have been driving some of these These initiatives and it's so exciting because we all have similar clinical questions We're all in our little holes doing our thing. You know our silos kind of so it's so fun to collaborate because we can get across the country In different cases and and we all have slightly different opinions. Yeah, I'm always surprised at how aligned we are You know, like often when we really go into that clinical experience, it's more similar than different between all of us who are using So that's great. So, um, I will make sure in the links that you guys I'll share the testing this will be through your doctor. This is not something you can order on your own So you'd have to work with your doctor. I'll be sure and link the ici It's ici.org as well for if you want need to find a physician. You can look there for certified Docs as well, you know briefly just a little tangent. There's um, we're in the midst of certification process but is that The thing you'd recommend for patients like who are looking for mold docs tell a little bit about like Where they'd go. Is there a there's that find the practitioner on the website, correct? Sure There's a there's a get help page on the website that kind of auto populates a map there for folks who have Worked in our field for a while who are mold literate or have gone through other extensive mold trainings elsewhere. So And i've been really happy with everyone listed on the website. It's a great community and they seem to be Me too because of course you and I I mean at least for me I can't help everybody we get a lot of questions as you probably same thing are known for mold same as me So there's a lot of you who can't see me and it's so nice to know that we have a group like this that can help And then we can trust that most of the people on there all of them, you know have have training and in all of that so Um real quickly again another tangent, but let's talk about IEPs. What are IEPs? And how can I see I help with IEPs as well because that's a critical component of getting well Right, right. So IEPs are indoor environmental professionals These are folks who have been In the field for quite some time. I believe And forgive me because I'm not Overseeing that I say I'm branch of it, you know the IEP branch of ICI but I believe they need um 10 plus years of working in the field. So any IEPs that are listed on your website are Not, you know, Joe Schmoe has had a water remediation place for You know one year or something like that and the other part of us checking them out is they really need to um Be endorsed by a mold in our environmental illness Literate physician. So it's someone who has worked with these doctors before and really knows the in and out Each IEP is going to be different. Their background is going to be different Some of them are going to have very advanced degrees in building sciences. A lot of them will have Lesser advanced but they'll have the experience of the boots on the ground And I think that that's really the important thing to drive home here. We are really working To protect the people who are coming to seek help through the ICI listings So good and really as you well know This is like the number one thing that I need help with same with you probably because We can know there's mold in someone's environment But I'm not the expert to tell them exactly where it is or how to fix it We have to know a lot right like I end up knowing a lot about environment But it's not I'm always like you we need to make sure and what I've seen over and over I'm sure you'll have to is if you get the wrong inspector the wrong Remediator it can make a bad situation much worse either someone's been told two or three times There's no problem. You're fine. I think they're going crazy because they know their environment is not okay But they can't find the problem and honestly that is the critical component to getting someone well is that they have a Safe environment from exposure for the most part at least in order to heal right and I think Three things that I want to take home from just one statement alone is Um, you know look for an IEP who is willing to drill a hole in your wall And take an in-wall sample if they're not going to do it They have a huge potential to miss something big and this is coming from first-hand experience not just from being a physician This was an issue that I haven't been at home. Um, the other thing is Well, it's gone just like that it's gone Um It'll come back to me and we'll we'll double back to it for sure. Um But also making sure that your IEP is willing to answer your question of an aspect and If you can work with a third independent party separate from your homeowner's insurance Yes, yes, if I could say that a million times over I would and I have had first hand a mold inspector from a insurance company versus The person that I rely on for my clients and the results were night and day so always be aware of the biases of the people who You're coming in to To do your work for you Yeah, I've had I can't even tell you the number of patients you've had one two three four even up to five Inspections that have come back negative and I literally now if someone comes in we see the clinical picture Whatever that looks like that I have a suspicion that mold might be involved and I'm doing the testing to prove If they just say I had an inspection everything's fine I never trust that until I know more details And I will say I am not the expert to comment on this but I've seen enough that Air sampling alone may not be enough now. That's one amazing tool in the toolbox But I find often because what happens typically is a really nasty sticky wet molds like stachybotry scatomium Need a water source. They tend to be hidden They tend to have a water source and they can be stuck behind a wall under a floor somewhere And they typically unless it's like past hurricane and it's massively covering all the walls They actually typically don't get into the air and if they are in the air, it's a very bad situation So you can have very significant toxic sticky dark black molds In the house and the air sampling looks pretty good or even perfect, right, right, absolutely and Kind of taking it a step further There was a piece of research that showed that there is a significant amount of force that you need to like land On a wall in order to get the sticky heavy scores of stacking of the airborne So, you know all the perturbing in the world isn't going to do it unless it's in the right space or you know so I 100% agree with that and um From the other perspective too I think a lot of people have put a lot of investment especially From the service camp about your army must be less than two and without the discussion of this is something where you're taking One number minus a second number to get a result And if you play around with one number being bigger than the other and all this you can get what looks like a really safe Army, but it's dangerous if I'll get out, you know, I saw a army that had Something like a 500,000 score count in group one And the army Didn't look horrible. The army wasn't eight, you know, like So you really need to make sure that you aren't just depending on numbers because there's so many people who are looking for safe homes and They pull this army and they're like, I can't live here and I must use this down when someone's actually kind of vaguely gets it um You're going to miss many opportunities for potentially finding safer living so I Yeah, mold testing both in the environmental realm and in the medical realm is It's very difficult, isn't it? And we have to kind of like again This is where the science and the intuition the right and left bring come together because You and I as we've had experience like I love the science I'm like you I really base things on great science and as we don't have answers I continue to try to help to seek or add data to the pool or whatever However, there's an intuition to this and intuition actually comes from great science Some of the studies on gut instinct are like right on the money for accuracy Maybe more so than a scientific study on data points The reason for that is as you and I have these, you know, 5 10 20 years of experience We add this pattern recognition system in our brains and our subconscious can analyze in a split second Millions of pieces of data versus our conscious mind analyzing hundreds or thousands of pieces of data So there's this really complex system that we all have that are in medicine that we've honed And that's actually very accurate now. What I always do is I have a hunch or an intuition I I prove it with the science, but there are times when I'm listening to the story and I'm like I am pretty darn sure there's mold involved my office Staff jokes because I'm about 100 accurate with that like so far I don't think I've had a case where I've had a suspicion that we haven't found later Back to the army. If you heard that word, you're like, what's an army? I just want to prove you defined. So there's two main companies. You might have another one But the two that I use are I think in birobiotics and then mycometrics.com It's in birobiomics. Oh Birobiomics and mycometrics.com and you can order their dust samples So they basically give you a dust cloth you check dust in your home And they look for DNA in that dust of mold. So it's kind of a historical snapshot Again, just like anything. It's not perfect I do find it a useful tool number one because patients have access to it without an inspector if they need a Prescreen or they're looking for rentals or it's something that patients can get easily It's the number two. Like you said, I never even look at the army score It doesn't mean it doesn't have validity But I feel like it has a lot less validity than looking at the numbers and understanding what we're looking at And again, I'm not the expert but like you I can see patterns I always look for ketomium stacky some of the really nasty ones And if they're even like five or ten Even though that number sounds really low that could be very concerning because they're so Nasty, they're so toxic. They're the most toxic to the kidneys and the lungs and the immune system So you can get that yourself you can order yourself and then find a doc That can work with you or inspector inspectors can look at those too and then they can bring their own data They're infrared cameras. They're drills in the wall. They're moisture meters all the things that they have So Let's talk a little bit about pediatrics because you mentioned that you have a lot of experience there And kids are not little adults, but they do experience some of this toxicity What have you seen kids present with and how would you address a child who had a mold exposure? Sure. So pediatrics It depends on the age bracket, right? And what the child was capable of conveying and sharing, you know Little nuggets like really small little baby nuggets. We're probably dealing More so with Skin issues Colloc those kind of things that present obviously for the caretaker As we get a little bit older into elementary school age we're seeing Vision changes I see vision changes so often for kids where they'll almost get like a double vision but their vision will be completely normal Situational headaches where the kid goes to school. They have a headache. They come home behavioral differences depending on location versus mom's house dad's house school. It's not always the Social environment they're in and then GI stuff food intolerances And then we also see some of the breathing issues. We all get the allergic shutters We'll get the the nose salute. Is it the allergy salute where they'll do the you know, and you get the little crease there so I think once kids get a little bit older and they get to their teens and they have a little bit more Self-awareness it's easier to get conveyance of time and curiosity and stuff But um, those symptoms are typically what I see with the younger kiddos And then with them, uh, what would be the difference say you have an eight-year-old? Let's just take that for example. Um, how might you start with detox or treatment of an eight-year-old? sure, um eight-year-old again, I would probably go very gentle with on ramping them and I do provoke it in my testing and usually to Start with provoking. I do some biotherapeutic drainage or to prep for provoking. Um, I'll work with Bustle with it bustle of choline hospital series Maybe a little bit of melatonin and depending on if they tend to lean more GI or neural cognitive There might actually be some like lymphatic network that I'm working on with them. Um, and then After I get a concept of what is happening for the test That's when I bring on a binder and usually with kiddos for binders Um, we're talking charcoal, you know, I think a lot of people get really excited about the sexy Concepts of like oh clay for this. Yeah CLA for this and it's all based on animal literature And if someone hasn't studied adding folic acid to a 5 10 5 10 mound of brain and seeing how the force reacts It's not going to be suggested and I have seen charcoal drive down all the numbers across the board I love that you say that because what people don't know, you know like colster I mean like you said so sexy or whatever I personally in my journey. I used only charcoal period And I I'm I'm completely healed from mold and I'd never used colostyramine and even glutathione I wasn't able to take it for two years though the main part of my detox I use precursors and people are surprised to hear that because they all think in fact Don't you hear a lot of people like oh, I can't take that. I'm not I'm not gonna get well Right, they hear this that you must take colostyramine or glutathione or some sort of protocol I love that you said that because again in my own history literally charcoal has been the it factor That's it even now And there's there's even studies out there about how um, what is it okra? Yeah, opera does like a one one 16th of the job of colostyramine, you know, so Fiber is is not a horrible thing It's just making sure if there's one thing that I really push on for people's making sure that they have Be right and correct possible with it because you're not going to get the toxin onto the bile And then it backs up in the liver kicks into systemic. It's re-depositive. It's in these causes all types of issues. So um, if there's one thing in addition to the Whatever binder you want to use just making sure that those fossil Okay, let's talk a little about that because I totally agree and people are already asking questions What does that mean for like therapy and then also so fossil lipids first and then let's talk about the Enteropathic recirculation bile what do we do to stimulate because that's kind of an unsexy thing too There's bitters or castor I want to know from your perspective. What else would you do for that bile? secretion so first possible lipids and then bile Yeah, so possible lipids absolutely have to be brought on before in my opinion before you then start fishing on or playing or modifying bile um, I think of it as a roller coaster Metaphor like you you're at a park and you have a roller coaster and you have the roller coaster going through The line and coming back around and going to pick people up. So the roller coaster is the bile And the queue of people are the toxins and it takes Fossil lipids fossil coal me to get the people out of the line and into the roller coaster park And if you don't have that rate limiting stuff there Those people are going to back up that line and it's going to go all the way up the park to the parking lot Etc. Etc. So The phosphatidylcholine I use for a couple of different reasons sure. It's it's liver loving It's actually super duper anti-oxidant for the bio Kineculi all the hollow parts of the liver and the colbladder Um, but it's also needed to get those toxins onto the bile and then it's also protective to the nervous system too So there's a few different reasons why use it. I usually just hone in on the bio talk when I talk about it. So um thus possible if it's would be a core component and With the choline I usually use two forms. I use a cdp precursor for people Which tends to cross the blood brain barrier and then I use that kind of like final form Heavy just pull out fossil choline, which um from what I understand tends to Not cross the blood brain barrier as well. So I think of that as more of a liver heavy fossil choline When it comes to bio and bio production I'm sure every natural path you might be listening to this is going to be like But I I don't use I don't use bitters that often um Mostly because it's what does the bandwidth of my client? Yeah, it's my client going to remember To sit down and take the bitters and then we're tying the binder with the bitters and all these things and so I usually just trust in Colossus to kind in to like do its job So I just ask people make sure that you're having a fat containing meal and make sure That's a good fat, you know, and because of you. I know to not push hard on Coconut oil because it under talks to you man. So I've always carried that with me since I heard you speak about it um, and so I tend to go more um grass-fed Butters and geese and meats anything that is high fat for when we're timing those binders. So No herbs, but if someone's like, I really want to use herbs and I want to make them look okay. Like sure Let's do it. Let's try it. Um, but it's it tends to not be a core part of what I do with people No, I I agree because it really is like the perfect is the enemy of the good And that's what with these supplement regiments we could go crazy and have hundreds of things and every hour of the day And I always same thing. I'm like, okay What's gonna get you know, yeah, you could take that but what's going to be doable? How do we make this like a doable protocol? So that's great Do you recommend castor oil or coffee enemas either one of those things or just rarely or How often are you seeing those things depending on the person and depending on the case? I I like castor oil. I appreciate it topically for some folks. Um, I wish it did a little bit more Then I would expect or want it to do but coffee enemas Inspecifically for folks when you start doing the digging, it's green coffee Or lightly roasted their specific coffees that correlate with these enemy kits But those can be amazing for people because the cafe acids in those they don't stimulate people They don't make people feel jittery, which is really cool to see And then they help boost the glyphion production the liver through Um, there's no pun intended like don't need to put this any other way through like the back door because you're actually Accessing the back door of the liver through a separate circulation. So sorry for the back door No, honestly, I was it's so funny because again, I always joke because I'm an MD and MDs don't talk about coffee enemas But it's so powerful what I saw you've probably heard me talk before switzerland was there two different years And uh total detox and I saw these people that were kind of I mean really they were in their 80s They were not super healthy overall and they were just flying through these detox protocols And my question clinically was like what is so different? I mean first of all no emf clean food There's all kinds of things that were different, right? But what happened was everybody in the program was able to do coffee enemas nightly in their rooms and I was like, wow This is um, and they use we actually import coffee enema kits from switzerland because they're so easy to use And it's german coffee green coffee that has charcoal in it. So it's kind of a unique product You just mix it, you know in the the bottle and it's so simple. So I'm a huge fan of that as well This is so much fun. We have to do this again, but we're just about out of time. So I want to um, oh my gosh Like we have got so but let's talk just briefly about like any final words of if people I know a lot of people who are In the chat today Have had questions experiences in that any words like someone who's maybe feeling overwhelmed or hopeless That you would want to leave with people and then we'll ask about where to find you Yeah, yeah, I you know stop breathe and Find your support one of the hardest things is approaching mold without the social support and I know how mold can really um Shift your social relations with the people in your life and it causes a lot of undue stress If you have someone in your life that is there and supporting you You know Move towards that if you have people who are unsupported and doubting Really reconsider your relationship with that as you move forward if you know, what's right for you in your health You really need to trust yourself and Move in the direction that's right for you There are plenty of mobiliterate positions out there. I'm not going to be everyone's cup of tea Jill You might not be everyone's cup exactly. I can see person, you know, so Always find a position that you resonate with if you go in and you meet for the rest time. You're like, oh, this isn't it That's okay And so it's okay to shop around and find something that's a match the other thing that I'm for people to do is Move cautiously and some of these bigger online support groups Susie bees need to throw everything away in her house It's not necessarily your situation So well, I'm not saying stay in mold live in mold and you can recover and not seeing that by any means, but I have seen many cases where people don't have to throw away every piece and personal thing in their life, which is a trauma in and of itself so Always get a second opinion too for the home and how you can clean your items and It's okay to ask for handholding in that process With your ips or whoever's doing your remediation um, but you know Just because mold is there does not mean it's Horrible and everything's going to end for you. You just Really work to find your center and we are in a really great point in time right now under unfortunate circumstances that You have the ability to access tele therapy I think Everyone who's going through this should really be working with some type of counselor because the trauma of the illness and then the trauma of The relation to the home and then to your social connections Um, can really keep you stuck and keep you feeling really sick and prevent you from recovery. So that's kind of my My feel I so echo that and I really believe 100% of people who've had mold toxicity have to deal with the trauma Now some people can do the work on their own But I often recommend professionals and there's so many resources We we will have to do another talk on limbic system and how to um, because that's a real key even in my own journey When I started to deal with the because what happens is mold. It's a it's a physiological trigger It's not like an emotional trigger per se, but it triggers the same trauma response as another like, you know Abusive situation or some sort of trauma. So your body until you kind of unlink that You're going to be stuck in this limbic loop where your limbic system is like, ah, everything's dangerous. Everything's bad So that's part of healing And it can be done many many different ways Where can people find you? I know um, you've got a ebook. We'll be sure and share link and information But where can people find your information? Sure. So I'm a life after mold And that's the name of the website. That's the facebook handle. That's the instagram handle The youtube handle. There's a pin trust In the work still so um, you can find me there and I go in and out of waves of engaging my social media Kind of stepping back from it. So um, I do have some videos kind of lined up in the queue. Hopefully to release soon So hopefully I'll get ahead and I would just encourage you all listening go follow us on instagram That's where I put a ton and then I'm really putting a lot of focus on that So life after mold and mine is just dr. Jill carney hand come find us Hit hit follow there because you'll see all kinds of fun stuff. In fact, we just both posted today on this talk So I just put it on my story today. So Thank you. Thank you for this great jam-packed information. Always a joy to talk to you I'll be sure and link up here and we'll see you guys all next time. Thanks again. Thank you so much