 Welcome, everyone, to another edition of Crisis Conversations, live from the Better Life Lab. This is our 22nd weekly live interactive conversation, where we've come together to try to understand the pandemic, the economic downturn, the racial justice reckoning. That's all happening all at once, trying to understand what's happening, really explore the cracks in our system that it's exposing, and get some great stories and experts to come together to help us really think about how can we, what are the lessons that we're learning so that we can emerge better. I want to let everyone know that we're going to be taking a break after this episode today. We'll be coming back in October, and we'll be looking at the issue of care, paid and unpaid care, and how it's shaping the 2020 election. So we hope that you'll join us again. But today, I'm very excited to welcome this amazing panel together. Today we're going to be talking about women, diversity, and leadership. Here we are at a really pivotal historic moment where we have the first woman of color to lead a, for a national office to lead a major, on a national office at a major party ticket. And yet at the same time, when you look at statistics all across the board in every sector and every organization, from academia to politics to corporate culture, you know, here we have women who graduated from college in greater numbers than men for decades. And yet we have a real dearth of women in leadership positions and even a greater dearth when we look at women of color. So today we're going to look at that, but we're going to explore not only why, you know, how the pandemic is and this racial justice reckoning is shaping that, but really look at what can we do moving forward. What do we need to change? So I'd like to welcome our panelists. We've got Adrienne Penta. She's the managing director at Brown Brothers Harriman and executive director of the Center for Women and Wealth. We've got Alana Fisher. She's the CEO of WISPs. It's a growing snack food company where 100% of the C-suite executives are women. We've also got Laura Morgan Roberts. She's a professor of practice at the University of Virginia's Darden School of Business and she's the author of among many other articles and books of beating the odds and race and leadership, the black experience in the workplace. And we've also got Toni Irving. She's also a professor of practice at the University of Virginia's Darden School of Business and she's the former executive director of Get In Chicago where she led a $45 million social impact fund to reduce gun violence. So welcome to all the panelists and I'm so excited. Let's just jump right in. So Laura, I'd like to start with you and I wanted to sort of have you give a sense of the landscape that's out there. But I think let's not spend a whole lot of time on that because we know the landscape is pretty awful for women and particularly women of color in positions of power and leadership. And what I'd really like to certainly give us a landscape but really your research has been so fascinating about the stories we tell ourselves and the narratives that shape not only our attitudes but our behaviors and really play a huge role in why the numbers look so, so lopsided. So Laura, let me let me turn to you. Now that's sort of a two per question. Yeah, thank you so much Bridget. It's wonderful to be here today and dialogue with you and with Toni, Alana and Adrian on this important topic we are at yet another critical juncture around leadership where we have to take seriously some of our beliefs and assumptions about race and gender and power within our workplaces, within our communities, within our world. And those beliefs and assumptions are planted and seeded and nurtured throughout the lifespan. I'm really interested in understanding the science of maximizing human potential and ways in which social dynamics and personal beliefs influence our ability to grow and become the best of who we are and who we can be. And so in that vein some of the work that we've done has been trying to understand the different narratives that people have about themselves as valued contributors. We find some interesting patterns about the kinds of beliefs that we internalize about how we're valued contributors. For instance, there are gendered patterns of beliefs about being a valued contributor whereas for women it's often I get the job done when I'm at my best. For men they're more likely to say I get other people to get the job done when I'm at my best. It's an interesting dynamic around you know being the person who persists and beats the odds as the leader versus seeing oneself as the mobilizer who's like in charge of things and getting other people to execute. That's implying an important power dynamic. These narratives tell us things about our place our significance our legitimacy stereotypes abound around women being nurturers and caregivers but when we look at patterns of occupational representation and caregiving in particular we see that women of color are disproportionately overrepresented in those roles like it's not just within their own homes but being the nurturers the caregivers the domestic support people who are in subservient roles and positions of caregiving in other people's households so they're serving this role for men they're also serving this role for white women so how does this translate to diversity and gender and leadership in the organizations that we study and that we we teach right you've got these dynamics in your communities in your homes what's playing out in the workplace we know that women leaders in particular face a double bind so they are supposed to embody these stereotypes of warmth you're nurturing you're a caregiver that's how you're a value contributor in our organization please keep doing all of that invisible work for us behind the scenes you know taking care of that stuff and it's often unnoticed and unrewarded sort of the office housework right is that office housework right but you also need to prove that you deserve to be here so you have to show that you're competent so that double bind is be a value contributor be somebody that everybody feels comfortable with don't come across as being too aggressive and so women are having to walk that fine line you know it's so interesting that you talk about you know kind of the expectations or assumptions and narratives and you say that women of color are so overrepresented in care work and don't you know housework child care at home health care and so is that part of what then is a barrier then to move into leadership positions it's sort of like this cognitive dissonance between you know kind of sort of how society views you know or sees women in these roles and then does that is that part of what is in a barrier then to reach into the into those higher leadership positions well it is it reinforces and manifests itself even when women of color get into leadership positions so Tony I'm sorry I didn't mean to cut you off you had something no no I think that you know to Laura's point the irony of course even in this exceptional moment of COVID is that you see that women are overwhelmingly doing you know the work at home even when both people work but what's also so interesting about it is at the core it's crisis management right it's logistics it's leadership it's all of these factors in play that everyone's comfortable that women can get it done in that dynamic with the most important scenario of our lives which are our families and our children and why doesn't that then translate to the moment in the office because it's been demonstrated and people are deferring to that leadership and expertise and so I don't think that there is any issue around whether or not women are capable so how is that Tony how has that played out in your own journey you know let's you know with your own kind of navigation of what you know barriers and stereotypes to get you into positions of leadership you know I think that it becomes so important to just be in front of people right because there we know that all these sort of notions about what women are positioned to do are capable of doing or projected on us and it's not until you can get into a space and so I will say that women who are amazing at networking and relationship building that has been something that's been very meaningful for me that being able to talk to a range of people let them know what my needs are so that when something and an opportunity pops up that they can flag that for me and I would say that you know women probably have a more of a tendency to not leverage our relationships we build them but do we make use of them and so making the ask I think is crucial we see these asks happening all around us I have been so amazed I mean I know people you know I'm thinking in for instance of a the CEO of a major hedge fund and this person who is extremely wealthy and extremely powerful has no problem making a call to another CEO about getting his son's best friend a job right and that's not even for himself or his actual son and so these are the kinds of circuitries that are going on all around us and it's not just that if we don't participate we get we don't get what we want but if we don't participate we get left further behind than everyone else because that's how things are moving forward that's so interesting I want to come back to that notion of the circuitry in the system but Adrian let me go to you at this point you've been hosting some really interesting you know webinars and gatherings of women in leadership especially during the pandemic and some of the challenges that they're facing in addition to the double binds that that Tony and Laura have been talking about can you tell us a little bit about what some of these you know what are women leaders facing and what are some of the things that you guys are talking about or you all are talking about I'm trying really hard not to say guys anymore what you all are talking about in these conversations thanks Bridget and thanks for having me so a lot of our work revolves around women business owners and executives so very high functioning female leaders and so during the time this time when we can't actually be together we have been convening small groups of women and Alana was part of one of our one of our convenings of women CEOs executives business owners and facilitating conversations about what's happening right now and what's going on in in companies and with leadership and there's definitely two sides of this coin I think that the the negative the difficult side for all of us is that we can no longer be the ideal worker right and Bridget you introduced me this idea of the ideal worker who's somebody super efficient has no distractions has no kids or dogs or plants or anything in their lives and I'm listening to like probably my husband Hong Kong the car right now that's why I went on mute and so we all have all these distractions and we can't be as efficient as we used to be and so I think there's a real recognition by a lot of very type a high performing women that I can no longer do the 80 hour week that I used to do and that's okay the other side of that point is what is the ideal leader in this moment and I think this is where the real opportunity is for women and women leaders in particular because we are redefining what the ideal leader looks like and for a very long time the ideal leader was modeled on really a male leader and the male CEO the male whoever it is right that was very commanding and non-emotional and directive in the workplace maybe and there's you know there's there's female leadership characteristics and male leadership characteristics and there's been a lot of research done on that and I think what we're seeing now is that leaders who can embrace those empathetic emotional leadership characteristics are really leading their workforces in their countries through this incredible moment of change which is both around you know racial justice and very emotional conversations that we're having in the workplace like never before I've been involved in more conversations at work where I've been emotional or cried in the last six months than ever in my career and then you know as we work from home and we endeavor to you know be good workers we're bringing this incredibly authentic understanding of who we are into the workplace and I've had kids come in here screaming and crying and dogs barking and all of us have and I think that as we are able to be leaders who are both empathetic emotional and really authentic about being caregivers and having other parts of our lives we see women excelling in leadership roles in a way that I've certainly never seen at and it is in so many instances before in my life and even in my organization I see our female partners really leading the way for a lot of these efforts around diversity inclusion racial justice and what it means to be you know be an employee be a worker in a time that we cannot leave our homes wow you know Alana let's bring you in at this point you know some of so many of the points that Adrienne is making we have these assumptions that there are these male characteristics and they're you know for the you know hard charging and then if a woman tries to be hard charging she gets dinged for being too aggressive or you know that she's not likable and you know that some of those kind of communications and you know empathy authenticity they're sort of seen as soft skills and then soft just sort of denigrated and sort of feminized can you talk a little bit about you know your own journey and then also in this moment in the pandemic you know how some of that is playing out for you as a as a leader you know I think I mean I think that's right I think about we think about being female leaders all the time is being a conflict between being caring people and being tough leaders and I just feel like that's a little bit of a a false dichotomy you can be caring and tough at the same time and I think you know those of us that are our moms and dads know that I mean that's what parenting is and that's what a lot of our relationships are and so you know I think what for me really changed was when when COVID hit was that you know I I run a wonderful team at a fast growing company there was a lot of excitement and just positivity around the company and then COVID hit we were in Manhattan our offices are in Manhattan it was very very scary and upsetting for all of us people got sick people had to close the office suddenly we had to change our plans we make food and at that point we weren't sure if you know what how COVID was transmitting and whether food was a potential way to get COVID and so there was just there was there was just a lot of angst and I think we've all to some extent either been people or worked with people who have had personal issues pop up in their lives that have distracted them from work and you can sort of manage that on a team by saying hey I'll cover for you you know take a little bit of time take take take the week off take Fridays off whatever when suddenly that's your whole entire company and not only is that is it incredibly stressful and scary but work itself is suddenly really uncertain and everybody's really afraid about you know about the economy it just felt suddenly like we didn't I needed to do both of those things be very very compassionate and be lead with care and protecting the team and then also you know be focused on keeping the business going we had a lot of work to do that we hadn't had to do before there was a pandemic that we hadn't planned for and we didn't have extra people to do it and so normally you'd like to give people some time and a break and instead I was asking people to work more and more and while they were moving their families and working from home and dealing with the kids and the dogs and all of that stuff and so I think for for me it was just about you know being very very communicative and and acknowledging that recognizing what what I was asking for appreciating what people were doing and people they did step up I think there was a sense of let's let's link arms and do this all let's virtually link arms and and I'll do this together um I wasn't I don't think I was tough in a in a sort of old-fashioned way of like don't do that that's bad but it's definitely like we've got a lot of work to do we got to get this done by tomorrow afternoon like go go go I was right there with them right I mean we all did it together but there was um it really did to me anyway you know for for in my in and only my experience I can just say it really felt like it was very very important to acknowledge the extreme human side of what was going on um in March and April in particular and then obviously um this summer as well so it's just I mean we just can't those separations as you were talking about Adrienne just they don't exist anymore for anyone and you know I don't think that we could pretend I couldn't pretend that they did you know I'm wondering as you know again in your own journey toward leadership did you have role models was there somebody that you thought oh this is the kind of leader I want to be like or was it more like wow I don't want to be like that guy or you know as you were coming into you know Adrienne mentioned the word authentic as you're coming into a leadership that feels authentic to you as a person you know to get to this moment to be both tough and compassionate and pathetic and authentic you know I guess what what have you learned along the way either in a positive way or sort of as a reaction to something that wasn't so great you know I would say that I've had a lot of really really inspirational leaders and a lot of people that I have worked for that I thought to myself I don't want to do that when I'm I'm a leader I don't admire that and I think one of the things that we were talking somebody mentioned earlier Tony I think it was you said you know somebody not shy to call and ask for their son's best friend to get an internship we've seen that right and the the problem with that is one only certain people have the power to make those calls and have people answer them right and so it reinforces and just sort of and recreates this very very exclusive wheel of power and do it creates a lot of people in power who you know in in my opinion didn't earn it and so what happens when I think you have that kind of dynamic where people have gotten to a job or to a level or not due to their own performance or their own merits and they get very scared about losing that power and then what happens is that they do things and we're seeing it at all levels right now they people do things to stay in power particularly when they they didn't authentically earn it they don't feel like they can authentically keep it they they cheat they use violence they you know they will people will be very very cruel and unfair about retaining that power and so I think it's really important you know for us as women noticing this and something that I mean I've seen both sides I've seen people in power who use it wonderfully and wield it wonderfully we all have and people who don't and I've worked for both of those people and I think you know our job is to get to get that power to earn it to feel confident in it so we're not threatened by it and then we can share it responsibly acknowledge it and reward it reward great performance know if you blend and give it away you know it's not I don't feel threatened in my role because I feel like I earned it here and so I'm happy to give other people I think I am you know I'm happy to give other people power Tony I saw you yeah you know I think it's such a great point and I would say that we need to acknowledge the power that we have in any given moment and so I'll give an example that for me when I first moved to Chicago and knew next to no one I was on the faculty at Notre Dame and I had this asset that I didn't realize that was such a big deal and that was season tickets to Notre Dame football and so you know so one of the things that I did early on is that I offered people because I couldn't go to every game I offered people that I knew you know my tickets which were on the 50 yard line and eventually that sort of was a return investment where I will tell you that one of the people who couldn't even take the tickets then invited me to a very small fundraising event where I met the new governor of the state of Illinois which led to him offering me this job as deputy chief of staff and so you know I think about those kinds of relationships that we're building and that we can make use of and leverage but then I would say that on the flip side to your point Ilana about whether or not you earn it I think we have to do a lot of telegraphing because women also very frequently earn their leadership stripes through what we call the glass cliff right it's that you get this great opportunity to lead but that it's full of all sorts of pitfalls one of my favorite examples a phenomenal female leader is Deb Caparo the CEO of Ventus and when she was offered that CEO role in 1999 Ventus had one customer on the brink of bankruptcy they had a fraud investigation for Medicare they were leveraged in loans it was a hot mess and she you know of course was then presented with this you know opportunity but she seized it and she turned it around and now it's like valued at you know 34 billion dollars but I think that that's that's a tricky scenario I'm not necessarily advocating for it but I do think that when we are placed in those problematic scenarios you have to telegraph that yes I'm here and this is what we're up against and you can't say it enough when I came into my last role I mean reducing violence in the city of Chicago imagine that is something that you get done in any sort of short period of time you just have to keep telegraphing what the situation is and what you're up against so that you're not set up for false expectations and to be framed outside of what your performance really is you know at this point Laura I want to bring you back in you know you've written you recently wrote a piece for Bloomberg and I would suggest anybody read it it's a move beyond the business case for diversity and you talk about the moral argument and one of the things when we were talking earlier that really struck me in what we were saying you know to Tony's point when we talk about some women leaders they're unicorns they're like super duper exceptional and how many women's leadership conferences have we gone to where somebody gets on stage and they're so unbelievable it's like they've got a halo and they float on cloud nine and you think wow how how could I ever do that so we've kind of got this narrative that you have to be super exceptional to be a woman and particularly a woman of color to lead you know we talk about well we need to fix women you got to be more like that you super unicorn yeah and and one of the things that you you said that so struck me it's like we never talk about fixing the system and how it benefits by keeping women and people of color where they are so can you talk about that flip you know sort of like how we the sort of the moral argument and how we need to begin to reframe how we even think about leadership yeah there are a number of different ways that we call into question of the business case for diversity and inclusion right now and they're really coming to a peak in 2020 you know I think about what Alana was saying in terms of everybody linking arms and just doing what felt like the right thing to do to be in support of one another because everyone experienced the crisis that was facing all of us well look at us several months later people are not extending that same level of grace to one another at this point even though kids are going back to school and the vast majority of them are not physically out of their homes for the majority of the time so we're reworking home and work life tremendously but we don't have that same level of compassion and grace and moral concern dominating our decisions about work and equity and what we think is a justifiable or fair level of commitment and engagement right now the other issue here which is a long-standing structural issue around the business case is that we want a big payoff for a very little investment now if you ask any you know financial analyst I think well what are the odds that if I put in a dollar a day that I'm going to be a millionaire in a year little slim to none right but this is how we treat our diversity equity and inclusion initiatives we think we put a drop in the bucket and then our standards and our expectations or our criteria for success are so high that it's hard over time you know year over year to justify the minimal cost that we're putting in so you you're looking to see a growth in critical mass but you're not really taking the time effort and energy to invest in it why aren't we investing in it more heavily Bridget because the status quo continues to benefit those who are already in power and they don't have the instrumental motivation to do something different in changing that structure and that system it's only the moral argument that brings out the questions around compassion equity and grace that will motivate people to transform a system that is in fact working to keep them and their children and their kids best friends kids in power yeah you know and it's so interesting that that system maintains so much power when there's so much research Adrienne you know you mentioned some of the research that has been done over and over and over again proving the benefits of equity and diversity particularly in leadership roles from the economic case the business case competitive advantage productivity you know over and over again and that we don't seem to listen to it I think it's it really bears that that needs to be part of the conversation why are we not listening to this research but you know at this point I really wanted to bring in we've got a question from the participants so if can we bring Nancy Jensen in to ask her question and then Adrienne I'm going to ask you to to kick it off and then if other panelists have have have something to add hi I'm Collin in from the west coast thank you for doing this you've alluded to women leaders multitasking at warp speed during the pandemic I think we're I'm right there with you can you address how to recalibrate corporate expectations of what's realistic in this new environment I feel like what Laura was just saying is so on the money they're like what we're letting you stay home isn't that what you wanted and meanwhile there's no allowance given for the multiple competing demands that are taking place right now that's a great question and I think that you know from a corporate perspective a workforce management perspective I think there's a lot of benefits and programming and other things that especially larger organizations have done to support their employees during this time but I think the answer is really if you're a leader in an organization and you run a team you need to know what's happening with the people on your team and have that personal connection and relationship and I have people on my team who have small children as I do and both spouses are trying to work and to do virtual school at the same time and I know that my expectations around when they can be on a zoom meeting and when they can do a rush assignment and all of the rest of it is just different because we're in this moment that they are and I know what virtual school looks like it's a disaster and you know that they have these obligations at home and there's going to be a different level of responsiveness I also have people on my team who are younger who are living alone in their apartment in Boston or New York and have nothing else to do frankly and so you know I think that the expectations are just you just have to know what each individual person is up against in their in their entire life right and have a in a 360 view of what's going on with each individual employee I think is really the only way to manage it unfortunately which is you know takes a lot of investment in relationship with all of the folks who are who are in your team so at this point I can't believe that we're already at time I feel like we could talk for hours more I don't want to hang up the you know in this conversation but let me do this and Alana will start with you if you could each what I had asked you to do is think of one big idea that we can you know that we can that you can share that we could really that would help move the needle to bring more diversity and equity and particularly gender equity into leadership I know that's a big ask but if you could keep it really short Alana I'd love to start with you what was one thing that that people should be thinking about doing yeah I mean I think this is something we talked about already but from what's worked really well for me is being very very clear and direct about what I want and saying this is what I would like this is what I think I I deserve I want this title I want this raise I want this team I want this responsibility and you know backing that up I think with work and performance to to feel like I was asking and I deserved it but I do think there's a very strong sense that people will you know if we work hard and heads down and just do a good job people will notice and I don't think that's actually how power gets transmitted and I don't think anybody is looking to give power away to anybody else and so we have to sort of elbow our way in to get it I love that even though the Microsoft CEO that's exactly the advice he gave people keep your head down and do do your work which doesn't seem to work for women Tony what's your big idea you know I like to focus on accountability and I would say that we really must make a bigger effort to change the corporate culture norms I have seen examples in companies when they want to get something done they get it done and so that for instance if you want all of your your employees to take a vacation if they don't all take the vacation time the managers dinged you know at their performance review if you want to have reasonable working hours the last person to leave has to be the manager then you know what I mean then you're not going to have sort of like you know the analyst in until midnight and so we know that there's real processes that we can put in place for accountability and so we can't be disingenuous about it let's make it happen I love that Laura what your one big idea I know you've probably got a million but just one oh well what's on my heart this week is just the the need to affirm and validate humanity the worth and dignity of human life who we are in community we are not here on this planet or in these organizations to be the object of someone else's industry or exploitation or power grab but we're here to all have our experiences of being valued contributors to help our organizations and societies be the very best that they can and ironically during this pandemic in of um COVID-19 as well as racial injustice it just feels like that common concern for humanity keeps slipping off the radar so I would love for us to hold that up today as one big idea okay great Adrienne final final thoughts I think this is a moment for innovation and the you know the card table of corporate life has just been flipped upside down and we are doing nothing the same as we used to before and we have some additional time I think left on the clock here so I don't want us to waste the next six months or a year or whatever it is and to really think about what about this is better and what about do we want to change about what a good leader looks like a good worker looks like and how we can all be more effective and productive both at home and at work all right I love that thank you all so much I would like to thank the amazing panel today for sharing your experiences and your wisdom other thank you so much to the participants for listening in I'd also like to thank the new America events team the better life lab team our producer David Shulman remember we'll be we'll be off for a few weeks like everyone else we need a break but we'll be back with an episode in early October where we'll be looking at the issue of care and how it's shaping the 2020 election paid and unpaid care and in the meantime I hope everyone stays safe wash your hands wear a mask and we'll see you soon