 Hey everybody tonight we're debating biblical slavery and we are starting right now with our Christian team in their 12 minute opening statement praise and Jill the floor is all yours. So biblical slavery so to preempt equivocation and or the very likelihood of us talking past each other with our interlocutors our opponents must provide a clear case for involuntary servitude or subjugation anything less than this does not meet the requirements for biblical slavery. So here's a quick overview of the biblical socio-economic system. One is Israelites and non-Israelites were under one law number 16 15 through 30 so it's impossible to convict Israel of mistreating non-Israelites especially when God commanded Israel to love to love and not impress aliens. Exodus 22 21 23 9 Deuteronomy 24 14 Leviticus 19 34. So the biblical socio-economic system was instituted to prevent poverty of both Israelites and non-Israelites by providing debt relief Deuteronomy 24 14 Leviticus 25 35. If child slavery was such a thing there would have been owners but all's not masters adorns because chattel livestock for example would have been returned back to their owner Exodus 21 39 and 34 while escaped of veds were not to be returned back to their masters as Deuteronomy 25 stipulate 25 15 stipulates. The Israelites in the surrounding nations were involved in the Susan vassal treaty throughout the region which makes it impossible for there to be chattel POWs. Both had contractual agreements to do specific jobs like military support and tribute. Example Joshua 9 3 through 27 16 10 17 3 judges 128 and 30 through 35. For instance God punished the Hebrew nation for the breach of the Susan tree treaty 2nd Samuel 21 1 and the king of Israel required to compensate the giving eyes for their loss 2nd Samuel 21 2 through 9. This demonstrates that the Hebrew-Susanal treaty placed a higher order of obligation on the Susan tree in this case Israel then it in the vassal in this case the Gibbonites is situation unique in the A and E. So now we're going to go to let me get this. So now the laws of the Hammurabi in the covenant code reflect the spirit of the law not the letter of the law so ancient neary scholars driver and miles explain because none of the statutes in the law collections were ever cited in legal texts whether in private legal agreements or in documents that stem from court documents they never were intended to be external but internal hence why the pen that took in Hammurabi are not royal edicts but rather they are a can see English case law which presents a role whose spirit is to be followed not its letter and this is pages 10 through 18 laws of the Hammurabi of the confluence of royal inscribable traditions Pamela bar match. So ancient neary scholars but arrow McKinley Watson Carmichael Hillers Malul and many other scholars see the covenant code as mere scribal exercises for academic purposes which are prescription in the sense of science medicine or divination and are not legislative this is from the scientific treaties. This is because the statutes were articulated in casuistic form as detailed cases expressed in conditional sentences containing a protest starting with if in an apodosis consequently there's no way the supposed 613 laws of the pen it took can be pinned on God because only the decalogue was a pod did a prescriptive the reason why the pen it took and other uh Mesopotamian texts are viewed descriptively rather than prescriptively is because these codes were not intended to be legalistic or rather function as a covenant relationship with the tribe's deity and his people for example would anyone say to love God with all your heart is to be considered legislative such insinuation is absurd and John Oswald we got so this is quoted by several scholars i'm just going through michael gregaran uh j.d. berry billingham i mean there's just so many out there that's uh subscribed to that and they published works on that so busting misconceptions about the biblical slavery contrary with acus petal about the 10 commandments not prohibiting slavery the kent the 10 commandments do outrightly outlaw slavery the 10th commandment which is now shall not covet is very specific because it particularly prohibits coveting any chattel the Hebrew word for covet command is used in regards to humans and other physical objects Deuteronomy 7 25 Proverbs 6 25 the word forever used in Leviticus 25 46 is misapplied because it is used and or chronistically by those who proclaim biblical slavery this word forever own mom means by mainstream scholars a and e scholars means to be jubilee or until the master's death moreover how can Leviticus 25 44 through 46 be equated with slavery anyway because the lord himself is called aquaza property inherited in Ezekiel 44 28 so exodus 21 21 20 through 21 does not mean you can be your slave or an event to an inch of their life because restrictions of physical abuse are provided in the following passages verses 26 through 27 in fact exodus 21 20 through 27 are chiasic in structure and casuistic in nature meaning they come as a group of repeated themes the theme of this chapter is a death penalty first then if not the death penalty then Lex telling onus follows so literally if an abed is murdered unjustly then the death penalty and if they stay alive then they are free from their contractual obligation and with that I yield to my brother Joe thank you brother praise thank you James for having me on and to long to everyone in the chat and thank you service and Dr. Josh for accepting the challenge and it will be a challenge to prove involuntary servitude being forced on another and just as my partner said but let me be more succinct more clear you your task tonight is not to just find the word slavery in the bible and say that's the end to be all for the debate your challenge because according to the jurist psychopedia an article on slaves and slavery the Hebrew term evad did refer to slaves as we understand a slave or the definition thereof as we understand it today but evad has a much wider meaning than the English term slave and in many circumstances it's more accurately translated into the English as servant or hired worker so your challenge tonight service Dr. Josh atheists in the chat is to prove from the context provided surrounding the use of the word words are not univocal they're equivocal they take on the meaning of the context in which the word is used that's a second-grade lesson not trying to insult anyone but that is a second-grade lesson there are actually assignments that are given to grade school students where they make up a word and stick it in a paragraph and you have to define the word based on the context surrounding that word okay so you need to prove in voluntary servitude not just suggest it is the case doulos was the word that referred to slaves and it's also referred to slaves in the new testament but it's used more in a general sense as well it's more specific but it also has a broader wider meaning the word slave today is taboo so we no longer use it to describe someone who owes a debt took out a loan from city bank and now is forced to pay it back you would have been called an event in the Old Testament because you owed money and you were basically that was a lowly position to be in okay that's why the scriptures writes to the Hebrews and says you are to be the head and not the tail you are to be the one who was blending and not the one who was borrowing okay so the the bible does talk about forms of servitude okay no one is denying that forms of servitude were which is what's customary in the ancient times before the welfare estate that is the way you pay back a debt that is the way you paid for everything you worked it's a lot better than the welfare state that we have now where you don't work so that was what was condoned or allowed or accepted in the Torah there is not one passage of scripture that will you can show us other than in the case of war other than in cases where we would confine someone today if they raped someone or a war combat in the enemy combat and we recall them other than in those cases you will never find the Torah condoning someone being confined and forced into servitude against their will the Hebrew servant maintained kinship rights Exodus 21 Leviticus 25 they had marriage rights Exodus 21 the Hebrew Yvette or the Hebrew servant had personal legal rights relating to physical protection they they also this would this would also be for the foreign servants of any kind as well they had freedom of movement and access to liberty according to leviticus 25 the Hebrews would be punished if they were caught abusing a slave and they would even have to let the slave go free if they harm the slave okay according to Exodus 21 or Exodus 21 verse 26 I believe the Hebrew servant which was a voluntary position a hired worker it was illegal to force them to work on the Sabbath and if that hired worker left you were not to return him to another or the person who he take who has taken refuge from if he was to take refuge from or among the Israelites you were not supposed to return that person to his master simply because it was assumed I guess that he was leaving for good for good reason or if you were to slander a hired worker that was also a violation of Torah you couldn't even slander an event it was common in the Torah or in the ancient Near East among the Israelites for a person to voluntarily sell themselves into servitude for a fixed period of time either to pay off debts or to simply survive to get food to get shelter it was seen as a way to survive and 30 seconds take care of your family so that is my challenge my challenge is to demonstrate involuntary servitude other than in the cases in which we today will involuntarily serve you all right we call it incarceration and I yield you got it thanks so much that was the opening from our theist or Christian guests and also we are going to kick it over to hear the opening statement from service and Dr. Josh and want to give a huge thank you to our guests for being patient and also being willing to jump in last minute as both Dr. Josh and service were willing to we appreciate both of them doing that today and so we are thrilled to have you guys all of you and also folks they're all linked in the description in case you want to hear more with that the floor is all yours Dr. Josh and service I'll go ahead and take first crack at this so when praise was bringing out his his position it was made clear that I needed to make a clear case for involuntary servitude slash subjugation then when Jill brings the case in and says what is needed from us the goal post moves from clear case for involuntary servitude to subjugation to a clear case of something that we would do today for slavery of something that we have done in the modern day like specifically the example given was modern day chattel slavery those are two different things you can have a clear case of involuntary servitude and subjugation and it not be perfectly one to one analogous to the types of involuntary servitude to subjugation that we have today I do agree with the incarceration angle though our 13th amendment does make it very clear we can enslave people who are incarcerated that's a problem I agree with that but that is not necessarily part of the conversation here so let's talk about a couple of things here first of all I want to go ahead and bring up the fact that when you argue owners versus masters as praise did earlier in his presentation we are basically arguing semantics if you want to argue owners versus masters and stick strictly in that realm then the conversation necessarily can't talk about the things those owners or masters could do if you had an owner that gave more rights to a slave but then you had a master that would strip more away from a servant one of these people is more analogous to what we have as a slave in the modern day but because of a definitional game you get to hide behind that also you don't need the letter of the law for slavery to be slavery you need function if something functionally was servitude that was involuntary then that would be slavery so jill begins his argument by listing off various rights of slaves as if merely having some rights makes one not a slave there were rights given to slaves in the american south although they were obviously few and far between and definitely not enough to constitute them not being considered involuntarily in involuntary service but I want to go ahead and point out that that doesn't necessarily matter the argument it needs to be perfectly analogous to how we interpret slavery today is a red herring by this we could argue that nothing is the same as anything else because it's not perfectly analogous to what we are trying to compare it to in exodus 21 or 21 verse 20 through 21 if a man smites a servant or is made with a rod and he continues for a day or two he shall not be punished if we're going to argue that this is all a matter of of servitude this is all a matter of working off debt can the bank beat the crap out of me for one to two days you know so long as I don't die well they were allowed to do that in biblical times I would argue that that is definitely something that is involuntary unless you have something that means that's either praise or jill would like to be involuntarily beat but I'm not going to can't shame anyone here if you gave a slave a wife or children you have the ability to keep the slaves wife and children you can let the slave go free this is from exodus 21 for if a master has given him a wife she and she has born him sons or daughters the wife and the child shall still be in the master's custody but the slave shall go out for himself now you can make every single argument you want about it I think it's not just me that can't hear service can anybody else hear service involuntary servitude about it it must be so sorry to interrupt is it is it working out oh there we go now you're back I heard you for the last like four seconds but otherwise I lost you for about five seconds maybe okay I just I just got the internet is unstable notification okay so my point was about exodus 21 for if the master gives a slave a wife and they bear children the master is suddenly able to keep the wife and children even if the slave goes free now I don't know if any of you have been in in long-standing relationships with significant others but if a double-blind was presented to me where I had the choice to either be a slave continue to serve or lose my family that abusive double-blind would inherently be involuntary servitude in my mind reason being I don't consider ultimatum's choices and that is an ultimatum an abusive one at that we also have an issue of cities having to basically give their people up for slaves if we have in Deuteronomy 20 10 through 11 when they'll come as nine into a city and fight against it then proclaim peace into it's basically you got to choose the terms of agreement you got to win it shall be if it makes the an answer of peace and open until the be then it shall be that all people that are found therein shall be tributaries unto the and they shall serve the now if I get to take all these prisoners of war and I get to be the one that dictates the terms of peace how voluntary can it be for the other side at that point I'm literally the one who got to write the contract for them and they can't really do much about it because they just got subjugated by my army that's not voluntary that would be servitude and it would be very much involuntary and involuntary servitude is slavery even if it is not 100 and 1000 percent analogous to the triangle slave trade that we had here in the last few hundred years it's still slavery it doesn't have to be perfectly analogous at that point Leviticus 25 46 points out that ye shall take slaves as your inheritance for your children after you to inherit them for possession they shall be your bondman forever your slaves are your property your children get to inherit those slaves after you die they are your family's slaves we can argue back and forth over whether or not this was forever the fact of the matter is you are still being inherited down to somebody the sins however just they may be that put you into this servitude are still being inherited by somebody else you did not agree to that you did not choose that that is again another form of involuntary servitude if a thief is caught and is too poor to make restitution they get sold for their theft that's Exodus 22 2 through 3 if you sell your daughter she shall not be freed after six years as the male Hebrew slaves yet because there is a distinction between Hebrew slaves and slaves that you take from the nations around you and oh by the way it should be noted from Leviticus 25 44 that both thy bondmen thy bond mace which thou have shall be of the heathen that are around you the Hebrews within your nation get all the fun six year sentences of course that's only if they're male but if they're taken from the nations around you well they get to be with you for as long as you get to arbitrarily choose again if you take slaves from the nations around you it's because you won them in war and at that point you are writing the terms of their agreement I think pretty much all of that constitutes various forms of involuntary servitude involved definitely abuse on the case of these people it does not have to be one to one perfectly analogous to the exact type of slavery that existed in the United States I think that's a red herring but I'll concede the rest of my time to Dr. Josh thank you sirs um so you know I am kind of coming at this right at the end so I don't have anything necessarily prepared I have to say that thus far it does seem like we're casting a very wide net in this topic I mean I think the topic is even just called biblical slavery so where where we want to go I think is it's just a little broad so I guess what I'll do with just a minute or two is bring up a couple of points that I think are probably just salient one is that this idea about the Israelites are supposed to show care for the foreigner and for the slave and for the orphan and for the widow absolutely true there's no question about that the Hebrew Bible I mean it's full of that you can see it in Exodus you can see in Deuteronomy the thing is that we have to remember is that that's a very wide ancient Near Eastern trope so you know anybody go pick up Martha Roth's book on ancient Near Eastern law collections and read through the prologues and the epilogues but particularly the prologues of you know each of these law collections you know Ashnuna, Hammurabi or Namu just read through and see what it is that the king is doing what it is that the ruler is supposed to be doing and it's caring for the weak it's ensuring justice in the land it's caring for the orphan it's caring for those that are abused just the whole point he's the good shepherd of his people so you know the fact that you see this in the in the Hebrew Bible is completely expected and certainly I don't think anybody here a pro or a con slave in the Hebrew Bible would argue that there wasn't slavery in the ancient Near East um so you know just just very quickly then either basically there are two types of slavery in the Hebrew Bible there's dead slavery in this chattel slavery right and it's the same as what you see in the wider ancient Near East um and sometimes in the biblical texts particularly in Deuteronomy and Leviticus 25 the rules seem to be much more humane for the Israelites it's much more humane on a on the understanding that God is going to supernaturally intervene for his people to provide for them so for example in Deuteronomy 15 where it talks about you know when you have a Hebrew dead slave and he's released after the sixth year in Exodus 21 they just go free right without payment but in Deuteronomy 15 that's developed and now they're to be set free and to be provided for liberally right there to be given all kinds of provisions with the with the idea that they're not going to fall back into poverty and dead slavery again and the rationale behind that is not that there's some economic advantage to doing that I mean Jill pointed it out right that the whole point is that they're supposed to be the head and not the tail uh and the way that that would come about is God says I think no less than seven times in the book of Deuteronomy I will bless you I will bless you I will bless you and the same thing is picked up in Leviticus 25 where similar things are seen so you know watching in Israelite in Leviticus 25 fall into poverty in the different stages the rationale there and not treating them as it's not treating Israel as a slave but as a you know as a hired worker is that God is going to supernaturally intervene and take care of that you see that all throughout Leviticus 26 and also Deuteronomy 28 so I don't know where specifically we want to go I'm sure that will make itself clear but I feel like so many things have been hit on that I don't I don't know what else to uh to address specifically so I yield the rest of my time you got it we'll jump into the open discussion and what to remind you folks if you have not yet hit that subscribe button hit that subscribe button right now in that bell notification so you don't miss this debate tomorrow night that I'm pointing to right now Ken and Schuyler fiction are going to go toe to toe on what provides a better foundation for ethics atheism or theism so that should be a juicy one folks and we hope to see you there live for that tomorrow night with that as mentioned folks we'll jump into the open conversation thanks so much for our guest for being here the floor is all yours guys so I just kind of want to get this started really quick I'm going to pose this question to Sirs but also Dr. Josh um so my question is to either do you can you demonstrate that the Pentateuch or the majority of the Pentateuch was to be followed by the letter of the law rather than the spirits of the law and the reason why I ask that is because if it's if you can't show it is by the letter of the law then there's no way you can extrapolate these and and claim there's some type of prescribed slavery or um any type of mandated slavery so if you guys want to respond to that be great so oh you go ahead John yeah I mean so there there are two different things here that I think we have to consider um and this this is something that I actually hear quite a bit uh so we have to ask the question are we talking about the narrative of the text are we talking about the text itself and what I mean by that is um you know if you were to look at go through Exodus 19 and 20 for example and read through what it is that uh the text is is saying what the story is saying these are the laws from God given through Moses right and this is what I mean this is what the Old Testament text is doing so the narrative is doing uh you cited people like Jean Botero for example and Botero's argument in writing reasoning in the gods uh I don't I don't know that well I think you want to be careful how you use it uh because if you're going to make the argument like every a seriologist would and I suspect every Hebrew Bible scholar worth his salt would say that these are not law codes right I mean nobody's thought that for uh decades at least um you know a code is something that is uh meant to to prescribe right it's meant to legislate and nobody would argue that it's doing that uh now the problem that I think we face is that if you look at the laws of Hammurabi for example it's very easy for you guys and for us to say oh no those aren't legislative because look we don't see for example cases we have a couple but there aren't a lot um where you know like people are citing the laws of Hammurabi like nobody the judges aren't going you know you know having somebody come for a case and going well hang on just a second let me see what I'm supposed to do here and then turning to the stealing gun okay law 117 says I'm supposed to do this so that's what we do right that's not what they are they're royal probably again um so nobody has a problem saying that you know Christian non-Christian alike the problem is when you come to the biblical text because I would say that I mean I would argue that adamantly I didn't my book and uh do it all the time and these are not legislative that's that's not what they are the problem is the narrative of the text is describing them as such right that's the whole point of them they're from God through Moses so yeah I think you have to and I'll shut up but you know you I guess you gotta you gotta answer the question are we talking about the narrative of the of the text are we talking about you know as this the seventh century document was written uh what what is it trying to do as a text does that make sense yeah I appreciate that explanation Josh but I guess I'm gonna push back and would you say to love the Lord with all your heart would you say that the narrative is that's prescriptive there like that doesn't make why would God force people to love him and I don't see that in the Bible narrative I mean hermeneutically I don't see that yeah so this is I mean people like you you read like vine felt for example um or go pick up um um lung bomb I think is is who I looked at a little while back um the book of Deuteronomy if you've ever heard of the east our head and succession treaty there was this idea a while back and I think there's still some merit to it but that the book of Deuteronomy for example the stuser and vassal treaty that you were referring to is based on like Hittite law and Hittite treaties right Hittite treaties um but then the east our head and succession treaty was found and we have lots of copies out of it my old advisor um worked on it from tel ty not and what we see in the east our head and succession treaty is you know you have a a new ruler that's coming and this treaty goes out and it's a it's a susan vassal treaty saying I the assyrian king am making you swear an oath to love my son and that's the word that's used to love and to love him with all your heart and this is the language of the east our head and succession treaty um and it's legal language right I mean this is this is what it is um so the book of Deuteronomy was I think pretty effectively um compared to it and you know of course it matches up in that seventh century time frame but uh so yeah I I get from like a 21st century the word love ahav in the Hebrew that sounds kind of weird but I mean this is very much what you see in these susan vassal treaties so it's it's not that I guess I want to say it's not that um again there's some code that legislates in that sense you know like a judge is going to say okay you didn't love the ruler right you didn't love ashurbanapal and so therefore this is the no this this is a command but by the by the ruler of assyria this is what you will do and if you don't do it you've broken the treaty and the gods will bring all of these curses upon you just like you see in Deuteronomy 28 right I don't see something okay okay Joe yeah let me let me just give a little bit push back on services opening um and you guys can get back to that that debate um I'm going to read from Webster's revised on the bridge dictionary the definition of slave or slavery the condition of a we're going to commit an ideological fallacy excellent no we're going to read a definition of what slave means to us okay today and what it meant to them but they also as I mentioned in my opening included a lot of other characters would be included in that or given that title of event but to us this is why biblical slavery does not exist that's right biblical slavery does not exist because we only define biblical slavery as the state of entire subjection of one person to the will of another the condition of subjection or submission characterized by the lack of freedom of action or of will our challenge which was not meant was to prove that there is involuntary servitude being conducted and I specified other than in the case of war and what do our opponents do they talk about war and what happens in the case of an in-war scenario where people yes are captured we have more sophisticated ways of doing so today but we still capture enemy combatants and survivors of war biblical slavery does not exist if you're going to point to cases of debt our opponent service appointed to the fact that people who were in debt were thrown in jail or made to pay that debt off well if you owe your taxes you better talk to a lawyer because if you don't appear for debtors examination you can be thrown in jail okay so there are situations today this is why I specified if you're going to point the finger at the Bible and say the ha that is slavery then you cannot live in a world in a America specifically that would do the same thing to an individual who committed a crime to an individual who was an enemy war combatant to an individual who owed debt okay would do the same exact thing so my my challenge would be to demonstrate other than in those scenarios now I just want to say this really quickly about the marriage the wife masters and I have a question for source I'll end there did the event know before or he took a marriage contract a Hebrew marriage contract or contracted into marriage with a Hebrew servant of the master did he know that that would be the case beforehand or was he tricked because if he knew beforehand then it is a voluntary act so you cannot now cry well I took out a loan and it was that 23 interest and Bernie Sanders come help me that does it doesn't work that way if you know it's going into the contract that that is the case and those are the rules that's his property that by the way that would be the reasoning according to scholars because that servant is his property still she may still owe him money she may still be in debt so no you can't come marry all of my servants so I don't have anyone to work anymore so that was the stipulation did the servant know that beforehand yes or no so there's a couple things because this is framed very much as a gotcha there's a couple things I want to address before even dealing with that first of all there seems to be a very libertarian idea here of all contracts are voluntary if you are a slave until you prove otherwise yeah all you think all contracts are voluntary until you prove otherwise demonstrate that it is not a voluntary contract yes so if you are handed a contract and your options are signed the contract or die that is a voluntary contract to you if you can demonstrate that no no no no is that is that a voluntary contract to you if your options are signed the contract or die am I facing is this a war scenario I don't care I don't care I do care but I don't make a distinction between war scenarios why does the distinction the rules of engagement of war are different war is war if your pacifists are great but you live in a country where just war I don't I hate this country I don't give a shit I know I know you do but but you're behind right now is safe because someone went out and fought in a just war for your freedom so if you're going doesn't matter for the argument I'm asking you if you have a contract in front of you and your options are signed the contract or die is that voluntary if it is divorced from context if it is the US military and I am part of the third right I'm signing the treaty because I don't want to die and I know I'm wrong for what I've done so the Israelites were sort of like the freedom fighters of the ancient near east God sent them and I and in your opening it seems as though you were suggesting that these were not just wars that God somehow with some tyrannical God going around looking for people to pick on right so there's a caveat there that it's it's accept our peace treaty or go to war and die so I think that's a straw man and it's a distortion of what the Bible says right and it was a just war if you read the Exodus 34 for example really early on before Deuteronomy read Deuteronomy 7 Deuteronomy 9 Genesis 15 even God explains to Abraham into the book of Genesis in the book of Exodus that these people need to go they are throwing babies okay I think we're I'm sorry we're very shifting to like yeah we're shifting something else I think that's an interesting topic but I think we're shifting away from so I'm gonna go ahead and say the reason that whether or not it was a just war does not factor into the conversation I was never the the topic of the debate is not our biblical wars justified the topic of the debate is does the Bible contain slavery is there slavery in the Bible is there biblical slavery my point is that there is slavery you do not need the letter of the law specifically to have slavery you merely have to be an individual that is stripped of your freedoms and put in some form of servitude okay well let me ask you this words Germany after world war one stripped of their the same thing happened to Germany after world war one doesn't matter we're not talking about wars oh you just brought up warfare as an example of slavery because that specific to the actual topic in the Bible war in the Bible so so what do we do with people who are enemy combatants if we just put them back into society and let them roam around we keep raping and pillaging what do we do with those wait so enemy combatants just rape and pillage that's what they do enemy combatants is that what you think military personnel do criminals yeah from other countries yeah sure wait wait only from other countries wait hold on hold on hold on sorry so what do we do with those individuals hang on hang on Jill hang on Jill so let's let's just make sure we're all I feel like this might be my role here it's just sort of answer little things like this and you guys can go at it so Deuteronomy 20 here that like this is what Deuteronomy that the rules of warfare are right so and you guys have talked about it already so you have two types of cities right those that are far off and those that are in Canaan proper the ones that are in Canaan proper are under the ban right so there is no you know peace treaty offered to them they're either annihilated driven out whatever right but that's that's Canaan proper so those cities that are outside are offered Shalom right they're offered a peace treaty of assillage if they accept everything's good they become a Corvay labor right the Hebrew mosque right so if Solomon wants to get you know a big building built he bring bring a bunch of people from your city right so they're not slaves proper I mean we would probably call them some type of slave today but yeah it's not like it's not like they could go man that's you know it's Friday I want to watch the game right yeah it's no you you're called right this is this is Corvay labor those that fought those that put up a fight there to be emasculated that city all the men are killed right there are no there are no POWs left because all the men would have fought right but they all they all been killed right all the men are all killed back though even at the age of 13 just still the case today but God but so so the men are killed women and children are taken as plunder so those are your situations so you don't it's it's it's not like you have this situation where all right we got Jim here you know this 25 year old guy who's been fighting for this and we've we've bound him you know now what do we do you know do we let him run around do we take him as like no he's killed right so that's done yeah because he would have fought please right but that's that's the point that's the point he's already agreed to you three times Jill okay this is so what is so what is plunder so what is plunder please can you explain what plunder is plunder is actually called vassalage this is actually outlined in the net translation notes by the scholars and vassalage means that they agreed upon terms throughout the ancient Near East with Israel would be the suzerain and the lesser nations the or inferior nations to the vassal would they would agree upon contract contractual obligations or conditions and they would just continue what they agreed upon so I don't see any problem with that if they agree if these are agreements that's not slavery I'm sorry there's no way you can wiggle that in there so like the gibby knights for example you talked about Joshua nine so the gibby knights are people that if anybody doesn't know the story and then service I promise I'll be quiet but like you know the story is the gibby knights here come his Israelites they've wiped out Jericho they've wiped out I they're kicking ass and taking names throughout the you know the land of Canaan and the gibby knights go okay what are we going to do because we're Canaanites like we're here they're going to kill us so what do we do well we're going to we're going to put on old clothes and we're going to get you know these old wine skins and we're going to pretend to have traveled from very far we would be one of these cities outside of Canaan proper that's what we're going to feign and so they came and they say oh me and make a peace treaty with us offer us that shalom from Deuteronomy 20 and Joshua yeah all right that's cool and then they find out oh they're actually Canaanites so they they're not wiped out because they've made it a vassalage treaty with them right so they have to honor that treaty but they become water drawlers and he were what he wears of of water cutters of water whatever and that's what they are until this day the text says so you know it that those gibby knights are not taken as slaves proper and like people's houses and all right you're going to work you know in the field and then come back in but they're that they become Corvette labor they become that type of vassal right so I mean would you say that okay we know that that type of context of labor would not be equated with the antebellum south right Josh you would agree with that I would agree with that yeah okay I would like an answer to my question did the master or did the evade that took one of his master's servants to be his wife actually he didn't take her I don't want to suggest that he stole her or kidnapped her he was given a wife from one of the boss's workers hired workers did he not know that that would have been the case that he would have to stay if he married her before he did took her hand in marriage did he not know so there's a couple of issues issue one is that this is something that's going to vary on individual basis did everybody know the entire context of the law at all times during that time was everybody always educated on that is that because because even today in the age of the internet where everybody can pull up our laws right now they don't so I don't think either one of us can actually make a 100% okay argument on whether or not they knew sure sure but the but the point is you want me to answer it or by all means you've probably got more more experience in that particular field so the law is not like envisioning envisioning these these types of questions right so what the law is stating is that just as you see um and this is this is just sort of consensus scholarship um in versus seven through 11 where you have the service as you mentioned the the daughter that's sold as a as an amma uh as a female slave um she is being used for sexual reproduction that's the whole point she's there's debate about whether it's marriage or if it's concubinage seems like it's probably more concubinage but whatever because she is being used for sexual reproduction her status has to change because that's how it is in the engineering um because she she's devalued at that point when you see that next to this you know 22 you see in deuteronomy 22 um so like that's clear uh so what we see in versus two to six is essentially the same thing but for the man so for a male who's coming so this idea that that um that that he has volition in this that that the master is saying hey i got this woman if you're like if you're lonely or something he's i want i want i want another slave i want more right i want another slave so you are i'm using you for sexual reproduction this this is what that male slave is doing so it's not a question of like oh great i get it you know i don't have to spend my nights you know alone anymore would have known that he would be required to stay if he took one of these wives several other wives he could have chose if i think you're assuming volition on his part you're assuming you're assuming that a slave that has a master you're assuming that you're assuming yes he does he does he could leave if he wanted to according to he can leave his master if he wanted to yes according to deuteronomy before making the arrangement before making while he's in serve while he's in servitude the minute that the master presents the life to him he can just leave he can leave at any point are you basing that on deuteronomy 23 15 to 16 yeah i believe so yeah so i mean like i know this comes up a lot and praise i know you like to cite bray westbrook a lot but read what he says about it and what you know kind of kitchen says about it and jean haas and i mean any host of the scholars deuteronomy 23 15 to 16 uh is about slaves that are escaping from foreign lands and praises you talk about all the time this this vassalage you know this uh suzerain vassal treaty the whole point of deuteronomy and you see it over and over again and jill you talked about at the head not the tail the whole point of deuteronomy is don't make treaties with the nations around you right so the if you if you read how that those two verses are um uh are formed he's allowed to come in and stay in any place that he would like in whatever town he would like you know unless he's a levite uh the israelites have their own parcels of land to go back to so i mean like go read what bray westbrook says but these are foreign slaves that are escaping from foreign lands and the point is you don't want to really click um jill yeah go ahead so you mind about finish sure oh sure go ahead sorry all right so you know the point is don't have extradition treaties you see it with she may um so you see this sort of thing in the biblical text but this is about extradition treaties that was only for certain nations but go we'll go ahead um praise yeah so number one uh lemurs 15 15 through 30 makes it really clear that the non-israelites were under one law so i don't i don't think that is a sufficient explanation i don't think that's a sufficient excuse maybe to separate foreigners but also i don't think there's a foreigner distinction period uh if i'm sure you are well read into this literature josh that they didn't there was no ethnic distinction back then there was no um racial distinction that didn't exist so i don't know what that means um so okay homeborn so i guess we can we can do it this way um so you you were either homeborn into the tribes of israel or you were outside with these other religions that had their customs and beliefs and you could be proselytized into the covenant we would call those people foreigners but not by race or not by because we had egyptians that were actually instituted into free i mean they were in exodus 21 2 feet and i'm sure you know this too that the word there in the hebrus of three and it actually means habiru a habiru servant which are egyptians they're canaanites um so if they can come in with if they if they can come in their own volition and these are non-homeborn israelites so i i don't see i don't i don't see that being a sufficient explanation for those so i don't want to i don't want to derail this too much uh a couple of things that i would say though is probably would be good to define ethnicity as you're using it um but again i think that would derail it so i think that would be the thing if we're going to go talking about that understanding what ethnicity means so edomites molybites these are different ethnicities um they're all but anyway i don't want to derail this the other thing is the every habiru connection um is something like you know obviously i think you know about these articles meredith kline uh wrote three articles about this and i mean conclusively i think i'm pretty pretty substantially shows uh this is a gentileic term right so this is this is not talking about if you know dozman i think says it this way uh in his ex's commentary it's like tantalizing to see sorry the connection that we're talking about for everybody in the audience the word hebrew is every um and there's a group of people that we see in the amarna letters you know from the 14th century we see them at newsy for example and they're called the habiru and this is sort of a social class of people they're kind of outcasts you hear about idrami uh david was considered a habiru um but it's this sort of outcast you know their their rebels you know whatever um and so there was this connection because they seem to you know i am bait race and there's this habiru so uh this guttural letter and so maybe there's this connection between them and so there was so dozman says while the the connection the etymological connection is tantalizing i think is the word that he uses the way that the term is used in the biblical corpus and that's what's key joe you were talking about that earlier it's not how the word was originally like put together or where it came from or something um it's how the word is used in the context and when you look through how every is used in the context of the canon of the of the biblical text um it's a gentileic it's like deuteronomy 15 is probably the one of the key places to see this um where it's equates paralleled it's equated with your brother the you know every and every are the male every and the female every are your brother right these are israelites yeah so scholars would yeah yeah that's not it that's not really a debated thing i think we i think we're moving towards describing the system that they use back then maybe you think this system is better what i hear is i don't like it i don't hear any i don't see any demonstration of a gang of past masters calling themselves israelites going around subjecting people like bokeh haran to sex slavery to any sort of forced servitude what i see is a system in which debt is paid by means of serving the one you owe the debt to and to dr josh let me just correct you about the the treaties yes treaties were not uh it was not that they were not to make treaties with anyone god specifically tells them who they are not to treaty with that these people that the canaanites the hittites the jebusites it makes sense of all the attack was on these people was not on an innocent people it was god's judgment against their abominable uh their abominable abominable abominations that they were performing and their sins that they were performing according to genesis 15 deuteronomy 7 we can go to i agree exodus 34 so those were the nations that were listed that were not to be uh that they were not to sign a treaty or an agreement with i agree okay um so i still i'm still looking and searching for someone who can demonstrate that an innocent person they did not owe debt therefore they would not be forced to work their lien they would not have property their property leaned or a lien put on their property they would not be thrown in jail for not paying child support or not paying their taxes tax evasion i'm sure that most of your audience james would have loved to see donald trump thrown in jail for not paying his taxes but yet when the israeli to doing that to the people who are outlaws to people who are uh are not following the law and are not law abiding citizens they somehow are accused of chattel slavery slave biblical slavery does not exist why do i say that because what how we define slavery today is not how they define slavery then so you cannot are you looking so are you looking for a definition of like how scholars define biblical slavery biblical slavery doesn't exist because in every case and where no you're not looking for a definition of biblical scholars give for slavery i well i gave i gave an other do you want a good deal i will give you three different biblical scholars definitions of again and and you've already given me those definitions and again those situations dr josh is what i'm trying to explain has he but i don't think he did okay he can give him again those situations are the same today in those scenarios today we would incarcerate and even and up until you know the past 10 years we would even force them to work we used to call them chain gangs in those same scenarios today so why then if we in america subjugate a prisoner to a lifetime of confinement in some cases and servitude or someone who owes a debt you may be working for mcdonald's but you're really working for city bank until that debt is paid why so it's more sophisticated yes and we've gotten rid of uh we've added a middleman sort of um we can send the tax man to garnish your wages instead of forcing you to work for the person directly short so yes although being more sophisticated the concept is still the same the the lender is is slave to the lender or the borrower excuse me the borrower is slave to the lender that's a age old concept it will always be the case it's the case today it was the case then i need something outside of those scenarios in order for me to believe biblical slavery exists i'm sorry yeah and i kind of want to add this real quick to what jill's state talking about so i'm going to quote raymond westbrook from history of ancient law or ancient european law so in section 4.52 of his book is called property law and this is what he calls property a purchased inherited hired or pledged person so if if that is what if that's going to be considered slavery being someone that's hired then maybe that's what we call a uh presences fallacy and i would like maybe seris do you know what a presences fallacy is presences fallacy is when we take the etymological definition for a word as it was used thousands of years ago and impose a present meaning onto it not quite so if if you uh criticize an older culture with with a modern lens and and actually condemn it that is a presences fallacy here because uh if if if modern terms if we're going to call hired people property or chattel slaves then that's an issue and i think that's where maybe josh i think maybe that's what his definition is i'd like to actually hear that um so josh if you wanted to clear that up i'd love to hear is is that true do you consider a hired person property uh so i think ray westbrook is probably talking about property law there i mean i'd have to look at the passage you're describing it's a 1200 page book two volumes that you're reading from but do you know if he's talking about in the old Babylonian period is he talking about just in his introduction um he's he's talking about this in general to serve vile conditions um what section do you know what section it's one point five section right but is that in his introduction he's got a lengthy introduction no no it's like the introduction okay i mean i'll take a look at it uh but so the the idea of property law for example and i'm just spitballing because i don't know what that section that he's describing is uh talking about specifically but he talks ray westbrook talks about property law as it appears um in exodus 21 for example and he says there's even a tension inside of the way that slaves are treated in exodus 21 uh there are some places that it seems to fall under property law like with the goring ox and then there's somewhere it seems to fall under family law as in verses 20 21 and 26 27 uh so there's you know for so when the slave is gored for example this is under property law the the owner of that slave is remunerated with or you know paid back with 30 shekels of silver right he's made good on his loss he's made whole uh whereas in exodus 21 uh 20 to 21 and 26 27 the uh you know the the crime is committed of course against the person of the slave uh and so there's because there's this retribution in some form um that's he you know he considers that closer to family law so there's there's tension inside but i i do not have to read the section that he's talking about so that's a little of the rabbit trail with the gourd ox thing because i do believe it's negligent or he was not negligent in that case i just think or yeah he was negligent it was just of a misunderstanding or his ignorance or whatever he wasn't paying attention that happened so we can go into that later on but i guess my point here is that i mean that seems to be the case with other scholars too that they call property people chattel people that are hired so i don't know like with modern terminology we have to be careful you have to the contractor contractor so there's a thing that's happened there i i want to point out you listed about four different things that were considered or four different types of people that were considered property from from somebody who was uh in indentured servitude somebody who was you know captured in war somebody in prison then you had uh somebody who's hired and then you focused on somebody who's hired somebody who's hired he's just focused on this ignoring that we probably would consider everyone else in those categories to be a slave like i i don't know why we're focusing just on a person who was hired merely because they're part of the definitions and property law because those they were civil there were citizens the if you if you're going to shift the conversation to warfare then you have to explain to me why the versiles treaty was the way that it was why when we defeated the axis powers in world war one why is it that we forced them to work yes we forced them to pay reparations the reason why the israeli army is it's such as the same today although more sophisticated as i mentioned the reason why these individuals are forced to work that is their punishment for waging war against the nation for waging war against their own children so if israel chooses to go to war with another nation they didn't choose to go to war with another nation they were sent to war just like our soldiers but wait who so israel as an entity just as as a political entity never chose to go to war ever they were sent to war i didn't say israelites i said israel are you talking about modern-day israel no i'm talking about israel as the israelites as a people back then but not individual israelites i'm not saying did an individual the nation of israel yes god created a nation of people and he called them israel yes okay and those people as they existed back then never once chose to go to war correct never were sent by god to fight against amalek they were sent by god to fight against these nations who were committing atrocities that if were occurring today i would hope joe bidey would send a rescue so you keep inserting modern-day politics into this and it's because nothing has changed there's nothing new under the sun if then it's gild if there are these genes that are killing children systematically then we are we ought to i'll say you're not a christian so you don't live under the same moral ethical standard jill none of this matters to the conversation it does so look because if you're hold on hold on just just hang on just hang on to war then you need to demonstrate he's not we would not do the same thing today jill jill situation just to be i hate to i just want to ask you if you can wrap the sentence up jill okay if the situation were the same today would we not go over there and kick butt the versailles let's give just to get i'll talk about the versailles shrie later because they don't understand that it's a more sophisticated form of slavery which is why hitler was so upset which is why you had war war two sirs did you did you you want to say something oh no i'm broken go ahead so in leviticus 25 like this is something that i think is important to recognize right in exodus 21 uh the law is very clear you can take inevitably you can take a heber slave six years keep him set him free in the seventh deuteronomy 15 same thing is true there might be a development there where the female slave is also allowed to go free which might have been different in exodus 21 we don't really know it could just i don't mean to cut you up but you're not explaining whether wait hold on hold on so you were allowed to go for how long jill let's let's let you i agree with sirs here jill let's just to be sure we uh plenty of time i mean i need to know if they're these events are they're voluntary but jill but okay let's let's give them a few minutes and then they'll have a chance to answer okay so uh you can have a a heber slave in exodus 21 have a heber slave in deuteronomy 15 when you get to leviticus 25 the text says no more right good end of verse 39 to 43 if if uh if uh israeli becomes so destitute that he has to sell himself to you you cannot make him do the work of a slave right you have to treat him as a sachir and so this is one of these places that it's very clear the distinction between a hired worker and an evid right now the the debates about what that actually means specifically how the the sachir is you know different from the evid whatever but the text is making it clear that there's a distinction between those two then it says this is where 44 to 46 comes in if you want male and female slaves you get them from the nations around you are from the toshas that are in your they may come it says they may come it's not misfortune the text please uh you may take them so it doesn't say what it says that's not what it says you may purchase them right so purchase you may say you may take them can i um jump in here really so so you were wrong jill you didn't say you may take them that's what you said does it say that they may come they may come yes i can still come voluntarily you need to demonstrate in nobody's making the argument see this is where i think you're making the the false distinction i don't want to hear you talk about how we don't want to hear you talk at all but we've had to do it okay it's it's nobody's making the argument this is why i asked you jill if you wanted me to read my definition of slavery but you don't seem to want to hear it sure i i said nobody's making the argument nobody's making the argument that slavery is only involuntary in fact most of the slavery that occurred in the ancient near east in general is volitional it's technically volitional right so if you look at second king's four one where the where the widow woman is saying help me elisha because the the the creditors coming to take my two sons she's technically entered into that volitionally through her husband right but note that like there's a difference between practical volition and legal volition right and i don't think you're making that distinction yeah i want to jump in here my point thank you for winning the debate for us thank you dr john so again me when i brought up exit 21 one three three to josh i brought up the word to the hebrew what they could call the hebrew but i would say no it's not it's it could mean any it could be homeborn or non-homeborn person the reason why i brought that up is because this is the people that are being mentioned in leviticus 25 44 through 46 and uh so josh are you familiar with um adoption through manumission the process manumission through adoption yes yes you see it at newsy yes very familiar and these would be landless slaves they'd be famine slaves these would be people that have so much debt i don't think it could be it could be uh not even recovered so that's the point of me bringing that up in exit 21 too because if let's see here's here's the problem with slavery with leviticus 25 sorry why do you see that leviticus 25 okay so these would be landless slaves these would be the agrees we're talking about the ones that are famine the ones that are are you know that have unrecoverable debt let's put it that way so they had two ways they can there's two ways they could operate they would they would have to go through the court system they would they would get legally adopted through their master and then when the master died they would receive the house and all the things that the master has and why would you assume that's happening on leviticus 25 44 to 40 because that means oh my that means it's going beyond the the typical six to seven year uh contract so that's that's well they're specifically passed on as inheritance to the children dr just can you demonstrate the levitin leviticus 25 is there in voluntarily no and no one needs to okay so the text the text doesn't the text doesn't deal with that issue it doesn't because can you can you concede the fact that every transaction in leviticus 25 is about 50 something on some odd versus they're all voluntary trans financial transactions land property no that's true false i can't i can't speak to it because the none of us can't speak to the text doesn't speak to that if you buy a piece of property if you ask me a question hold on hold on you ask one question so let me answer you asked it twice you know i mean it's a question i'm very familiar with it oh okay so let me answer the question let's okay let's okay you don't need me to come back do i promise all right you're a cool guy um so in leviticus 25 44 to 46 the text is not being specific about whether these are debt slaves so you have tocha beam for example right these are um may showered argue that these are like you ask me if all of these i said the transactions in leviticus 25 forget about 44 the voluntary or voluntary yes right it's buying a house is that a violent one specific i'm i'm picking one and telling you why i can't say that they all are does that make sense all right i'm asking about the others all the other transactions we're talking about context wait so when you lose on one goalpost you just throw it to the other one no no no i didn't say about leviticus your first your first hold on let dr just let dr josh answer leviticus 25 the entire chapter all of the transactions except for the one you want to pick out and say this is involuntary not you started off saying all that i haven't said that it's involuntary i said not i just said not you dr josh you listen i said not you but most atheists internet tropes most atheists will pull that passage the leviticus 44 to 46 and swear to their god of google that this is an involuntary service so i appreciate the fact that you are not making that same mistake or assumption yeah i don't i don't think so let let me here's my question jill uh you've been talking a lot can you make this short and pity yes it was very short my question is in leviticus 25 every other transaction besides that one are they voluntary business transactions as you would see today buying a home buying land or are they transactions that are forced on or abrasive or uh or someone being subjugated and enforced to sell their land for example yes or no that that seemed very loaded um so no i would say that for the most part uh what you see is a progression of israel if you're not talking about 44 to 46 um what you're you're seeing in the text is a three stage progression of poverty that's coming upon uh the israelite right so he has to sell a parcel of his land and ultimately has to sell all of his land and ultimately has to sell himself right so these would all be legally volitional right they'd all be legally voluntary um that's not really the debate though okay okay thank you for answering my question they were all legal transactions legal and they would be legal and morally ethically i don't think anybody's arguing that any of them are illegal okay 44 to 46 many people argue it means this something really quick jill so these people in viticus 24 or 25 44 to 46 we call the same people in exodus 21 to the very why do you say that though well because they get their ear pierced as to to have a permanent um commitment to their master so all the people around me 15 well no i'll actually exit to 21 uh 233 as well okay maybe during 15 i don't know but i'm yeah i'm specifically going leviticus 25 yeah so i'm just specifically going to 20 or 21 233 and then showing the reference how it's uh comports with leviticus 25 44 to 46 because these are the same people that got their ear pierced as a commitment to their master forever the word forever there's oh i'm the same one used in leviticus 25 46 so considering all the data we i mean we have out there josh i think it's pretty clear that these are not some type of war p o w's or anything like that i think these are just people that were part of the the whole area that encompass israel and they were called hevrues but they were not necessarily homeborn but they were landless uh famine slaves and therefore i don't see how you can uh institute slavery he's not calling them slaves he just said that they were not he doesn't know they definitely are slaves yeah they definitely are slaves yeah according to their language that they hang on hang on so okay uh let me see if i can see you're done okay good so let me see if i can steal my new argument praise just so i understand what you're saying you're making the argument that in exodus 21 two to six these ivory are actually hobby roux yes okay so just so everybody follows this um that's watching and saris i'm really sorry i got to stop talking um you're fine so the hobby roux that you see in newsy for example this is like the one place that we see them these are foreigners that come in they're not necessarily foreigners they could be citizens but they're usually foreigners they come into newsy and they go to often wealthy people and they say look i will serve you as a slave until you die right and i will give you like i'll take care of you until that time and when you die i'll do the proper burial and i'll do funerary rites and all these things and then once there's a there's a contract that's drawn up and once all those obligations are met following the death of the master they are manumitted through adoption right and they inherit yes so like what we see with le aser in genesis 15 this is what abraham's like thinking to do right oh that you know le aser that this the the steward whatever the kjv says in my house will inherit right this is the this is the point this is the this manumission through adoption okay so then praise if that's what you're saying then you would say that these are foreigners in exodus 21 uh because they're coming in just like they were in newsy yep and that that when we see foreigners then in leviticus 25 44 to 46 that those are actually hobby rules okay exactly okay all right so i i understand your argument there are a couple of problems with it that i see um one the way that the biblical text uses hobby rule even in even in exodus 21 um sorry not hobby how it uses evry uh even in exodus 21 seems problematic for that it seems to use it as a gentilic uh even for example in um verse seven or eight maybe even nine of 21 where it talks about the master has no right to sell the daughter to a foreigner right so there seems to be this distinction between an evry and a foreigner but the point is that even even if we granted for a second that evry which doesn't appear in leviticus 25 even if evry means hobby rule and that hobby rule is what's intended in leviticus 25 it doesn't seem to follow because there's no manumission when the master dies which is what it's all about he's passed on as inheritance so there is no manumission at the death it's like the key thing about it there's no manumission well i mean well i don't think any of the texts we indicate that i just think the word olong would necessarily mean that i don't so are you saying the text is supposed to say they were manumitted after the the master dies i mean does that with the the that's what it would say well can you give an example yeah that's what you would see at newsy for example news you would see yeah i mean not just newsy but i mean like that's where it's like um like you can go pick up uh damn there's a new bar anybody there's a new book out i can't remember what it's called but um but uh it talks about that type of manumission but there's an there's an adoption contracts an old Babylonian period by martha roth that you could pick up from eyes and bronze but um yeah the problem with this sorry i've gotten way too technical and serious or as i'm done after i say this i'm so sorry um the the the main problem with this is that the word olong there like we don't i think you're right praise we don't want to read into that some like anachronistic for all eternity like you know into you know the time that will be in heaven or something that's not what i think the text is doing that the word olong there in the same way that you have the eternal covenant the but it olong you know uh or uh you know that what you see even in the slave context next was 21 and deuteronomy 15 is from this point forward right into the into the future indefinitely is the point of olong um so yeah i'm done yeah so um i'm just saying there's scholars on both sides of that there's like i can name several scholars that would take the agrees to be the the same people in leviticus 2544 346 you tell me who they are uh yeah so let me one second i'll pull it up but before i do whether they were the the foreigner i need to know whether they're they're forcefully that's what i need to know what do you define forcefully force servitude that didn't that didn't define it so okay to work against their will you need to define force okay so let me let me give you an example let me give you an example and you tell me if that's what it is um in exodus 21 2 to 6 where it talks about if the master gives a wife forget about who she is she's his property but forget about whether she has a debt or whatever she doesn't put forget about that already dealt with the child that's born the child that's born are the children that are born of that union they're houseborn slaves great so our people today are born into welfare the welfare estate i don't need you to bring up children children are not children are forced by their parents i need a task master with a really israeli flag i don't know if they had flags back then i'm sure they did i need an israeli task master forcing someone into servitude other than in the case of war or a prisoner or someone who owes a debt so you're defining force as illegally take that was the well the yeah what we would define so wait wait that's what i think that's the question i asked you last why would the law stipulate you can illegally take what why would the law stipulate you can illegally take someone why would it do i would the law stipulate no i need a case where the law is now legislating since you believe these law are legislative these laws are legislated they don't okay uh you're a student of westbrook i hear um i wasn't he died before i got here because so i need a case where god is saying okay you have taken this person against their will here is what you need to do for them now instead of exodus 21 16 which says you should be put to death for doing what you just did that's why i would the law say you can do this illegal thing exactly understand your question well that's that's why i don't believe biblical slavery exists because there is no where in the car you use you define slavery as illegally taking someone i define slavery as as i just did earlier for you let me look for that definition for you again i define slavery as we define slavery today when you subject or submit someone to a condition against their will but they don't have freedom or action of their own will so that there's a couple things there the first thing is that we are 30 minutes after the request and i don't think josh actually has had a chance to define so to give his three definitions of slavery um but i there is a thing that i wanted to piggyback off of josh you mentioned that the child that's born into these circumstances they would be a homeborn slave they are here this child what options does this child have like are are they are they are they just stuck here like when are they released that they become of age wait where does it say that where does it say when they become of age deuteronomy 15 the law would apply to them when they became of age until then they were under their parents jurisdiction parents still have you can you could you could you could make the argument in leviticus 25 when the jubilee isn't stated you could make the argument that they're free to go then but i don't know that that's actually the case moreover if you're a if by the hold on there's a thing that i that i want to point out there by this if we had somebody who was legitimately chattel chattel slave in the united states but they went free at one point during their life likely because we we had the emancipation by your definition now this person's not a slave because there was a point in time where they got to be freed so who made them a chattel slave their mother their parents made that decision for them that's not what i'm looking for sir i need you to show you're looking you're looking you need you to show me you're okay with that like if the parent says yes we are going to move and work on this person's farm because this person has money and we don't and you are going to bail hey son guess who's moving to arizona to bail hey hey you're okay with that you're yeah this is servitude what is the way oh it's just serve it yeah i'm confused you're not being now somebody from arizona comes and kidnaps me and says your children are coming to work for me now we have a different story so even in america today what was going on then as far as the servitude is concerned it's a parent's decision to make for their family so you were good with so you agree you agree that a child that is born into a slave family to judge that family member's decision you are in no position i'm not judging i'm not judging the family member's decision yes you are you're judging a parent's decision for their children let's hear from jill do you have the ability to shut the fuck up so uh josh the citation is caren ray and also north those are the two scholars that say that that it's the avery are the same people in leviticus 25 can you read that quote sure yeah i'll do the first one so this is um caren ray the buying of the hebrew servant exists 21 to would most likely refer to a foreign high brew servant in leviticus 25 44 346 and then knows he says the main argument against the assertion of the hebrew of exodus 21 236 was in israelite as leviticus 25 44 ff where it is required that slaves in the possession of an israelite to be foreigners however leviticus 25 is no practical importance as evidence it is more likely that an entire passage from vv 39 ff is on late in some ways to be understood as substantially read with rewritten recapitulation of exodus 21 to but i don't think you want to use that one i mean you might unless you like i don't know what your view of inspiration is but like he's talking about source criticism there like that's a later redaction i don't know if you want to argue that or not um i'll have to look into it but he does but here's what his last part he says does not refer to a certain ethnicity but solely to the slave's social status and that's what i hold i don't believe there's at ethnical distinctions i just think that um that they are social social distinctions rather than eth ethnical when are both of those citations from um let's see here this because i've never heard of caren ray so this is a martin note you go ahead is it martin note yes yes yeah so that's pretty old but yes 1966 yeah and caren ray is who um sorry i'm not trying to put you on this spot oh no no as her book was daily life in ancient mesopotamia so i pages 119 through 20 it's the best i can give you in that source there okay yeah i mean the the reason the marit of climb wrote is three articles in 58 or 59 whatever it was because this was debated right this was a question um but i i don't think there are many scholars that i can't think of one uh but i doubt there are many scholars today that would uh say that there is um any more than an etymological connection possibly between habir and evry um but do you see the predicament here josh um so i'll explain the predicament here so exodus 21 1 through 3 is either a homeborn israelite or it's a foreigner which means there's no rigor among natives so there's no way you can say that there's some type of instituted slavery in exodus 21 at all or you have to get started on so you have to slow down and say it again okay so there's a predicament here i think that it becomes problematic because uh if you read exodus 21 1 through 3 you either interpret the evry as a homeborn which as an israelite right okay one that is non yeah of the nations and which means that there's no rigor that that can be enforced that that can be put upon them and this is leviticus 25 46 that says that right here's yeah here's the other part of the predicament but if they are foreigners they came in voluntarily what you would what you would have to have been so either way i hold on hey hold on what foreigners and sorry if they're foreigners they came in voluntarily so i said mm-hmm go ahead all right i just want to stay with you sorry yeah i'm just yeah it's basically like a syllogism but so premise one is since the former i got premise one sorry i don't want to cut you off i just want to make sure you get through it so the other premise is if they are homeborn that means that there could be no rigor and force or force upon them and this is a leviticus 25 46 so what is it so they come in freely or yeah okay so here's the here's the problem with your syllogism it assumes and and you can hold it like it's okay but you're assuming continuity between exodus 21 and leviticus 25 right you're assuming that these are all saying the same thing just like in a different way if you read john leveson for example the i think the making of the lemma or something i this is sort of just common idea here due to running 15 leviticus 25 these are later texts that are reworking the covenant code of exodus 21 so i i agree with you like it's problematic if they're all to be harmonized right so you run into more problems than this you run into problems like all right so like in leviticus 25 how does the seven-year thing work are they released in the seventh year of the jubilee whichever one comes first like you have to you have to wrestle with that richard averbeck wrote an article on this recently that i i disagree with this position but he's a really good scholar but so yeah i mean there's but this is this is the product of trying to see these not as you know different either different redactions or different sources but as seeing like you know single authorship maybe even mosaic no i wasn't even trying to connect those two i'm just giving if they're foreigners or not either way i don't see how that uh you can imply any type of slavery in leviticus 25 or exodus 21 i'm not even trying to connect them i'm not even trying to do that sorry your first premise sounded like you're making the connection that no uh okay well let me say what i thought you were saying okay go ahead it sounded like you were saying and service i'm sorry i'm gonna be quiet you're fine i keep saying i'm gonna be quiet and then i don't um it sounded like what you were saying is that in exodus 21 2 to 3 uh that you because these are if these are israelites leviticus 25 says that you can't treat israelites as slaves or can't treat them with rigor is what you said okay so what you're doing in in that premise intentionally unintentionally whatever is saying that leviticus 25 informs exodus 21 and i'm saying that they don't no no i'm not even saying inform i'm just using the word foreigner and also israelite in two different in two different contexts if they if they are foreigners then you would have to agree they came in uh voluntarily but if they're not foreigners then they're home board and which means that leviticus 25 46 says you cannot treat your israelites right do you hear what you're saying there you're saying if if if leviticus 25 says this then that means that in exodus 21 this is true and i'm saying that's you that's a false premise oh so you're saying that the that the degree in exodus 21 2 might not necessarily be a foreigner is that what you're saying or i'm saying it's not a foreigner but even if it were leviticus 25 doesn't inform exodus 21 yeah i praise we're probably like down too far in the weeds here seris you should you should go these are good questions though praise they're really good questions i mean i'm i'm gonna be honest there's a part of me that's just enjoying listening the back and forth between you two honestly um but no i i i do want to dial something back we did have the point before you know does does biblical slavery exist the thing that at least jill seems to be searching for praise and josh we're in a different conversation but the thing that jill seems to be searching for and correct me if i'm wrong jill but you are searching for specifically a task master who i mean what are you defining as a task master here i mean before i continue on vocal haran so okay so i asked you to define you gave me a word i'm looking for someone a group an individual someone who is sanctioned by scripture by the god of the bible to kidnap innocent people innocent civilians and force them into servitude that is the only definition of slavery today if you have another then it's not from today it's from the ancient near east where they had more than one definition of slaves so we only ever kidnap slaves there were no slaves born in america they are being kidnapped if they're being held against their will that is a form of kidnapping so legally can i finish please legally legally if you confine someone whether they are born there or not if you confine someone in a area whether they got there voluntarily or not legally that is kidnapping yes i need you to demonstrate from the scriptures that people are being rounded up and forced now don't point to deuteronomy 20 dr joss tried that in the last debate that's warfare i don't need to see examples of warfare so nobody's give one but not that kind warfare well let's let's talk about war since that's your only example in the bible oh my god let's talk about what since that's your only example in the scriptures that's the only thing actually there was a there was another example brought here that wasn't war and that was a so a child is born into a slave family this child is jill child being born born jill so it's so by by this logic any child born in the antebellum south is perfectly scotch free and nothing nothing bad ever happened no because their parents are there by force okay fine how does this change how does this change the reality for the no hold on how does this change the reality for the child if my parents or your honor well your honor he wrote a book i'm waiting for you to show some but anyway i'm i'm asking you i'm answering your honor he wrote a book about i haven't even uh he wrote a book about his sexual exploitation about how many women he slept with therefore rape what i'd need you to do is find a case in which people are forced or in the case of a civil civil or a civilian someone who is law abiding someone who was just sitting and minding their own business and then the evil israeli slave came now if you want to point to war we can talk about war now can i ask a question it was their slavery in the ancient near east outside of israel outside of your chance to respond jill but first i just want to let people know folks we will be going to the q and a shortly and so i want to give you a quick reminder i don't know who made that sound which one was it that was that was pretty it was not me it was me okay i'm sorry but so what we will do i do want to quick remind you folks our guests are linked in the description so that you can either hear or read more from all of our guests as they're linked and that includes if you're listening via the podcast and so by the way folks pull out your favorite podcast app and find us on that favorite podcast app as we've been really excited to see a lot of downloads so it's apparently useful and want to let you know if you're listening right now via back via podcast josh surus and praises and jill's links are all in the description as well there and so back to you jill yes to answer your question the midianites were famous for practicing shadow slavery okay so like um so sorry so like the Babylonians the Assyrians the Hittites all of them okay because kidnapping is illegal in all of those places great that doesn't prove that they didn't practice shadow slavery no i agree so wait hold on but so the fact that the letter of the law did not support them kidnapping and therefore having shadow slaves because they were holding them against their will the fact that the letter of the law did not state specifically that they couldn't or the it for them it does nothing but it's the entire argument if we're talking specifically about israel my argument is that if you were to do what happened to joseph let's say if you were caught even if that person had been sold to you that's the stipulation you might be leaving out that's not in the ancient near eastern law codes if that person was found with you you were put to death even if you did not initially kidnap them so what the what the what joseph's brothers did to their brother was would have been punishable by death under the mosaic law because they sold him against his will to the midianites who were willing to accept that type of or the ishmaelites or the ishmaelites yeah so that would have been punishable by death uh in the old testament or in the mosaic law i'm looking for someone who is put in that position and then god says okay you may do this you may do this this are the rules on how you are to treat this person i would not serve a god that would legislate someone who was forced to work against their will other than a prisoner other than in the same circumstances that we would allow such behavior or such treatment today i feel like prisoners to be forced to works i don't want them just sitting there watching cable i don't even have cable i want them to be forced to work i like the chain gangs and i think the same should be done with prisoners of war as well in fact in fact janeva our own janeva convention says that they are to work based on their ranking they are given certain positions to work that is okay so today so why then just pause just pause come on man just pause okay christ sake look i i i feel like this whole thing was sort of set up one way and then you asked a different question so you you seem to be saying it's illegal to kidnap someone yes everybody agrees in the engineering it's illegal to kidnap someone if they owe money or if that's not kidnapping then like it's it's exactly thank you for proving the point i've been trying to make three hours we don't call it that's why i asked Jesus christ jill stop we don't call it kidnapping today we call it an arrest okay i need you to stop so that i can finish what i'm glad because it's kind of important so what i'm saying is what you're saying is illegal in the heber bible is illegal in the ancient near east that's why i asked you do you think the babilonians had slaves do you think the assyrians had slaves and you said yes and i said well it's illegal to kidnap people there too but you're not that's what i'm saying i think your definition of slavery no you're not listening i'm talking about a civilian i'm not talking about kidnapping a rapist yes the government has to like the kidnapping exactly so what i need so what i need you to do is show in the scriptures that people are being rounded up for no reason whatsoever they don't owe any money they they're not war combatants why would i why would i try to demonstrate something before we go to q and a because that would be our definition of slavery that's your definition of no that's our definition all right that's your definition of slavery that's definitely not mine appreciate you guys we are wanting to remind you folks that our guests are linked in the description so you can hear or read plenty more as we are thrilled to have these guys and we cannot thank them enough it's been a true joy to have our guests and so thank you guys again by the way i heard from tom jump oh he said he got back to me he said that he had slept through his alarm clock he was taking a nap and so tom's okay which we are obviously glad i mean my twin brother like i love tom and also yeah so if anybody is worried why is tom on the thumbnail we well don't worry we'll have him on soon that was the goal tonight but don't worry we'll have him on soon and we will all double uh remind him to you know keep that alarm clock order so wayne burk thanks for your question said tom's chair has eaten tom fortunately that's not true he's just fine however we'll make sure he brings the chair next time too mark read thanks for your super chat said thanks for getting this to happen thanks also the debaters who are participating this has been awesome so thank you guys so much i couldn't agree more folks great talk i appreciate dr josh too it's been it's been good it's been absolutely and then robert lustcom thanks for your question said if biblical so this is praise and jill if biblical slavery was just debt work off then why was moses sent to demand the freedom of all he brews from egypt why would god consider debt repayment a bad thing and order he brews be freed from it who said the israelites were in debt or debt slaves that i say i actually could probably answer that one he hasn't read the he hasn't read the story because because just just to steel man praise and jill they're like their argument is that within the context of israel these things were were very different so the fact that a different nation egypt had a different conceptualization of slavery doesn't suddenly mean that there's an inconsistency here you're not still manning me you're straw manning how is that straw manning because you haven't read the story let's read the story and then and then fucking 12 years in pca good i've never read the story okay now don't worry okay really quick jill and then just because we have a really quick praise in about an hour but this will be 10 seconds the israelites were a vassal or under a vassalage situation with the egyptians meaning that's perfectly fine with god that's perfectly fine with us today just read the versace trees perfectly fine with that germany was a vassal to the ally pops versace thank you um so at one point if you read the darn's narrative meaning story meaning there's a beginning middle end right great school if you read the story at one point the pharaoh there was a new pharaoh who began to treat them harshly he did not treat them as they should be treated as a vassalage that is when god says let my people go read the whole story we're going to jump to the next one i can help you when we're going to the next one very very thanks for your super sticker appreciate your support and thanks for your looks like a thermometer and someone being sick i can't oh no it's a wrench doinbark thank you for that photo of a wrench ed robert oh wait karag nightwolf good to see you again says why did the hebrus give their servants a wife and let them produce children if they couldn't leave with them after the debts paid let's you address that so firstly um there was already provisions made for a male coming in with it with his wife so that was already preset so the problem is if there is a single male who did not have a wife then the then the master would provide him a wife but here's the thing that there was since he provided that then he he can't just let him go because that would that would just um i think infract upon his own service his his own work that he's using him for so yes they would be free to go after their their contractual um their contractual whatever you want to call it a seven year agreement yeah all right doinbark pardon my doinbark thanks for your question of how can a nomination god be moralistically wrong morally wrong is that for us yes yeah i i wouldn't say that he could be if it if if the god definitionally and truly is omniscient that doesn't necessarily mean he could be morally right or wrong and omniscient and omniscience just entails that they know all not that not the nature of their actions yeah i think i'm assuming more omni you're assuming the triumph me yeah a tri-omni guy a truly a truly tri-omni god sure but mere omniscience does not entail a moral ontology you need all goodness as well for that god jen collin dresser thanks for your support says keep the conversation going apparently they enjoyed it super encouraged folks josh seris praise and jill i have to tell you people a lot of positive feedback in the chat they loved it and so thank you guys and mr. lightning 20 says should the slavery laws of exodus 21 and or deuteronomy 25 be enforced today jill and praise god and moral relativism don't mix thou shall not own slaves or yeah i'll answer that yes and they still are enforced today that's the point i was making for three hours yeah i don't see any mission yet i love it i love it today nothing has changed although more sophisticated everything you see in scripture which is where our just war theory comes from some might say everything you see in scripture going on is the case today although being more sophisticated if you need more help with that understanding that come visit my channel and i'll explain further well said gotcha and this one coming in from joe lafano thanks for your encouragement said thank you guys so much i couldn't agree these guys guys are linked in the description what are you waiting for cider and port says to the christians if slavery is excusable based on a debt to be paid what debt does a child born into slavery bear his parents that right so they work together why would the parents and the children be distinctly different no they work together as a family that's why they would sell their their children or family offer labor purposes just like you would have your daughter go mow a lawn if you need some money or something i don't see any difference got you and gabriel k says dr josh i love your samaritan courses oh awesome i'm sorry that they're kind of dry they were some of our first videos but uh there's a book that goes with it that i think is better is that does this refer to samaritan courses on digital hamarabi the channel yeah we have uh free free video courses oh to learn samaritan that channel is linked in the description folks and also that book might be which book is that josh it's learned to read ancient samaritan it follows the videos and we tried to we tried to price it so that it would be affordable it's like 30 bucks you've got it i'll add that in the description as well thanks very much this one coming in from karag night wolf says don't we have due process now for war crimes or people that end up in jail and are people working paying off a debt to mcdonald's or walmart yeah they are and uh although not directly working for the debtor the debtee is working to pay off debt and those funds are being siphoned to the person that he owes or the corporation that he owes so uh oh then again although be it more sophisticated forms of debt collection the concept is still the same gosh that steven steen is slave to the lender appreciate it steven steen nasty guy always he's uh you know but he says i and i quote i can't believe anyone would debate against praise his depth of knowledge of the topic is second to none in this debate absolutely top to bear oh i think he's making fun of you oh a lot of love for me that was self elation is in order we love it uh it was like totally wrong man that's right oh wait josh i mean i can't ask you to do it because i don't want to put you on the spot but if you ever feel like doing like dropping an impression at random of either praise saying that's been totally debunked man um or kent hovind you know like feel free we always love them but like i said when it when the time is right let it be organic and let's see huckleberry sin says you get him service animated cat girl avatar for the win i will never blink and then also i'm sorry wilson says better hair part josh or james definitely james i'll give it to you josh or come on i mean the matthew's deal thanks for your question says to praise and jill if what god says and does is good by definition and slavery was good in the bible why not say that and stop there in your justification i in my opening look at my opening presentation it's there in the 10 commandments that i'll show not covet read go back and rewind it and watch it and then maybe you'll see what that's there i would say that's there gotcha and thank you very much for your question this one coming up from joe lefano says let these biblical apologists continue this debate with matt billahunty i will destroy matt i will destroy him all right well let's let's uh jeweler dare dutch and sprochi let me know if i pronounced it right friend and then they got asked why are women seldom brought up here deuteronomy 22 28 through 29 women who are seized quote unquote and raped must stay with the man for like uh uh stay with the man for life for 50 silver and hi james hi that's so ridiculous it's called the dowry of the virgins in exodus 22 16 50 shekels it's it's consensual sex not even the verbs are safe the same in deuteronomy 22 25 where it actually is seized and forced upon it's um i forgot the word but it's tough thoughts in deuteronomy 22 28 which means to manipulate so please do more biblical research on that i had this is one of the james yeah so yeah tough thoughts you're right that it's tough off the not haas in the hyphel but the the problem is that tough fuss is used all over the place to mean seize to capture someone um so you could see it in first case in several different places but yeah i mean i the majority of scholars are going to say that that's right gosh yeah and thank you very much or well praise sorry i didn't mean to gang up on you if you if you want to have the last word praise since they were originally bringing the objection you will give you the last word right so we we found is actually better words for to fuss it's a cause is another one so i disagree i would like i'd like to see these scholars by the way but i i hate of having to give somebody the last word but it's again a good reason for you to check out the links of our speakers if you want to hear the rebuttal and the bible says dr josh and or service skeptic would either of you care to define the dunning kruger effect for our viewing pleasure sure the dunning kruger effect is it's a cognitive bias it's stating that people with low ability at a task overestimate their ability and intend to believe that they know more than they than they they do gotcha and thank you for your question from and ben c who says if praise or jill we're legislating the laws of a new nation or community or country would they include the biblical rules on slavery or just abolish it i would absolutely use it the 10 commandments absolutely definitely gotcha definitely it's better to work than to sit and rod and just to be sure that you heard it right though um well i mean i guess you're saying yes and you you'd also include the um 10 commandments but good day to you sir says uh thanks for your question by the way says why wasn't this debate title called biblical indentured servitude debate there is a distinct set of laws for Hebrew men and another for heathens no there's only one law a new numbers 15 they said clear but also um there's love your foreigners all over the place i know josh calls and tropes but jesus said that love your neighbor love your foreigner as yourself i don't see it as a trope i think that's i think that's clear so we haven't i mean the golden the golden rule appears all throughout ancient history yeah gotcha and we just appreciate our guests so much oh wait there's that's right brian steven says your patience i got your question asked for jill and praise if a foreign nation had conquered the Hebrews would it have been okay to take their women into forced marriages no gotcha no and also want to let you know folks there's another standard question out there in the chat that forgive me i didn't get into the list but want to say folks if you want to hear more if you have any more questions you can probably get an answer to what the thinker what the speakers think on that question by going to their links in the description and so we wanted to give a huge thank you to our guests dr josh siris jill and praise it's been a true pleasure thanks for hanging out with us we can't end it now we still haven't proven debacle slavery existed just kidding james i just want to say i have an after show if you want to join jill maybe you want to come in soon man yeah i'll be there thanks for having me james thanks dr josh thanks siris thank you guys my pleasure one thing oh forgive me cider and port i did miss yours they said the only thing jill can destroy okay nasty guy i i could have sworn there was another one from cider though that i missed what was it they said um oh yeah we did get that one okay thanks for your patience and i will be back with a post credit scene in just a moment folks about upcoming debates we are pumped for a lot of upcoming debates is going to be a lot of fun including tomorrow night with skylar fiction taking on ken that's going to be a blast and so you don't want to miss that folks that's right here and we will be back in just a moment as i had mentioned with that post credit scene thanks everybody and thanks so much to our speakers it's been a blast it was epic you guys super excited want to let you know first just pumped to hang out with you guys i've got a little bit of homework i'm a little behind on so i can't hang out too long but i do want to let you know about upcoming debates including right there that one's tomorrow night between ken and skylar it's going to be juicy it's going to be epic and i want to say also thanks so much for your kind words brian stevens thanks for your positivity so throw some positivity out for james and the debaters thanks for your support brian we love positivity that means a lot thanks all over catwell for being here good to see you buddy and stripper liquor d mc good to see you again monday skeptical glad you were here fox sushi pumped you made it and is it pronounced paul nordall we are so glad to have you here my dear friend and handsome rick good to see you and yeah we are pumped though you guys we have a lot of epic debates coming up and also want to let you know we are so encouraged folks if you have not yet hit that subscribe button as you don't want to miss some of these upcoming debates that we have it's going to be epic it's going to be juicy i can tell you a controversial figure is coming back this friday night i can't say the name i don't want to spoil the surprise but it's going to be juicy and we are also working on getting tom jump possibly i'm figuring it out when it would be um it might be saturday but that's still i'm kind of figuring that out i am so excited for these debates though and so yes do hit that subscribe button and click that notification bell that way you will be notified every time we go live if you click all and it'll have like a little picture around the bell like it'll show the little like sound waves that's what you want to click and that way every time we go live you will get a notification and you can be here live as we really do enjoy having you here live with us it's very fun and yeah we've got like some epic stuff that we're trying to set up you guys in terms of debates i'm really encouraged and excited about this month like there's going to be a lot of fun ones and so yes yes yes vinny anderson thanks for hanging out with us angelica serenity glad you're here lena thanks for being with us i see jill is in the chat jill says jill and praise win well what do you know and uh zane thunder thanks for being with us buddy luca med medugno thanks for being with us my dear friend says okay good night everybody take care of my friend sandy pigeon good to see you thanks for your support and thanks for your kind words brittle said this seemed to go a lot better than the two weekend debates oh yeah you write about that the weekend whoo that was juicy controversial but yes i heard port says can't wait for the 22nd hopefully my first civil debate here i agree man i think it's going to be a great time and so we are pumped and we just appreciate you guys i'd love getting to say hi good to see you gut sick given who says epic you're right about that erica epic to say the least and jan thilia bagin says thank you for all your effort in making this debate happen james thank you so much that seriously does mean a lot because sometimes people are like why why are they late or i don't you know and this is a small percent most of you are positive and i totally appreciate that but sometimes we get people who are like why are they late and it's like um oftentimes we're especially late with tag team debates because sometimes it's like people forget sometimes who knows what happens but the idea is it's like believe me nobody's more stressed about those than me i hate that when we it's like one thing to be like 10 minutes late it's a youtube channel is not a huge deal but like tonight was like 40 minutes late and i can tell you like for me i always get stressed when that happens and so um yeah sometimes that's the trick is like i can't control like sometimes like it's out of my control uh like if a debater misses uh you know or whatever happens and so it's like we just do our best and so it's like i would encourage those people the one percent it's a small group the one percent i would encourage them to try running a modern day debate it's uh not as easy as you might think sometimes because sometimes it's like oh somebody just didn't show up and then it's like oh i've got it and i got no hard feelings like you know that happens this life not a big deal but it is stressful for me too where i'm like oh man like it's like we're trying our best but uh thank you guys 99 percent of you are positive and supported and i appreciate that especially like as it's been a hard week and so thanks i want to look out for each other my dear friends i hope that i can be here for you um i just appreciate you guys it's like a community and it's fun for me like i honestly i really do love being here it's a joy and so for me it's like man it's a great time and so i hope it is for you as well and pro-social pessimists thanks for being with us my dear friend i see you there and then let's see my pleasure side are important yeah we we really we love it like new people and people who it's like you could say that oftentimes not always but you know i would say that it's uh true that like some of the debaters that come on have big followings like they have a lot of subscribers and it's like yeah probably you could say subscriber count correlates with being articulate like yeah that makes sense uh it'd probably be a pretty pretty decent correlation there um but nonetheless like we're like hey if we have like people who are willing to come on and they're articulate and they're good debaters like and they're reliable and all that good stuff it's like hey come on yeah like modern day debate at gmail.com is my email and so yeah it's like you know we like it it's it's fun it doesn't always have to have to be like you know um somebody with like a half a million subs there are a new york times bestseller and all that like so yeah we do like to mix it up and anthony gills thanks for being here said will you guys ever host a true orthodox versus world orthodox debate um maybe that's new to me um i don't know what that means but i appreciate that thanks all over catwell for your kind words and ben c says waiting for james to debate to jump again oh baby that'd be fun he's my twin brother i mean you know it's always juicy side show nav says a most excellent job pulling this together when you have a last minute dropout very thanks for your kind words my friend that seriously does mean a lot and thanks top hot too for your kind words as well that really does mean uh a lot and so thanks handsome rick for your encouragement and yeah we're pumped though you guys it's it's really cool um let's see we uh but yeah we are pumped with the future a lot of cool stuff and uh atheist addict thanks for being with us my friend and so parry 343 glad for glad you're hanging out with us and let's see zane thunder stoked you're here and l r says what homework james i'm like working on my doctorate so it's really tiring sometimes and i'm behind i'm not i'll be all right like i'll get to sleep by a decent time but i still gotta can't hang out too long tonight because i do hammer that out and um but yeah i uh it's in basically you could say like work psychology like it's called industrial organizational psychology and it's a large university in colorado and it's uh it's busy but it's fun i love it and sometimes you get a little burnt out it's true but nonetheless i do love it and um it's kind of like part of you know i knew what i was getting into i wanted an adventure you know uh the old phrase like ships are safe in the harbor but ships were made for the sea and so um yeah it's fun i think i've got let's see i probably got about maybe another two years of the phd left and then which is i'm like oh that's encouraging like two years two years flies by i've already been in the program about two and a half years and it's like wow it's uh flown by shuler thanks for being with us my friend hope you're doing well and carnivorous ape good to see you again and let's see michael stine good to see you and got sick gibbon uh says hoven versus thompson flat earth debate when's it happening oh gosh i wish but it's hard to get kent kent hoven just really doesn't uh he doesn't want to debate flat earth i've asked him no joke i've asked him about nathan too dare avash says josh has been destroyed to ashes um sorry i read that i i did not mean to like like read that on air it was just i'm just like reading without thinking and so i'm not trying to be i'm not trying to be partisan in any way we love josh we love all the speakers and uh i'm not trying to take a stance with that i just didn't realize what it said when i read it um let's see but yeah thanks for kind words j mike appreciate that that means a lot brittle thanks for your kind words as well and then hannah anerson thanks for your kind words says james i miss most of the most of this but always a pleasure when dr josh is around he is a pleasure josh is really kind to step in for us today sandy pigeon i'm still planning i'm still working out the dissertation topic um probably in the realm of like occupational health psychology and leadership in that context i'm still figuring out the details though because that's pretty vague but mark read thanks for kind words i'd love your work james thanks so much for coming through with this debate it's been a blast thanks for your encouragement man that does mean a lot seriously oh yeah and then platinum says don't forget to join the modern day debate discord thank you so much for saying that and thank you so much for running the discord as i embarrassed to say folks i don't know how to run a discord i don't know how to play or use discord leslie flamans thanks for being here says hi glad you made it and endo xd good to see you again my dear friend and yeah yes once in a while we're going to do some debates on monday's and uh cider and port let's see yeah yeah i just love hanging out with you guys i do appreciate you you guys make my day happier just being here it's fun the more the merrier my friends and also though i am let's see um oh yeah yeah i'm so excited though i think i've told this story a billion times so forgive me for that but i like dad jokes everyone's are welcome thanks for being with us my friend good to see you again j mike thanks for your kind words again that means a lot and then zane thunder thank you for my friend that means a lot and then yeah brian stevens i agree it'd be an epic debate brian f says after show um i think praise is doing one brian f he had mentioned it but he didn't give me the link and pro social pessimist i agree um hoven would actually be a glow birther so it would be quite the debate um let's see but yeah let's see um that's right charlie reid skyler versus ken that's going to be a lot of fun i'm excited for it and then um alexander cooper said wait i missed it what are you studying um basically uh sideshow and have your right it is uh go rams indeed you got it right and uh let's see alexander cooper um i basically like work psychology so like how do we motivate employees what kind of personality tests or cognitive ability tests can we use to do good selection in terms of like who we who organize organizations higher how do we prevent burnout how do we like you name it um all of that stuff and then brook chavis i'm open to that um maybe in terms of like the denomination debates it's just that a lot of people don't um a lot of the people here like aren't into our theology and so they're kind of like um and so we uh what's the word so i'm reluctant to do it i don't know if you do if you would engage that many in the audience i don't know we can see but yeah let's see basically um perry 343 says i got banned oh sorry to hear that um i'm surprised you got banned for saying someone look bored that's interesting um but yeah let's see brian steven says uh yes i am stoked you guys and yeah it was oh man it was uh we've got so much snow here it's nuts it looks crazy there's a lot of snow chilling out here right now because we had a blizzard over the weekend um cider reports says do people in your class or lectures recognize uh you or know about the channel it's only happened once um at the end of a lecture and one of my students came up and he said he's like oh i was watching bosh the other day and i saw you were the moderator for that debate so technically he he only recognized me because he saw me through like bosh's like zoom interface but yeah i think that's the only time it happened but the funny thing is like there are like two stories recently that someone told me like a friend um like i think somebody lr no i'm not on my dissertation yet though i'm hoping to start that this fall and so yeah it'll be a beast of a challenge um but someone called me and they're like yeah i i recommended modern day debate to one of my friends and they um they said that they already watched it they're like oh i already know about that channel and i was like oh that's super encouraging thank you for letting me know that that's i love that and so yeah um sorry i'm behind on chat but carniver state says i'm still waiting for my second to beat with g-man he challenged me and then blocked me sorry to hear that and uh let's see okay i'm almost caught up yeah i'm still learning how to let's see do discord thanks for your kind words dav garr saying james take a take a week off seriously i probably should i kind of do sometimes i am a little tired um but yeah please do hit that like button if you haven't already as we are close you guys is it close wow it is close to 200 tusk you're right thanks for that support and reminding people in the chat uh tusk that means a lot and yeah let's see um yeah you guys are funny um synagog syn synagogue give me brother i forgot how to pronounce it it's been a long day i'm tired so any debates coming that need a participant um maybe let me let me get back to you on that that like really could work um but yeah that's a that's a possibility for real like shoot me a message if you want to remind me um we've got a lot we're setting up right now and then oh that's right carniver state is right that there's an aftershow at praises channel and it's linked in the description his channel in particular is and then pro social pessimist says i think incentives are a start with regard to motivation i think most people value personal autonomy you're right autonomy is a big deal and that's in there's um the theory of self-determination basically emphasizes that autonomy people's freedom and the job really makes a difference in terms of them feeling more motivated they don't feel as motivated when you start taking away their freedom by the way sometimes i think people wonder why is james so um why is james so like like laid back about moderating he's not like jumping in and controlling very often that's why no joke is because self-determination theory would say that if if the debaters are going to like be motivated and engaged and you know like into it then they have to have their autonomy and that's why i purposely like try to let them kind of do their thing and you know it's pretty hands off and so it's that we don't want to like force this control on it to where every debate has to be like so controlled and safe and that's like great um but yeah thank you guys and then boomerask james says stripper liquor you're right about that and then hannah anderson congrats to your daughter says my daughter's finishing up a master's in engineering lots of work doing research writing and present presenting papers oh i believe it yes i uh i believe it and uh bible burner says james james thanks for giving us a placed event thanks for that appreciate that my friend thank you i appreciate your support as yeah i'm pumped about the future though you guys it's uh it's hard for me to emphasize that enough this channel just encourages me it makes me happy dmc says where do you teach let's see i teach undergrads uh i don't want to um assuming i can i think most anybody who's still here is probably like a big you know like pro modern day debate and like friendly person so i teach at uh colorado state university and so it's like uh fort collins which is about an hour north of denver and it's a big school it's like i went to texas tech and that was like about the same size so it's like 30 maybe like i don't know it's at least 30 000 students i'm pretty sure um it's a yeah it's a lot um i'm trying to think about i think that this campus this isn't quite as big as texas tech now that i think about it because i remember i don't know it doesn't feel that way but maybe it's just because i've had more time here to like learn it um but yeah let's see and albert bitcoin thanks for being here my ai friend and then master optics good to see you again and then um let's see i can't remember that's a good idea zane thunder says have a suggestion box and read them out loud every week um maybe i mean i do get a lot of suggestions and people just telling me what to do sometimes i get emails or just do you know do this don't do this topic do this topic have this person and that's only one percent of people but so sometimes i'm like if you you know like i'm like i'm working on it how like i can get in there mik says hey james do you ever consider debating on your own channel it's totally okay if you don't want to i probably will again in the future one there are a couple things in terms of why i don't usually so you can find like old debates that i've had on the channel so i've updated some like old in-person ones um and then you can see some like in the beginning where it was like you know like jared and uh tom and then um chris like so there were people like you can find old debates of me if you search they're like super old um but what happened was especially when the channel started having more controversial topics i decided to be mostly a full time full time um basically a full time moderator in terms of my role in the channel because uh in academia sometimes you get in trouble for being a part of these debates um and so as moderator i kind of had this immunity or protection where um there is one professor for example because you might be like what are you talking about james there's a professor in my own department and she tried no joke she tried to get like me in trouble so she reported my um she reported modern day debate to the dean and she i have no idea why like at that point we hadn't even started having the controversial topics it was like all creation of illusion debates that's like pretty much all we had and for some reason she still was like jay you know look what james is doing in the chair was like what's he doing what's wrong like what is he doing that's bad and uh so yeah it's like most people aren't like that but there are some people in academia that are like kind of um such that it's safer for me to be a moderator for now so that's one of the reasons why but the other thing too is like it's honestly so busy with a phd um wait you wait i mean i could be wrong and more power to her if she keeps crushing it but um are you still out there let's see let me check erica what is it um go ahead sick there she is erica is already in grad school um i'll just say like it's busy in grad school and the and i've gotten um the doctorate in my experience is significantly more intense in terms of what's demanded of you and that's even and you're like oh james like how do you know and it's like i've gotten um like i i've been to a lot of programs so i got like two masters degrees before coming here and i can tell you that those masters neither of them are as intense as the phd there's just a lot more and so it's like it's pretty freaking exhausting maybe it's different in other fields but that's what i've experienced at least brian stevens thanks so much that's 200 likes and then uh pro social pessimists is it uh i see that you take a largely hands-off approach however you do step in when necessary that's true yeah it's like we're all about that kind of like we want to like leave it be and in terms of like let it be you know let it be fun for people and um we like that freedom and so thanks to alexander cooper says i like having your debates on while working on my thesis oh that's cool congrats on your thesis that's awesome i'm glad for you and then dmc says guns up that's right reckon i am uh let's see that's where i got my masters in philosophy was texas tech and i loved it it was a lot of fun and dox d says i want to debate some atheists well you can email me at moderndatabate at gmail.com we are open to taking new people depending ideally people have uh that's the word i'm looking for past experience past debate experience the synagogue are you saying you're close to me and fort collins uh thanks let's see your support bible burner appreciate uh your kind words and uh i love you too and danny 3648 thanks so much for what you love i i love moderating though you might be like kind of like oh james like um and it's true like debating can be more fun but i love moderating like i i enjoy it and it's safe while i get my phd because if i'm like like yeah it's it's a way it's like hey i'm not even debating i'm just moderating i'm trying to be a peacemaker here and that's why i would say yeah we are excited about the future in terms of trying to bring people together from across different groups christian atheist democrat republican you name it folks we do hope you feel welcome seriously we really do appreciate you just being with us and the more the merrier you know gay straight black white you name it folks trans um non trans whatever it is um um we just appreciate you and so thank you everybody for being here um christian muslim um if you're a trump supporter if you're you know a biden supporter biden backer you know we are glad you were here and then dmc says hit the like button do it for james thanks for that my friend appreciate that that does mean a lot and so yeah i would also say my dear friend it is i would highly encourage you your university says praise is strutting around like a pigeon that is seriously funny um but yeah it's seriously uh want to tell you hey folks if you've not tried us out on podcast i would daniel casmer as a good pun everything in moderation you're right and wow alexander that's a heck of a thesis man holy smokes 152 pages that's that's crazy erica you're gonna do so well on the phd you're a machine you're a conscientious machine that i i just think you're gonna do so well and i'm excited for you so congrats erica on getting into her phd program so that's awesome erica i'm really excited for you i'm glad for you and then um let's see i do appreciate you guys and yeah i want to like i said check us out on podcast you guys i am pumped that when i started putting us on the podcast i was thinking like oh is this gonna work or are people gonna think this is kind of dumb and not download it but i've been so encouraged as we are a neutral neutral platform for debates on science religion and politics and so do want to encourage you go you guys for real check us out on your favorite podcast app as we are excited as a yeah it's just been really cool that people have been downloading and people have been giving ratings and so please do rate us that helps we do appreciate that if you were on the podcast app and then also last but not least so sorry cletus 3 4 says do you read questions from twitch i'm so sorry um twitch i'm so slow to read questions from forgive me for that um i i do check in on the twitch though and we do have twitch folks so i would just tell you guys that we're if you prefer twitch over what is it called youtube so um we're on twitch oh and that reminds me um thanks denkonos let's take care chat and james and have a good rest of the day thanks for that my friend we hope you do you hope you have a great rest of your day or night and then yeah but i am i got to tell you guys that thanks brook for your kind words seriously love you too that means a lot and then uh let's see but yeah i am pumped you guys as i want to tell you if you happen to thank you pro social pessimists for saying that i remain neutral i try my best and so that means a lot but um if you have used your amazon prime so a lot of people don't know that you can use a free twitch sub you can subscribe to somebody for free on twitch which normally you'd have to pay it's like i think five bucks you if you have amazon prime though you can actually use amazon prime to get a free twitch sub it's possible and so i'll throw the instructions for how to do that into the chat but i want to remind you guys if you have used your amazon prime free subscription on modern day debate in the past you have to renew it every month and otherwise it unsubscribes you at the end of that month and so we really do appreciate you guys supporting modern day debate through that particular way namely you know if you have amazon prime and you have that free twitch sub that you can use if you use it for modern day debate that definitely helps and we really do thank you for that and want to let you know basically if you use your twitch amazon prime subscription which you it no extra cost to you you know like i said the instructions for how to do that i put at the top of the chat right now i pinned them at the top of the chat you have to renew it every month because otherwise what happens is twitch basically erases or kind of unsubscribes you at the end of each month and so do want to remind you if you have done that in the past and it's been 30 days please do go over to twitch again and subscribe back to modern day debate with that free twitch subscription as like i said it's no extra cost to you but it helps the channel and brian stevens put it well if we had let's say a hundred people that were subscribed via twitch and you're like well how much is that what is it per subscription it's like well let me know or let me tell you oh that's right top hot two said you should put that link in twitch as well and so yeah i will do that so if you are on twitch and you didn't know that i put that link for how you can use your free amazon prime subscription for modern day debate and i just want you to know that i can't remember what i was saying oh we get two dollars and fifty cents per subscription so thanks miss metal or miss metal have a great night as well take care of yourself we love you take care and basically if we had a hundred people who were subscribed to us on twitch that's two hundred fifty dollars a month that's like a at least a one-way like flight for when we want to do in-person debates that could cover a one-way flight for when we want to do in-person debates and sometimes of the year two hundred fifty bucks is enough to cover a round trip so that helps a lot it really does add up you guys and so we do appreciate you guys supporting us that way and uh i think right now we're on 20 Dave Langer asked um james grobe good to see you cletus three four says thanks for addressing the question um yeah absolutely my friend and basically um Dave Langer we've got 25 right now so it's definitely even growing which is awesome and i would think there might be some people that we gotta i've got to give reminders is like uh let them know during the stream like hey if you're subscribed on twitch please re-subscribe because if it's at least if it's with that amazon prime um free twitch sub it you have to renew it every month antipode serial thanks for your super chat man said miss the stream or man or whoever you are man or non man of any type they said miss the stream today but we'll listen later the podcast rules i hope it went well thanks for your kind words antipode serial seriously thanks for that encouragement that that means a lot to me i really do appreciate it my friend and so uh but yeah basically oh brook shavis says i write down the the renew date for twitch so i don't forget i do that too because i've got an amazon prime and so i um put it in my google calendar uh just i just remind myself like hey you gotta renew your twitch sub with your amazon prime free twitch sub but yeah antipode serial i do appreciate that support you have no idea how much that means seriously um you guys it really does mean a lot you guys are huge supportive loving people i just appreciate you guys are just so helpful and that means a lot lorraine drosophilia thanks so much we hope you were said i left 90 day fiance to watch this thank you so much for watching we're just glad you're here so thanks for your support brad faulkner glad you're here with us my dear friend and michael cardwell thanks so much for being with us and uh yeah you guys i'm just like i'm excited i appreciate you guys i love you guys and uh yeah so thank you guys for your support and yep brook is right you can also gift a sub subscription to someone on uh twitch touche you can do that that supports the channel too and last thank you guys for all your support want to let you know we do have patreon like a lot of you let me see if i i don't know like it's linked in the description patreon.com slash modern day debate let me see if this works um it's both linked in the description and we also have modern day debate on patreon and so do want to encourage you my dear friends if you want to join our patreon that is right here in the live chat i just threw it in there and so thank you for that we do appreciate you guys and so dave langer says you can do auto commands for your twitch chat that will put out the message like every 30 minutes for example you just need to set it up oh that's a great idea i will do that dave langer man that is super helpful seriously thank you so much for that i gotta write that down right now so but yeah yeah i'm pumped pump pump pump make you guys um you guys help me through the hard days and you guys help me through the hard you know the hard times like i'm dead serious about that um i didn't uh let's see i had a a good friend last week pass away and you guys have been so supportive and that's meant so much to me you have no idea and this channel um i remember when i was going to do my first debate after it had happened and i was thinking i was like uh do i am i ready for this like because i i had been like seriously grieving um and i still it's kind of comes in waves but basically um the being a moderator doing this has been super helpful uh it's just kind of getting my mind off of the grieving and the kind of any sort of rumination and things like that and so i love doing this i love you guys i appreciate your guys's support thank you for everything and so uh it really does mean more than you know and so i really hope you guys have a great rest of your night i would encourage you um you know those loved ones that you have in your life like uh i would highly recommend like reaching out and letting them know just how much you appreciate them and i was on good terms with um like i wasn't in a fight or anything with the person who passed but you know you can never really it's it's one of those things that's very very difficult to express love or appreciation too much with all the people that you have in your life um and so um i highly encourage you so thanks so much for your guys's kind words topot2 and dave langer and brittle and um got sick given thanks for your kind words and then uh let's see thank you very much brook and i just appreciate that so thanks for your kind words you guys thanks for your your love uh it seriously means a lot as i don't know i'm i'm hoping it'll change me in the sense that i i want it to thanks danie and thanks stripper liquor for your support thanks james grove for your super chat appreciate it buddy um seriously thanks for your support and so um thanks tuss beatbox for that support thanks lorraine says i love this channel impartial to the religion stuff i'm glad you enjoy that topic thanks lorraine and thanks for being with us thanks mark read for your condolences and thanks from james grove for your hug from canada and your support that means a lot and for me i'm hoping that this um event will help me to be a person who i want to be like my friend john who had passed where i want to be a person who loves people no matter where they are no matter you know like completely regardless of like like wealth or status or beauty like all those things like i just want to love people like exactly the way they are and that's something that jill had a quality of in terms of like loving people so well um and so i seriously i just want to live that out the way john did and he is also like the most sacrificial generous kind person i could go on and on telling stories about and and just and tell you about the good things that he was uh and i'm thankful for and so um but yeah thank you guys for your support that means a lot and um yeah so thank you guys i'm optimistic i'm doing okay i've got a lot of support which has been a huge help so in addition to you guys all thank you guys for your kind words and so a lot of friends that i've been in touch with and stuff and and talking on the phone and stuff and i've got um sympathy cards and sending sending to his family um and so i'm really glad to to get to do that and like kind of try to be there for them because they are probably going through way worse than i am right because it was um you know like and in some in in his parents case it was their son um and so it's like i i hopefully i want to be there for them now and it would be a way to honor him because i want to be there for his family and so that's something that um just appreciate you guys and so like thanks so much brook seriously that means a lot and said we care about you thanks really do appreciate it rook um thank you so much for your kind words and no need to i mean appreciate the super chat thank you um but just your guys's presence and your kindness and love and support like um that means so much like just your you know um you guys are really positive and supportive and that means more than you know and so thank you guys for that um but yeah so but yeah i'm i'm you know nonetheless optimistic in the long run in the big picture you could say and so um let's see dave lingers also if you need to um just helps us help sometime setting up those commands on twitch just let me know shoot me an email you should have it thanks my friend i appreciate that thanks i like dad jokes everyone's are welcome thanks for your kind words um and so yeah i just appreciate you guys being here for me thank you guys and then thank you side show nav for your your kind words that means a lot and then also um andrew handelsman we are glad you're here i had mentioned i had a friend pass away and you know but i just appreciate um all your guys's support thanks Lorraine for your kind words who said he sounds like a wonderful person a hundred percent thank you so much for saying that and um thanks antipode cereal for your kind words um but yeah i've i've like yeah it's just thank you guys and but yeah i do appreciate that and then let me just be sure i'm up to um thanks dany 3648 i was like reluctant to be honest to share it because i you know i learned about it wednesday and i was still kind of reluctant because one i was like am i able to talk about this he used to watch this channel um he used to be a big supporter of the channel his sister told me that um he uh he would like mention it to her and encourage her to watch it and she's like i don't know what it is though but um so it's really kind of them and so thank you guys um but yeah let's see um but yeah no no problem andrew handlesman we're glad you're here and then um doting tom let's see but yeah i i just uh bandy says take care and be kind i agree please do take care and be kind my friends and so we appreciate you guys love you guys and then um oh man i am so sorry to hear that your brother passed away two years ago andrew like seriously that is really hard and so um i am totally here for you man um and i i don't know what that's like but i hope you know i care uh and so thanks for sharing that so that i know that i'm not alone and so um but yeah i love you guys thank you guys for everything and i hope you have a great rest of your night we will be back tomorrow it's going to be fun and thank you guys just for all of your your kind words and support and everything you do and so thank you keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable and then um yeah we just uh appreciate you guys i'm i hate reading i know it's like i always say goodbye 10 times because i just like being here with you guys and so thank you guys for making this fun appreciate you and with that keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable everybody take care and have a great rest of your night everybody love you guys