 Last month, the topic de jure was emotional bids. And that really is the genesis of what we're going to be talking about today, which is the science of connection. Well, and I have to say, you know, for as long as we've been talking about emotional bids, even I learned a lot last week, and I was able to, you know, why I like doing the podcast is when we take a topic like that, we start asking questions and we start going down those roads and usually illuminates some some other areas that maybe I possibly hadn't looked before without giving it that much attention. I think it's very easy to get caught up and, oh, these guys know all this stuff. So they got it figured out. And the way I equate it is there's a professional golfer win every tournament. Yeah, we're striving to get better. And that's the whole point of the show is we're learning along with you guys how to sharpen our social skills all based on science. And the emotional bid concept was foreign to a lot of us. Everyone understands connection. So we're going to delve deeply into connection. But we want to start with this study, because this is a phenomenal study from 1997 social psychologist, Arthur Aaron, and his team performed an incredible study. He and his research team paired students into duos and then they gave them a series of questions to ask each other for 45 minutes. Now, half of the pairs were given the factual, shallow, boring talk, small talk, conversation questions like, what's your favorite holiday? What's your favorite TV show? The other half, however, were given questions that started off factual, but gradually became deeper. So started with small talk, but then they start pulling away, peeling away here. Like, what's the role of love in your life? Or wins the last time you cried, right? Adding a little bit more vulnerability with our answers at the end, the participants were then asked to rate how close they felt to their partner. As it turns out, the pairs from the second group form deeper bonds. It seems pretty self-explanatory, but many of the participants from the second group started lasting friendships. That's what's so fascinating about this. So understandably so, small talk doesn't get us there. But the power of these questions and getting a little vulnerable was such a strong connection for these students and participants that in the longer version of the study, the two participants even got engaged a few months later. Well, and to go along with that, and this is what's great about good science when there's a controlled group and so it's the group A, group B. And so to discuss relationships and friendships with a group who hadn't been through this exercise, right? Aaron's team also surveyed students who didn't participate in the experiment and asked them to rate how close they felt to the closest person in their life. Aaron then compared those scores to the ratings of the initial participants who had asked each other the deeper questions. This is great. So amazingly, the intensity of their bonds at the end of the experiment rated closer than the closest relationship of the lives of 30 percent of similar students, a 45 minute conversation created a connection that was perceived as closer than the closest connection than someone they had known for years. That is mind blowing. Yes. And and think about the closest friends that you've ever had. Let's go back to this. And I would I would argue that for most people, the those early relationships as a child, because you're growing. I don't think you have a choice but be vulnerable because you don't know any better. And so everything is unfiltered. And perhaps it's like the sleepovers that you had when you're in fifth grade, where everyone is there discussing the girls that they liked and the teachers they hated and all the stuff and how deep those friendships last. And I and I think a lot of people roll through high school, having that bond of leaving or even college where we are going to meet every year to rekindle our friendship and see each other. And because of how deep that is. And I even know when I look at Facebook or social media now, there is still somewhat of a kinship of the kids that I went to high school with, even though I don't talk to most of those people anymore. Well, it's it's funny because your example, right? Hate, love, these are strong emotions that we're feeling as kids growing up. But as we get to adulthood, we start to build this stoicism. We hold back these emotions, but it's the showcasing and sharing these emotions that is that connection that we're looking for here. So these questions that were asked, right? What's the role that love plays in your life? Or when's the last time you cried, right? These are strong emotional questions, not the surface level, small talk, boring stuff that everyone thinks leads to connection. Well, later in this conversation, we're going to talk about the levels of risk and vulnerability that goes along with this. But as you get older, you you get to a point where you don't want to take on any more damage as a human being, because that's what life's going to throw at you. And the more damage you sustain, the more you start tightening up on your vulnerability, because it's it's a lot of work to get through, especially if you have a family, you have a career, you have people to depend on you. You can't be just taking damage left and right and then getting knocked around off of your game when you have so many people dependent on you. So it becomes more and more difficult as you get older to to make friends to have those connections, which is one of the things that a lot of the older guys, when they come through programs, maybe possibly who have now found them being single after a long time, or perhaps just as they've gotten older, their friends have now paired off or have moved away or dove in careers and are not putting themselves out there anymore. And that's and it gets more difficult as you get old to make those connections. Well, here's the craziest part, right? A 45 minute conversation with a complete stranger can connect you closer than the closest connection you have in your life right now. That is nothing. Nothing. That is nothing. But we all get in our head that you got to spend an inordinate amount of time with someone to be connected, that you have to go through these crazy hoops and all these different experiences. It doesn't work that way. What we're talking about here is vulnerability. And I know it's a scary word. It's loaded with insecurity, vulnerability. I don't want to go there. I can't show people my insecurities or my vulnerabilities. I have to project this persona that's perfect. And a lot of times social media is driving this because you hop online, you hop on Facebook, you're on Instagram and you're seeing everyone's perfect snapshot of their life, the way that they feel they will be perceived at the highest level of value. So all of a sudden you're looking around and you're seeing all these signals from people of their perfection. Well, it makes your imperfections even more scary. I don't want to show that side of myself. I don't want to let people know that I'm failing on the inside or I'm struggling or things aren't going the way I want them to go. But guess what? Perfection doesn't lead to connection. No one connects with the perfect version of you. And the other thing about it, I think that it because everyone is so riddled with fear and insecurity that when they can find anyone who's going through the same things they are, they they want to connect it a person so they don't feel alone in the struggle. Right. It's and it, you know, and if you're going through all this stuff, let's just say you are going through a hard time to go on to social media. That's a one to punch. Yeah, it's just so you're already maybe a bit down on yourself and looking for some answers. And then you see all of all these people live in these amazing lives and got to disconnect and understand it is just that that they're posting those perfect lives. Yeah, it's a snapshot and it's a highly curated, highly filtered snapshot of their life where they are trying to project the perfect version. Now, what's going on behind the scenes to get to that photo, to get to that video, to get to that post a lot of us don't see. Well, to go along with that, let's let's break that down a little bit and ask a few questions in an area, right? So we live in Los Angeles, Hollywood, and we see a lot of the behind the scenes that what goes on to those social media pictures. Myself, I'm an Instagram husband. I've been known to take a few photos for Amy. Yeah. And and how many times let's let's go back to the apartment we had met drama in a few years ago. Good old tower. Yeah, and we would see girls sitting at the pool, taking selfies, like obsessively all day. Yeah, all day. And and of course, because we know those girls, we know how many of those pictures actually ended up on their Instagram one. And so it's and when you are able to actually see what goes. What is behind some of these online profiles and makes you allows you to feel a little bit better about it. Because first of all, if I I'm certainly not sitting there all day, taking pictures all day to get that one perfect one. So right. So there's that, but also that these lives aren't perfect. And the amount of work that goes to. Projects, perfection, project up the perfect lifestyle is is ridiculous. Yeah, it's it's an all day shoot for a couple photos. And everybody does this. Men, women, we all help poppers. How many pictures does poppers get before he is constantly passing the phone back to me, take another one dead, of course. And we all get hung up in this. We all and we talked about this with drama as well. You know, you post a photo and it doesn't get as much lift or likes as you want. And all of a sudden you're feeling I got to delete it, right? This this is clearly imperfect. I have to delete it now. We've heard the idea of vulnerability connects. We've all heard that we need to be more vulnerable. But you know, there are levels to that vulnerability and the idea of dumping all of your baggage out onto the table and saying, take me as you will is not something that we want to do at the start of an interaction when we're starting to build that connection. So let's talk about these levels of vulnerability because quite honestly. If we know that connection happens when we're vulnerable, well, let's build a roadmap to that vulnerability. So we're not digging in our bag of tricks and pulling out the deepest, darkest secrets when we're at a lunch meeting with potential business clients. So in order for vulnerability to happen, we're going to have to there's going to have to be some risk involved. And that's what's scary about all of this. So the first level that we're discussing is lighthearted, fun, amusing anecdotes about yourself and the world around you. So level one, light disclosure is lighthearted, amusing anecdotes about yourself and the world around you. Now, what is an example of this? I think I've used this on this show many times and I'll just go with that. So, AJ, if I was to tell you a story about being in third grade, cafeteria hanging out with everybody about to shake my chocolate milk, only in that moment to know to realize that I had already opened it earlier. We have some emotional bids there of embarrassment, surprise, possibly a humiliation. But also with that story, you're able to connect with all those emotions with me. And yet I'm able to to put to be vulnerable about that. But if there is little risk in that story, why? Because of time removed and I'm over that situation. And if you're still crying over spilled milk, we got problems, right? This is a grade school anecdote. So we're pulling a piece of our past that shows a little imperfection. It doesn't have to go into the crazy DUI story where you got arrested and there were your parents were involved and in the whole town was upset. We're talking about simple stories here that showcase a side of you that is not projected on social media, is not what the world sees. And what's great about that is the minute that you tell that story, the person you're telling it to is like, oh, wow, I can't believe that happened. That happened to me, but except it was in this manner. And so now they're sharing that story. And now both of you are being vulnerable on a light level. But yet not enough that either could be manipulated or persuaded in any way. And what we're sharing on is that little humility, that little embarrassment that we've all felt growing up where we made a silly mistake. And that emotion is what's starting that connection. So when we're illustrating these stories and we're talking about light disclosure, we're not talking about the logical I was in Miss Smith's classroom and it was third grade and it was a Tuesday in early September. That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about adding color to the emotions behind the experience, delving a little bit deeper into that as you illustrate the story. That's where you want to focus your storytelling to start this vulnerability ball rolling. Yes. Now, once both people have conveyed those stories and are feeling matched, you're now at a point where if you want to go further, then both parties can feel good about it. And what comes next is level two, medium disclosure, which is beliefs, opinions, feelings and ideas about yourself and the world around you. So now and when when I say the words, beliefs, opinions, feelings and ideas about yourself and the world around you, it's how you see things coming together. And that has been colored and put together through your sheer experiences in life. Yes. Which means that mine are going to be different than yours. As they should be, right? I mean, we're talking about vulnerability here. We're not talking about repeat what AJ told you, become exactly what Johnny was. And I have this example in in class, when I'm speaking on Tuesdays, we're going through this exact thing. The story starts with my past. It starts with screwing up in college and not putting together the career path that my dad had wanted for me and a little bit of embarrassment of being unprepared. Right. Then it shifts into the more present pressing, which is imposter syndrome, right? Now, this is a deeper emotion. So imposter syndrome is when you feel that you've completely failed versus the shame and embarrassment of not passing a test or screwing up a speech. So as you can see, we're moving deeper with the vulnerability, with the risk associated with it, admitting to someone that you are struggling with imposter syndrome or a lack of self confidence. Well, that's a bigger step than, oh, in the third grade, I spilled some milk all over me when I was shaking it up in the cafeteria. Well, of course, and to understand that you would have an issue struggling with imposter syndrome allows me as somebody who, if I wanted to, can use that information to manipulate you. Right. And of course, we've all been in that situation where that information has come back to haunt us. And what what else is interesting here is if how I see the world being put together differs from the way you see the world being put together, there, depending on how I feel about myself, I could feel that because yours is different than you judge me for how I see it, which then goes to the point of, oh, so you think that you're better than me. Right. Or do you think that your way of the world getting being put together is the right way? Is the right way? So now I feel inadequate and now there is anger and contempt towards you. There's judgment pass. Absolutely. And I think that this is where we're getting in a lot of trouble today because everyone on social media is posting their medium disclosure of how they see the world being put together around them. And then so somebody says this and somebody else goes, well, actually, it's this way. And now we have a bunch of yelling back and forth and which everyone needs to understand that everyone's experiences and how that world works is put together differently because of their how they're raised and the experiences that lend them to putting those pieces together. So we need to be open to that. Right. And literally the the light disclosure allows the dropping of guard. We're all walking around with this protective layer on where we want the world to see us in the right light and we want to project confidence and look the part. And when we can share a light disclosure where it's silly, it happened so long ago, we're not tied to the experience anymore. Other than now, we can get a chuckle out of our own behavior. It allows the other person to drop their guard and then we get to medium disclosure. And that's where I think a lot of us when we try to connect with people, we hit the gas too soon. We dump a lot of information out when we're like, OK, finally, this person likes me, let him hear the full shebang. Well, because everything else in our life is now instant gratification. Right. I want some coffee. Boom. Caring. I want the new record of so and so artist download. It's instant gratification. You're not waiting for anything. So so with everything else being easily handed to me, but yet I have to slow everything down in order to create a connection. It could be a very frustrating thing, especially if you've grown up with this technology rather than you and I, who I could remember having the phone cord running down the hall under my door just so I could talk to the girl in high school or hell, I remember when my dad brought the microwave home and that would a big deal. That was we are talking about the microwave is like what? The very first step of instant gratification. Yeah. Right. Now you have cooking went from 15 minutes to seconds. Absolutely. That might be the gateway of instant gratification right there. Yeah, I remember the second we got dial up modem working and you want to go online at 1 a.m. when everyone's asleep, you got to put the pillow over the computer to muffle the dial up noises. Technology is now advancing to a point where everything is immediate. Our needs, wants, desires are being met through technology very quickly. But humans haven't quite adapted to that speed. So we still need to work through these levels of vulnerability for that deeper connection to happen. And a lot of what we talk about on previous episodes of the toolbox is about showcasing a sense of humor, right? And that light disclosure comes with a sense of humor tied to it. As we get to medium and heavy disclosure, now we're dropping that sense of humor, that guard that we may keep up and we're actually disclosing information that is not meant to be taken funny. It is meant to have a level of seriousness with it. Well, to to have a sense of humor at medium disclosure needs to have two people who are who feel good and comfortable with each other, where they can laugh at this stuff together. Because if I don't know you, you give me your worldview and I laugh about it. We're in serious trouble. Yeah, especially if you take that worldview very seriously. Absolutely. And once again, everyone is so differently developed that had you been the kind of person who's done a lot of work on yourself in order to put that world together comparatively to the kid who put it together by watching Jersey Shore. We're talking totally different experiences, totally different experiences and worldviews that have been that have been put together and entirely different. Now, let's get into heavy disclosure. Yes, that's the big one. That's probably the scariest one for our listeners. I know it's scary for me to even thinking about it. Well, because heavy disclosure is the understandable human weakness. Your fears and insecurities about yourself and the world around you. Now, that is a that is a big one because most people don't want to have to admit that they have fears and insecurities because that leaves them feeling vulnerable, which leads on the feeling unsafe. Or sometimes we're just, you know, parking that in the closet. We don't want to deal with it. No, no. We have no interest in handling the monster under the bed. We have no interest in dealing with the insecurities that are holding us back. So that, of course, if that's in the closet, well, I don't want to show you my dirty laundry. I'm not trying to show you all these insecurities. But this progression, and this is a phenomenal quote by Bernie Brown, I know we're huge fans. Yes, we cultivate love when we allow our most vulnerable and powerful selves to be deeply seen and known. And when we honor the spiritual connection that grows from that offering with trust, respect, kindness and affection. Now, when we hear heavy disclosure, a lot of us are not anticipating trust, respect, kindness or affection. We're expecting the worst, like, oh, my God, now I'm going to be so judged, so vulnerable that this person can't possibly like or love me. But in these moments where we progress through the light, we are now dropping our guard, we're moving to medium, where we're starting to explain our world of you and share that. And then we move to heavy. Well, now we're actually on the road to real connection. Yes. Well, it's going to take us a while to get to heavy disclosure. And that is not for everyone. It is for those who have earned it, which is very important because if, first of all, if you just blurt it out, that means that that you're willing to take anyone who is willing to take you. It's which is a very unattractive thing. And in fact, it's it's the opposite. It's repulsion and and it and it's needy. The other point is by being selective on who gets that information. It allows the other person to feel special for knowing you in such a state. Right. If you go projecting heavy disclosure on your social media to everyone in the world, well, then it's impossible to feel a connection with you because everybody knows that information. And it also aligns with the victim mentality, right? When we are blurting out these things in heavy disclosure to anyone that will hear us, well, that is a turnoff. That is the neediness that repels people from being interested in you at all. I believe Bernay Brown calls it flood lighting, where you're just like flood lighting, just blasting people with the stuff and where they're they're looking at it or feeling it of you as if it was you were blasting on a giant light. Yeah, I can't I can't take this right now. And we've all been in that conversation where it gets too heavy, too fast. And you're just like, well, I barely know you. I don't know how to handle these heavy emotions. So with all of these levels of disclosure we're talking about, the vulnerability has emotion tied to it. We're sharing from silly, playful, you know, lighthearted emotions into the heavier, deeper emotions that are tied to those insecurities that we're struggling with. Well, once again, when people hear the word vulnerability and that it creates connection, I feel that they want to dive in because they're like, well, I'm not scared of being vulnerable. I want to make connections and it just doesn't work in that manner because the other person, though you're ready to be open and that vulnerable, doesn't mean that the other person is ready. And so time needs to be nature needs to run its course that allows both parties to feel mutually ready for that. Well, let's let's break down. How do we feel mutually ready for that? Right. You have to listen. You have to be empathetic to the other person through their disclosure. Floodlighting is just throwing everything at the other person with no actual listening or understanding where they're coming from. It's just here. Take it or leave it. This is everything. What we're talking about here in vulnerability is we have the light disclosure and then we're listening to the other person disclose and we're working our way up to that. So there is a level of listening that goes along with connection. That's not to be downplayed here. A lot of us, when we go and just full blast, we are saying to the other person, I have no interest in hearing you. I'm just ready to tell you my story. I'm just ready for you to give me something. That's not a solid place to be when we're building a connection. And what I love about this whole idea of vulnerability is the ripple effect that it causes, because when we can start to feel comfortable with this vulnerability and working our way through these levels of disclosure in front of another person, then we encourage the other person to be vulnerable around us. And that allows us to become memorable. We feel strongly connected to those that we are comfortable enough being vulnerable around. So all of a sudden, this person is starting to feel a little more confident in what they're offering up. And they're going to remember that comfort that you gave them and their vulnerability. I love that. That's great. Now, how do we encourage vulnerability from other people? Because that is such a difficult place to be when you're like, OK, now I know I need to be vulnerable. I know I need to get this other person vulnerable. How do I do this if I want to connect with them? Well, this comes back to one of the basic principles that we always talk about in class, which is stronger frame leads the weaker one. And so if we expect or want other people to be vulnerable around us, then we're going to have to be vulnerable ourselves. And that is a difficult thing. How do you how do you get comfortable with being vulnerable when it's you run the risk of having that vulnerability used against you? Yeah, I mean, I I liken this to the metaphor of meeting someone, opening a door, staring into the dark abyss and turning them and saying, OK, you go first, first. Tell me if it's safe. Who is going to say, yeah, sure. I mean, you know, a stranger is not going to do that. So it takes you walking through that door, walking into the abyss to allow the other person to go, you know what, this is the right path for me. There's that, which is the leading. So going in first, shining the flash around, saying it's OK. And then the other thing is you have and I love how language plays a role in your subconscious and how you view things. So if you take shots or cast judgment on other people for being vulnerable or chasing their dreams or doing this, that is going to play a role in the people around you seeing that and how comfortable they're going to be to open up. And it's a hypocritical thing. So you can't expect those around you to be open and then take shots and other people. And this is something that always comes around and we I see it all the time. If you're friends with somebody or you have somebody in your social circle who who is taking shots at somebody else and as long as it's not you or it's quite entertaining to watch them do it. And you're like, well, as long as it's not me, I'm fine with that. Blah, blah, blah. Guess what? It's always going to come to you. It's always going to come. It's only a matter of time. And so I just want. I want you thinking about that and moving forward to be to be careful that not for you to watch out for that, that you yourself are not casting disparaging remarks against other people who are being vulnerable and working through their own insecure because it's playing a role in those who around you and their vulnerability and their perception of your comfort level. Right. If all you're doing is taking shots at other people's vulnerability, then I'm certainly not going to feel comfortable being vulnerable around you. I'm going to pull back. I'm going to stop sharing things. The other thing to keep in mind here and we we see this constantly. The second someone takes the lead and starts showcasing a little vulnerability, the other person goes, great, let me tell you all my issues. That seems insignificant. Now, let me tell you all mine and they just grab that spotlight back. And it's it's instinctual. We've all felt it like, great, this person is being vulnerable. Now I can finally get some things off my chest that I haven't been able to talk to other people about. And what we're talking about here is creating the space for that to happen. And I can't tell you how many conversations we've been in where we're talking to someone for the first time and we're just explaining a little bit of our frustration with something. And then immediately we get bombarded with every struggle that they've been going on over the last three, four weeks. Well, the reason is because somebody strong has flipped the script. OK, so. And so here's how this works. People are going out. They're putting their best perfect person out there trying to collect attention, approval and accept acceptance for themselves by throwing out the most amazing, perfect lifestyle. Now, when somebody comes along, bucks the trend and is able to be vulnerable. And all of a sudden that is what's getting attention, approval, acceptance. The so that the script has been flipped. And now rather than this, I have to do this. And it always takes one strong person who is comfortable with themselves into being vulnerable that allows another person around them to feel good that somebody else is going through the same thing they are. So now they've put a platform for themselves to connect with each other. Here comes all the running fools to to glom on and to jump in the middle of that stage. Yeah, and they're they're ready to let it all out there. And when we don't follow this path of light, medium, heavy disclosure. What we're doing is we're actually breaking that connection. We're pushing other people to a place where they no longer feel comfortable with any connection with us. Now, what we can do here to evoke and encourage vulnerability from other people is much like the experiment we started today's discussion with. Stop focusing on the light factual questions, the small talky BS questions that no one cares about. You don't actually care about someone's birthplace. You don't actually care about someone's workplace and focus on the emotional questions. Those feelings, those aspirations, those goals, those hopes that the person is working towards or those fears, worries and concerns that they're having working through those. And when we can cultivate a genuine interest, not the fake, OK, let me just collect some information and data interest. We can inspire people to be vulnerable around us. Yes. And, you know, this is going to be something that comes in a future episode when we interview Michael Ventura, who's done a wonderful job with applied empathy and being able to put yourself in other people's shoes. Suggest you guys check that one out of your way into this. He's also put up some really interesting ways of helping you get to these deeper questions, and we found ourselves hosting some dinners. And you had found a way of finding, of getting some good questions to get the people talking to express themselves in a manner that allows all of us to connect to each other. Yeah, I feel like we all understand the concept of asking questions. But a lot of times we get so hung up on the factual side of things that we miss out on where the real gold is. So some of these questions are as simple as what was the moment in life that you were your happiest? You ask someone that question and immediately their thoughts go to that amazing, positive, emotional experience. They get to delve into that and share a little bit of that. Well, not even that one. They have to filter through multiple to find the one that best describes that moment. So they're fully in that state. Another one that we see time and time again in boring, small talk conversation is, oh, what do you like to do for fun? You know, that's not nearly as effective of a question as, hey, when your friends come into town to visit you in LA, where are your favorite places to take them? It's a great one. Now, let's think about the emotion tied to that question, right? Now they're thinking about their friends, their family, the people that they love in their life and the excitement that goes around showing that person a good time, taking care of that person when they come to visit. That is a much stronger emotional frame to play with. Then, oh, what's your favorite place to have fun? What do you like to do on the weekends? Where do you go for fun? Those are boring questions that lead the conversation to collapse on itself. Yeah, and the other person's not going to feel good about answering it because it was a generic question. You're going to get a generic response. And or the other favorite is when we ask people to be our personal help, right? Where should we go tonight? What should we hang out and do? Instead, look at the emotional frame tied to that. Look at evoking the fun and asking that person to think about those moments. And that question is going to have a lot more impact to creating this vulnerability that is going to lead to connection. So as we transition from small talk into big talk, the experiment that we started today with was all about the emotional context here. Getting the other person to open up around the times they felt those emotions are the key to getting that are the key to encouraging vulnerability from the other person. Now, when we talk about emotions, it's a tricky subject for a lot of us. We feel like emotions can be seen as weakness, right? You see the classical painting of emotions and movies and reality TV and it's bombastic. It's over the top. It's it's so dramatic. It's almost forced. So we feel like we have to hide those emotions. And when we tamp down these emotions and we evoke stoicism, well, the other person doesn't get any read on you. The other person doesn't get to know a true side of you at all. So why do you think it's so uncomfortable for us to lean into these emotions, Johnny? Well, I mean, I think there's a there's a ton of contributing factors. And I we live in a day and age that a lot of times your expression could piss somebody off and you could get yelled at for it. You could get in trouble for it just by expressing how you feel. As I mentioned earlier, you know, it used to be that you had your five closest friends that you were able to open up about a lot of things about. And now, with all the social media, people first, I think they think about their five closest friends who are going to see their post, but they don't see the other 300 people that are going to see their posts. And then here comes trouble. And then there's that argument of why you're reading it or why do you have to take things so seriously? And once again, it comes back to the person who meticulously put this world view together. It's like, how could you not take this so seriously? Yeah, I think in general, there's this level of trolling that goes on in the digital world that has led us to tamp down these emotions because we just don't want to hear it from people. We don't want to be trolled. We don't want the naysayers. We don't want the comments. We don't want those people coming into our lives. So we hold our emotions pretty close to our chest under the vest. And let's go along with that. This goes back to something I was just saying about you being the judgmental person and expecting those around you to be vulnerable. So let's just say, hypothetically, that I know that you troll people online, right? And I know that you get off on that. It's a thing that that you really enjoy just rallying people up and see how how much of a tizzy you could throw them in. Now, though, you don't do that. And with people, if you're face to face with them, never do it online. I'm still I'm still going to be weirded out because I know that part about you and I know that perhaps something I have to say is the exact sort of thing that knows that for you to target in on. And I also think a lot of our judgments of other people are rooted in our own insecurities. Of course. So it's easy for us to cast dispersions on the other person because that's a lot simpler than dealing with those skeletons in our closet. So it's easy for us to find the imperfections in others. It's a lot more difficult for us to deal with our own imperfections. And these barriers to vulnerability, they get put up over years. How many of our older clients coming through when we start delving into some of these issues and we start talking about sharing your emotions, sharing your insecurities? Do you see close up and clam up and class, Johnny? Well, it's I think for we see in the older guys, but we also see I think the the older guys have been beaten down to where they've shut it off and the younger guys are just terrified. And I think those are the two things that we're dealing with in today's society. And one of the things that I always see is this idea of of wanting to get back to authenticity. Well, how do you how do you get to authenticity if you don't even know how you view things or you you haven't done enough work on yourself to understand how you feel about things without it being influenced by something you read or what your other friends are going to say. Right. Someone else you look up to feels about it. Exactly. Yeah. And there needs to be a time where you're able to detach from influence to really ask yourself these questions of what it is, who it is that you are and what it is that you are believing. Right. I mean, the biggest barrier to vulnerability is you haven't asked yourself the difficult questions. So how can you give the answers in conversation? We talk about deep talk, small talk, big talk. Well, if you aren't asking yourself big talk questions, if you aren't actually tapping into your emotions, your beliefs, your thoughts about the world around you, your aspirations either. Well, and also when you go down that road, it gets very difficult because you have to start committing to ideas that that are that you feel temperamentally that are right and wrong and committing to the possibility of failure. Yep. Right. When we start talking about goals and aspirations, well, that's a lot of risk, right? There's a risk that you won't reach those goals. There's a risk that you won't reach your potential in those aspirations. So it's easier to just not dwell on that. The fear and not being able to reach your dreams or have that collapse on yourself and chasing it is is a is terrifying. This is why, you know, there is a new thing that I really enjoy. It's just like just make it a point of life just to overreach for the fewer fact that you're pushing yourself as far as you possibly can. But it's you're never going to reach these things. But you could and you so you get comfortable with the idea of I'm overreaching because I want to see how far I can go in that direction. But I know what is about on the other end is highly unattainable. But I am comfortable when not people want to hit that mark. It all comes down to shame, right? When we feel like I can't do this. I don't want other people to know about this. The level of vulnerability is too great. There is a sense of shame attached to it. If you vocalize your goals and you don't reach your goals. Well, there's a possibility that other people are going to know that you didn't reach your goals and there's shame associated with that. And this feeling of shame is so powerful. It drives a lot of our actions. It drives a lot of our conversation to avoid that feeling. Now, we've all had one or two or three clarifying moments of shame in our life. Yes. Typically, our parents or our teachers or some authority figure in our life was the leading cause of that shame. Third grade when I was shaking this milk. You still haven't gotten over it, I see. I'm just happy with that part of the episode where we're going this deep with vulnerable. I can finally get over it. We're working through Johnny's shame around this milk incident. And when we start to understand that even shame is fleeting, right? We joke about Johnny feeling shame. That window of shame around the milk probably lasted, what, a week at school? I know, you know, I was such a all over the place kid, it was probably 20 minutes. Well, shame becomes this boogeyman of sorts, right? It becomes this thing we're running away from. And it takes on this larger than life part of our psyche of like, I have to avoid it at all costs. I can't let other people know that there are these flaws because there's shame associated with it. And shame can become a very painful driving force in your life if you don't get it under control and realize that every single person on this planet feels shame without a doubt. And let's, you know, you know, I was just talking about the idea of overreaching and getting comfortable with it so that you don't feel shame when things fall apart around you. Think about athletes. They go, we're looking at the next NFL season, right? All these top of the line athletes are getting together to make a run at the Super Bowl, right? To be the champions of the NFL this year. Now, we all know that only a select few of 53 are going to be basically Tom Brady and whoever else the Patriots field. Well, we're not going to get into this argument again. However, there is how many other guys who have to who very well know that at the end of the season, they're not going to be hosting and hoisting the Lombardi. Yeah, all the Detroit Lions players. Well, there's a possibility. But they get it easy because they can start the season already. You know, they already know. So you have all these people who are going after the same thing. They already know that some of them are not going to be able to deal with it. Now, what is the result of that end of the year? Of how many have to the retooling and the regrouping and the refocusing of putting it together for another run, which they know that possibility won't get again. Then having to possibly retire from a career and lifetime of chasing that and a high possibility of not hoisting that trophy one time. And how do you how do you deal with that? And this is an athlete to have their their own struggles upon that. And I think we see that in a lot of off-field behaviors that that go on of them trying to deal with a time limit on a goal. And not only that, the collaboration that has to go in. I mean, for for that to happen, things have to be perfect from the top down with organization, players, egos, coaches, block in and of itself. A lot of things have to come together when we start to unpack shame and realize that, yes, it's a strong force, but it doesn't have to be because it is temporal. Right? Yes. To your point, the season starts anew. And most of those players, right, LeBron James was probably wallowing in shame for a couple of weeks. And then he's right back on work and I got it. Jumper and he's ready for the next season. These are professionals, so they have to regroup. They have to retool. They get it. But we can all strive for that in our lives. We can all put shame in its place, knowing that it's only going to last for hours, days, weeks at most. Well, and for and some people, you know, they allow it to to roll for years. And in fact, some of the damage that they have sustained is can be a apartment or lifelong struggle, which is why so importantly, things like talking therapy or working through these things. And of course, we talk about journaling and how how important that is to being able to look back at something that gives you a hard time. It gives you that you feel is cringe worthy. I put that in air close. That's what the kids say, I guess. And to work through something like that. And let's think about that and pack that a little bit more. Talking therapy works because of the vulnerability. Yes, it gives you that opportunity to unpack and move on and not hold on to these things. But what is the driving force of all of what we're talking about here in connection is allowing your true self to come through. Yes, your true self is an amalgamation of positive emotions, negative emotions, hopes, fears, dreams, shame, all of these emotions. And when we try to package ourselves in the perfect light and only allow people to see a small sliver of any of those pieces of us, there is no connection. No, think about this, pause the podcast for a second and think about all of the deepest connections in your life. Did they come through perfection, meaning the other person holding you in high esteem and putting you on a pedestal and viewing you as a perfect human? Or did these connections happen through vulnerability? You may be having a sense of embarrassment, shame, humility around this person and them allowing to see you in a truer light. You know, I think a lot of that also comes with with age as well. When you're a little bit younger, do you see everyone flawless? Because you are dealing with with so much and you're looking at as you get older and you start to realize that no matter how good everyone might be handling it or hiding it, they're still dealing with it. They're still dealing with it. And there's a quote by Carl Young and who I've just been doing some research on. But I really enjoy this. It's the most terrifying thing is to accept oneself completely. That is terrifying. There is a lot that goes along with that. And why self development is so important. And I mentioned this today, which was a few weeks ago, I was sitting in an Uber and the guy asked me what I did for a living. And I mentioned that I was in the self development. We had this podcast and he just turned around and goes, oh, that's good, because some people really need that. No, no, everybody needs self development. You you don't come out of the womb perfect ready to take on the world. You come out developing and then well, self development is working on the tools to handle all of these things that we're talking about. All of these things. And the other thing about this. So you were raised in an environment that focused primarily on what? Right. So some families focus on academics. Some families focus on athletics. Some families focus on the arts. Like so if if you were in a family that just focused on academics, which we see in our programs all the time, at some point as an adult, you have to take responsibility for the other areas that need developed because because how we were raised only focus on certain ones. Right. So now it's like, OK, because I focus on academics. I lost out on a lot of social graces that I should have gathered that is going to help me in my career of academics. So now I have to go out and develop those areas. You didn't come out being raised well rounded. There is no possible way for that. And when you have the tools to deal with these emotions, these negative emotions, then you can start to feel more comfortable with being vulnerable. You can actually start to work through these phases. So when we are digging into connection, now we're realizing that it doesn't happen through perfection and it doesn't happen through commonalities and similarities. It happens through the sharing of emotions. We want to unpack our emotions in a way that allows the other person we're talking to to feel comfortable to unpack their emotions. And there is going to be a little bit of nervousness around this idea. But as you start to get more comfortable with yourself, you're going to provide space for other people to be more comfortable with themselves. So when we meet clients who are really struggling with this idea of connection in their relationships and depth, a lot of times when we ask them, well, what are your thoughts and feelings? Crickets, crickets, because we haven't worked through that ourselves. Journaling is a powerful tool, talking therapy is a powerful tool. But just taking a catalog of what's going on in your life, where you've been and where you want to go is an important step to being able to connect with other people. Because if you do feel truly lost, well, it's going to be very hard for other people to see these points of connection. Any opportunity that you get for exploring and developing self-expression needs to be taken in order for you to be vulnerable. And one of the things that Brené Brown also talks about that I really enjoy is the importance of play, the importance of doing an activity that involves the time, the passage of time without you knowing it and being an extreme joy, whether that may be dancing or drawing or playing music or writing poetry, whatever that may be in order for for those things to and and as we get older, I think we tend to forget about that very thing. We were so wrapped up with work and family and child care and and everything else that goes along with that, that the very idea of losing yourself and something that is joyous and intimidating. So we understand that shame is a universal emotion. We all feel it. So running from it is not going to help you in this sense. It's certainly not going to help you connect by avoiding it. Second, a lot of us are afraid to talk about shame and I get that. I know for myself there were a number of tough conversations I had over the years where expressing a bit of shame and those experiences was nerve-wracking in the beginning. But the best part about it was coming out the other side and realizing that that other person got to know me on a deeper level and feel comfortable enough with me to start sharing more of their depth. And when we just play with these surface, small talk topics and we're just data gathering, we're computers. We're not human. Human is emotion. That's what we're striving for here, being able to feel other people's emotions and allow other people to feel comfortable expressing their emotions around us. Now, the worst part about all of this, the third and final point about shame is that the less we talk about shame, the more we feel shame. So the more you can get comfortable owning up to some of those shameful moments in your life, the light disclosure in your past, those silly stories of shaking milk, the medium disclosure of what you're kind of struggling with today and then the heavy disclosure of where you want to get to in the future. When people know you on all three of those levels, they feel really connected to you. They have your back. There's a depth of the relationship and they want to support you. I, you know, I always think about what can you do that that helps cover those and and that you could do with friends. And I any sort of learning where you're working with other people exposes all those things because you're you're announcing what it is you want to learn. So and you're going through this event of failing because you're learning. And so there is that learning curve and other people are with you in that and you're sharing in that experience. And then, of course, the future aspect of understanding this, whatever this is that we're we're learning to to for an example, that is you and I doing this half marathon. Right. Right. So the training you brought it up. I was like, it sounds fun, new challenge, always good to be doing. And it'll be some new content that we can talk about and work through. And so there was the aspiration, right? I have marathon. Then there comes getting beat up and training every day that we're in there. And we have training today, which is going to be ugly, which is and in these moments, not our best and we're not in the best light. I know that I had our trainer drove me to vomiting the other day in which you were laughing and you must hit it yesterday. So there's that not being perfect. We're being pushed to our limits. And however, we both in this training period so far have had moments of exponential growth that we were able to cheer on and high five each other like, holy cow, we're moving into of doing the thing that we set out to do. So all of those bases have been covered in a in a way that is primarily focused on this goal. And of course, there's a nerve wracking sense of posting my mild split times. Yeah. Right. It's like I am not a runner by any means. And I like to set lofty goals. But the first time you you post your run to the group of, well, this is what my time was. Yeah. There is a sense of, well, how do I stack up? You know, the competitive side comes out of me. Oh, I can't believe I was only at an eight minute, 15 second mile average over five miles. I need to speed this up so and so is running it sub eight minute miles. I got to get a move on it. But as you start to disclose, I'm working on this goal. Yeah. This is me putting myself out there. This is me improving. How's the outpouring been, Johnny? We've felt more connected to our guys who are running and getting excited about this than ever before. Yeah, absolutely. Well, the other thing I was going to add to that is there is one thing where if you continue to keep developing, you're like, you can flex, you could say, check me out. I'm getting better every week. But I had a setback about a week ago where for whatever reason, my legs were just beat up from the training and I had bad shin splints. My cows were killing me. I had a pain in my knee and I put up which 11 and a half minute miles, which my trainers like, what are you doing? And I was like, I was hobbling on the whole seven miles run. And and I was and I had to go to Vegas for an event that weekend and I was livid at myself. And I thought all weekend about getting revenge on this. I have this thing about playing where you're only as good as your last show. So it's always in the back of my head. So you're only as good as your last run. My last run run sucked. In fact, I was I was so mad about it that I didn't post it to our group because I didn't want to. I didn't I was feeling shame about it only to come back this week with a vengeance to me. Now I got to get a move on. Johnny's laying down the time, man. Now I got to get moving. But it was it was working through that, which were. Which remind you and allows you to feel good of of this process of connection, of vulnerability and getting comfortable with shame because it's going to be there in any process that you have to work at. So to recap, connection happens through vulnerability, a scary word for a lot of us. So we broke it down into bite-sized pieces starting with light disclosure. This simplest way to get that vulnerability ball rolling. Moving into medium and heavy disclosure, dealing with the heavier sense. And we know that shame is lurking. Shame is keeping us from being vulnerable. But now we understand that shame is a universal emotion. Every single one of us feels it. Every single one of us struggles with it. Those who try to tout that they don't are straight up lying to you. So understanding that shame is working against us. Now we can start to position ourselves in a way that more strategically creates connection with those around us. And when we open the door first to that vulnerability, we allow other people to feel comfortable dropping their guard so they can start sharing their emotions and the connection can happen. And journaling can help getting comfortable with shame. And I feel that putting yourself in a position where you're constantly learning where there are going to be setbacks, where you have to push yourself, they're going to only get more acquainted and more comfortable with it as well. Right. Vulnerability comes through challenging yourself with letting yourself in situations where you're going to fail. When we seek perfection, we avoid failure. We're not putting ourselves in any position to be vulnerable. And I think you need to have it in certain areas of your life so it can transition into other areas, which is very important. So here we're talking about the the marathon training. Well, it's like if we're going to yell that Johnny, it's half marathon. Half marathon. Let's be we're going to have Mr. Goggins on here and he is not going to want to hear about our 13.1 miles. I'm terrified. So however, but that being comfortable there, knowing that you're working through it, that transitions in the other areas, you got to be able to accept it in one area to get comfortable with it. Yeah. And start small, start small in your conversation, but work to the big talk, start small in your vulnerability, but work to the bigger vulnerabilities and start focusing on being present for the other people so that you aren't just stuck in the data loop, collecting information, but instead you're paying attention to the emotional context in the conversation, creating space for them to share even more of that emotion. So in wrapping this up, AJ and I wanted to point this out. We wanted to put this out to you guys to share with us some of your vulnerability moments and give us an interesting story of how possibly your online profile of being perfect all the time may have gotten you into trouble when trying to connect with somebody in real life. And I know personally there are times where I've seen someone's profile and I've felt intimidated by the perfect life that they happen to be leading socially. So I certainly understand the sentiment of having your personal profile and your pursuit of perfection on social media work against you when it comes to vulnerability and connection. If you send those in, you can send it to questions at thearticharm.com and you can even record a voice memo and send it in. And we'll read one or two of those on the next episode. That'd be rad.