 Welcome back to Think Tech. I'm Jay Fidel. This is you from the North We're talking about solutions for our major social problems and comparing between the US and Canada Out of these problems differ, Canada With our Dr. Ken Rogers our esteemed guest from Kelowna, British Columbia Welcome to the show Ken Hello Jay So let's let's talk about so what are social problems and are we are we more aware of social problems these days? Or could it be that there are more social problems to deal with? You know, I don't remember a big discussion of this when I was a kid. I wonder if you do You know, there were people who were disadvantaged, of course But it was not so prominent an issue then I think as it is now Have things gotten better or worse? Are they the same? Well, I think they're worse I think certainly the public's more aware of it But when you come down to solutions, you know, which is a good way to start is to me There's only four ways you could solve a social problem. You either have a Government policy or legislative thing you have the courts make a decision Or you have a charity or you have a vote, you know by a vote I mean for example in Ohio they voted in favor of of Having abortions, you know, so that you get those four Ways of solving a problem, which then When you just stand back from that that would give you a quick Explanation as to the major differences between Canada and the United States because how those four solutions are dealt with are quite different and You know the key factor in the difference is Let's say citizens United, you know where Your political side in the United States is much less democratic than Canada and By the much less it's because you you have Such a major influence in everything to do with elections by big money by dirty money Similarly the courts in the United States are essentially political politicized So that you Don't have the same way that a social problem is is dealt with You know what one good example is the United States has a a ridiculous Prison population you've got a huge number of people in the United States In prison because of minor marijuana in fractions where marijuana is Legalized in you know quite a few states now You know, but really, you know, I don't know how you're gonna solve that, you know, you need a general pardon for for any marijuana dispute or something or however, I Don't know if you see the US says less democratic than in Canada in terms of its ability to solve Social crisis or not? Well, I have a couple of thoughts about that, you know, I when you get down to it It's it's better of caring for your neighbor It's a matter of a social society with people care for their neighbors and in the days of Nolan Rockwell You know the 30s and 40s the cover of that that evening post on You know all the all the art that he did Reflected caring for your family caring for your neighbor. There were no negative Vectors in any of that and I mean right now I have to say there are a lot of negative vectors in the United States And there is an emergence of and I call it a Republican kind of mentality which is Something about I got mine. I don't care if you have yours And if you have to starve on the street, it's not my problem And I think we see that and increasingly so and Trump is an example of that And and so that's the whole notion of Not caring of not caring about your neighbor But on the other hand, I don't know how to make I don't have a sense I saw a movie on YouTube, which was very very interesting about a young fellow out of I guess in South California who decided he was gonna ride across the country on a spike With the purpose of trying to find out how people felt about each other Whether they were kind and caring about their neighbor and about him and I he went without money without food It was a test to see whether he would find charity Among the people he ran into and he crossed the country both from the west to the east and then back again To the west and he filmed his interactions with people and what you found Invariably in those interactions were that people who represented capital concentrations Didn't care we're not gonna help him We're not gonna provide him with food or water or any kind of assistance But people who had nothing People who were homeless who were disadvantaged they helped them as a matter of humankind and It happened over and over again so much so that you could you know, draw some conclusions about that so I think that the Power power elite and perhaps the middle class is in the category. I really don't care about my neighbor these days But the disadvantage they care It's really a strange place. We've come to Query does that make sense to you? Does it make sense in Canada? Yes, it does and and I would Think of that in a slightly different slant or a way to help describe it is is What's in the common good versus what's my in my individual interest? And if you take a simple example that occurs in every city and in Canada in the United States is There's a piece of land that is needed for a road or an interchange or for expansion of a hospital or some public good purpose But some individual has owns that property and doesn't want to give it up and that the public good Enables that that property can be expropriated and Fairness usually applies and they get get reasonable compensation, you know, the person is all whose Properties expropriated will rumble about that and so on but when you move that to a State or provincial or federal level You suddenly get a different picture, you know and and that Ties in with your comment about the wealthy Those that have you know sort of say keep your hands off go away. I don't care about anybody else. Leave me alone you know, they they want their individual rights to Outrank the public good, you know on the simplest example in in the United States might be the you know abortion or You know, you can have guns, you know, what is in the public good in terms of, you know Assault rifles or assault weapons Now Canada has a ban on assault weapons Where we were able to get, you know, what's in the public good? Trump's individual rights, you know in the US, you know the You citizens united type of of effect where money decides items and so you end up with an individual right Trump's what's in the public good Now if you're trying to say, you know, how do you solve it? You you really need to reverse citizens united you need to stop politicizing the courts you You need to get so that Elected officials do not have their first loyalty to Some big moneybacker But instead, you know, they really rely on the on the public whose public good Therefore should be ranked ahead of the interests of the very wealthy individual Yeah, I would at the fundamental level it's caring is You have to have the sequel of the population citizenry electorate care and I I think we've lost that It's not like it's the politician does the politician care. That's exactly the the issue you've got if you know, they have a wealthy pack that has financed their very expensive political campaign in the US as opposed to in Canada where you have very short periods of time for Elections and and big money and in unions and corporations are just not and bought not able to make Contributions of any meaningful amount Then, you know, the politicians responsibility clearly You know relates to the individuals, you know, what's good for his electorate You know, that's just not the case in the United States and you almost have the same with judges I mean, I think of this Eileen cannon as Sort of an absurd case of how you know, it just looks like, you know She has a debt to Donald Trump for debt to for being appointed and and the the System by which the Republicans get Judges appointed based on their biases Yes, and so, you know, you really get what looks like obviously a lack of proper Dealing by a judge So you would differentiate the level of caring in Canada As against the level of caring in the US No It depends if you if you're talking about at an individual level, I think virtually Canadians and Americans are virtually the same You know, if you were to take, you know, one of the ways of solving Social problems, you know the Salvation Army, it's exactly the same in the United States as it is in Canada It's still it's the Salvation Army in both cases. They deal with the social problems exactly the same way You know, it's really You know, you you've got Basic differences in the United States versus Canada, you know, we do not have a You know major Portion of our population that's non-white now. We still have Islamophobia You know, we still have, you know problems with Immigration, you know, particularly illegal immigration however You know the scale of some of these things are different Um, do you have a capital punishment in Canada? Not really. No, no because there's a there's a Execution supposed to happen like this week of a guy in Alabama and and they tried to Inject him with poison a couple years ago, but it didn't work and he was in pain and and people were not happy with that so they're experimenting on a new way executing prisoners in in Alabama and It's by the way just a footnote. It's it's giving him a mask of nitrogen Which actually, you know deep he prives him of oxygen and he dies for my poxigen starvation Anyway, there's a you know a tult going on people watch, you know, there's no federal ban on it in fact I I'm not I think maybe the federal government still permits a capital punishment And we really have to get by that. I mean it reflects a certain morality that we should It is barbaric and you when you compare it to other countries like Canada and and Europe most of Western Europe all of which I'm doesn't have capital punishment and they have a very enlightened system and and they don't have as many Prisoners stuck away in trails for minor offenses as we have So it all reflects a level of caring, but then you get these various aspects of the let me call it's a social Safety net you've mentioned some of them poverty joblessness all-newsness racism inequality immigration of course health care education Abortion, I'm sure there is some others we could name and I think some of those things you mentioned Canada is ahead of us For example, I isn't abortion permitted in Canada it's nationally permitted and You know, we would have the health care that pays for Yeah, you have a commendable health care system and Well, it's not perfect. No never sure, you know, you can You know what you have when you have the public purse Paying for your health care Then you have, you know, some lady wants to have plastic surgery and thinks that that should be covered By the public health care, you know, which is not, you know however You know, you have an endless push for the public Health care to cover more and more and more, you know, where the politicians tend to Let's say in Canada right now one of the key things is a is at the federal level because it's a takes two parties together to You know have the control of the government while the minor of those two parties is the is the furthest left wing in Canada very Bernie Bernie Sanders level of left wing and they want to have the Canadian health care system You know pay for dental care, you know and and fairly elaborately where You know the public would criticize the Canadian health care system is that it is that you have some Unreasonable wait times for some types of things like a knee surgery or hip surgery because you know those aren't Essential for somebody's life You know, there is no wait time if you need, you know, heart surgery or you know, you arrive at the hospital and you have some, you know exotic infection they handle it immediately and It doesn't matter what the cost is, you know, for example You know my brother arrived at a hospital in Vancouver a few years ago and Fortunately His wife Recognized that you know, he had symptoms that symptoms that were similar to polio She was a child physiotherapist in her early days and and she says well, he doesn't have polio But it's perhaps it's gill and barry and And the treatments for gill and barry are like, you know, ten thousand dollars a click You know and and and it was he was just treated instantly no hesitation You know a dangerous thing where you know the lobby somebody may be sitting there grumbling because they got a wait in line for Hips or jury or from somebody to assess with how their cure for their common cold is coming along But you know, there's criticism of the Canadian healthcare system, but there is no politician in Canada would dare to say they want to You know take it away, you know, which in the US that's very Prominent, you know that we should you know, the Republicans want to kick out of Obamacare That just to a Canadian. That's just great insanity Yeah, and there are some states that don't that it do not encourage in fact They they have not agreed to allow Obamacare registrations in their states It's incredible and it can only be a good thing for people, but they still don't want the benefits to flow to the Disadvantage, so, you know, if you look at it healthcare, I mean, I know there are issues or issues in the national health service in Britain also But but the fact is that the worst of all of all of these is is the US not necessarily in terms of Finding a brilliant doctor with a brilliant education and a brilliant record that had to do some really exotic surgery on you Not that because money and connections will get you that I'm talking about the guy in let me pick Alabama again Who doesn't get any healthcare at all zero and And there are people in Congress would like to cut off Medicare also So, you know, I think on that one, you know, you'll have to agree with me that whatever is going on in Canada Is better than for the average Joe is better than in the US There are huge numbers of people who simply don't get else care and they die and There are those in the political spectrum many of them who like that. That's what they want to see They don't want this individual and the theory sort of like Trump is if he was a better person He'd have more money and if he had more money, he'd have more healthcare. It's his fault Okay, and that's that pervades This notion of I got mine and I don't care if you get yours But let's not laugh. You're good. I agree with you Only to a certain extent, you know, if you're a a moderately wealthy individual, let's let's say you're you know a Chiropractor a dentist a lawyer at a medical doctor, you're not you're not a billionaire You're not a multimillionaire, but you've got you know, you're not suffering financially Your medical care in the United States would be better than in Canada and the reason for that is is you lay down a couple bucks and you can get your Knee surgery done right away. Your wife can have her plastic surgery You know, you can have your hip surgery. You can have whatever you want very quickly You know, but you pay for it in Canada that level of wealth doesn't get you diddly squat you know the Multimultimillionaire they can in Canada they can afford to go to Mayo Clinic and bump off Somebody else for priority and get whatever they want, you know, but but you've got that upper middle class level of person in the United States That you know, it really is a very influential block of the public which is necessary to Perpetuate the American system or the stupidity in the health system, you know in my mind because they don't worry they don't have a problem you know and Let's you know so but as a generalization for for the majority of the population the Canadian system is far better for health care in the US Let's let's go to the next topic which actually wraps around health care in many ways, and it's just poverty is people who are stuck People who are stuck in Alabama and all those states around there in the south where they can never make a good living But they can't get an abortion And they wind up with a big family that can't afford Where where they wind up homeless so easy to be homeless in this country because the cost of housing is is so steep And and then you know, you wind up on the street now I know, you know, we've talked before about some of the Canadian cities like Vancouver that a lot of people on the street But I think it's the metric for the society the percentage of people on the street percentage of people who can't eat Don't have enough money for food There are no federal programs to take care of them. I believe that Canada has some programs. Maybe better I don't know. You'll have to tell me But dealing with poverty is a huge problem in it. Of course we had poverty in the 30s you know the whole Okiaki move to California and the dustbin of the Middle West People were really poor But they all climbed out of it and the war got people better off some now and the 50s and the 60s But somewhere along the way We started seeing homeless. We started seeing poverty on the street in our own neighborhoods affecting Civil society and it seems to be increasing and the question is How much of a metric is it and and how well is Canada doing visa via the US? Well Canada is a much better social safety net than the United States does You know our unemployment insurance Is easier to obtain and it lasts for a longer period of time and the amount is greater We have for example Anybody who has any kind of job is required it has a payroll deduction to pay into the Canada pension plan we have a national pension plan and We have a you know old-age security that Automatically clicks in you know if you're over a certain age Usually 65, but you can do things to get that adjusted And so that you know your your seniors are generally better off because they've paid into this Obligated pension plan system, you know or compulsory pension plan system and also You know they get their old-age security The you know at the other end of the scale, you know younger people You know we got the same problems as the US in the sense that you've got the lack of institutions for the mentally ill We've got a lack of institutions institutionalized places for any kinds of addiction whether they're drugs or Alcohol or some combination, you know and you know in my mind You know the majority of people living on the street have some combination of Drug addiction alcoholism addiction or mental illness, you know, which makes them reasonably Unemployable and you know they've had with those problems Enough length of time that their social safety net Benefits tend to start to run out Even though the Canadian benefits last longer than the those in the US now you mentioned Vancouver You know and you also mentioned Mississippi or no, Alabama Well, if you're homeless in Alabama, you're in a lot better shape than if you're homeless in Edmonton, Alberta Why don't just well it was 40 degrees below zero in Edmonton last week And and the reason that Vancouver has a fair amount of of a Street people is that you know people have gone who are in that Mood let's call it or in that condition they have purposely moved from you know Manitoba, Alberta and Saskatchewan To the west coast of Canada because you know in the winter, you know, like it's a rarely Below zero in in Vancouver in Vancouver Island and You know, it's much like the same weather is Seattle, you know Seattle has better weather than Montana or or Minneapolis, you know or Chicago, you know It's you know, even though it may be a higher latitude than Chicago or Denver It stood a lot better where they're all around. It's certainly for the homeless person So Vancouver, you know, just gets a little bit extra dose of From from its neighbors But generally I would guess that the Mess in terms of homelessness is very similar between Canada and the United States Yeah, so it's really interesting how when we were kids, uh, yeah, sure there were hobos riding the freight trains out of the 30s and You know, there were there were bums in the Bowery what not but not to the same degree not so visible not so tell your heart out Now we have all many thousands and how's tens of thousands here in Harlem and I'm sure the same, you know in any major city not only at Canada, but in Europe everywhere I don't think they permit that though with China or Japan So it really depends on the government and and that ultimately depends on how the government feels about the safety net Whether it should be kind or maybe not so kind but you get them off the street anyway all this raises the question can of of migration migration saved from From the United States to Canada where people back in 2016 2017. So oh my god, Trump is gonna be president I got a United He revealed himself pretty early in game and there were people who were you know trying to get to Canada because they felt The Canada was some more liberal caring if you will place Where you can have a better life On the other hand, you don't qualify for these social safety net benefits so easily I think you have to be a permanent resident of Canada before you qualify And so it's not like everybody can walk over the border and have the benefit of these Social safety net elements. I'm but query It'll what's it like right in reviewing things from the show I stumbled into a number of websites It said come on up to Canada. You'll like it here. He misses even if it's cold. You'll like it And politically I think I would like it, but I wonder if it would like me Well, it it depends on Who you are for you know what came to my mind right away was was when you do international traveling very often you will find um or I found That Americans would tell everybody they were Canadian And it was you know to a great extent You know and maybe I have a biased way of saying it is that um You know Americans are perceived in many travel locations like in the Caribbean and South America and in That time they're very arrogant very pompous You know very loud pushy, you know, they're you know in the image of Canadians are polite and cordial You know and and less pushy and and so that you know, they're Treated as you say, you know, the poor person treats the guy traveling across the u.s better than You know the wealthy person and and you know that Travel response was kind of an interesting one is And it come you know, it suck in my mind feeds back to the general overall feel of um of why The u.s has um Push your side for individual rights should trump The public good You know and I can do what I want and if I've got enough money to travel I can tell everybody to stick it and scream and be boorish if I feel like it and And uh, you know average Canadian just doesn't do that Well, um Could I come to Canada and take advantage of that? Could I come to Canada and have the social safety net and all these Retirement benefits you're talking about the health benefits you're talking about um the welfare welfare services Um, could I have that or is that you're close to me as a no, you guys haven't been there that long Well, you you can have all the benefits in Canada um If you meet certain Steps, you know, it's easier to become a Canadian citizen than it is to become an American citizen It's easier to get Landed immigrant status in Canada than it is in the u.s now Canada In a lot of ways if you think of say new zealand You know, New Zealand doesn't have a a great immigration problem You know, and that's because you know, it's out in the middle of the pacific ocean You know, you you know, you can't get there Canada to a great extent is is in that same Thing we don't have a long border with Mexico that people can walk across We got an extremely long bar border with the united states You know, but people don't and it's an unguarded border to a great extent for the entire length of it And it's not really a problem to either Canada or the u.s. People just don't Walk across either way, you know, there's the concern of you know moving drugs Uh one way or the other, you know, if it's or the moving guns from the u.s to Canada, but uh You know generally, uh If you Are an american, you know, it's easier to get um Immigration into Canada than it is the other way around like to be a You know the u.s Has the painful steps to go through You know, you get from a green card is one thing But people can be on green cards for 10 years and Still don't qualify for citizenship in Canada. That's it's an easier process To get to where you're you're fully a canadian citizen with all the rights that everybody else has We don't have a whole bunch of these in between categories Well, you're selling me on the social side of it, you know, there's not nearly as much racism And inequality immigration is not a problem Abortion is not a problem and I understand there's some great institutions of higher education All across canada, which don't have the same problems. We've been seeing it at congress lately so You know, I think the canadiens the canadian government And I suppose the provinces which in many ways govern You know the people in that province Is is actually doing better for the average the average bill It's it's a more democratic country, isn't it and you know, the result is that if you had to make a choice You would want to do that are people doing that? Are they coming over the border? Are they settling and starting businesses and lives? in british columbia There are lots of americans Moving to canada, but there are also lots of canadiens moving to the us now usually the the canadiens that are moving to the us You know are usually reasonably well educated people that that they're working for amazon in canada and then you know because they're talented they move them to dalas or san francisco or somewhere and And just for economic opportunity People move back and forth um the you know like canada has a higher taxes for an individual that in the us you know, so a lot of the advantages for individuals depends on What is your education and what is your income and therefore what will your net standard of living be? In one place as opposed to another You know if you're in the in the bottom 50 percent you're sure better off in canada and you are in the us if you're in the in the You know second to the tenth percentile. You probably Do just as well or better in the united states? Yeah, we have to make these comparisons, don't we though? Especially now in in the throes of the unknown administration starting When you said well, would you use unknown administration? It's interesting as a little sideline on You know social issue or what's in the public good the federal government just had sort of you know a panic meeting of of all of their members of parliament On the thing of um, what will we do if trump wins? Just sheer panic No, I think that's happening all over the world. There's some yes, we're having a show on that very question uh vis-a-vis europe Uh on thursday this week So a very interesting question and I am happy to hear that people are alert and as federal government is alert And to the fact that things will change on day one If and when he is elected Well, well if you use that, you know, it's a bit of an aside from from our social safety net but you know, we're talking about You know as a um social problem, you know as if our from a canadian point of view if our Best neighbor, you know where we share Without you know, I don't know how many miles 10,000 miles of border Etc suddenly you know Goes into a Heavy a high tariff mode You know, well canada buys You know An awful lot out of its food From the united states, you know, let's say california produces Probably all you know 90 percent of the green vegetables that canadians eat Well, if you suddenly, you know Stop buying canadian goods Then we can't buy anything back You know, it's but it's not only that it you know, you say it's uh, it's not it's off the path of our Inquiry into social safety net, but not not really You know when I started to Look at the web for materials to shape the issues in the show I found uh, I found some studies Uh comparing specifically comparing uh social programs in canada and the us And there were hundreds of pages long by by very credible organization And uh that comparison has to has to go on We know from this discussion, they're not exactly the same But we know also that you look across the border See what's going on and maybe there's something we can learn Something canada can learn from the us and more important what the us can learn from canada I think that's a better inquiry right there if trump is elected And it's right for the federal government to consider what might change The social safety net in this country will change And that will probably have an effect on other countries don't you agree? I do but you know the united states isn't uniform Uh one of the most Fantastic places in the united states is utah You know the you know sometimes I've heard americans pick fun at uh or make jabs at the marmin religion, but But when you used your example of the fellow crossing the united states with his bicycle and who would help them You know the you know As I started then uh at the first of this um discussion by saying that uh one of the key methods of Handling social problems Is charity Well the marmin church in utah really pushes very heavily a uh A neighborhood system Where the neighborhood works really closely together and if if somebody loses their job You know there are you know two or three people that are qualified in the area of that person that the Local stake or what they call it let's call it the local church um those people bear a responsibility to Help that person find a job they show up at the At the person's house Check out whether they've got a a pantry with enough food and how the kids are doing and and there's a You know a self-help Society that is just quite fantastic You know when I left it that is so interesting because You mentioned at the very outset of the show camp that one of the uh institutions in in any democratic government It's going to be the religious community the community and the religious community both and of course You know the marlin church is doing is to proselytize new members and and look good But you know it what it demonstrates among other things demonstrates many things But what it demonstrates is that government people assume government's going to take care of them and they're wrong Government isn't going to take care of them different countries different levels But in general democratic governments can only go so far For many reasons except the scandinavia. It's different in scandinavia But let me let me say that it's a great point to end the show to say that When you talk about the Mormons when you talk about religion helping This is in many religions around the world. It's because government there isn't doing its job At least in part Anyway, Ken, uh, sorry we don't have more time. Uh, thank you very much for this important discussion. I really appreciate it Aloha from western canada where it's pretty cold this week Aloha from hawaii where it's quite beautiful. Thank you very much. Ken. Ken rogers retired Canadian businessman Alonah british. Thank you