 Hi, everyone. This past Tuesday, the Pregnant Workers' Fairness Act and 11-plus year effort to level the playing field for pregnant and postpartum workers became law. Federal protections were expanded for millions of people, thanks in no small part to many of the people you're going to see on this stage today. Due to the PWFA, employers must now provide medically necessary, reasonable accommodations to nearly 2.8 million people who work while pregnant each year. Our partners at the National Partnership for Women and Families calculate that this will include nearly 75 percent of pregnant Black women, the largest demographic covered under the new law, nearly two-thirds of pregnant Asian American, Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander women, six in 10 pregnant Latina women, just under six in 10 pregnant Indigenous American and Alaska Native women, more than half of pregnant women with a disability and more than half of those were economically insecure. A recent poll from the Bipartisan Policy Center found that 23 percent of mothers considered leaving their jobs due to a lack of reasonable accommodation or fear of pregnancy discrimination. This is a sweeping victory for those women who no longer need to choose between economic security or a workplace that won't provide them with these accommodations like the digital bathroom breaks. We hope the pregnant pregnant workers turn is that will allow more pregnant people the opportunity to thrive as it is their human right to be able to do so. We also hope it will pave the way for many of the policy advances we need to see in order to advance gender and racial equity through more investment and family sustaining policies such as paid family and medical leave, childcare and other elements of the care infrastructure. Today we're going to start our event with a firefight chat with workers who experienced discrimination and became advocates by carrying those powerful stories. That will be followed by a panel exploring how an unusual constellation of organizational partners pushing for change to help Congress get this important law over the finish line last December as part of the year in funding law will wrap up with an audience Q&A. We hope that this event is enlightening and we thank you so much for being here. Now I'm going to turn it over to Bridget Schulte, the director of the American Better Life Lab. Bridget. Thank you so much, Julia, and welcome everyone. We're so glad that you're all here to have this important conversation. As Julia mentioned, I'm Bridget Schulte. I'm a longtime journalist and writer and the director of the Better Life Lab, where we really lean into the power of story for narrative and culture change. And that's what we're going to talk about in this first panel. As the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act, the 10-year journey that it took really to become law and the role that story played in sharing stories. So what I want to do is I'd love to open it with you, Mindy. My very first encounter, if you will, with the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act and Pregnancy Discrimination was back in like 2014. I was at an EEOC hearing and completely, it blew my mind. It's like these were not stories that were in the newspapers. We didn't really know a whole lot about it. There had been this 1978 Pregnancy Discrimination Act, and everybody figured it was done. We figured it out. And I ended up writing a story about you. And I suppose I should do this before, you know, I'll introduce the panelists as I bring them in. So, you know, Lindy, you are a Kentucky police officer. You're also a better balanced community advocate. And so I'd love to bring you in here. Tell us your story and why the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act is so important to workers like you. Yeah. Yeah. And thank you. It was the very first story that that was written about me. And it was long, I think nine years ago now. So it's a lot of progress since then. But in 2014, I was pregnant and working as a patrol officer in my city. And I was pushed off the job when I requested light duty when just the physical strain became too hard on my body. It became unsafe. Once I requested that light duty, it was denied to me. There was a citywide policy that nobody could work with any restrictions at all. They also told me at that time that I wouldn't have health insurance by the time I delivered. And it was a very difficult and complicated pregnancy. So that added stress was really terrible. And just the emotional stress and the financial stress on my family because of that was just really awful. So what did it up happening? I know in the story that we sort of left and you were worried about losing your health insurance. And you did mention the stress. What did it end up happening? It certainly made your pregnancy much more difficult. You'd also run out of unpaid leave. So you wouldn't have any time to recover after giving birth. What happened then? During my pregnancy, I contacted a better balance. So they were so helpful for me through the entire process. I really can't stress that enough. But I stayed working there. I finished my pregnancy. My son passed away a couple hours after he was born. And then eight weeks later, I returned to my job. Because like you said, I didn't have that time accrued. I needed to be at my job making money. I'm so sorry. And I'm so sorry to hear about your passing away. You know, to stressful and difficult time that you didn't even have time to grieve for. So Natasha, let me turn to you. And Lindy would also like to have you comment as well. Natasha, can you share your story? So let me introduce you as well as I bring you in. Natasha Jackson, she lives in South Carolina. She's a mother and a better balanced community advocate. And you lost your job and ultimately your house while you were pregnant when you requested light duty and flexible hours. You know, that just seems so completely unreasonable and so punitive. Can you, can you tell your story? And then I'm going to ask both you and Lindy to reflect on, you know, why you decided to become advocates and speak out about this. Or I was working at a local rental furniture store. I had been there a little over two years at the time that when I found I was pregnant. The store was all male. I was the only female there. So I was already hiding the pregnancy because I wasn't comfortable. But after a while you can't hide it. And I asked to have a short schedule change like maybe an hour difference because I had severe morning sickness. I wanted to come in like an hour later and I stayed an hour late to make up that time. At the time I thought that that was going to go through okay. But once it got up the ladder did to the district manager or whomever I just remember being put on a conference call in HR and some management. One of them told me to go get a job working at a grocery store bagging groceries somewhere. I just just remember I just had this feeling like this isn't right. Why should I have to go get another job and I can't be where I've been for two years just because I'm pregnant. I cried for help by like putting my story on a blog at the time which led me to meet the guys at a better balance and NPR did a story and I just kept telling the story even though I didn't receive any help. At that time I had two kids already. I was married but because of the financial stress and everything that was going on with once I got put out the job I ended up backing out on buying a house because we didn't have the income. I eventually ended up homeless and divorced all because it's one day of being pushed out of work because I was working. You know it just sounds unbelievable and both of these stories happen at a time when there was something called the pregnancy discrimination act. You know so Natasha and Lindy can you talk a little bit about why you decided to become active? Why you decided to share your story and what's that meant along the way? I won't lie that I was very hesitant to at first this is not my comfort zone at all but I also really trusted the people at a better balance and they explained the importance of storytelling and they explained that if I you know really wanted to try to affect change in my city that this was going to be necessary and they were a thousand percent right. I truly believe if if I hadn't shared my story if I hadn't put you know a face on the story or a face on this issue that the policies would still be in place and they would still be hurting people in my city. Wow thank you for that and Natasha what about you? I agree with what Lindy said and I um I just like I said I knew something wasn't right. I have daughters I have two I'm one now 20 years old in 111 and I couldn't imagine them having to go through what I went through because you decide to start a family or want to you know you become pregnant and you're told you can't work and I just felt like I had to keep talking I had to keep telling somebody because somebody would listen and eventually it led to meeting the president and this bill being passed and even though at the time I wasn't helped or compensated in any kind of way I'm just glad that I'm able to help other people and I have people come to me now and I just before the panel got off the phone with someone who's pregnant she works at a T-Mobile store and they were giving her some static and she's pregnant with twins and it's her first time and they're making her uncomfortable so just to be able to talk to her let her know that this bill passed on Tuesday or took effect on Tuesday and what she could do and for her to find comfort in that so like oh I'm going to stand up for myself and I'm going to do this and do that that's the purpose of me telling telling my story so it can help others. Love that that's so powerful well Dina let me bring you in at this point so Dina Bax she's the co-founder and co-president of A Better Balance just a wonderful wonderful leader and partner in this work and Dina you and I were the ones that were talking when I was still at the Washington Post and you brought me Lindy's story and I had a difficult time getting into the newspaper we ended up putting it in the health section you know trying to find a place for it but can you talk a little bit about you know both Lindy and Natasha are talking about you know these really horrific and almost mind-blowing stories of what what pregnant women pregnant workers were going through can you can you talk a little bit about that why stories were important and how you know how you thought about them as you began this journey of trying to get this this new law pass. So thanks Bridget and Lindy and Natasha it's so great to see you both and I just really have to say that you're bravery and commitment to sharing your stories over the years along with many other women has truly been instrumental to passage of this landmark civil rights law and it's just been a total honor and privilege to work alongside you both and it certainly kept me going during you know difficult moments in this journey to sort of remembering what we're fighting for but I mean yeah this this movement has been grounded in the lived experience of workers like Lindy and Natasha this has never been a policy solution and specifically probably you know back we were hearing from workers who with just egregious examples of this treatment at work who are being denied water bottles and you know at work and wound up in the ER due to dehydration or you know a care worker pregnant care attendant who submits a doctor's note with a lifting restriction and immediately sent home and then at 17 weeks pregnant you know winds up and moving into a sugar and you know this was really outrageous and what we were really wanted to be able to do was provide immediate support to women in this situation so they could protect their health and keep their jobs but the way the law was structured we couldn't do that and it was just really frustrating because you know workers with disabilities were entitled to that immediate support and also just frankly it was just so easy to do and yet women the economic consequences were so devastating for for the women that we were talking to so you know in terms of the power of story I you know I did I wrote this this op-ed in 2012 that I think inspired other women to come out I mean there were just countless other stories that came out after that op-ed but it also led to you know an awakening Congress to say hey wait you know this is a this is a problem that we need to solve you know I remember you know Congressman Nadler you know immediately along with other members of Congress really jumped to saying hey we're gonna we're gonna fix that and so we knew that this wasn't going to pass overnight in Congress and so we really moved our work into the states and working with truly a wonderful and diverse set of partners nationwide work to pass pregnancy accommodation law state by state and we won bipartisan support in 26 states so we recently released this report called winning the pregnant workers fairness act and we lay out some of the history and what we believe what some of the keys tactics and strategies were to passing this legislation and you know I would say the power of story really comes up in every one of these tactics right I mean our number one tactic I would say is for this conversation on this panel is you know center worker stories with respect to lindy lindy started her journey you know first by speaking out in her own legal case then she became a key voice for the Kentucky Prevent Worker Fairness Act and that bill passed with overwhelming bipartisan support and notably in Congress she then you know her story was shared by a Republican lead sponsor Bill Cassidy who who shared her stories multiple times to try and garner Republican support similarly Natasha you know his voice was hugely influential in the passage of the South Carolina PWA she testified she wrote up ed same with lindy testified wrote up eds and then ultimately members of Congress and then I think about Armando Legros who you know was pushed out of her job as a armored truck driver worker in New York City and wound up also becoming a tireless advocate for the PWA but Congressman Nadler you know has said over and over again and especially at the bitter end when we thought this bill might die like we need to do this for lindy for women like lindy so it mattered to members of Congress you know it mattered to sort of moving the needle and changing hearts and minds and explaining through the worker story we were able to make the legal health maternal health and economic case for the PWA that grounded my initial thinking in the op-ed but really it's been developed over the years but that is truly all derived from worker stories and the last thing I'll just say Bridget on this is that you know worker stories didn't just help us convey the need for the law but it also helped us illustrate to lawmakers its effectiveness right because I said we didn't pass this bill overnight we worked state by state and on that like New York City when New York City's PWA passed in 2014 we immediately used that law to help a woman named Floraba Espinal who worked at a Bronx thrift shop who was forced out and you know who was basically sent home without pay indefinitely because she asked for a transfer because she was at heightened risk of miscarriage right citing the New York City PWA she immediately got her job back so we shared stories like hers with state and federal lawmakers as well as with business leaders across the country to show that a statutory fix can help provide the clarity that employees need that helps keep them healthy and that employers need to keep you know women healthy and attached to you know pregnant and postpartum workers healthy and attached to the workforce yeah thank you so much for that Dina you know it's uh you'd mentioned the the report that you just put out I was just gonna put a little PSA here well it's backwards but it's got winning the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act it's amazing I printed it out which was a mistake because it's a it's a it's huge but it's great and and it really does talk about the power of lived experience so Lindy and Natasha let me just go back to you with your stories because again you know I think that when this you know Dina you mentioned your your op-ed in 2012 that I remember reading in and the New York Times pregnant and pushed out of a job and really shocked shocked that this was happening um you know Lindy and Natasha when this was happening to you at the at the time um you know did it did it also bring that sort of sense of shock like well wait a minute I want to keep working I need to keep working I can keep working with some reasonable accommodations why is this so difficult you know what we're you know can you talk a little bit about that I was shocked yes and there are there are female police officers all over this country um most you know not all but most departments have some type of policy in place so to keep everybody safe it wasn't safe for me to be working on the road for as long as I was for me my BB my co-workers none of us it wasn't safe um and it actually was Dina's op-ed that um kind of led us to her my sister found it and reached out and just just said we need help and Dina responded right away and um but yeah I was I was completely shocked absolutely what about you Natasha I was definitely shocked um but then it helped me to realize that this was actually the second time that this was happening to me I want to state that because that played a vital role into me actually wanting to tell my story um with my very first child I was working at a pizza hut and I was hiding my pregnancy I was young and I needed to work and um my stomach began to show and I came in one day and they they told me that I had been terminated and they wouldn't give me a reason why and I was still doing my job and doing everything coming in on time and so once this happened again a light bulb went off like this just isn't right um so I was more or less angry and wanting a solution um because I just felt like this this this can't be happening again and at that time I wound up living with people and I had a rough pregnancy I almost delivered early when I wasn't supposed to be you know delivering yet so this was this whole thing the second time where I'm not going to just sit back and let this happen I have to tell somebody and I have to find somebody who's going to listen and I have to figure out a way that this doesn't happen to other people you know Dean if I could bring you back in here as well you know and Lindy and Natasha please jump in as well and you know I sort of mentioned this in the at the at the sort of the top of our session here there had been this 1978 pregnancy discrimination I guess most people thought that we'd solve the problem you know did you run into that kind of pushback it's like well you know why do we why do we need this why do we need something additional when we have this other act and was you know and how what role did story play in helping people understand it's like well there is that law but it's super complicated you know because that's one of the things that I found it's that you know being able to explain that really complicated law and why it it didn't always work sometimes the people's eyes would glaze over what did what did you find you know in in terms of of saying that that wasn't enough we needed more right so certainly the power of story here was so so important look the pregnancy discrimination app provides crucial protections to workers who face blatant pregnancy discrimination in terms of hiring and firing and and their terms of conditions of employment but the law has proven limited particularly for women in low wage physically demanding job especially women of color who I said earlier need a media relief to remain healthy and on the job and this was what was so frustrating to me the idea that you need to litigate and muster evidence of discrimination to prove somehow worthy of an accommodation as basic as like light duty or an hour schedule change or extra bathroom breaks it just it seemed that formal that formal approach to equality wasn't working for the women that we were hearing from and yet there was this widespread perception that it you know was good enough that we needed to maybe just do more summit more education or maybe workers were confused about what the rights are but fundamentally I really believe that the framework wasn't meeting the needs of of millions of of women and particularly and as I said in low wage and a male dominated jobs who needed immediate relief and I would you know it's it's um you know it's interesting the Supreme Court case young versus ups came down in 2015 and there's this I did you know and that we were we were for a long time saying over and over again you know we need the pwfa and cited stories of women who who needed this immediate support but you know all the the public conversation shift shifted to the Supreme Court decision and folks were hopeful that the young would would help clarify and and help you know offer more support for workers in need of accommodations but you know that did not happen and in fact you know it created more confusion um more challenges for workers certainly I'm sure you'll hear from the chamber certainly confusion for employers about what rights and their obligations were and so you know at a better balance we started tracking these cases because there was this sort of political lack of political will at that moment to move the pwfa was this idea like oh I think young that was the win fix the problem but like we knew I remember in 2016 I wrote a us news piece like days after that decision saying young is not enough we need clear affirmative rights for for women especially in these low wage physically demanding jobs in order to truly guarantee equal treatment um for for pregnant and postpartum workers but in 2019 so we were tracking these cases and we we realized that at that point we published the data that showed that two thirds of pregnant workers were losing those cases in court regardless so it was you know not only was the standard flawed but even under that standard women were losing their cases and um that I think that data I think lit a fire um under members of you know really became like I think was um became really apparent that you know it was time for a legislative fix and you know I think within the year you know there was or months I think later there was a our first congressional hearing in 2019 on the pwfa um where we really talked about the limitations in both the pda and the ada and centered worker stories about why we need a legislative fix um and so you know I I would say also you know another pivotal moment came shortly thereafter when the US chamber came on board um you know our years of working in the states and working with business leaders and garnering their support helped us prepare for those negotiations with the chamber but it's important to note that workers lived experiences really informed those negotiations on from our perspective too both in terms of understanding what would really be feasible um you know it's not just words on paper but like really thinking about how whatever um you know off language we were offering or whatever our compromises were were willing to make like how that would impact real workers and how this would really what we were on we never wanted to compromise the integrity of the bill unfortunately we didn't but it it was really I would just wanted to put a pin in it also influenced our thinking in negotiations with business and and ultimately played such a huge role in passage of of the bill in congress all right thank you for that I'm just because we're talking about story Peggy the the young versus UPS the story behind that which I also was able to write about when I was at the Washington Post is Peggy Young worked for UPS and when she became pregnant her doctor asked her not to have to lift heavy boxes and make heavy deliveries um for a certain short period of time so she asked for light duty and she was you know refused even though at the time there were other you know guys who you know had back problems or herniated discs and they did get light duty so all sort of unfairness sort of baked in and you know made that the standard with all that let me ask one last question of all three of you and then we'll move on to the next panel again I want to be mindful of time and I know this is such a rich conversation and I'm grateful to all of you for sharing all this your stories your lived experience you know and this and this wisdom but you know here we are it's a day where the Supreme Court has overturned affirmative action where one year after the Supreme Court has overturned a 50 year settled law of reproductive justice and reproductive rights for for women we are in the middle we are one of the few countries advanced economies that don't have any kind of paid family leave we have unpaid leave which the research shows leads to more inequality because really the only workers who can use unpaid leave tend to be the people who are in higher wage jobs where there's usually an employer provided paid leave we don't have if you look at comparisons of advanced economies and how much we invest in care infrastructure like child care or home care we're really at the bottom of the barrel meanwhile we have families who are really suffering we haven't raised the minimum wage you know federally since about 2009 so families are struggling you know we need more not only family supportive but really family sustaining policies public policies workplace practices so I guess the last question I want to ask all three of you is to reflect on like what what can we learn from your experience from sharing story the power of story from this kind of journey in this fight for pregnant you know pregnant workers fairness act what can we learn to move forward to kind of move the care movement care conversation forward so that we really can help more families more and bring more equity in our work work and care you know the I want to call it justice because we need a lot more justice when it comes to work and care in this country what I would love to turn it over to the three of you I learned that the battle isn't over just because the bill wouldn't affect on Tuesday and there are some changes being made however there's still a whole lot of work that needs to be done so I'll never stop telling my story I'll never stop talking to people this whole experience has made me teach myself about other laws and get involved in other things like you said here in South Carolina the minimum wage is still at $7.25 an hour so if an employer is giving 10 bucks they feel like they're doing their favor and they're not so I learned that we must keep going we must keep fighting thank you so much Natasha Lindy yeah final thoughts yeah just looking back because I thought about a lot today just about where this all started and the biggest takeaway for me is that this just me telling a story all I wanted was policy change in my city I did want it for myself but I also wanted it for women coming after me and thankfully that's been rectified there's been many healthy pregnancies since then they were all treated very well so that was really important but then seeing how that led to the Kentucky pregnant workers bill and then years later on how federal laws that really solidifies the importance of storytelling to me that this started with me as something very very small and it has grown into something that I honestly never imagined that it would grow into honestly so that's really inspiring that's great Dina I'll give you the last word yeah so inspiring I'm just hanging on to what they both said that's awesome um I mean I mean provide some hope that you know in some really difficult times facing women and families with so much more to do that we could pass a major civil rights bill at you know a solution to a real problem you know makes me think that there are passports you know that in for other you know very important issues that need you know you know congressional action at ASAP and that you know rooting issues and the lived experiences of workers I mean I would again I would just say that our best you know having the discipline to tell the stories in a way that illustrate your most effective policy arguments is really important but when you do that it's incredibly powerful and I think stories you know transcend politics they I mean have the power to unite us as humans um they really elevate this to a moral level um all of these issues and so that gives me hope that you know more is possible on the horizon well Dina thank you so much it's it's you know I'm a big believer in the power of story it's one of the reasons why one of my favorite quotes it's anonymous I'm not sure who said it but it's the shortest distance between two people is a story you know we know that lived experience is often what it takes for people to learn or change attitudes or behavior but that's a big ask to have everybody have you know their own personal experiences so story and seeing ourselves and other people can be a powerful way to to to push change so Natasha Lindy Dina thank you so much for sharing your stories your wisdom and your insight and at this point I'm going to turn it over to my colleague Vicki Shabo she's she's one of the fellows here at the Better Life Lab and has been really a real powerhouse in these gender and work family justice issues for quite some time so Vicki over to you thank you so much Bridget and Natasha and Lindy and Dina of course what a what a terrific panel thank you so much for sharing your stories and your wisdom and I think we're going to pick up a lot of threads here and add to the conversation we'll do that for about 40 minutes and then we'll have some time for Q&A at the end so my name is Vicki Shabo I use she her pronouns I'm a senior fellow here at the Better Life Lab and it's been my pleasure to work with all of the organizations that we're about to talk to over many years in all sorts of gender equity and workplace fights and campaigns I am going to introduce the panelists and then we're going to dig in I never know the best way to do this whether to introduce everybody all at once or whether to go one at a time but in order to have a free flow in conversation once we get to the panel I think I'm just going to read quick bios for everybody and then we'll jump right in so first we have Vania LaVille she's a senior legislative counsel at the ACLU's National Policy Advocacy Department and she's served as the organization's chief lobbyist and campaign strategist for women's rights and disability rights she's led several successful legislative campaigns on behalf of the ACLU including the Pregnant Worker Fairness Act the Pump for Nursing Mothers Act which passed at the same time again after a long fight as Pregnant Worker Fairness did and abortion rights for women in the military so Vania thank you and I know some of your technology might might cause challenges so we are happy to have you with us and we'll figure it out next Mark Friedman is vice president of workplace policy at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce he was closely involved in the chamber's efforts in drafting and promoting the Pregnant Worker Fairness Act and he handles the chamber's response to paid leave and other labor and workplace issues so mark thank you for being here we've done one other event on this platform together before and it's great to have you back. Next Emily Martin is the vice president for education and workplace justice at the National Women's Law Center and she leads the center's programmatic efforts to advance gender justice at work and at school she's helped craft the initial she helped craft the initial Pregnant Worker Fairness Act in 2012 and has been deeply engaged in legal and policy advocacy to advance the rights of Pregnant Workers for over a decade so thank you Emily and we've had the pleasure of running into each other multiple times in the last week and so that's super fun same with Sarah here so Sarah Broughman is national policy director at a better balance where she works to expand policies around the country that ensure workers don't need to choose between caring for themselves and their loved ones and their economic security she's grateful to have been a leader in the advocacy efforts that led to the passage of the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act and state-level PWFAs we're going to talk more about that in a little bit and last but certainly not least Stacey Braboy is the senior vice president for public policy and government affairs at the March of Dimes where she leads the organization's development and execution of federal and state government affairs and public policy agendas Stacey oversees a nationwide team that advances legislative policies and external advocacy efforts so as you can see we have a panel with an incredible array of experience coming from different places all of which led to the passage of the Pregnant Worker Fairness Act and I think that's one of the most remarkable things about this effort was how broad and diverse the coalition was for how many years the coalition stuck together how different organizations came from different places and added to the effort and ultimately led to a historic law that will affect up to 2.8 million women per year on estimated estimated 2.8 million women a year so we're going to do this panel sort of initial questions we'll have some time for back and forth as a group we really had a nice conversation in preparation and so would love to recreate that here because I think it just yielded a lot of really really interesting insights a lot of us have been talking for years and years and I think we maybe all learned new things in our prep call so we're going to endeavor to do the same thing here we want to talk about what lessons came from the Pregnant Worker Fairness Act and how we can build on this for more passing more family sustaining policies so Vanya assuming your audio is working I'm going to turn to you first again you're at the ACLU so this is an organization that works across a broad range of issues and you have vast experience with grassroots engagement and mobilization as does the organization I want to if you can talk a little bit about how you are able to get by and internally and what contributions you're proudest of with respect to the ACLU's work on PWFA and I'll just say as a point of personal privilege I sat in many rooms with you over many many years and every single time you brought up this bill and so I know that this was a personal priority of yours and an organizational priority and just tell us how you were able to bring your organization to the table to use its power to pass help pass this policy well thank you Vicki can you hear me okay yes thank god I'm in Florida and there are thunderstorms in the background so I just never know what's going to happen so bear with me yeah so thank you and thank you especially for convening us you know most folks know I can talk about the PWFA which by the way I call PUFA I can talk about PUFA for hours literally so Vicki give me some kind of flag if I go on too long I tried to head it down as much as I could you know I've worked on numerous campaigns at the ACLU I've been at the ACLU for 16 years and and this one was really special it was incredibly grueling too but it was really special and worth every gallon of blood sweat and tears that all of us you know put out there in terms of the question of how I got the ACLU to devote some resources to this it's never easy to get resources from the ACLU as you know it's a multi-issue organization I think there are like 80 of us constantly asking for resources to address everything that's happening in the states and in congress and PUFA rose to the top I think you know for a number of reasons but I wanted to lift up three one is I was able to point to a really diverse and powerful coalition right like we had a lot of interest represented in that coalition and we worked together and stuck together for a long time you know we often joke and we say you don't often see the Chamber of Commerce the ACLU and the Conference of Catholic Bishops on the same side of any issue you know and I think that really resonated to the folks internally so the coalition I mean pointing to our coalition really helped the fact that so many red states had passed state PUFA really made a difference too you know I was able to point to those states and say listen we can get members of congress to support the bill because they have the cover they have the cover that they need to support it because folks at home you know their own state lawmakers their constituents voted and supported the bill so we thought we could really build republicans support that we needed to pass the bill and the third thing I'd lift up and again there are lots of reasons I got the support but the third thing I would lift up is what folks talked about in the previous panel the story we were able to want to real people who wanted to work who wanted to support their families and couldn't and congress could intervene but we also had the right kinds of stories right we had stories from rural America we had stories from Alaska or trying to think if it's Nebraska West Virginia we had stories that could resonate with the republicans who were trying to reach and ultimately we knew we would get democratic support and this is all about how do we get republicans to say yes but the truth is I would not have gotten the $650,000 that we spent on PUFA if we didn't have a good house vote like we all knew I knew the coalition knew that first vote in the House of Representatives had to be good had to be really good couldn't have been just good or mediocre it had to be really good and everyone in the coalition worked really hard you know from preparing for the hearings holding the hearing and all the activities that we undertook between you know I think all of 2019 and part of most of 2020 to get in a really good place for that September vote and it was spectacular right PUFA passed by 329 to 73 and I think there was something like 101 or 103 republicans who voted yes I was always really great with these numbers she has them at the top of her head I always forget what the numbers are but I remember it was like 101 or 103 and I think the entire republican leadership voted for it I mean that's when we knew that this thing had legs and I knew we needed that and once that happened I was able to ask you know ACLU to open up its checkbook a little bit and you asked like what are the things that I am most proud of and this is a really hard one because every department in the ACLU worked on on this legislation you know development legal digital calm talent engagement organizing business development like everybody contributed and tapped into their networks and the things that they do to get folks to support PWFA so this is a really tough one but I didn't want to highlight a couple of things one is we hired a firm to do polling whose clients were predominantly republicans so a lot of the senators that we were trying to recruit like had hired this firm to do their own polling and it was not cheap but we knew we needed credibility among republicans and having a poll from one of their people that said to fit off the chart supportive and more folks would support them member of congress if they supported put foot like that mattered so that was one contribution we made we subsidized the lobby day and the entire coalition worked on this lobby day right and it was tremendously successful we flew in people again from red states it wasn't just the real states but we flew in folks from indiana west virginia yeah west virginia is still red state you know we brought folks in who could tell their stories we had babies we had t-shirts we you know we really tried to create and treat the core and have folks talk to the members of congress face to face and share those stories that we talked about in the previous panel the other thing I would say is that I thought was an important contribution was the engagement of our affiliates I mean this is something that you know the ACLU has it not many organizations have but we have affiliates in every state and that allowed us to tap into folks when we needed them so when we realized that senator warlock and senator hasson were going to be really important we realized it a little late but we realized they were going to be really important we were able to tap into the ACLU of george and the ACLU of new hampshire we were struggling to find that additional republican co-sponsor you know the ACLU of alaska along with the national whip association like put together this tremendous team of women who talked to senator mccalcy staff about the need including someone who was in way rural alaska and I think that put the issue on her radar in a way that we hadn't done before and literally a couple of days later she said I'm on board as a co-sponsor you know there's the NYCLU in New York the director there's been there I think like 25 years she knows Schumer so we engage her to engage with him periodically so I think our affiliate structure really helped the critical time and the last thing I'll say and I'm running out of time the last thing I'll say is you know our organizing team and our digital team again I've been here a long time at the ACLU and I don't think we've ever sent as many emails on one issue as we did with pwfa you know it was just a constant stream at different strategic points to tell people this is what's happening like this is great this happens this isn't so great because Schumer hasn't brought the bill to the floor and we encourage people to call and to write and to make sure there was a steady stream of constituent engagement saying you know wtf why hasn't pwfa passed yet and our digital team and our organizing team really led that work and made sure that pwfa remained kind of front and center I'm gonna stop there sorry I know I ran a little long no no no you're you're good you brought up so many different points Vanya I think that are important to this I think just to give the audience some context in case they don't know you mentioned the initial house vote that was overwhelmingly strikingly bipartisan and I just want to remind folks where we were when that happened which was in the midst of an incredibly contentious political time where almost nothing happened on a bipartisan basis especially in the house and so to just underscore how remarkable that moment was and how surprising I think especially to people who haven't been following as closely how surprising it was to have such an incredibly overwhelming bipartisan vote was really pretty incredible so just to provide that context for folks also how long it took to get to the place where there was a hearing and there was there was movement on the bill I think is something else for something that was supposed to be a gateway issue a lot of us thought about it that way as a gateway to other bills or something that would be easier a light lift it just it took a lot of work and a lot of years and on that note I'm going to turn to mark Friedman because one of the catalysts in moving things along was the ability to move the bill forward with the support of the U.S. Chamber and some of the other business and trade associations that came to the table and so you know mark obviously having the chamber and the business voice was critical particularly in reassuring Republicans that this was not harmful and actually would be helpful for businesses to have a national playing field and also just to have some clarity so I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about what was most critical for catalyzing the chamber's engagement and what implications you think that has or what lessons are there for future policy fights and unusual that fellow coalitions well thank you vicki and happy to be with you all just a quick little note on that bipartisan vote some of us were sort of taking bets and having a pool as to how high the republican count would get nobody had it topping 100 you know 50 would have been a victory so we were in some ways even more surprised and you know that much more gratified that it came out the way it did what I'd like to focus on is you know how the bill came together and why we were able to support it the initial drafts of the bill were not really balanced they didn't reflect the employer's concerns and credit to just about everybody on this call we were able to come to agreement on a bill that was a very balanced bill and solve the problem for the employer community and you know dina talked about the young versus ups decision i was quoted in the new york times piece saying i would defy anybody to read that decision and understand what the employer obligations are with the employee rights were coming out of that decision as a complete model and so you know employers are generally driven by a concern of avoiding litigation and that young versus ups decision just looked back it was going to create more litigation so if we could clear things up in the wake of that we thought it would be a good thing and you know once we found a bill once we came together on a version of this bill that we could support we were happy to move it forward and do what we could to get it done you know the final votes were a reflection of everybody's input you know Chuck Schumer isn't really going to worry about what the chamber thinks you know at the same time we were able to get senator cassidy and other republicans to come on board and help them understand the nature of the bill i will say you know the previous panel talking about the power of stories certainly laid a great foundation i mean it's nice to be able to say i'm going to support a bill that's going to help people and you know employers want to be on that side of the issue but they also need something that works for them and and how they operate and so this bill reflected both of those concerns and and we were happy to push it forward great thanks so much mark and one follow-up um this came this was like an interesting point that came up in our pre-conversation so we've talked a lot about the state the state victories there's now 30 states in dc and five localities that have past pregnant worker fairness bills and from an organizing perspective from a congressional perspective this was a big deal and sara and emily and others will talk more about that but interestingly and it interestingly from your perspective you were saying you weren't hearing very much from employers about that and that wasn't as much of a factor and i'm just curious if you can go into that a little bit because on some of the other issues we work on together like paid leave i do know that the state's variation is a big deal so if you can just reflect on that for a minute sure um well you know you raise a good good issue and a good contrast in the case of the pregnant workers fairness state versions we were not hearing from companies about having difficulties working in the different states where these laws exist it's a much different playing field when you talk about the paid leave discussion and companies having to manage their paid leave programs within the different states and not being able to do something nationally the different state pwfa bills were clearly helpful i think as finding others have said in giving members of congress certain cover for supporting a national bill that was similar to what they already had in their states we know that was the case in Kentucky for instance um and you know i know i'm sure it played a role in some of the other offices that we talked to um so there was value there it just wasn't the same value that um the question of different state laws in the paid family leave areas um you know shows us super super interesting um well i think come back to this discussion in a bit but i'm going to turn next to emily where the national women's law center anchored a lot of the work to build a data driven case worked really hard on the state laws um and works across a range of topics both in dc and and outside and state legislatures i'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about how polling and research played into this campaign and what other lessons you take from this work for the other issues that the law center works on whether equal pay or pay equity some of the education issues you work on child care or others um so i i feel really lucky that i've been part of the pregnant worker fairness act uh conversation since its first and earliest days back in 2012 and as part of the national women's law centers work to support and move this bill and other bills like it in the states um we definitely over the years including most recently in the second half of 2022 and the final push did polling which showed as fania described the aclu's polling showed overwhelming support around this issue across um ideology 97 of democrats 91 of republicans said that guaranteeing accommodations for pregnant and postpartum workers was important those are really big numbers um that is obviously not a bad thing in pushing for a policy change um it's also not that unique there's a lot of issues i work on that show overwhelming support maybe not quite that high but close to that high when you talk about strengthening equal pay protections for example or making child care more affordable and accessible what i think was especially important in addition to the polling and related to indirectly the polling was the proof of concept that we were seeing in the states um and so i get to think about the timeline a little bit the pregnant workers fairness act was introduced in congress in 2012 it was really the first bill that looked like this there was some sort of limited state accommodation laws they've been around for a lot of years california had passed the law not too many years ago but it was sort of a moment that brought new attention to pregnancy accommodations in 2014 the national women's law center worked with advocates in west virginia around the state pregnant worker fairness act which was almost identical in the federal bill um and not only did it pass the first year was introduced it passed unanimously and that was sort of a light bulb moment for us for us at the law center and i think more broadly in this work that this is an issue that actually has incredible power that people don't want to vote against the idea of letting pregnant workers sit down if they knew during the day um that if you can get to a vote you can it is very hard to vote against this bill and that is in significant part because of the power of stories because this is a a simple issue to understand no matter where you're coming from um so west virginia 2014 passed unanimously we worked in delaware that same year and passed a pregnant workers bill unanimously with robust championing from both sides of the aisle the next year in Nebraska we worked with a lawmaker who thought it was a message bill and it ended up passing unanimously and so that proof of concept of the power of this issue to unite folks and the power of the stories to drive people i think was an incredibly important lesson along the way and what that taught us was that in congress if we could get to a vote if we could get onto the floor and either the house or the senate that we were really optimistic about what would happen and the work in the years that followed 2014 and 2015 to our first house vote in in 2020 was all about getting to that point of getting to the moment where people had to say yes or no and the experience in congress demonstrated the power of those stories and the power of this issue and so what i take from it in thinking about other issues which sadly have become more contentious and more partisan over the years is that there are slices there are pieces there is potential to find the issue to find the story to find the policy solution that really does capture imagination in this way and that can unite people who don't necessarily usually work together while it's not the same i think about the work that has really has really shown such momentum in the states in recent years about prohibiting employers from relying on salary history and setting your salary which helps close gender wage gaps and i think it's another example of a of an issue where people can see that in their own lives can feel the fairness of it and that can thus have a lot of power for policy makers and so that's the lesson that i take that both that stories are powerful and that in a moment where it's really easy to be cynical about whether policy offers solutions in a place of deep divisive partisanship where it's really hard to move anything but sometimes it's possible to make people's lives better that way yep that is that is great um and a perfect segue to sarah i think yeah what was i think what was so surprising and so interesting is the vote was overwhelming vote was overwhelming again and then we waited for a really long time until we could get this bill across the finish line in the senate and sarah you were um deeply involved in with others and convening the coalition and thinking about how different organizations could play different roles inside and outside um in dc and states and i'm wondering if you can talk a bit about the coalition and how it came to how it came together where there were um how it functions and what you think the greatest successes might be especially those that are translatable to other efforts thanks vicki um and it's a really exciting moment to be here with you all it's pwfa week the laws in effect it's already starting to help people as we heard natasha say right just before this call so it's a really great moment to reflect and i think if there's one word to take away about the success of getting the pwfa done it's persistence it's being relentless to get this bill over the finish line there was no way it was not going to pass at the ends of 2022 and that's for a lot of different reasons and you heard dina share and lindy and natasha share about the power of story well that wove its way through everything that we did everything that the coalition did and it was critical um that was front and center always um whether that be in ads in digital um campaigns that we were doing everything permeated with that as the center vanya mentioned the lobby day the eclu and the coalition organized we had a community advocate come to that lobby day she spoke and shared her story with her legislator he agreed to cosponsor the bill on the spot because that is the power of story and when it came to the coalition it was also about knowing when to apply pressure strategically respectfully and firmly um there were some really and i think others have referenced this it was grueling it was taxing there were some really hard moments where we had to think through what is going to be um important in getting this this bill across the finish line and sometimes that means putting some pressure on our lawmakers because they have many different priorities our priority was getting pregnant workers fairness act passed getting these protections in place for the pregnant people who we know needed them asap um so that was our priority and we needed to make that very known and we needed to make that known constantly right so just from a better balances perspective like putting out reports constantly um to amplify the issue and doing those in partnership as well right so we wrote a report with the black momma's matter alliance after doing a listening session with leaders from nine states black women leaders in nine states um talking about what this bill would mean to them to their communities um and really lifting up the importance for lawmakers about the impact on black maternal health that this that this bill would have so doing that constantly at the end we were putting out a lot a lot of ads um in a lot of different places and a lot of us doing that vanya mentioned the aclu of new hampshire and georgia because those two states were really strategic putting out an ad in the new york times that a better balance took out and that was also in partnership too because a lot of the women that signed that were from various organizations um but that was the power of story as well and where you amplify different stories and then there were that many of us have mentioned this but the coalition was very very diverse you had labor organizations you had business associations also we don't talk a lot about those two groups being on on the same side of certain issues all the time but they were as well civil rights groups racial justice groups faith groups um and maternal health groups just so many different groups and it it wasn't just that and we calculated there were about 700 advocacy organizations that worked on pwfa over the years but it was how you deploy different organizations um to different key constituencies um meaning you know certain lawmakers don't want to hear from certain organizations but do want to hear from other organizations and so it's really important that they hear from many different messengers it was very important for a lot of lawmakers to hear that the chamber supported the pwfa um and that various religious organizations supported the pwfa um that was really really critical in this and the same went for lawmakers on both sides of the aisle and many different kinds of organizations um and so I think it was about uh relentlessness um of of so many um and then there were also and it was and and I'll give another example too like we probably did 20 sign-on letters maybe in just 2022 alone at the end by the end we were like do we need to keep doing sign-on letters but we're like yes if he didn't if they weren't going to bring it up at this month they were going to get another sign-on letter from us and they were not going to stop until they you know we were not going to stop until they um they brought this bill because that's the other thing is until it happens it hasn't happened and so you have to rely on one another um as a coalition to say until we see President Biden sign that bill until law we are continuing to keep pushing together um and the last thing I'll say is on the states as well um the long overdue report that Dina mentioned um was we did a ton of research around the young decision and of cases but half of that report was actually looking at every state where pwfa had passed since 2012 um the first in that in that series was New York City the New Jersey then West Virginia as as Emily mentioned an on and on and on up to South Carolina where Natasha testified twice mind you Tennessee Kentucky like we mentioned um and pulling quotes from Republican and Democratic members right Delaware Colin Benini was the sponsor Republican sponsor there amazing quotes from him that were incredibly helpful with sharing with Republican lawmakers um and all of them passed with bipartisan and nearly unanimous support if not unanimous support um and that's just unheard of um in so many places um like South Carolina like Tennessee like Kentucky um and you also really had Republican champions um as well right and I really have to say in terms of Congress as well you know we had very devoted champions um probably because they heard from us so much um as well as really caring about the issue but that was really critical and that was the power of having all those voices descending upon them so thank you so much Sarah yeah that's great um and so one of those important voices was the March of Dimes and the data that you all had on maternity care and maternity care deserts um Stacy as the leader of the maternal and infant health uh sort of space eight leader in the maternal and infant health space especially in research talk a little bit about the annual reports that you share with offices of of of Congress and how offices have relied on that and drafting bipartisan legislation how did you use this data um to drive the message to lawmakers and the media on the importance of passing for network of fairness so so Vicki let me first say thank you on the behalf of March of Dimes for allowing us to participate um today and then also just thank you my my fellow colleagues and panelists um in celebrating this PWF a week and being able to get this act over the finish line and and definitely hearing Sarah's without calling names hearing everybody's comments and hearing the stories that were shared of lives that were impacted and how they became voices and advocates um it just it makes me proud to be a part of this coalition team it makes me proud to to share in the day let me just share that March of Dimes because we advocate on behalf of moms and babies and because of our stance in terms of being uh nonpartisan um what we brought to the table as a part of the pwfa coalition is we look at our studies and we look at how um we're able to show how accommodations as simple as getting the extra bathroom breaks um or being able to drink water allowed for repriving of standing all day could help prevent uh premature births and low birth weights we were able to show um data that pointed to by allowing accommodations to birthing people and their babies will allow them to experience a range of more positive outcomes and would have a negative impact in some cases on miscarriages in uh and premature births and so what we were able to do every year March of Dimes reports a we publish a routine routine publication which is our annual premature birthing report card and in that report card um it details the summary of maternity care deserts in great states it shows information for specific congressional you could look at congressional states not necessarily the districts which you could look at your state and you're able to look at what the letter which are great is what the impact is the impact of how it could affect someone that's in South Carolina someone in Georgia or North Carolina and we were able to share this data um with the executive branch with our legislative branches um as well as in our states about why it was important for us to have advocates talk to their legislators um to get them to support pwfa and let me to share that data and because of what we've done in terms of researching and being able to show the impacts of ypwfa would change the course of a person's life a birthing person's life we were able to demonstrate ensuring health a healthy pregnancy if it's at home or if it's at if it's at work we were able to use that message and that message and that data resonated um with congressional members it resonated with some of the bill sponsors and I we believe also helped to secure additional support from many congressional colleagues as well so we were able to also not only utilize our report card the data that was there call out specific pieces and highlight that we also participated in many interviews um we placed our ads um we did other interviews that kind of talked about why it was important to take action um we did our own call to action so that we could get our advocates and that's in the space to be able to call their members at the state and also at the federal level to promote the importance of of pwfa and so what we know by looking at the data at marcha dimes is that without accommodations um they're the birthing people and their babies may experience a range of negative health outcomes and that is increasing the numbers and the data shows miscarriages and uh premature and low work low birth weight babies so we believe um having pwfa joining the coalition being able to push for it was important to how we have an impact on moms and babies across the country thank you so much Vicki I will add you know having this having having this ad having this legislation passed and then having the president to sign it into law it definitely does help with um our current maternal health crisis that we face in this country and so we know that there's an increase in terms of the numbers of deaths related to uh pregnancy and negative outcomes and so we believe and know that looking at the coalition between our data and what pwfa would do and then also listening to the stories that were served that were shared at the beginning of the panel actually solidifies um why it was important for us to join the coalition and join the fight and actually be here to celebrate um the great work that everyone has been able to accomplish that's amazing yeah and hopefully success beget success and I really appreciate what you said in terms of the tangible impact particularly as we've just passed the anniversary of the dog's decision and the impact that that's had on people's choices surrounding pregnancy and childbirth or lack of choices as the case may be in many cases um so I'm gonna open it up now I'm not sure if we're bringing back uh the other folks that were on somebody can can tell me if we are or not but um we're opening up to q and a's um but yeah uh you know folks have said a lot of things here um and I want to give the panelists actually like a time to respond to each other because you all have worked so closely together for so long um so anybody want to contribute Vanya I know you you have some thoughts that you wanted to share um and I see we're bringing Dina back which is awesome um so Vanya go ahead yeah I wanted to say that um all of our issues have important stories right all of our issues we would talk about child care we talk about paid leave we all have stories um well it definitely was a critical part of Pufa's passage but there are lots of other pieces too right and I don't want to us to convey that you know everybody has to go and look for stories that stories is the heart of it I don't know if stories was the heart of it I think it was an incredibly important part of it but there are so many other pieces of it um that I think it's worth talking about and the reality is I do think finding common ground with the chamber opened doors but I do think on the other issues I work on I'm thinking who's that voice I need to come along that hasn't been with us that might open a door like how do I rebrand I'm working on another bill I won't name but how do I rebrand the bill so that it it opens doors that weren't open before which I think the the chamber helped do um and again the coalition the the diversity and the kind of complete commitment to showing up week after week and devoting resources and willing to make some tough decisions at different points you know there were times where our coalition disagreed on things there were times we we weren't all on the same page about how hard to push our friends you know the ACLU has this well folks at the ACLU love to say we have no permanent friends I don't love that statement I think it's I don't think it's nuanced enough but this idea that you know the democrats are our friends they are but they have to be held accountable too which is what we face towards the end of the year that almost doomed the bill and having a strategy for that um you know there's lots of different pieces I think that led to this um and don't want to over hype stories are they up they are critical yeah I was gonna agree that I think that um lots of pieces were important including this a broad diverse coalition that um that came together with a lot of good faith I disagree with Mark the original bill was unbalanced but I think that we were able to sit down together and have a good faith conversation about what their concerns were that was really meant to try to find solution rather than to sort of posture and each other across the table that plus a willingness within all of the groups that were working together to respect each other's red lines and um it's not as though there weren't internal disagreements about strategy and approach and moments of tension around those internal disagreements but at the end of the day I think there was a lot of mutual respect on each other's red lines which made it possible for us to work together well having been mentioned I figure I'll just jump in here um yeah I mean the bottom line was I think everyone came to the table trying to figure out how to come to agreement um and as Emily mentioned we were you know we had to respect each other's priorities and and sensitivities and I think we all looked at it in that light but always with the idea well we want to get to a solution here I mean let's just face it the chamber didn't come to that table saying we're going to blow this thing up I mean we came to the table saying let's work let's figure out how we can make this work we could easily just step back and just you know thought this or oppose it or done anything else we you know we could do but we were in there and we said we want to find a deal um lots of different people came to the table in good will looking for that deal and and we found it um it was it was pretty remarkable I mean you know a lot of us have been around this town a lot of times and don't see those types of breakthroughs and this was this was a good one so we were happy to be part of it and um you know contribute to the overall success I'm going to take the point of moderator privilege here to ask a question which is so oftentimes in legislative negotiations there are starts and stops and sort of unusual allies coming to the table together um it feels like this one was very much on a trajectory of once you got to the table you all kept going and I'm curious if you can talk a little bit and I think there might be different perspectives on this or maybe not from Dina and Emily and Mark in particular how did you know that it was time to be at the table that there was potential to move forward um and was there ever doubt or sort of a retrenchment in this long fight well I'll just speak from the chamber's perspective I mean we looked at the bill and we thought at the end of the day it's a good thing to have women stay in the workplace and help them get their accommodations um you know as I noted there were parts to the original bill that we weren't crazy about and we wanted to figure out if there's a way that we could improve the bill and and that would give us comfort with it and and want to be on it so the discussions ensued and you know we saw what happened um I I can't say there was a great you know light bulb moment we just thought this was a good bill that we should be able to work on and let's see if we can make progress and I'd also add that there wasn't overnight like we had some initial conversations with Mark um where they they were promising enough so that we kept each other's number but that didn't lead to much of anything I I think those conversations were for the young versus UPS decision that may have sort of muddied the waters further and shifted the chambers calculus but part of it was willingness to keep talking over the years even when the first conversation was not terrible but didn't lead to agreement yeah I mean I would echo Emily I think that's right it was just an open and very much a good faith conversation and willingness to really hear what each you know the other perspective other's concern you know it's it's very easy as an advocate to think you're right it's a lot harder to genuinely think about and respond to the concerns um of the business community and others and I said you know we came to those conversations really prepared from negotiating with business groups in the states um and so I just want to underscore the importance of preparation um you know Mike Mark might not have understood this but we from his perspective there's like sure let's talk from ours you know we wanted a strong bill you know but we learned we we knew already sort of where areas of misconceptions lied around sort of what the bill does or doesn't do and we needed to be prepared to make the strongest arguments possible not only to not gut the bill but to actually go further than the ADA and offer stronger protections for pregnant workers um because of the limitations in the ADA and we knew that from the lived experiences of workers and you know also the case law of course so I mean I agree I think it was just you know this really mutually respectful good faith conversation that you know wasn't you know seemed effortless but required a ton of work in preparation to I'm sure on their end too to make sure that they were comfortable but we were comfortable as well. I just want to say one quick thing I know Sarah wants to jump in but a quick moment of clarification I hope nobody thought the chamber was coming into this to try and gut the bill you know that we were not looking for a way to because clearly nobody you know on the other side would have supported that outcome so we didn't think that was a feasible approach we wouldn't want to see that so we were looking for a way and Dina I think expressed it well to figure out where we could come to agreement understanding each side's priorities sorry. I think oh no no that was thank you Mark and I think we definitely felt that very in a very real way um and just to underscore a couple of points that were made and I think this also can be related back to worker stories but in a kind of different way which is that we knew where certain lines were because there were state level PWFAs that at ABB for instance we were already working with workers on helping them understand their rights under these laws understanding how the laws worked and what where we could be compromising at the federal level and where we really couldn't and the bill maintained I saw there was a question um so did the bill change based on these conversations and the answer is yes um but from an advocacy advocacy perspective um it would the integrity of the bill remained fully 100 in tact and in fact there were some elements that were really strengthening so um because there was clarity like Mark was saying that was needed both for workers and employers in the bill text itself but I think that piece about the that's not necessarily the the sharing of worker stories but that's how worker experiences factor in in policy campaigns to craft really good really strong policy. That's great Sarah thank you and that actually we only have three minutes left so I want to just do a quick lightning round of a question for each each of you if you want to answer which is um what is the one kind of lesson or insight or aha moment you take from this fight that you think might apply to another fight and whether that's a civil rights fight or a so in a in common security fight a child care fight whatever it is um what's the one thing you take from this and I'm gonna start uh start with with Stacey actually because we uh you're first on my screen here uh really quickly agreed 100 what Sarah said and I will tell you take the the takeaways for us is persistence collaboration um and persistence again excuse me awesome uh Emily I'm gonna go to you next but winning is possible you know sometimes doing this work it's hard to remember that winning is possible and this is an important lesson both for the specifics of what we achieved and for realizing that we can make progress awesome um and uh Sarah you're next going back to the persistence that is key it's working hard it's answering every question that is asked of you it is not taking no for an answer up until the very last moment and it's working through disagreement as well really needing to stay at the table with everyone and build trust so that when those moments those difficult moments happen you can work through it for the good of the greater cause awesome mark um I would say find the sweet spot there are deals out there on just about everything that you've ticked off um and there is a sweet spot there where all the parties can get together um and it's going to take effort it's going to take swallowing heart and sometimes saying oh my gosh oh my gosh we're green we didn't think we were going to agree um but find that sweet spot because because when you do as Emily said success is possible and and I think people could be surprised at how much can be achieved if everybody comes and looks for that sweet spot more to come on that for sure uh Vanya I'm going to go to you and then D and I'll leave it to you to close this out um I would say come up with a pretty long oh can you hear me yes oh good okay I would say come up with a really long menu of um tactics you know we did some really interesting things with pwfa um you know not just the lobby day and the digital ad but we did some other things behind the scenes that I thought were impactful and helpful I don't know if you can still hear me but my screen is gone we can hear you okay awesome yeah Dina I'm gonna pass it to you um for the last or second to last word I mean my colleagues just made so many excellent points I just agree with with everything that was said the one additional point you know what it was just really emphasizing the importance of value based messaging I think this idea um that you know no worker should be forced to choose between a healthy pregnancy and a safe recovery from childbirth or pumping at work and earning a paycheck um really really resonated starting in 2012 up till today and I think that you know it um we sometimes get you know policies strong policy arguments matter story a strong legal case matters you know being flexible being nimble being strategic being relentless that all matters um but you know just keeping you know not forgetting the power of value based messaging to resonate with people across you know the political spectrum super helpful um thank you all so many more fights to come we have paid family on medical leave to win we have wages to raise we have child care to provide vicki vicki vicki that fights agreements agreements I like it we have common ground to find on all of these things that will strengthen economic security and bring equity for everyone and create a stronger economy so thank you so much to the panel and to the folks who are out there listening today I'm sure any of us are here to answer questions that you might have offline we have resources for you I think we'll do a follow-up email and um thank you so much and have a great rest of your day