 I used three fingers. I don't know if you have that anyway. Fine. Great. OK. Well, we are here for the last talk of today, and it gives me great pleasure to introduce John Cleary. Now, John Cleary teaches languages. He's in the language department, rather, at the University of Scotland, namely, the Harriet Watt University in Scotland, and has previously taught in colleges and university in Germany, Japan, Malaysia, and the UK. He's been involved in educational development projects on teaching modern European languages for some time, and that has led him to travel widely in Eastern Europe and Central Asia. And in a previous life, he also worked in a museum and wrote a history of the people who had built and inhabited medieval arms houses. Now, today, John is going to talk to us about how you can use your YDNA over and above just getting the results and looking at your matches. So he's going to talk to us about a variety of different types of projects you can join, like CERNAM projects, Geographic projects, Haplogroup projects, and Heritage projects. And his particular Heritage project that he's working on is of great interest to me personally as well. So it gives me great pleasure to introduce to you John Cleary. Thank you very much, Morris, and thank you all for coming to listen to me today. Can you hear me in the back? Yeah, just check. I'm going to turn the view off. I'll turn you on. There we go. Thank you. Oh, yes, I can hear myself now. And I'd like to say I've heard some very interesting talks today, and in particular, I'm devastated to learn that my CERNAM Cleary, or Cleary, is not the oldest CERNAM in Europe, which I believed it was, and I've had my illusions shattered today, but it's always good to learn new things. I'm going to talk about CERNAM today, not from the perspective of CERNAM research, but how to put together a CERNAM project. And I'm going to talk, as Morris said, first about projects, how you can use the various types of projects to enhance why DNA testing results. And I'm going to specifically talk about why DNA. So I'm not going to touch on mitochondrial DNA or on family finder tests today. And then I'll talk about a particular example, which is a CERNAM project, which I've been involved in, which is this CERNAM here, KEMP, which as I said in my blur post online, is a very good Irish name. And I think it's as good as any other Irish name for reasons I'll explain as we go on. It doesn't have any 17th century genealogies. However, it is a name very much linked to the farmers of carven, which we heard about earlier as well. So this talk is going to be aimed really at people who have done why DNA testing and would like to learn more about how these projects organize themselves, what they can offer to you, and how to enhance value from test results that you've got. If you haven't done why DNA testing yet, you may find this of interest to help you think about what it may offer you. And of course, some of you know with our experience administrators and will know the basics already, but I hope you'll gain something from my discussion of the CERNAM project when I come on to that later. So as more I said, I'm going to talk about a brief of the four types of projects, but I will give examples of one CERNAM project and one heritage project. I'm a co-administrator of the CERNAM project here, which is run by a colleague of mine, Andrew Kemp, in Australia. And I'll talk about the Scottish Dunbar Prisoners project, which I am the administrator of. So I'm sure most of you are very familiar with why chromosome testing, but I was very, very quickly through what it's all about just in case anybody is new to this. As you know, the Y chromosome is one of the 46 chromosomes. And it's this little fellow here, a stubby little fellow right at the end, which has only really one major function, which is to make you a man. If you have one, you're a man, although I think not always in 100% of cases, but let this not go there. However, the Y chromosome is passed on from father to son in a direct line, all the damn generations, changing slightly here and there as it goes, which makes it a very, very ideal tool for tracking the spread of CERNAMs. Again, the Y chromosome and CERNAMs will not always go hand in hand in ways that do make interesting findings of people who take tests. Many of us will have discovered that we're not descended from the people we thought we were. I certainly did, and many others of you also have found that probably. So here is the direct male descent. And of course, it's clear that it can only tell us about one line of our ancestors and says very little about all the others. So I'll give the usual caveat when I'm talking here about who is related to whom I am talking about specifically in this direct male line. So of course, we can be related to people through other lines, which are equally valid and equally important. But today, I'm focusing on that direct male line that carries a surname. And the markers we're talking about, again, I'm sure most of you are familiar with this, but just very briefly, the markers we're talking about are points on the Y chromosome, which in the case of the STR markers, the ones commonly used for CERNAM studies, are repeating patterns that repeat themselves a certain number of times at a point on the Y chromosome. And all these marker labels are the names of these repeating patterns. And when you find yourself looking at your results, you'll get something like this if you test with Family Tree DNA, in which all these positions on the Y chromosome are listed. And the numbers of the repeating patterns are then given. And these are your results. And of course, as most of you will know, these numbers of repeating patterns can change slightly as we go down the generations. And these are the changes that we're interested in. So here, this happened to be my results. I have 12 here on this marker. If somebody else has 11, then we have a genetic distance of 1, because we have one point of difference between us. And so again, I'll be talking about genetic distance later on. And that's essentially all it means. So the project I'm going to talk about then. I'm going to talk about four types of projects. The most common one that most people are familiar with are the CERNAM projects. These are the ones in which people who have the same CERNAM, usually, will join and will compare their results to see if they are related. And if their CERNAM stems from one or a small number of common ancestors at some stage in the past. Then of course, there are the haplogroup projects, which again I'll be talking about. And the CERNAM project, I will give as example, is developing as an interaction at the moment between a CERNAM project and a haplogroup project. I think these are very important. They are often thought to track deep ancestry and migration patterns, and they do very well. But they increasingly becoming, I think, really important as the science of DNA testing evolves for people who are researching CERNAMs and genealogy as well. And we're finding that the people actually looking at are in the haplogroup R1A, which is not the most common one in Ireland, as many of you will know. And R1A came out of Eastern Europe thousands of years in the past. But we're now finding that some of the markers we're finding in our group are taking us into the genealogical period, period, and are helping us to answer genealogical questions. It's also true that the administrators of the successful active haplogroup projects are generally great experts on their haplogroup and on the process of DNA testing and can give some of the best advice about how to proceed with further testing. So I always recommend people to join a haplogroup project as well as a CERNAM project. There are geographical projects. I'm the co-administrator of the Scottish DNA project. And the last one I'm going to look at will be what I call the heritage project. I think it's a good label. And there are fewer of these. I think it's a newer type of project. But it's something that I think is developing and will be very interesting. I think the people researching not just genealogy, but other kinds of local and community history in the future. So take us through these then. And this is a quick summary of the four types. I'm going to begin by whizzing through some of these haplogroup project then. As I said, is originally looking at the patterns of DNA within one haplogroup. The haplogroups being these deep ancestral descendancy clusters of people who descend from somebody who had a single mutation thousands of years ago, which are still identifiable as we pass down to their modern descendants. And many of these occurred in the prehistoric period when the human race was spread much more thinly across the planet. And therefore some of these become defining of people's movements and migrations across Africa, Asia, Europe and into the Americas. As I suggested, however, these haplogroup projects are also offering people who are researching more recent genealogy a lot these days. This is our surname project for Ken Visible in the R1A haplogroup project, where it's being linked with a number of other surnames, which I'll be talking about in the course of the talk. And the R1A project I think is actually one of the best going because the administrators have been very active and dedicated and quick to analyze new results as they're coming through. And they've been continually extending the descendancy tree of R1A right from the top down to a number of subclades, subgroups, which are coming much more recent in time. This is taking us down to around about zero, the year zero AD. And so they're tracking particular R1A patterns through Europe, Scandinavia, Eastern Europe. And they're now also putting all of these forward in time to ways that are very, very useful for people who are tracking their own family history. Geographical projects are a little bit different. They tend to be very large as do surname projects. And I have to say at the moment, I am wondering many ways what we offer that's different in the Scottish DNA project was different from the haplogroup projects. But there are some specific functions. For example, it helps to profile the DNA patterns of a nation or a region or a county. And this may be useful if you want to find out where a migration began from. Many people are doing DNA because they want to find out where their ancestors came from across Atlantic or where they originated from in the old world. And therefore having an understanding of the localized patterns of DNA can help people to track down where their ancestors may have originated from. I'm working with somebody at the moment who is looking at a particular pattern that looks Scottish. But the answers as he knows about are Welsh and from Norfolk and from nowhere near Scotland. But however, the signature is looking at is Scottish and so he's working on how this may be explained. And again, the local patterns of Scottish DNA can be useful there for him. Also, many people are strays. There are people who do DNA testing and find they haven't got very many matches. I'm one. I did DNA testing up to 111 markers and I have no matches at all at any level. Except one at 25. Natural fact, I do really because the one at 25 doesn't match me at 111 at about 15 or 16. It's not really very close, but close enough to give us something of interest. But when I look to my DNA results at first, it was a rather lonely experience. I thought surely the universe is more populated than that. But luckily, the big geographical projects do help people who are in that situation to find people who are not closely matched to them but still may be matching them at a wider range. And again, it gives some clues to them. I'm going to talk a little bit about the heritage projects and this is some of which we're developing which began this year and therefore it's still in a very, very early stage and we're going to hopefully talk more about this over the coming years as we begin to extend it. But I'm looking at and working with some people who are interested in the consequences of the Battle of Dunbar in Scotland in the year 1650. Now, I think there's been a bit of a trend in the moment or fashion for battle projects to develop people who want to know whether they descended from the survivors of Banachburn. For example, I was in major Scottish event which is commemorated this year as we just had the 700th anniversary of it. And this is very similar for very particular reasons. Dunbar is not a very widely known battle. It's not talked about very much in Scotland for the simple reason that the Scots lost this battle. And they shouldn't have. It was a classic case of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory because they had Cromwell's invading army surrounded and Cromwell was on the verge, well, actually began a desperate breakout attempt because he believed he was defeated and somehow turned it round and the Scottish army was defeated heavily. But what we're interested in isn't so much the battle itself and who was there. We're actually more interested in the aftermath. A little bit of details here. Dunbar is in East Lothian. It's on the East Coast of Scotland and Cromwell's army in the summer of 1650 trend up and down the East Coast to Edinburgh and back several times and the Scots refused, very wisely, refused to engage in battle until they made a mistake and finally did it. And so here we have plans of the Red Army here is the English army, which is boxed in in the town of Dunbar and the Scots had a perfect view of the English army from a hilltop and instead of besieging Cromwell they should have done they came down from the mountain and found themselves trapped between the river here and the mountain and became sitting ducks, unfortunately. But what we're really interested in is of the consequences of what happened next because it's believed about 10,000 Scots were taken prisoner in the battle and about half of these died, sorry, half of these were released rather because they were wounded, sick and probably dying and therefore no threats to the English army. The other half were marched, route-marched from out of Scotland into Durham. And again, this was a major breach of contemporary morals of warfare because the English army was invading army and they were marching their prisoners out of the country that they were invading into their own country and Cromwell did this for very pragmatic reasons. He wanted to make sure that these Scots would not reform into another army and threatened him, but the consequence was that the vast majority of these prisoners did die en route. Some of them died of sickness as they went, others died of the flux which is probably dysentery in Durham Cathedral where they're incarcerated and about a month later, only about 1,000 of these, 5,000 prisoners were still alive. Some of them made escapes, but only about 1,000 were still alive and fit and these were ordered to be transported to the colonies. Now some of these may have been Barbadoed in the same way that many Irish prisoners of Cromwell and the restoration period were. Some of them may have gone to Virginia, again to work as indentured laborers. Some were definitely sent to the European wars as mercenaries. Some were sent to Ireland to fight for the English troops in Ireland, although not the Highlanders. There was a specific ban on sending any Highlanders to Ireland because, of course, they spoke the same language and might change sides, but it's not actually known how many, if any, of these orders were actually followed up. There's no records, no weather. Any of the prisoners were sent to Barbados or Virginia. Some probably were, but the colonies in America, Virginia and Maryland in particular were actually also in revolt at the same time because they were supporting the royalist side and therefore it was deemed to be a risk to send these, back by the parliament, to send these prisoners to those colonies and they were held back until the local revolts were put down. But we definitely know that 150 of these prisoners were transported to New England in the winter of 1650 and a year later, further 300 or so of these Scots prisoners from the Battle of Worcester at this time when the royalist army received its final defeat by the parliamentary army, were also transported to New England. And these were then indentured as laborers, as servants in the colonies and worked for seven years as indentured servants. Many of them then settled in the area. So I am touched with many people who descendants or believed descendants of these prisoners were interested in finding out more about the story itself, how they came to be there, how they settle in the American colonies, how many of them made it in the sense of being able to find people to live with, settle with and marry, obviously many of them did raise children, many others probably didn't. I've got to say that these prisoners in New England were probably the fortunate ones because they were transported to a place that was a similar Protestant kind of society and other big differences between the English and the Scots Protestants, but they were similar in outlook. And therefore maybe these prisoners were easily able to settle in and perhaps they survived their indentures. Whereas many of the ones who had gone to Virginia or Barbados, as with many of the transported Irish prisoners sent to the same places, were probably died during the course of their indenture. Anyway, this is some of which we're working on and we're using DNA for part of this. We're also looking for as many contemporary records as we can at the time to try and ascertain the full story as full as possible. And this is the beginning of our DNA bit of the project, at least. And so here we have a number of people who have already finger themselves as descendants of the prisoners. And you recognize some very Scottish names here. We have Hamilton and Bar, Colhoun and Bow, Moody, McCall, Grant and the believe direct male descendants of these prisoners have tested already and we're building a collection of DNA. I'm not going to say much more about this other than say this is something which is ongoing and we're working on this and I hope in the next couple of years to talk more about it as this develops. So the main thing that we're going to talk about today then really is the DNA surname project which I think most of you will be familiar with if you've done your own DNA testing. As in a sense, if you test and you don't put your results into any project or any means of comparing your results with anybody else, there's not much point in doing it. So the DNA surname projects give the best opportunity for comparing your results with others. This is the chem and cam project. There is some evidence that chem and cam are cognate surnames in some cases at least and definitely in cavern which I think is probably down to the cavern accent where if they're saying chem or cam people become a serial which is one of the same. But anyway, having said that the cavern camps are chem, I believe, not chem. But this is a good example of one of the kind of certain projects we heard about earlier in which there's clearly no common ancestor. There's no Mr. Kemp who sired all the chems of the current world. And in fact, many of our lineages are very, very small. I've got a few bigger ones higher up not showing you the R1A. Lineages are quite big. But these are some of the lineages which have emerged. Obviously, these only got two apiece. And down here with a lot of people who've tested and don't actually appear to match anybody with the surname chem or cam. And I think it's a small project. We only have about 100 members. We do need to try and bring more in before we can really say that these people will not find surname matches. But at the moment, it looks like a very varied multi-origin surname. And the project is helping to reveal this. If you have tested and you're not sure about what to do next, I would urge you to join as many projects as you think are relevant to you. I would say that everybody join a surname project of your surname. Try and join the surname projects of people who you match closely with different surnames because there may be a relevant connection there. Join a haplogroup project and take advice from the administrators on how they read your DNA. Join a geographical project because that helps to contribute to profiling DNA in a region. And of course, look out for any heritage projects which may be of interest to you. But join as many as you possibly can. They're free to join and there's no limit on how many you do sign up to. So I'm going to talk then about the surname project which I've been involved in. I'm going to say I've only been involved in genealogy for about two and a half years. I was persuaded by a friend in Scotland to test against my embedded judgment. I imagine I'd learn nothing interesting by doing so and how wrong I was and that's what leads me to be here today. And as well as testing my own name, Cleary, getting not very far because it turns out my ancestry may well not be Cleary. But I'm going to talk about that today. I've also been testing my maternal line. My mother's maiden name was Kemp. And this Kemp from Ireland. Kemp is not a very common surname in Ireland but it's also an interesting surname in the way it appears and is distributed. So I've got to say, by the way, the slide I have here are a bit of a how-to do a surname project. So if you're familiar with this, apologies in advance, but I use this in a different talk and there's talking about how you could set up a small-scale surname project. I'll skip through this one actually. And these are the processes which I went through when I began to investigate the Kemp's account. I was aware of the Kemp's surname project at the time and there were no Irish Kemp's in there at the time. So I began to look for some and recruit some and they can tell you that one of them is sitting in this room today, but I'm not allowed to tell you where he is, but I'm going to say thank you very much, wherever you are, because your DNA helps to spark a very interesting set of discoveries which are still going on. So basically the procedure here then would be to begin by researching your name of interest. So I'm going to say here, after we heard a very interesting talk about how we can really delve into the very deep past of surnames in Ireland. I haven't been doing that to that sort of degree, but I do think it's useful for people who are setting the project to investigate the distribution and more recent history of their surname. And then of course we'll work through finding your candidates, approaching them, persuading, cajoling them to test, organising the finance because we all know that DNA testing doesn't come free. And then of course deciding what we're looking for in the results as they come in. And finally, one that's often overlooked to get back to the genealogy because genetic genealogy doesn't work unless it's done hand in hand with genealogy. So to go within the first stage then, investigating the surname, the name Kemp is an interesting name I think. It's not a especially rare name in Great Britain, although it is a fairly rare name in Ireland. But in Great Britain, it does have this very interesting double distribution. And I cannot say with any confidence whether we can term it an English name or a Scottish name, it may well be a name of separate origins in both countries, or there may well be some shared origins perhaps through Norman ancestry, perhaps through something to do with the East Coast here. But we see there's a very wide distribution in East Anglia and the Southeast of England and a very wide distribution again in Eastern Scotland. And surname dictionaries generally suggest that it's an East Anglian name coming from Anglo-Saxon Kampa, meaning champion or warrior. And that's certainly what Rainey in his dictionary of English surnames suggests. He has citations from the Middle Ages. I've got to say this one here looks rather Norman to me, but maybe I just missed reading the look there, and maybe that's also a really Saxon name. And in Scotland, Black's surnames of Scotland gives a slightly different origin, suggesting that it may actually be Old Norse in origin and suggests that the name Kempty is very widely found in Aberdeenshire and this may reduce to Kemp as well as names often tend to change unpredictably and come together. So two possible suggestions here, it may well be of course that in Scotland it was a name carried in by English settlers, certainly in Orkney, it's very common and the Orcadians believe it's a name there of English origin, not a Scottish origin. So in Ireland then it's much rarer and it's limited to really three or four major pockets. And one of these is Cavern, the one that I've been looking at. Another major pocket is in Cork, at the city of Cork and County Cork here. And there are also Kemp's found in Limerick, it appears to be a Limerick name, and there are Kemp's in Dublin. And the Kemp's in Dublin traced back a long time, they were there in the Middle Ages. So it's been tracked in Dublin at least back to the 15th century. Possibly English traders, they often seem to be mariners, so possibly English traders trading and bring ships into Dublin. And so this gives a very immediate set of questions because one of the questions could be, are these three pockets, obviously, are each of the people related to each other within the pockets, and is each pocket then also related to each other? In other words, do we have a common origin for the name in Ireland, or do we again have multiple origins for the name in Ireland? So Kemp's in Cork carried out their own DNA study some years ago, about 2007. In fact, they wrote to me, because they knew that I was researching the history of the Kemp family in about 2009, and asked me if I'd test DNA, and I scoffed, oh, of course I'm gonna do that. What do I do with that fool? But they went ahead and did their study, and they found five testes, tested them to 37 markers, which at the time was a very suitable number, and they indeed found they matched very closely, this is their results, and you can just about see almost all the 37 markers here, and you see, this is the colourised markers result page, and there's only three differences in all five. Now, five isn't very many, but these branches are all very, very different. They were spread across Britain, Australia, Ireland, and the USA. The English tester, he was one of these, apparently believed he was actually East European Jewish, and had a bit of a surprise, found that really he was Irish. But all these branches, who didn't know that they were related beforehand, came out as being quite closely related, and therefore they went back and did more genealogy, and found a very plausible person to be their most recent, the common ancestor, who married in Cork in 1686. And so they did a very, very neat study. What was interesting for us was it meant that immediately we had something to compare against, and as soon as the first result came in, we could ask whether the cavern camps were also connected to the Cork camp family. Now, do note here that, although family tree DNA have changed the way they display haplogroups, these people are all R1B, which as you know is the most common form of Y DNA in Ireland. Well, were the Cork and cavern camps related, didn't take very long to get a very clear answer that no, they're not, not for at least 20,000 years, because the cavern camps turned out to be R1A, and therefore a completely different family. So it was the first discovery we made, and it also meant we had a fairly distinctive DNA pattern here to compare with further cavern camp tests as we went along. I'm going to say, of course, these are caveats. There could be relationships between these people in other lines. It's quite common, of course, for gentry family to pass on a female surname if this means land remains in a certain line. However, I don't think the cavern camps family, at least as far as I'm aware, I don't think they're ever qualified as gentry. Likewise, there could be an NPE, the famous non-paternal event, but I think the various reasons I've gone along with this, I'm sure that's not the case. I don't, it didn't seem plausible that these two lines can be connected. So we have got two quite separate camp families in Ireland. Now, I know nothing at all about the limerick camps, and I'd like to, and I also know there are camps in Dublin who may have been there for much longer than either of these two. So again, this doesn't capture all of the history of the surname in Ireland, but I think these are two major family groupings that take us a long way to understanding this. So, going back to surname dictionaries, Edwin McLeiser commented on the origin, not so much of the name Kemp, but the name Campbell. I don't know if he has Kemp in his surnames of Ireland. But on Campbell, he said, it's a Scottish name, it's also the name of an Irish sect in Tyrone. It's found in Donnie Gull for Scottish Gallaglass. And down here, he commented, through the little commentators, just through way at the end, the name has even been abbreviated to Kemp and even Kemp in County Cavern. Now, I do not know where McLeiser got that from. So he- You've been chancing as I am, I believe. I think he did, I just speak to the chief held of Ireland about a couple of years ago, and that's more or less what she said, though I think she would have put it more politely. But yes, indeed. There doesn't seem to be any documentary evidence that backs this up. And in actual fact, I don't think he's totally wrong either, because I think there may be something in the origin of this name that may be connected with that Kemp sound, I'll come back to that later, but I don't think the Kemp's are an abbreviated form of Campbell. So I think that doesn't seem likely, although it could well be that we may well be looking at some kind of- My God, what was that? Did I do that? I don't know what happened. Yeah, something exploded. We're also here, are we? Yeah, okay, good. So, at that moment, I shall move on. So the next stage then, we've got to find out our testes. And ideally, we're looking at people who are at least third cousins from each other, if not further, and who have a good genealogical paper trail to take us back to the kind of period where we can begin to piece together a shared relationship if we do, in fact, find one. I've got to say that some of my testes matched this. They had reasonable paper trails back to the 18th century, which isn't bad for Ireland, on the whole. Others, particularly those who descended from migrants to the Americas, tended to know how they, how far they got back to the late 19th century and then it would peter out. But we did actually manage to help one of these go a few generations further back through the DNA results which he found. So this is a little scheme I've got of the way in which the DNA study developed. And these are all the various lines which I was able to pinpoint. It's very small, but it's not necessary to see the names written here. Essentially, each of these is a genealogical line of a family of chems from Cavern. Over here we have a number of people, families who are in Kilishandra Parish. Over here we have some families who are closer to Cavern Town. And here we have a family that I've tracked through older records that stopped. I can't track it any further forward. But it's plausible they could be connected to another family line here, which again is in a central part of Cavern. And definitely appear to be well settled in a sense they have the largest farm of all these families and they seem to be fairly static. They've been there for a long time, close to the name town. So I theorize these may well be the oldest chems in Cavern. Sadly, there are no male descendants in this line, that that's gone. But all the others have managed to track male descendants. We have lines here with people now living in America, in Australia, in Ireland, in Germany, and in Scotland. And many of them were very keen indeed to give their DNA. And at least four of them were Irish, which means that we do have a representative number of people from Ireland to show that this is actually an Irish DNA pattern which we're looking at. So what I'm going to do is try and link these together somehow. I'm not expecting to be able to push them further back in terms of finding names. I want to know whether it's plausible that I can draw lines here that show how they may branch and how they may connect. And here then are the results. This is the results on the results page. And I'm pretty satisfied that what we've kind of found was all of these shared a very similar DNA pattern. And these are the earliest known ancestors for each line we're able to identify from various town lands in County Cavern. And just take a note of that name very briefly. I'll come back to that a bit later. So this is the distribution then of the earliest known ancestors. Again, here's a little cluster around just north of Cavern Town that's Cavern here. This is the line that's died out, which did seem to be, as I said, on the largest farm closest to Cavern Town, and actually also closest to the farm in the States, which might well be where the ancestors of these people first came into the county. And down here we've got a couple in Kilishandra. And there are more families in Kilishandra that haven't yet managed to track, but I'm trying to. And what I haven't done yet, I'm aware of another group of families up here around Coot Hill, which is a little bit further away from the others. But again, they've gone. I can't find any descendants of these, but I think there may be some in Canada. And I'm trying to track these down to extend the scope of the study and see if they're related to. And what I've noticed is that there seems to be a spread out from the parish of Kilmore. And so the farm estates in the 17th and 18th centuries would have been largely in Kilmore and Amageloff parishes around the town of Cavern. And it seems if we have people spreading out this way and spreading out this way, this looks a plausible possible center for where the, if there was, a common ancestor, where they came from. And it's fortunate, indeed, that the oldest surviving parish records in Cavern are also from Kilmore. So we have some to check there. So we decided to go for largely six to seven market tests. Initially, we did a lot of 12 market tests and then upgraded them as we were able to raise finance to cover the tests. And most of our group now gone to six to seven markers. We decided not to go over 111 because we feel we learned enough from the six to seven markers. And we began to look at SNP testing instead. I'm going to say more of that later. And again, I'm not really going to talk about how to do DNA projects here, but I think it's always worth considering when we're setting out on these things how to persuade people to take part. Most of the people I approached were very enthusiastic, I'm glad to say, and very interested in finding out what we're trying to discover. I was turned down by only two people who both represent one line of two brothers. And they're in Australia. And I think it wasn't me who approached them, actually. I think it may be that they didn't quite understand what we're asking, why we're asking to spit into a jug and give it a DNA sample. So I'm going to try them again at some stage, but they are quite important. But most of the people I approached were very, very keen to take part. I wasn't particularly worried about the privacy aspects. Of course, they are very, very important. Again, I'm sure all of you know this. DNA testing is not only for men at all. In fact, the more I find myself involved in this, the more I find that most people who are running wide DNA samples seem to be women researching genealogy who have recruited male relatives to donate the test samples. So it's very much a way to explore surnames and it's not just for one gender. It's for anybody who wishes to investigate this area. So on to the results. So here's our results screen again. And we did believe that we identified a lineage. We believe that all of the chems of cabin are related. Related through the direct male line with a common ancestor at some stage back maybe between roughly 1700 and gone back to about 1300. Now the obvious timing for a name like this and for a common ancestor with that kind of name you would think would be at the time of the plantation. It does look like a Scot's name and these were a Protestant people or a Church of Ireland, most of them, and therefore it's plausible to think that they could have come in the plantation. But I began to find that actually some of the genetic distances I was getting were rather wider than the ones identified in the Cork Kemp study. And which got me rather worried about making an assumption that these will be plantation settlers. For example, I've got one line here which is a Canadian tester and it only matches some of the others in the group at eight out of 67 which is quite a wide distance there and would not be considered by family tree DNA to be a match in fact. That's why it's called a pink. Others of course are very, very close to each other. We've got twos out of 67 here, five. So there's a lot more variability here than there is in the Cork Kemp study. And I suppose there's two ways of looking at this. This might simply reflect random variation. So it may well be that the Cork Kemp descendants didn't change very much and I always did and that's all there is to it. And they may still be of a similar period. On the other hand, maybe this degree of variability is suggesting that this might be an older cluster in the sense that the most recent common ancestor could be further back in time. Now I don't think I can base anything on this except just simply bear that in mind as a possibility. And therefore, I wouldn't say this proves anything doesn't prove that these are not plantation settlers but it does raise a question to me as to whether they could be and actually whether this is a DNA pattern which appeared much earlier in Ireland. One way to test this is to look for similar DNA patterns elsewhere. And if there were plantation settlers, the most likely, most likely place of origin will be Scotland and I'm yet to find anything remotely similar to this DNA pattern in Scotland. Whereas I have found more people who are quite similar to us in Ireland. I'll go on to this shortly. So go back to my little scheme then of my nine lines, nine lines by the way, including the one here in the middle that has become extinct in the male line although I believe there are still descendants of that line. But these are the remaining eight lines then with no male line descendants today. And I believe that we can connect them in this kind of way. So I think we've traced three major subgroups of this and I think these red lines, the red lines here are ones that I feel fairly confident about saying these are related and relatively recently we're probably looking at an 18th century common ancestor for each of these clusters. But each of them are also similar enough to each other to show that at some stage there's a common ancestor back here and maybe, just maybe, it's pointing towards the original kents I found living in Kilmore at the end of the 17th century or maybe the common ancestor will prove me further back but at least what we've learned from this is that there is something to investigate here and what we need to do is to go back and do more of the genealogy to see if we can find evidence that sheds more light on how and when these groups may be related. We promise not to make this too technical but this is a slightly more complex version of the chart again showing the three clusters. So this is the one based around Caventown which is one that eventually leads to me. This is one based around Kilishandra. And this one is the Canadian line. The moment I have only one testee from this line this is the one that was showing the widest genetic distances from all the others and so at the moment I can't tie this one to either of the two groups. It's a group on its own and it's possible that of course if there will be a common ancestor of this and the others, it's quite possible of course that common ancestor could be even further back in time and maybe called something else but somehow both lines began to use the surname Camp and that can't be discounted. These are showing the key STR markers for these people. This is the shared pattern for all three well for these two rather, for these two and these are the key mutations which are marking each of these lines. So as I suggested the final stage in this it's a cycle of processes that go back to the genealogy and look for more paper evidence and so now we have a possible theory that we may be looking for a common ancestor living maybe in the late 16th, early 17th centuries we can go back and look and see if we can find any sign of him. As I mentioned Kilmore then has the oldest records in Cavern, church records in Cavern and seems to be the place where this family first appears if only because that's where the oldest records are and if we look at the marriages register for Kilmore on the very first page down here we find 1702, James Gray marries Jane Kemp that's the first entry in the register for the Kilmore marriages and three years later Jane's sister well I assume it's Jane's sister Sarah also marries the 1705 I can probably assume their sisters unfortunately the register doesn't give the name of their father, of either parents but in the name of the father we'd have a candidate for our most recent common ancestor so we can surmise that these two sisters were probably born around 1680 and the father therefore born between 1630 and 1655 and therefore we pin point the generation where this family may have arrived in Cavern there are lists, quite good lists of soldiers mustered in Cavern in the early plantation in the 1620s and there are no Kemp's on there so it does seem to be a reasonable supposition that they arrived after the end of the Confederates War in the 1650s so we could see someone being granted land maybe there's a reward for what he did for the winning side in the Confederate and Civil Wars and that could be a time when the Kemp's arrive maybe as privileged or protected tenants of the Farnons in Cavern interestingly there is a will in the National Archives which is one of the few surviving 17th century wills of a man named Nicholas Kempston and Kempston was a Cromwellian general he was one of the inquisitors of the 1641 1641 depositions and he was also a Quaker and Kempston was given land in Cavern and he also used the land, he warded the land to Irish Quakers to protect them when the Quakers were facing persecution now I don't believe, I don't believe a minute Kempston will be the person looking for but it could well be that someone under Kempston's protection may be that there could be a connection there unfortunately I can't see the will I went to the National Archives in April had a look at it and they came up to me and said oh sorry we've lost it it's in there somewhere, we don't know where it is so I'm hoping that they'll be able to find it at some stage because it is one of the obviously very rare thing a 17th century surviving will in Ireland is a very rare thing so hopefully they'll find that for us at some stage so this is a little summary there of what I was saying about Jane Kemp being the first identifiable person as family in Cavern so where did Kemp's come from before they were Irish? well they're going to be on the last stage of the talk now very briefly talk about where we're leading, where it's going we don't really know but I have a little clue here about where I think the Kemp's did come from before they were Irish I'm not convinced they were Scots they may have been but I think there's evidence here that we I think we're covering evidence here of possibly a surname or Scandinavian origin linking with several other surnames of Scandinavian origin which may be of Irish origin itself so I mentioned in early 2013 we found a match with a man whose surname was different but told us that his ancestors were called Kempton now I assumed immediately this was probably going to be a mistake of some kind because maybe the name's changed maybe the tongue was added as his ancestor moved around Ireland but natural fact there is a Kempton series of families or a set of families in Tyrone and Derry and they're settled along the Bell and Derry River and farming on both the Derry and Tyrone sides of the river and they are about as large as the Kemp's or Cavern they're in the Griffith's server you can see about seven or eight of these families about the same number roughly as there are of the Kemp's so these do seem to be quite independent families it's always possible of course that someone may have moved between the two we haven't tested any more Kemptons yet it does look as if we're finding a family with a similar name and a similar DNA profile again someone to investigate here which is suggesting that we're not just looking at one single point of origin one single most recent common ancestor but maybe something more complex and going beyond that the matches of many of the people in our group are showing again very regular patterns and some very familiar, very similar surnames are appearing in each of these there are men named Cummings or Cummins are regularly coming up as matches for people all the way across our group and whenever they know that most of these are actually American, one English, most American whenever they know their point of origin in the old world it is always Northern Ireland and Tyrone seems to be the place that they are, they're leading to we've found an extended family called Jacobs and these are all in America they're all descendants of one man with good paper trails tracking back to an indentured servant named John Jacob who settled in Virginia by 1665 and other names appear such as Anderson, Small, Adams, Gibson, Bennett and Taylor all great Irish names of course but the public section of Jacobs these are all quite common names in Northern Ireland and you may say they're of British origin I think they probably are mostly but again, I can't be sure whether any of these are largely Scottish names in origin or English names in origin they're all found in both Scotland and England and therefore I'm still not seeing any really strong signal as to whether this group of people assuming they're all related came to Northern Ireland from either Scotland or England so we're still not really clear on that we've come up with an acronym for this group because we have I'm sorry I'm going to lower the tone here I'm afraid we have Jacobs, Anderson, Cummings, Kemp, Kempton and Small so we have the Jacks I must apologize this stage I did not come up with this acronym myself this is thought of by one of our American co-researchers and when I explained the quotations of the Jacks in Ireland he thought it was other areas so we are now the Jacks group officially even though there are other surnames we have Bennett and Taylor they don't fit quite so well into the acronym but we're getting some patterns here whenever the place of origin is known it is always Ulster many of the members don't know where their ancestors came from if they left Ireland but when they do it's always pointing to Ulster I have not been able to find signs really of this in either Scotland or England not close enough to confidently feel that we're finding a shared origin there is, I've recently something matching this person called Connell has approached me and she believes her ancestor came from the Isle of Butte in Scotland that could be the first sign of the Scottish connection but equally she believes that her ancestor may be an Irish immigrant into Butte so that's not really taking us further forward but we identified this group because they're all R1A they're all in the subgroup of R1A called L448 if you're familiar with the SNPs this is the defining marker of the so-called Young Scandinavian group and all of them have this very distinctive marker DYS447 there's an STR marker with a value of 21 and this is very rare it's rare generally across most Apple groups and in R1A it's only found in 1% or less of R1A testes so when we're finding all these factors together plus one or two other fairly rare markers we can be pretty sure we're finding a signature of common descent and because the more people we add to this the more variability we get in the group as a whole the more we need to push back the likely days of the most recent common ancestor and because all of these seem to be associated with Ireland it's looking more and more likely that whoever that most recent common ancestor is he will have been someone either in Ireland or whose descendants moved to Ireland leaving none behind in Scotland or England or wherever so back to the R1A chart as I said this is in R1A we have down here the northwest European flavour of R1A and here is L448 which is often known as the Young Scandinavian subclade this is a marker called CTS4179 if you're bamboozled by these numbers don't worry about them they're essentially just catalogue numbers for known mutations but these are defining mutations of groups that have been analysed further so this one is associated with Scotland so this is a Scottish line but we are finding the KEMPS and the others are coming into this line here YP355 and this year we've been doing some testing with the YSEC company on specific individual SNPs these are new SNPs which have been discovered this year and are leading us to refine further how the JAX group might relate to this overall group so looking more closely at the you know that's the Scandinavian subclade looking more closely at this it's blowing up for you so you can see it more clearly and I'd like to thank the R1A project this excellent chart which they keep up to date as they discover new markers so this is the YP355 which we discovered just this year is parallel to the Scots CTS4179 and the JAX are down here so we're here actually but in between of course are lots of other mutations which we are discovering at the moment can we be sure that the JAX are definitely a coherent subclade given the distinctive markers which they have and this is a tree which I ran a few months ago using a software package called Philip or Phylip, not quite sure using the R1A modal results as the root and running through all the JAX to see what kind of patterns they throw up there's only the 67 market testes but we can see here this are the Jacobs and most of the Jacobs are coming off a single branch which is coherence with their known single ancestor these here are the Kemp's these are the Kavan Kemp's here again coming off a single branch quite close to the Jacobs on this data anyway this is the Kavan Kemp that's going off on a different line possibly further away from the others and here we see the Cummins and what's interesting about the Cummins is they're showing much more variability between themselves and with all the others than we and the Jacobs groups are possibly maybe indicating that we may have a more recent common ancestor of our sub trees whereas the Cummins perhaps stretch further back in time now I'm mindful of what McLeish said about the origin of the Kemp name attributing it to a corruption of Campbell maybe it's a corruption of Cummings perhaps that might be the ultimate origin maybe that's what we're looking for again very much speculation but this is leading a certain direction and while I wouldn't again put too much weight on this tree there's a lot of data not included in this I am sort of caught by the range of variability and the Cummins' lines generally don't know each other they're not people who are able to easily in touch with their third, fourth cousins because they disperse quite widely so their common ancestor is indeed likely to be a lot further back in time and maybe, just maybe will be the common ancestor of all of us I'm going to do my time, almost time to finish so this is the, come back to the R1A project we've got this far because the R1A administrators have been helping us greatly recommending SNPs to test and keeping us at the date with new SNPs that have been discovered and two people, Cummins and Taylor have already done the big Y test and we have the results just coming through in the past two weeks and the R1A people have already updated their charts to show new SNP descendancy lines here and we were planning to do a Kemp big Y test fairly soon at the next sale in fact but I thought I heard some of the days say that the big Y is no more you know, I'll find out more about that later oh no, there's an extra one there's an extra one, so the big Y continues, okay continues but there's a deep played R being introduced which will be an additional to the big Y additional to the big Y just focusing on the R haplogroups ah, alright, which would be good, that's of course since we're an R haplogroup, yeah okay, so this is the way it's shaping up the, here's the young son of the Navy and that's the one we tested earlier this year and the Cummins Big Y has identified that there are two new, two more SNPs which they knew about and thought were only Scandinavian or larger Scandinavian and they've popped up in our line as well and we'd be pretty sure that all the Jacks will have these at least the R1A administrators are and we know that within the Jacks group there is a division because we've tested for a recent SNP again discovered this year called PF4661 again don't worry about that alphabet soup it's just a SNP that turns out the Cummins and the Tailors have and the Kemp's don't have and we believe they haven't tested yet trying to, the Jacobs and the Smalls also will not have so we have a division here and what this means is we're now moving over some dates here showing the proximate ages of these SNPs we're now moving into a genealogical time so this SNP here without doubt will be within what we make called genealogical time or the time and surnames were commonly used was often thought to be about 1300 I've used the conventional English date here but I think we heard from Kathy Swift's talk earlier that more or less holds for island 2 I think and so PF4661 is a division in the Jacks group without doubt since then so we're now seeing how the Habla Group projects are discovering information which is useful very very useful indeed to genealogical research and they're going to assist the two big white testers with analyzing their results further to uncover more mutations between here and here and we know there are some more that Cummins and Tailor have that they don't share so there are more that one has but not the other which are suggesting that they will also distinguish a branch within here and we want at some stage to test some of these here to see what we can find here so these are now becoming markers of great relevance to people who are doing family history research rather than looking at ancient migratory patterns I'd like to finish by saying that of course there are many many good books on the subject and you've just been hearing from Emily Oliciano and her excellent book on how to do DNA research and these are two books Debbie Kennett's surnames handbook and the surnames DNA family history by Redmond's King and David Haye which I found very very useful when I started to help me work out how to approach researching a surname and how DNA can help what DNA can do and what DNA can't do so I very much recommend these the last thing I was saying really is all that I've given you is very much a work in progress we're discovering new things as we go fat yes I was going to shoot it yes so I'm trying to make this Macintosh thing work which would have slide it there but I feel complete technology on numpty here and I'll see this email today from Mr Cummings which shouldn't show his name you should never mind you see you see me now about his big Y and he told me that that yes he told me the matches he has and his big Y and he's telling me the surnames that he's matching with Taylor who we know that's part of our group but also a range of the names here some of them I'm going to use this thing now because I know it better some of them are definitely Scandinavian names Matts and Hedberg Beckervolt Ostrain I think a lot of Scandinavian names here and whenever we find close matches that are not Northern Irish they're almost always Norwegian and Swedish a couple more Northern Irish branches here or there's an Or family from Northern Ireland who are not if I go back to my oh god sorry Maurice yes I go back to what I'll do is I'll just I'll go very back to my chart which is at the very end isn't it yes there we go we've got back to my chart we know that the Ores and the Northern Irish family Tucker's an English family are coming down this line parallel to where we are but not very closely related and as you see many of the other names Henderson is a Scottish and I do believe the Scottish family or other but the others again are very much Scandinavian so it does seem that whenever we see close connections to our DNA pattern they're Scandinavian not Scottish or British now of course it could be that there are Scots and English who haven't tested yet and we'll find out more of this as we go along but I think we're looking at something that it seems to be an Irish linear chair a set of surnames which which are not necessarily Irish in origin but it looks to me as if the people who bear those surnames may have been in Ireland for a very very long time indeed so thank you very much for listening and if anyone's got a question they'll be glad to answer any time questions no absolutely yes we have one question down here with Patrick thanks well first of all marvelous presentation and I'll leave that to Morris and there are Kemp's in Linnwick I've been there for in 1974, 75, in 56 and I'm aware of the name and I'd have been anywhere at Kemp's thank you I also know that there are theories in Linnwick but CLE or Y and CLE or Y but the commons currently there's Senator Collins in the upper house and he's also the leader of the Senator sorry I just said about commons CUMM INS Senator Collins is the leader of the upper house even at the moment and you could certainly mention my name to him I've been in the Senate for 12 years I would be delighted to help you thank you you're obviously applying grace in Genoesee and vision and everything or bigger may I say but in relation to the Kemp are the commons and as I said the Kerry we'd be delighted to help thank you very much for that yeah having to investigate I didn't talk about the Cleary line very much I found that my I do have a very firm pay material back to the 18th century and my closest matches are called Gorman so at some stage some things happen I'm not quite sure what yeah but so thanks for that Gerard yeah on the genographic project it was held in May I detested over 100 people and the results showed R and B empty to do about 88% they attribute to Gaelic I too they attribute to Mesolithic and Ormonee the 5% they attribute to Viking right and I think most of the Ormonee in Ireland and speed attributed to Viking so I think your conclusions are probably correct the second theory is a very interesting name you know Mike Cleary the author of the Islands of Ireland yeah one of the affiliate families and we're we're seeing circumstantial evidence that many of these like the McFerrish McEagans and so on support is somehow related so that would be an interesting project to do sort of search yeah thank you yeah it will be I think that there's actually actually an O'Cleary project which I'm a member of and again it's a very modal origin name would appear yeah yeah yeah sorry Cathy yeah yeah yeah all right well now the point I was just going to make Klerach is simply the Irish word for a churchman yes so it's a profession name and it's extremely common so it's very unlikely you'll get a very strong connection between the various O'Cleary's and in fact you'll probably get a lot of connections between yes which is the English equivalent yes indeed yes thank you do you have anybody from Spando Ballet in your Kemp project Gary Kemp and Steve Kemp I've thought about that there's also Ross Kemp the former EastEnders actor yeah I think we should send letters off to all the celebrities with the name of Subbing and saying we'd like to donate to the United States absolutely anybody else has that have any questions yes we have one here thanks it's just related to something you mentioned in a Strays I've had a male relative test as well and there have only been two matches and they're at a distance a genetic distance of seven despite having a very common surname which is Murphy and I'm just wondering in view of the surname projects is there anywhere to go with it is there anything more to do I think you'd definitely join your surname projects and I've done that yeah if you presumably the matches are also called Murphy are they that you no they're not or of course something else completely different meaning nothing at all and I have you know reasonable records back to the on that line back to the late 1700s so I think some opposition to my my uncleary line I didn't go into any detail about this but my main match is called Gorman and there are several Gormans I match to no clears at all so that would appear to be where we're looking and I do have a very firm genealogy paper trail back to someone who lived it was born about 1760 however I know that one of the people in that line lived next door was actually a tenant of a man called David O'Gorman in Tipperary in the middle 19th century so I think there's a little smoking gun there yeah and you may find something similar yourself yeah the surname seems to be from a different part of the war and all together but well that's not exciting actually I really want to investigate how that came about maybe she traveled yes it's not too unusual I have a carol that doesn't have any matches of 37 and you'd think that a name like a carol would have lots of of matches but and even with it's in the all would be hapler group it is not uncommon to find somebody who is all would be that has absolutely no matches because they're very distant from everybody else so any other questions we have a question here at the back yes I noticed on your presentation page you have a name downing was there any particular reason for that yes the little word I began with um if I can no I want to do this you wouldn't you wouldn't you wouldn't believe I actually learned to use computers on max would you and then became a pc user and forgot how to use max there we go okay the this word is of my ancestry so these are the surnames in my direct ancestral lines going back so my grandmother was born darling in kildare and so that's my family line mother's land also well we we're from and they would have been from me from government and me and they would also have cousins who married for quite you know it's a little chat they don't nothing nothing belly button here great grandparents so you know they're a very strong darling connection we have that little chat at the end of that case yeah okay thank you and any any more questions any other questions at all one question yeah yeah um would you recommend joining uh surname groups for people that you match in us say yes uh to 67 I certainly would I mean I think a lot often it depends on the particular attitudes of the administrators and I'm a member of the Gorman project the Gorman administrator chased me down before I even even responded to him I found him and he he signed me up to his project straight away other certain administrators tend to want to limit their project to that particular surname it's a choice they make really so it depends on that on their policy but certainly I would write to administrators of surnames that I would die match and approach them to see whether they accept you as a member and then just discuss it with them but yes I would in general because I think I think what we're looking at here are the genetic descent lines and the surnames change as you go down for various reasons and therefore I think limiting a project to only one surname can actually miss a lot of very interesting information was there a particular reason why you chose to go with the 67 that marker test rather than the 111 it was financial was cost it was trying to spread what we had around the largest number of people while also getting the best information and we actually did a couple of 67s initially we then did several 12s to see if those people matched on the first 12 and then when they did we expanded them up we actually had one Kemp who lives in Dublin who didn't match on the 12 and we haven't folded him up but actually I think he's got a very interesting story as well because it turns out his ancestor was an English coast guard who joined the navy then came to Ireland and worked on the ships as a coast guard on the west coast and settled and has got several descendants now in Ireland but because we're looking at the cavern found in particular we expanded anybody who was a 12 up to a 37 and then again to 67 in most cases but I feel that we're not going to learn much more from doing 111s we've got enough to show that it's a very very distinct group I know that some of some of the the Cummins have done 111 and we could do that at some stage but I think there's at the moment no one will need to snip see more more interesting I'm getting ahead ahead a throat cutting signed them back yeah there you're forming yourself through it okay thank you very much thank you for listening let me just thank John Cary Wood last time and say John fabulous fabulous thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you let's try and do let me do it and then we'll take off I hope thanks very much which is not it's fantastic absolutely great let me turn off the recorder there we go yeah